4gamer Interview

i'm the oldest in my FC by a couple years to several years. i'm not that-that old but i'm amongst the youngest of the millennial generation.
i dunno what they're talking about by appealing to the younger generations since most of these people i've known since stormblood/the beginning of shb.

unless they mean like, literal 13 year olds or something.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Are their interests different to the older generations? No, because anywhere that people look for friends and mention their age, they all say the same thing regardless of age. Whether people are 20 or 35 they either do extreme/savage or gpose.

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Strange false dichotomy there.

We're getting the fall-guys collab and it's coinciding with those spiderman waterslide tiktoks...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Are their interests different to the older generations? No, because anywhere that people look for friends and mention their age, they all say the same thing regardless of age. Whether people are 20 or 35 they either do extreme/savage or gpose.

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Yes, the MMO boomers who have nostalgia for ffxi, everquest, or ultima online have entirely different expectations from people who didn't play those. People without nostalgia for those see long pointless grinds as just that, a time waster that you aren't really enjoying for 10-30 hours just to get a shiny weapon.
If you aren't particularly enjoying a game and are just doing mindless overworld grinds what's the point? That time could be spent in another game or in other content you do enjoy. Doubly so if it's like Bozja/Eureka and making a mistake means you lengthen your grind by a significant amount for each mistake, undoing progress.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Strange false dichotomy there.

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Well yes, they can do both, but these are the most common things I see consistently and often it is one or the other that I see mentioned.

I don't know what people see in gposing, but objectively I see it coming up as as a main thing someone does in the game...

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Yes, the MMO boomers who have nostalgia for ffxi, everquest, or ultima online have entirely different expectations from people who didn't play those. People without nostalgia for those see long pointless grinds as just that, a time waster that you aren't really enjoying for 10-30 hours just to get a shiny weapon.
If you aren't particularly enjoying a game and are just doing mindless overworld grinds what's the point? That time could be spent in another game or in other content you do enjoy. Doubly so if it's like Bozja/Eureka and making a mistake means you lengthen your grind by a significant amount for each mistake, undoing progress.

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The relic grinds in this game are nothing compared to the timewaste in those games though and they departed from the RNG they had in Pyros. It is not about making them waste your time as much as that.

It's about making them not just handed out for nothing, and being something that drags you into social content in what is supposed to be a social game. Even the Heavensward relics were social because you would party up to farm fates, you would party up to light farm A1S or A9S, you would party up to go through all the trials it asks you to and in those parties you would have a whole conversation with people since the content itself was obviously mindless.

It just seems strange to me to believe that any gamer wants to magic themselves to the end or to go through it while invincible so they can't lose. If they want these things they may as well watch films on netflix and keep skipping to the final scene.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well yes, they can do both.

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Or neither. That would be the category I fall in. I'm just a casual with a lot of playtime doing casual content.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's about making them not just handed out for nothing

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Oh damn, really? I didn't know you worked so hard to hit 1-1-1-1-1 on your AOE button for 30 hours on synced fates while netflix was on the other monitor. That's definitely more work and more deserving than someone who ran dungeons or hunt trains to earn the items.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Oh damn, really? I didn't know you worked so hard to hit 1-1-1-1-1 on your AOE button for 30 hours on synced fates while netflix was on the other monitor. That's definitely more work and more deserving than someone who ran dungeons or hunt trains to earn the items.

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Are you implying that people doing dungeons and hunt trains don't have netflix on another monitor? Because that seems to be a common thing especially when it comes to players arguing over pull size/wall2wall etc.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Oh damn, really? I didn't know you worked so hard to hit 1-1-1-1-1 on your AOE button for 30 hours on synced fates while netflix was on the other monitor. That's definitely more work and more deserving than someone who ran dungeons or hunt trains to earn the items.

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You're doing that content already to cap weekly tomestones. So essentially it is giving you the relic for free. If there was no other reason to do expert or hunt trains except the relic, then it would be content but there are other reasons we do them.

And as I said, it is not all about the grind but about the social interaction it brings. Which is part of the point of an MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

And as I said, it is not all about the grind but about the social interaction it brings. Which is part of the point of an MMORPG.

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This point can't be stated enough. The catering to solo content and content that removes us from interacting with others is not a great trend.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Oh damn, really? I didn't know you worked so hard to hit 1-1-1-1-1 on your AOE button for 30 hours on synced fates while netflix was on the other monitor. That's definitely more work and more deserving than someone who ran dungeons or hunt trains to earn the items.

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No past relic grind was exclusively FATE grinding. That was not the entirety of the relic, and even for those that did involve a FATE grind, you're describing a problem with healer design. If you don't want to mash 1 until your fingers bleed, don't play healer. It would be nice if that wasn't the case and healers were actually fun to play all the time, not only during day 1 Alliance Raids and blind Savage prog, but alas, healers are only allowed to have a level 2 rotation and nothing more. Healer brains aren't strong enough for anything else apparently.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

No past relic grind was exclusively FATE grinding. That was not the entirety of the relic, and even for those that did involve a FATE grind, you're describing a problem with healer design. If you don't want to mash 1 until your fingers bleed, don't play healer. It would be nice if that wasn't the case and healers were actually fun to play all the time, not only during day 1 Alliance Raids and blind Savage prog, but alas, healers are only allowed to have a level 2 rotation and nothing more. Healer brains aren't strong enough for anything else apparently.

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Need a healer strike like GW1 Thunderhead Keep monk strike lmao

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Originally Posted by Lauront

https://ffxiv.jeuxonline.info/actual...ir-mmo#english
https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fant...-proofing-mmos

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Exactly, it's those interviews that had me worried, especially the one where he shared his vision of a future MMORPG by comparing it to other games.

Unfortunately, the game isn't evolving for the better because Yoshi-P is implementing his current and narrow vision of what he thinks is necessary for the future of FFXIV.

He's moving away from a certain type of player to cater to those who want to play a nearly solo game without investing even a minimum amount of effort.
It's completely contrary to the essence of an MMORPG, and it could ultimately kill the game.

And even when players feedback are not favorable, like in the interview where he talks about Endwalker relics, he seems to deflect negative comments in a way, and despite it all, Yoshi-P doesn't appear to have changed his mind on the matter,
he seems quite stubborn.

If the devs continue to ignore current feedback, which seems to be the case based on all the recent interview responses, the game might just continue down this path.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Yes, the MMO boomers who have nostalgia for ffxi, everquest, or ultima online have entirely different expectations from people who didn't play those. People without nostalgia for those see long pointless grinds as just that, a time waster that you aren't really enjoying for 10-30 hours just to get a shiny weapon.
If you aren't particularly enjoying a game and are just doing mindless overworld grinds what's the point? That time could be spent in another game or in other content you do enjoy. Doubly so if it's like Bozja/Eureka and making a mistake means you lengthen your grind by a significant amount for each mistake, undoing progress.

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I've been there for the old MMO grinds, there's systems that were archaic such as loss of progress, and should stay gone from modern mmos.

The social aspect of MMO's is not one of those things. If you don't like the grind, then relics weren't meant for you, and that's fine. It wasn't until Endwalker they decided to yet again try to lump something to be into the appeal of everyone, which is an impossible task. They readily have a weapon you are already meant to get with tomes, just remove the raid drop being necessary and adjust the tomes needed to acquire it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Oh damn, really? I didn't know you worked so hard to hit 1-1-1-1-1 on your AOE button for 30 hours on synced fates while netflix was on the other monitor. That's definitely more work and more deserving than someone who ran dungeons or hunt trains to earn the items.

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1-1-1-1 is a healer issue, not a relic issue. You can literally just prepare tomes beforehand without thinking about it and have enough for your main job on launch by doing, quite literally, nothing.

You could do that with every job in current msq dungeons with any role and still clear it. People already pop netflix or something on when running msq dungeons even when NOT just pressing only 1-1-1-1-1, it's bloody boring and nearly puts me to sleep sometimes. Hunt trains only start requiring some effort when there isn't many people because they actually pose enough of a threat to kill you.

Just because players are handing in tomes for relics in higher numbers doesn't mean the game is better for it, those players are happy, and subs will be maintained. If devs are so happy to point to this metric, why not offer a sobering analysis of all the other metrics we don't get that would give a true indicator of the health of the game? Instead devs make statements like this that just incentivize the die hards to stay in denial.

If it was simplified down to "press X for relic" they would have even higher completion numbers but it shouldn't be seen as a success. People will always collect a reward that is quick and easy.

Is this why they never stop making mindless normal dungeons? The participation numbers for those are only so high because it gives a large amount of tomestones to buy some of the strongest gear in the game, with no difficulty barrier.

Nobody actually wants to run the same two expert dungeons all year. It's a little bit of mind-numbing tedium that people force themselves through for reward efficiency. Rush it, get out, probably not fun for many people by the 40th run.

The starting point for content ideas should probably be "what is most fun?" brainstorming with no restrictions, later followed by "how do we adapt this into an MMO?" I don't like following a straight path from point A to B spamming aoes.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't think he's misinterpreting the data. I think that players are misinterpreting what type of content SE wants relic weapons to be. What those who want a grind should be looking for is new grind content with new rewards that SE is fine with making exclusive to the grind.

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That's a decent point. We're judging relics on how they were in the past. Maybe their design has progressed to something else. I'll still give them feedback that I want something of the old system back. But you do make a fair point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

DC Travel - okay this one shocks me. He acknowledges they do receive and pay attention to feedback from NA and EU in his response to Criterion rewards. Why has he missed that NA and EU are having the same DC travel issue as JP? Is it because it developed for us slower than because we had larger world populations than JP to start with? Did the Community Team miss the feedback and so nothing was forwarded?

I'm sure YoshiP will hear about this soon enough because it's highly unlikely MrHappy won't say anything about it, and we know for certain that he's one NA content creator that gets watched by YoshiP and part of the dev team.

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Yeeeeeeah this one shocks me, too. It does call into question what he's using for information on the pulse of the game that he doesn't know this is a major issue outside the JP region.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't think he's misinterpreting the data. I think that players are misinterpreting what type of content SE wants relic weapons to be.

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I'm sure all the players playing failed MMOs like New World are just misinterpreting what the developers want.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

I'm sure all the players playing failed MMOs like New World are just misinterpreting what the developers want.

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Man, remember all the Buzz around New World, Blue Protocol, Diablo IV, & Lost Ark?
I think Lost Ark might still be ok, but I dont hear about it anymore. But all of these games were SOOO HYPE and were going to be SO MUCH BETTER then FFXIV...but now they are frowned on as Massive Disappointments and effectively Abandoned.

Thats at least how it looks in my Circle.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

I'm sure all the players playing failed MMOs like New World are just misinterpreting what the developers want.

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Sounds like a fair statement to me. In New World's case, the players misinterpreted the NW devs' intent as making a fun and interesting MMORPG.

The devs' intent was to grab a piece of the MMORPG market using a minimum of knowledge about making MMORPGs. They're still doing it with all the packages they keep adding to their cash shop.

Maybe if players had waited before rushing in on the hype train to buy, they wouldn't have fallen into the trap.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Man, remember all the Buzz around New World, Blue Protocol, Diablo IV, & Lost Ark?
I think Lost Ark might still be ok, but I dont hear about it anymore.

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Sad state of things. Around the time FF XIV released we were getting news on "the largest sandbox style MMO ever designed" which was set to leapfrog everyone else - Everquest Next. It was going to have ahead-of-its-time tech with terrain deformation and physics systems.... and it was cancelled. That's the end of the EQ series being relevant.

WildStar looked good but that died. I would have tried if they made a console version. WoW is almost 20 years old now and it has never been on console. I still intend to try Blue Protocol when it is releases internationally but it has red flags; being run by Amazon tops the list.

S-E are at least very reliable at running an MMO. We're up-to-date on the English side of FF XIV because it's combined with JP service in a global version, not spun off to a less reliable company. And they have in-house localisation. And they aren't going bust or ending service any time soon.

'Good enough' will have to do. There is no wildly innovative next-gen MMO coming to shake up the market and displace FF XIV unless they wake up and adapt to new ideas. :(

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Sounds like a fair statement to me. In New World's case, the players misinterpreted the NW devs' intent as making a fun and interesting MMORPG.

The devs' intent was to grab a piece of the MMORPG market using a minimum of knowledge about making MMORPGs. They're still doing it with all the packages they keep adding to their cash shop.

Maybe if players had waited before rushing in on the hype train to buy, they wouldn't have fallen into the trap.

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New World is still going? I thought the poor implementation of the ideas that sounded good on paper killed off what was left after their 4 day long login queues when it launched.

A fair amount of issues in games in general in more recent years IMO are a result of devs not thinking like actual gamers when designing the game which results in systems and mechanics getting manipulated easily to the point it breaks the game. While not so much of an issue with a single player game it tends to become a serious issue with multiplayer or MMO games. Going off trends with CBU3 it seems their approach to this is to simply take options away from players to excessively limit what they can do in game. Which IMO is counter to the entire concept of an RPG.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The devs' intent was to grab a piece of the MMORPG market using a minimum of knowledge about making MMORPGs. They're still doing it with all the packagesmounts they keep adding to their cash shop.

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You're absolutely correct about FF14