By page 15 of this thread mikoremi is going to be arguing WAR mains alone fixed 1.0 based on the inflation of claims of apparently what WAR mains are doing for the game
Tank mitigation should be balanced to dungeons
Printable View
-
10-25-2023, 08:33 PMSupersnow845
-
10-25-2023, 08:39 PMMikoRemiThat's Paladin's thing. They already have Holy Sheltron at this point and if they're desperate for a super heal, Clemency is an option. Although with how much longer their Requiscat combo is, it makes up for it fine. Also shields are handy when you crunch down a bit. That's just sticking with those skills in particular of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
No need to bring in hyperbole then. It's not a strawman when you say it yourself. Just say it's a good button like normal folk. It's not hard.
Again, tanks are easy to play in general and difficulty is subjective. If you don't like it that's fine, it's when you want to crunch it down is when there's an issue.
Of course it's not specifically, but come now, the timing is just too funny not to bring up and with how the wording is. I wouldn't have been surprised if they changed it but let it cleanse early still to screw DRK's over, but they had the foresight to make sure that wouldn't happen. That's good for the record, but I wasn't expecting them to do that so early~.
I mean personal preference aside, I already had to accept things like party responsibility with skills like Erase/Mana Shift/Diversion/etc. are gone and wasn't as amazing as I loved to believe years ago. Stance dancing was whatever because all WAR was already was just Defiance>Unchained>Tomahawk>Equilibrium>Deliverance>go ham fam. Stacks is always just nicer in regards to ping and not needing to rely on Skill Speed to be stable, and having an actual good Shake it Off is nice, people hated when it was just a group Esuna. In theory it's neat to look backwards but unfortunately people are too lazy to know what Goad or Diversion are, so it had to change. It's much less frustrating now to DF, doubly so when WAR makes it so I don't have to worry about the horrors of PUG's.
Part 1 of 2. -
10-25-2023, 08:40 PMMikoRemi
I bring up SMN primarily because of how much of a jump it was especially in regards to what it brought. WAR now is like...decent DPS but not even the max DPS compared to likes of DRK? Again that's fine, but people make it sound like it's 5% ahead of every tank or something, it gets ridiculous. Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons, Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun. GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.
Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.
Part 2 of 2. -
10-25-2023, 08:46 PMMikoRemiAww I was starting to miss you when you bowed out earlier, welcome back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
1.0 is a whole other beast that hardly any a soul knows, nor wants to know. That has so little relation that it died even. Also gosh darn, if Living Dead is equivalent to an entire other game with that sort of comparison, I don't know what inflation is anymore. Totally nothing like insinuating WAR causing such an imbalance that it somehow imbalances every single piece of content more than any other job in history!
It's unfortunate that the vocal minority won't get it but I've seen some more sensible posts floating around that give some hope. Not like nerfs tend to come in such a fashion from the history so I'm not really sweating, I just want DRK and GNB to wander into Dawntrail with a little more pep in their step. If people would rather try to chain down WAR though, go at it I suppose. I still need to complete Hades, so I'll thank you for the reminder to not waste too much time on such a little thing~. -
10-25-2023, 08:54 PMZairavaI don't care what damage each tank is doing. I want DRK have its own combat identity again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
All this ultimately means is that the healer has to heal more, which is... oh no? I guess? They are the ones who signed up to heal.Quote:
Personal preference if other tanks don't need the healing, DRK of course has really good shields EVENTUALLY that make it harder to take damage...but then people still gasp in horror when they see a DRK in dungeons
Quote:
Dark Mind is still a mess, Dark Missionary comes ungodly late for absolutely no reason, and so on. I mean I'd take Abyssal Drain being on MP cost if I wanted to be lazy, but Blood Price becoming a beast by healing back 50% of the damage and some MP for a sweet boost? Man that sounds really fun.
- Dark mind just needs 10% mit tacked on to it
- Agree on Dark Missionary
- Why not both for Abyssal Drain and Blood Price? I would rather just let Blood Price give MP and Blood Gauge like it did in Stormblood and let Abyssal Drain do the sustaining, though.
GNB honestly doesn't need more healing or mits, it's the most well rounded tank between both sustain and defence currently.Quote:
GNB could still gain some shields during its burst window as well, also make No Mercy longer so everything can fit cleanly, but that means not burdening the healer too much by going combo ham and risking DPS within the small weave windows. Aurora and Heart of Corundum only do so much even if they're...fine.
People complaining about DRK needing help is literally a skill issue, especially after Living Dead got adjusted. Not going to sugarcoat it.Quote:
Of course if you don't want that well, enjoy more threads of DRK needing help, because they'll just keep coming. I'd personally like if they didn't have Inner Release 0.5 or Fell Cleave 0.5, not even WAR's asked for that. That doesn't make healing a taboo though a WAR only sin(you mention copy paste, not me~). For this thread though, I'll just stick with the above plans if they wanted to put in some good stuff for the two tanks.
The literal only things separating DRK from Warrior right now is DRK's defensive kit and the fact its burst is busier. DRK has even less going on in burst downtime then WAR somehow, ironically. -
10-25-2023, 09:47 PMRein_eon_OsborneI'm only bringing up WAR and healing talks briefly because that's exactly the OP wants to see happening to DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
I'm not going to sugarcoat it: that literally screams "I want to unga bunga in dungeon oh so who cares about the enjoyment of that one role which DF forces upon us to have in order to even start the duty!" --- at which point, why are we catering to the folks who refuses to budge in a group content? Let them stay suck, leave duty, vote dismiss, or improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyonaCookie
This reminds me a of post from another forum dweller (same sentiment, but this is going a little bit of tangent here so I'll just /HB it):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avoidy
-
10-25-2023, 11:43 PMHyonaCookieI have seen healers say they'd rather be in a party with a WAR cos then they don't have to heal and can just DPS without care. I have seen them complain whenever they get a DRK in the party and even say they'd rather take a 30min penalty than deal with DRK. I have even seen on other sites such as Twitter and Reddit people saying DRK should be banned from being used in dungeons and we should harrass people out of playing the job. WHy should I care about the feelings of healers when they don't care about mine?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
-
10-25-2023, 11:59 PMRithy255Yeah that's because people don't even know how to heal anymore in dungeon content with the consequences of how warrior is currently designed for dungeons (pld to a certain extent) and how dungeons have become so easy, I really don't get why people would be upset with a decent DRK (outside zot or dead ends, which yeah I can understand might be frustrating if the drk isn't really good, but honestly just be patient at worst you'll wipe once or twice lol),Quote:
Originally Posted by HyonaCookie
The alternative to nerfing warrior in dungeon content is buffing every other tank, which just feels kind of bad to me I dislike how warrior feels as a tank, I don't like the "press one button and heal max" in aoe, I think we need to stop babying healers and a step towards that is making pulls more rougher in general and making sure aoe sustain is very limited (like drks drain which is meh, but alright when it's up in aoe). I want to work together with a big pull instead of just doing 100% of the job for the healer without feeling like im ever in danger -
10-26-2023, 01:39 AMPost
Yo what's hilarious is that DRK used to kick ass at self sustaining in dungeon pulls using the old GCD version of Dark Arts Abyssal Drain. It was never on the level of WAR with Bloodbath for single target, but it was perfectly fine in AoE with Blood Price generating MP to burn on Abyssal Drains.
I would like to see them return to making Dark Arts more versatile again, that was a fun part of DRK. Like drop TBN to level 35 for starters, but when it pops maybe let DRK choose to spend the free Edge or Flood on an Abyssal Drain outside of its cooldown instead, or letting Quietus steal generate big hp like in PvP (and the old Steel Cyclone). That kind of thing.
I guess this wouldn't help healers being pointless in dungeons or all the tanks being overtuned, but it might give some flavor back to DRK's mitigation now that they took everything for role actions in StB but gave it TBN, but then gave every tank TBN but better in ShB/EW. It could be a tank with mitigation combo chains.
Dungeons definitely haven't kept up with tanks, though, even at min ilvl, and especially WAR, so I hope something changes. -
10-26-2023, 10:08 AMSupersnow845
This all comes back to the fact that square is way way too focused on trying to baby healers for no reason and because of it it breeds healers that can’t play the game properly
Because of the horrible design of the modern healers damage is the only thing that matters for healers but since the healers are so easy because square keeps babying them people who aren’t good at the game are drawn to healers, this has the flow on effect of said people liking WAR because they don’t have to try to do DPS because the WAR is it’s own healer, whereas DRK you actually have to be somewhat aware of your kit in order to keep the DRK alive in more spicy pulls
I don’t think bloodwhetting is balanced regardless but 99% of tank mitigation design problems are ultimately healer problems because square has so thoroughly ripped the healer role apart that they are forced to straight up give parts of its job to the other roles in order to maintain some semblance of the holy trinity
Problems with tank design (other than zairava’s point about DRK’s boring and unimaginative combat design) ultimately comes down to how badly healers are designed, square absolutely needs to rethink the way they design healers because 2 expansions worth of bad healer design has now even ruined tank design and is pulling down DPS design (rezz and support tax anyone)
I don’t mean to make a tank thread about healers but besides DRK’s combat design I can’t think of a single tank problem that can’t be fixed by actually fixing healers first -
10-27-2023, 04:11 AMPost
I think if you fixed healers but tanks still played as they are they'd still play way too similarly to each other, and not just with how they deal damage, but how they execute their role itself. It's a problem that the healer role shares.
I actually legit miss things like using Leeches for Berserk, waiting to activate Veil to when I need it, waiting til Blood Price is done to commence Holy stun spam (or the reverse) and considering how best to heal Living Dead (to an extent) BECAUSE there was variety in that stuff that made the roles feel different to play with different groups.
I'm not saying a return of the annoyances is the goal, just that sometimes the annoyances occur because of differences and they're worth putting up with to keep the diversity. -
10-27-2023, 06:59 AMRenathras
The problem isn't "WAR is too good". It's more the Tank Jobs' leveling are all over the place.
WAR gets Raw Intuition in the 50s (56), after which point it has a lot of control over its own health pool. Even before that, its -3 (26), Thrill of Battle (30), and just after Raw Intuition, Equilibrum (58) help it out a lot.
DRK gets the same heal at 26 WAR does, but doesn't get a lot of its heavy tools until later. In the case of Oblation in particular, much later (82).
GNB is overall more middle of the road, and Aurora isn't extremely fast acting and comes at 45, but it also has the -2 of its combo giving it a heal and shield from level 4, which is the earliest healing access any tank has. GNB's mitigation kit is also well balanced, with its personal mitigation not having limits like DRK's does (magic only).
PLD has the strongest mitigation kit, but despite it's motief as holy knight, and contrary to popular belief, is actually the tank that gets its sustain LATEST. PLD's rotation DOES NOT HEAL until level 84 when they get Divine Magic Mastery II. Until then, PLD has no healing in its rotation. None. No HoT, not heal, no barrier outside of Knight's Benediction from Holy Shelltron which...they got 2 levels earlier at 82. Yes, it gets Clemency, but not until level 58 (2 levels before PotD cap), and that requires them to stop their GCD rotation for a damage loss as they GCD heal themselves with it. It's also not AT ALL sustainable until level 64 when they get Divine Magic Mastery (1) that halves the MP cost of all their spells. At that point they can cast 5 Clemencies in a row and refill MP with Riot Blade (1-2 over and over), but before 64, that's 4,000 MP for a single Clemency, which isn't sustainable in any way.
But at 90, the tanks are mostly balanced, even in dungeons. WAR's easy to heal, sure. But so is PLD and GNB. DRK is less easy to heal, but not HARD to heal (oh no! the WHM actually has to cast CURE TWO instead of unstopping Holy/Glarespam?! The HORROR...!), and is still easy to heal if it IS using its mitigation suite correctly. WAR is braindead, but that's what it is/does. PLD and GNB don't have the problems DRK does at 90 dungeons, so clearly it's a DRK problem, not a WAR problem. And the problem is that DRK has more mitigation but doesn't fill its own health pool as much. But how many DRKs are willing to trade TBN or Oblation for Equilibrium? Probably not many, since the place those tools are most useful are Savage and Ultimate raids, which is where WAR is balanced evenly with the other tanks. The damage gap isn't huge (and as others have said, DRK was the uncontested leader from 6.0-6.4 itself due to how well its kit works with downtime and phase transitions).
.
Ultimately, all tanks can deal with dungeons fine. Any that can't are buffed, but everyone can. "But my healer has to actually press a heal button!" is a feature, not a bug. If anything, that should be more common, not less, but 4 man/casual dungeon content "doesn't matter", so it is what it is.
For leveling, the issue is, as I say above, when people are getting abilities, not some horrible imbalance at the level cap. But this is the way most MMOs work these days. They only really care about balancing level cap content. As long as things work "well enough" (and they do) while leveling, it's a back burner issue.
I think we'll sadly never go back to those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
Because the playerbase behaved badly at the time. In the pursuit of the easiest path to rewards, people benched classes and insisted various Jobs were "bad" because they needed to work with others. That's why stuff like Esunaing Berserk went away, and why all the "piercing/slashing/blunt/etc damage up" debuffs went away.
The payerbase just can't be responsible with those things and complains about them endlessly, so the devs don't want the headache of trying to keep them in when min-maxers will complain about them. -
10-27-2023, 08:18 AMSupersnow845
I still haven’t seen anyone actually provide a reason why bloodwhetting needs to be per target rather than per GCD, it’s functionally how it works in raids and it’s also how the healing on holy circle works
Questions around if skills like shake it off and equilibrium are too strong for tank skills or not is a valid discussion but what is the remote justification for bloodwhetting being 4 benedictions on a 30 second CD
Would tank mains be happy if they changed bloodwhetting to once per GCD then gave dark mind Omni mitigation and half the CD of abyssal drain, I still feel like PLD and WAR are too strong from a healer perspective but I also understand tanks in general don’t like being entirely reliant on the healer so it is what it is -
10-27-2023, 10:16 AMKabooaSome of them might say that "War could always do that" from Shadowbringers, or some even cite earlier in Stormblood when they added the 80% lifesteal to to Steel Cyclone while still having access to Bloodbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
They conveniently leave out that Warriors with Nascent Flash had to pool offensive resources to spend into it to achieve good but still lesser healing values than Blood Whetting does now, or that your ability to use Steel Cyclone back to back in Stormblood was dependent on being in Tank Stance which again meant you were giving up offense in order to take advantage of built in sustain.
Not only were these limiting factors, they were exchanging offensive power for the ability to heal. Bloodbath was also an inferior self healing option compared to ShB Nascent Flash and especially double that for Bloodwhetting.
Bloodwhetting is stupid, and it shouldn't have been allowed beyond the first couple weeks of Endwalker. It was a mistake to leave it as it was. Should have ripped that bandage right off. -
11-02-2023, 03:31 AMValknut
My 2 cents on this.
DRK is trash in dungeons, for 2 reasons. LD is something you have to tell the group you are using, or your healer will legit wonder why you're afk. You have to use all your buttons NON-stop to feel like half the tank the other 3 are.
PLD on the other hand. I could remove every mitigation other then holy power shield thingy and my normal rotation will easily keep me alive and easy to heal. God forbid I use rampart and sentinel the healer may as well afk.
The BIGGEST difference I have between DRK and other tanks (maybe not GNB, I dunno I don't play it)
Is I cannot carry a boss fight and heal my party, at all. Ever. When the healer goes down, so do we all. As PLD I'm legit 75% of a healer, and I even have multiple party mitigations to supplement it.
Why would I play DRK in a dungeon then, it is by far my favorite class to play, and the game makes me feel bad for playing it. I can't just go in blind on lower end content like alliance raids or trials. But on PLD I can, and not only live but often Main Tank the fight knowing nothing about it. Its just so much easier and safer to play. -
11-02-2023, 04:13 AMShurrikhanYet, a DRK is also the job that gives me the best ability to prevent sudden deaths in the first place -- apart from maybe Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valknut
Just did an Antlion fight in Expert Roulette an hour or so ago where the healer died to the first round of mechanics and TBN, Oblation, the melee's Bloodbath, and some pots for self were plenty to see us through. -
11-02-2023, 06:02 AMMikoRemiIt's certainly handy but luckily you had melee's to even use Bloodbath. BLM and even SMN would be in a pickle other than Second Wind, same as anyone in the Physical Ranged space. Pots aren't also the most helpful things compared to a Clemency or Nascent Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's just unfortunate that Valknut still speaks true a bit in that DRK is just a bit off point for dungeons compared to the others. Sure, DRK can work some magic but it's a little more tricky than usual, that much is for sure. It's a preference thing though I suppose. -
11-02-2023, 07:28 AMRithy255
Dungeons should be letting tanks pull more, warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy), make dark mind have some physical aspects, give dark knight some slow over time sustain.
I think that would honestly make tanking 10x more fun in dungeons, every dungeon shouldn't really restrict pulls as much as they do currently is the main issue. -
11-02-2023, 08:47 AMMikoRemiEssentially agree other than the non AOE sustain on WAR. Might as well make Melee Bloodbath only heal per GCD, that'll make it real sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Rest though is quite fine. -
11-02-2023, 08:56 AMRithy255AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO, fully healing yourself 4 times in a row in AOE cannot be balanced, unless we reduced the potency which then would make it bad for raids. I'd actually enjoy warrior in aoe more if it wasn't like that personally, Yeah again it's dungeons but dungeons shouldn't teach players that you can afk the tanks going to do all the healing in the pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
I hope you get where im coming from at least though, Like I can get why people might find it fun, but I think it takes too much from healers currently.
Bloodbath would actually make a interesting role action for tanks (aslong as it worked for drk too, as it doesn't work with magic attacks) as Bloodbath really isn't that strong potency wise, don't actually get why it's designed for melees now? like bloodbath makes way more sense as a tank tool. -
11-02-2023, 09:11 AMMikoRemiThat's your opinion though. Having the sustain be useful in dungeons and raid settings whether it's from the AOE sustain or the barrier/mitigation potential, it's quite nice to have. It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really. Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style. Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit. It's also just a difference of opinions at any rate, you don't like the sustain, I do, DRK is more for you then I suppose although unless that PLD status is old, maybe you prefer not as strong healing, fine by me but I got WAR for the big stuff. Some shifts include either adding some more elements to the combat design overall or giving something else to the other classes. Healer's should have that discussion on their threads, but I can say it's primarily their super boring "rotation" that's the bigger problem here. The healing is quite necessary for the actual hard content.
Bloodbath used to be a Warrior ability long long ago that was taken away and given to Melee's, which should get some good sustain since Second Wind is frankly near useless. Sure, you can maybe clutch survive one thing, but Bloodbath can do much much more. We don't need it now though, PLD has many forms of healing, WAR as well, GNB has a couple regens, and DRK could just use a reworked Blood Price. Melee and Tanks can enjoy the best of both worlds and I wouldn't want to take Bloodbath back from them, just give DRK something and maybe a tiny bit of help for GNB since that 25 second combo window is quite long unless you pop something before using it I suppose. -
11-02-2023, 12:37 PMLyth
The fun of lifesteal comes from keeping yourself alive against all odds. It's about risk. The community used to love 8 WAR/solo WAR runs back in ARR because those clears came right down to the wire. The example that I linked is one of the most entertaining examples of this (such an underrated video). Now, whenever you hear of an all WAR group clearing content, it's just not all that remarkable or exciting, because you know they're just hitting max health on demand. It's too safe.
I feel like the current iteration of WAR isn't designed for people who are actually interested in lifesteal and high risk tanking. It's designed for those tanks who, on hitting 90% HP on a single pack pull, pop all of their defensive cooldowns, burst into tears, and start screeching at their healers to heal them. It's just a mix of passive regens and on demand burst heals that function as a security blanket rather than requiring planning, precise timing, or understanding of incoming damage. I understand that the WAR and PLD changes this expansion were deliberately done to remove tanks' reliance on healers, but you can use other forms of self-healing to support beginner tank gameplay. Lifesteal deserves better implementation than this.
The most interesting lifesteal actions are contextual, in that the amount of healing depends on timing. Actions like Warcraft's Death Strike are designed to heal you based off of how much damage you've taken in the past few seconds, rather than being a fixed potency. Rewinding damage is a similarly fun concept in that it is timing dependent. The timing is where the element of risk comes in. -
11-02-2023, 01:24 PMMikoRemi
I either pick to solo heal myself or help mit and heal a party member at the right timing. Bold to assume all WAR’s love to single pack and cry if they aren’t topped off, I like to see how low I can go and so do the good healers. Long as HP isn’t 0, all is fine.
If you want your risky heals then I guess DRK is just fine with Living Dead then, if they can make it more interesting then I’d be curious but then well be seeing more dead tanks. I already remember the woes of Stormblood despite the cool concepts, primarily because you can’t trust the community with that kind of stuff when they already don’t know what materia are
I mean if people wanna 8 man content with WAR then it’s whatever. Seeing Kou with his 4 man healer party in ARR was cool to see, but that’s not a common occurrence just like 8 man WAR parties, or the famed no phys ranged comps. -
11-02-2023, 02:13 PMShurrikhanHow is this relevant to what you're quoting, though? No one said that no tank should have AoE-scaled sustain. The problem is the procedure of that AoE sustain providing so great a degree of output that it devalues one's other tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
TBN is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Heart of Corundom is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons. Holy Sheltron is still useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.. They don't need to be as busted as Bloodwhetting's output in AoE to be useful, largely necessary, and plenty fun in dungeons.
Cue the whataboutisms. Let's hope they're at least relevant...Quote:
It'd be a real shame to have it be touched, and there's far bigger things to touch really.
A Doom that cannot be cleansed except through Esuna from failing to dodge provides no more tank gameplay that --you guessed it-- the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss.Quote:
Want to teach players not to AFK, there's been doom lately making the rounds since Fell Court of Troia since we moved away from the Bardam's Mettle puzzle boss style.
Which is, as literally as can be... not a dungeon. The complaints are about dungeon gameplay. The thread is about dungeon gameplay. Dungeons. Not Extremes or higher. Dungeons.Quote:
Want to also not AFK, try content that's Extreme or higher and watch things get hellish if you do such a thing.
It is not "harming" a piece of kit to ask to return it to being interactive with the rest of the kit (such as by reverting it to its Shadowbringer's functionality, complete with the extra options and agency that entailed).Quote:
I can see where you're coming from but there's other ways to deal with it than harming a piece of kit.
-
11-02-2023, 03:32 PMMikoRemiRead what Rithy is saying, they're the one pointing out that WAR shouldn't have AoE healing, specifically with; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". All because; "AOE sustain on warrior just isn't fun IMO". Hence why I said that's their opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Nobody is saying TBN isn't useful, but the shield does much less to protect from a mob attack over sustain, shields are strongest with single deadly blows which aren't common in dungeons to say the least. Heart of Corundum is fine, the continuation combo could give some shielding itself so somewhere in that 25 second window you don't have to slam a mit or lose DPS, and PLD doesn't need it because they got Clemency/Holy Spirit/Holy Circle just to name a few other healing alternatives. I personally love WAR's healing and then PLD, while GNB doesn't quite heal enough to be comfortable but Superbolide can make up for it.
Is it really a whataboutism? I know you don't love to read other posts but we already have things like Dark Mind to touch let alone other things.
Welp, everyone loves to say Bloodwhetting solves everything including you, so that doesn't really answer much other than just trying to dodge with "no more tank gameplay".
And again, can skills be separated from dungeon or raid? Don't think so. Not to mention Lyth already brought up 8 man WAR solo runs which if I'm not mistaken, isn't a dungeon. But hey, crucify me specifically~.
Or we can just have a single target version that's particularly strong for what it should be, or choosing to use the partner version that's weaker but supportive, an element of choice if you will. No real need to revert something that's fine. A good revert was giving Energy Drain back to SCH back in SHB because removing that was a complete mistake. -
11-02-2023, 04:46 PMOizenThis is a bit disingenuous isnt it? Bloodbath heals based on damage done. As a melee, if you bloodbath a crowd of mobs, you're not really transformed into that much of a tank. The healing is very gradual, and beyond that it has a 20s cd because its not supposed to heal you all to max at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
WAR might actually be more interesting if its healing was locked away behind its infuriate skills specifically while just spamming basic combos barely healed you at all. Would give the job way more decision making on where and when to use your fattest attacks if your healing scaled up and down with damage. -
11-02-2023, 05:12 PMMikoRemiIt still hits in an AoE which is what im referring to in that post specifically whenever Rithy wants to bring up; "warrior shouldn't get aoe sustain (400 heal per hit not per enemy)". If Warrior can't have AoE healing then might as well shift it since it's the same kind of healing, hit a button, heal from doing damage. It's not supposed to heal you all at once because of the status as a DPS, they can't even make Physick heal at a decent rate, and RDM's would be ok if it didn't have a slew of other issues that's for the DPS threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
You'd find it more interesting that's for sure. It's whatever to me. Just having a button that lets you heal as well as mitigate and shield, or alternatively give a version to a friend while only healing yourself is fine enough. It works fine as is, so no real reason to change it. You know what would actually be interesting though? Giving DRK Blood Price back and let it heal back 50% of damage taken so it'll die slower. Also give Dark Mind that 10% phys reduction or just a flat 20% all across, and let Dark Missionary come earlier than 70. That'd already be an actual good use of time over shifting WAR who is doing right well for themselves. -
11-03-2023, 12:05 AMRein_eon_OsborneThis over here, made ShB Nascent Flash felt satisfying to use. I remember back then there was no way you could sustain yourself with Nascent Flash > regular AoE combo in a wall pull. WARs in those time simply don't do enough dps to generate enough sustenance that way. Paired with Chaotic Cyclone & using it on Decimates however, it became a different story. It makes decision making actually a thing even in the most braindead content in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Today's RI/BW made that decision making less of a factor while also eating away what's little left on the green role's job within dungeon. If this is a solo game I wouldn't care, but here we are lol. -
11-03-2023, 01:33 AMRithy255
At this point I think tanks in general need a "defensive kit" overhaul, not just for the sake of dungeons but for the sake of things hitting harder, I think some sustain on tank in general is healthy (I think Gunbreaker is like the best example of good sustain but not overbearing), mainly I just want to move away from tanks not even having to use defensives anymore.
General-
Make the 30% mitigations "unique" Just please make them separate at this point lol might as well be role actions if not, maybe even add more rewards to mitigating damage correctly by having a slight DPS increase (has to be very slight).
PLD-
Holy Shellron should Give like 15% mitigation and a 15% barrier, (sort of like pvp with the barrier aspect) they can also do similar to intervention (Just please rework the animation to look like pld channelling a holy sheltron onto ally instead of the bad one we got currently lol), maybe breaking the barrier would reward you with idk shield swipe, I'd love clemency to become OGCD and apart of "plds mp management" so if you spammed it too much it would ruin your magic phase but good use of it wouldn't effect you, Cover can go off gauge, DV healing shouldn't be burst should be regen once barrier breaks, not a fan of passage but some like it's cone, can remove the Magic healing in place of the clemency management
DRK-
Kinda like it if drk could "augment" its defensive abilities to do different effects (example swapping dark mind to physical, turning oblation into a small life steal changing shadow wall to be faster but weaker ect.) "dark arts" TBN breaking should reward you with 10% on your next magic ogcd attack, kinda like it if they got a barrier aoe (stronger then DV but no healing regen, unless using DA which would give only the healing sustain effect to team).
War-
Remove AOE sustain, remove shake for a strong enemy intimidation ability that reduces the enemy's damage by 15% (like a stronger reprisal), Kind of would like it if in like SHB war would have to choose either to mitigate or to heal, You could increase warriors base Hp by 20% passively as well.
GNB-
Tbh mostly keep the same (maybe a 5-10% hp increase like pvp), I'd like its aoe to also work in physical honestly i think GNB has one of the better mitigation tool kits even if its a bit standard. -
11-03-2023, 09:06 PMZairavaOkay, I'm going to approach this at another angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
It shouldn't be healing you to full as a tank effortlessly either. The power between Bloodwhetting and Bloodbath is totally incomparable if you're talking the use in aoe.
To test out how potent it actually is, I went in game and used both Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium multiple times.
At my item level (either 653 or 654), I have, rounded down, 114,000HP, and per weaponskill Bloodwhetting healed me for anywhere from ~8.8k-9.2k HP, and you should be getting 4 GCD's in, so now let's do the math.
Let's use the standard double pull in dungeons. Let's say you have 8 mobs on you. I'll use 9k as a medium then show the lowball 8.8k
- 9000*4=36,000 | 36,000*8 = 288,000 HP healed + 9,000eHP from the shield (totaling 297,000) + 10% flat mit for 8s
- 8.8k*4=35,200 | 35,200*8 = 281,000 HP healed + 8,800eHP from the shield (totaling 289,800) + 10% flat mit for 8s
Equilibrium is a flat 1,200 potency plus the HoT proved to be relative to the cure potency calculations from BW. Like the prior calcs I used rounded values.- 27,000 + 22,500(HoT)=49,500 total
That is an absolutely ludicrous amount of healing that NO TANK should have readily available every 25s. The simple calcs I just listed don't include crit heals either. It's not "doing just well" or "doing just fine", you're basically immortal due to how fast it comes off cooldown and the sheer volume of self-healing from it. It ranges from one benediction to nearly four every 25 seconds. That people think this even remotely healthy balance on any tank with how completely mindless it is to perform is mind-boggling. -
11-03-2023, 09:10 PMZairavaQuote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
It would be more interesting to have Abyssal Drain back on the GCD with an MP cost and just return Blood Price as it was, even if it's on a longer cooldown. -
11-03-2023, 10:01 PMMikoRemiOnce again, tanks who primarily take the damage, melees who don't normally take the damage. Both have options, but which one fits the role best for the respective potencies? I'm more in line with having both options available in particular so that both jobs feel happy, but Bloodwhetting being stronger is obvious. The fact of the matter though, is that Bloodbath is superior to Second wind as Bloodwhetting is to Equilibrium, which you thankfully math out for the next bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
I appreciate the math at least and won't argue that in an AoE scenario, Bloodwhetting is quite a powerful move. The comparison with Equilibrium however needs a little re-examination...that skill is simply an enhanced Second Wind really, an emergency heal that also heals a little over as a precaution. Primary healing is usually through Bloodwhetting which in AoE is of course strong, but in regards to single target, it becomes more of a nice tool but when faced with bigger damage it's usually best to be used for the mitigation and shielding. It's mostly important considering there's a 50/50 involved with targets doing physical damage in general or not, so you want to use Vengeance as much as possible to get that damage and not so much mitigation. It leaves you with only a few options left, and having one available more readily helps mitigate the loss of Vengeance as a defense tool.
It absolutely is a nice tool, means if the healer dies I don't have to worry so much. Very clutch in other environments as well which has to be considered since as I mention to others, you can't separate skills other than by PVE or PVP. If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.
IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. Yes yes, this is a dungeon thread, but that's a point that cannot be denied unfortunately. If nothing else, having come from an environment where the nerf bat can get ridiculous, I'd rather keep it sparce than drag down a pretty fun class. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose. -
11-03-2023, 10:02 PMMikoRemiThis would at least be a positive. Nothing wrong with this actually, even if Blood Price giving a little healing wouldn't be that terrible of a boost personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
-
11-04-2023, 05:59 AMZairavaI..what? Equilibrium is literally part of your sustain kit, you'd might as well say Thrill of Battle is an emergency heal+HP increase. You..are literally invalidating both Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, parts of your own toolkit, in dungeon content with Bloodwhetting unless your healer ate dirt and you don't have either a SMN or RDM to raise them. Equilibrium should be seen as something important and useful in all content, not the neglected child of the family.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
Even if you take the comparison to Equilibrium out of the equation, my point with it ranging from one to four benedictions in dungeons still stands. Benediction is a single full heal every 180 seconds, you have Bloodwhetting every 25.
I haven't seen anyone actually ask for the healing potency to be nerfed, unless you account for suggestions to return it to a portion of damage dealt. To add to this, there is no reason to separate them, the Nascent Flash being split in to two abilities is already unnecessary, just like shoha II's existence, just upgrade Shoha.Quote:
If the healing was lowered, it would suffer in single target, but as it is now it's strong in AoE as a result. It's just one of those things that gets better the more enemies you add, like with AoE in general where the general potency increases with more mobs.
IMO, unless they're going to have skills changed between dungeons/trials/raids/etc, it's an uncomfortable idea to damn a skill solely because of its strength in lower tier content. I'd also imagine honestly that if it really was a problem, it would've been addressed as fast as something like SCH's Expedience, or the silly gap when SMN was the highest DPS of any job including BLM and SAM by a fair bit. At this point though, WAR's healing is a matter of preference I suppose.
Expedience was seen as a problem because it was 20 seconds of sprint party-wide, which is completely absurd in high-end content. Bloodwhetting is balanced in single target, so that wasn't seen as an issue. You would still perform more than fine in dungeons if Bloodwhetting was per use, or a portion of damage dealt like its Shadowbringers counterpart (which I really enjoyed, actually. It made using it for standard aoe or during IR and/or with Nascent Chaos an actual decision to make). -
11-04-2023, 06:44 AMMikoRemiNot really, you're trying to compare a tool that scales better in AoE to something that only works on yourself. It's the same reason why Bloodbath works even better in AoE vs single target, but still stronger than Second Wind, Bloodwhetting works the same way vs Equilibrium. It's not complicated, they're all useful, but AoE scaling is AoE scaling, same reason why in practice AoE attacks do absurd damage the more numbers you add into the pile because you hit more enemies at once, that's all there is to it. Also Thrill can act as an emergency heal of sorts since it does in fact increase the healing from Equilibrium and I believe the Shake it Off regen, but not from Bloodwhetting. It's also great for times when Max HP is reduced, or something like eating Homing Lasers in UWU where without a full set of cooldowns or an invuln, it hits like a truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
Indeed with higher numbers it can certainly add up to that, I won't argue the math at the least. That's just how it goes when you add more enemies to the pile though. It certainly won't benediction on single targets, and that's the thing to consider.
Rithy tends to want Bloodwhetting to only work on one enemy at a time which is essentially a large nerf even if not to the potency itself. I can't remember every single thread ever made on this site of course, but the vocal minority here also want Warrior's healing removed completely. It's a sad time. In regards to Shoha II's existence, that's more fine since Samurai actually has a button bloating issue, with WAR especially it doesn't really have too many buttons outside of the 1-2-3, 1-2-4 and 1-2 AoE. A lot of those could just be fixed with 1-1-1, 1-1-2 sorts as a toggleable option of course, if only to quell the people who would find that system braindead...even if there's almost no difference between the two in terms of skill.
Balanced in single target indeed, and just happens to scale a lot better when you add more enemies. It really would depend but honestly as it is, it's not one of the major things that need changing nor is it as insanely broken as people say, or else it would've gotten slapped quite quickly. Nowadays I keep it up for either AoE heals, some mitigation and shielding for bigger hits, or slap it on someone who needs it for whatever reason. It's already quite fine.
Part 1 of 2. -
11-04-2023, 06:45 AMMikoRemi
Key thing is that every tank tends to work fine for everything after dungeons, so then the question becomes why. Classes like DRK don't have much sustain and GNB is doing a little fine but could use a tiny bit more. Nobody is worried about PLD or WAR in that regard, and going back to the start of the thread, it's mainly poking at DRK. Just adding Blood Price and making Abyssal Drain use MP again would be great fixes. Rather than tear down tanks that can do well, bring up the tanks that have it harder. It wouldn't be all that crazy vs single targets once again, so it wouldn't be so bad. Healer's at that point just need a more engaging rotation but that's a discussion for Healer threads.
Part 2 of 2. -
11-04-2023, 07:28 AMAbsurdityWhat made ShB Nascent interesting was that you needed to have at least an understanding of the job to get the most out of it, it could provide healing anywhere between "wet noodle" and "healing yourself to full" depending on your understanding of when to best use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
Endwalker Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash require nothing but the minimum amount of brain cells to press the ability and then a weaponskill, you could hit Heavy Swing 4 times as far as the game cares. -
11-04-2023, 08:21 AMShurrikhanThere is no remaining question of why except to those with their ears plugged.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
That Warrior's sustain is merely "weirdly/worryingly high" outside of dungeons but "stupidly/brokenly high" in dungeons comes down simply to the target-count-scaling of EW Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash's means of sustain.
This has been explained to you ad nauseum by now.
Bloodbath does not heal for its single-target value per enemy struck. It simply heals based on whatever damage you can put out. Which is exactly how Nascent Flash used to work, making it interact far better with the rest of Warrior's kit.
EW Bloodwhetting and Nascent, on the other hand, heal for the same amounts they would in single-target, but per target. Which is not how AoE works in any other area of the game.
That question has long, long, long since been answered. You just have to read any of the many hundred explanations of how and why that have been made since EW launch. -
11-04-2023, 08:35 AMMikoRemiOh come now, just because you're frustrated doesn't mean you have to give up so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's decent outside of dungeons and very fine in dungeons, nice correction. And thank you for doing basic math, that's how basic AoE's work when they scale more based on even more enemies. I have to be the one explaining that one though apparently.
And? Hit multiple enemies, get more healing. The technicals don't really matter when what comes out is more based on more enemies.
Mainly because there's a cure potency attached along with weaponskill damage, which is quite handy for a tank who has to take damage. Bloodsucker has an innate version of that in Bozja. Also not every AoE has a falloff, this would include this rather neat healing one.
What question? That there's a vocal minority whining about something that's doing pretty good? I mean it's hardly surprising, more surprising is coming from someone that hates to read other threads selectively and yet you ask me to do so when I in fact remember related threads when you love to ask "How is this relevant to what you're quoting, though". No the real question that will come up over and over, is why DRK is behind in the sustain game. It's why well get more threads of DRK needing help, patches to other tanks being a middle finger to DRK, and why the start of this thread began with DRK.
WAR is a great tank, so is PLD, GNB is a bit finnicky but it's still pretty great. DRK is getting closer and closer, but it just needs a little more. However if all people wanna do is try to tear down a nice tank instead of bringing up the one that consistently gets brought up often, then it'll be little wonder that DRK doesn't get much. Enjoy I suppose. -
11-04-2023, 09:04 AMZairavaYes, and it being a single target non-benediction is how it should function if they aren't going to revert it to it's Shadowbringers counterpart.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
"A lot better" and "just fine" is such a horrific understatement. You are defending what is essentially an invulnerability skill in dungeons that you use every 25 seconds that lasts 8 seconds. So long as you press that one single button and press aoe skills you will. not. die., and more often than not be at full HP, for 8 seconds.
The only healing I've seen people wanted removed completely, including myself, is the party healing on Shake it Off.
Because DRK, for the quintillionth time, does. not. need it. It is not behind on sustain because it does not need it. Nor does Gunbreaker. The people that do complain about it have a genuine skill issue or are complaining simply because they have to put forth a modicum of extra effort or healers complaining that they need to *checks notes* do their job and heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoRemi
The absolute last thing DRK needs is to become even more foolproofed when it's already boring as sin in every moment except when you're bursting.