If you're unhappy with this game then unsub... forever.

All video games should now be judged using the standards set by titles such as BG3 and Elden Ring and the developers thereof. If a development team can't or won't listen to player feedback, or if they can't or won't release a product in a complete state, without the need for microtransactions, then they should be ignored entirely by the community at large. Do not engage with them. Do not give them money. The gaming industry will have no choice but to pay attention if enough people stop enabling their garbage practices.

Okay... Well, I'm happy with FF14. So, I'll keep subbed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

All video games should now be judged using the standards set by titles such as BG3 and Elden Ring and the developers thereof. If a development team can't or won't listen to player feedback, or if they can't or won't release a product in a complete state, without the need for microtransactions, then they should be ignored entirely by the community at large. Do not engage with them. Do not give them money. The gaming industry will have no choice but to pay attention if enough people stop enabling their garbage practices.

---

Embarassing watching devs with large corporate funding say that we shouldn't expect better, while they simultaneously throw tons of microtransactions at us with open hands, waiting for our money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

All video games should now be judged using the standards set by titles such as BG3 and Elden Ring and the developers thereof. If a development team can't or won't listen to player feedback, or if they can't or won't release a product in a complete state, without the need for microtransactions, then they should be ignored entirely by the community at large. Do not engage with them. Do not give them money. The gaming industry will have no choice but to pay attention if enough people stop enabling their garbage practices.

---

I emphatically agree. That's part of what I've been trying to get across when making this thread but I caught heavy fire for it for some reason. Controversial opinion apparently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Okay... Well, I'm happy with FF14. So, I'll keep subbed.

---

I don't think anyone, including myself, was telling people who were happy with this game they had to unsub. I personally am unhappy with seeming lack of effort from the developers, as well as the predatory monetization that is occurring within the gaming space in general. I am merely saying that complaints alone don't sway AAA developers who are beholden to stakeholders. Stakeholders who only care about the bottom line and not about player enjoyment. The only way to speak to such people is with your wallet if you are unhappy.

I think some people need a break but can't unsub because addicted, they want to keep playing casual content (exploration zone/relic) was not given to them. They now want something to grind to keep them in game BUT FF14 has never offered a grind that makes you want to login (Dailies). I personally don't want a reason to login daily, that's what Lost Ark/WOW offers. I'll only login if I want outside of savage/ultimate prog.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Embarassing watching devs with large corporate funding say that we shouldn't expect better, while they simultaneously throw tons of microtransactions at us with open hands, waiting for our money.

---

Usually, it's not the developer's decision. He gets told what to do and he has to do it or get fired. This can also lead to developers treating their job as soulless as possible. If they know execs will sabotage their plans they won't care, won't put in the effort. There is a reason why after a big game release a lot of the staff leaves after bonuses are sorted. They had enough, until the next game when most companies will repeat this pathological situation.

And now SE complaining FF16 sales weren't up to expectations and that PS5 "market growth" should still give sales... like come on, this is an "old" console and due to corporate decisions you released a game on only one platform. There won't be any substantial sales, not until discounts. PS5 owners that wanted the game mostly got it. PC, Xbox is waiting, maybe, as they have other games too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Usually, it's not the developer's decision. He gets told what to do and he has to do it or get fired. This can also lead to developers treating their job as soulless as possible. If they know execs will sabotage their plans they won't care, won't put in the effort. There is a reason why after a big game release a lot of the staff leaves after bonuses are sorted. They had enough, until the next game when most companies will repeat this pathological situation.

And now SE complaining FF16 sales weren't up to expectations and that PS5 "market growth" should still give sales... like come on, this is an "old" console and due to corporate decisions you released a game on only one platform. There won't be any substantial sales, not until discounts. PS5 owners that wanted the game mostly got it. PC, Xbox is waiting, maybe, as they have other games too.

---

Probably part of the reason so many large game companies have been turning out titles that are either lackluster or get flambe'd by gamer feedback is decisions forced on the devs by the "number crunchers" who's only goal is to try and squeeze every penny/schilling/rupee/etc... out of the industry and have no interest in the actual industry itself or quality of the products produced by it. This results in bad design changes, dropped features, and unfinished releases as the "number crunchers" attempt to manipulate the company's quarterly earnings reports. In some ways thinking back these occurrences might have escalated after No Man's Sky. That title officially launched missing a huge amount of things the devs had stated would be in the game resulting in a horrifically bad launch. However Hello Games did commit to sticking with the title and eventually fulfilling the content promises and more and it's become one of the best ongoing games currently available. Seeing this might have triggered a mindset in many that it's OK to release a game in a poor or unfinished state as long as they patch it up later. Of course you also have Bethesda who has a long standing reputation of releasing titles flooded immensely with bugs and glitches that range from humorous to gamebreaking but still managed to stay around.

As for FF16 sales not meeting expectations. Blaming "lack of PS5 availability" is nothing but an excuse. The running trends of AAA game releases has resulted in people being far more reluctant to preorder a title. Thus they wait for the title to release and more information about how it plays becomes available from actual gamers playing the game rather from "gaming journalists" giving reviews. When people could clearly see that FF16 was not the next gen FF game they were looking for, they chose not to purchase it. Hence the sales tanking heavily after the first week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

All video games should now be judged using the standards set by titles such as BG3 and Elden Ring and the developers thereof.

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And what about those players who don't enjoy those types of games and/or haven't played them?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I emphatically agree. That's part of what I've been trying to get across when making this thread but I caught heavy fire for it for some reason. Controversial opinion apparently.

---

Same question to you - what about players who don't enjoy those games and are looking for something different?

Not everyone enjoys the same thing. I'll probably enjoy BG3 (having played the original) but haven't played it yet and so have no way to use it as a base standard. Elden Ring I have not and will not play - I'm not into that combat style.

There is no single standard for every player to judge every game by. The correct standard for a player to use is "Is this a fun and satisfying experience for me?" The answer to that can change over time even if the game doesn't change.

Our likes and interests adjust as we grow older. We may go from the short attention span games as children to long, in depth game play with challenging combat as young adults with plenty of free time to games of shorter duration as family or career oriented individuals back to longer, more in depth game play that is considerate of those with less physical agility compared to their younger days of gaming when we're close to or have retired.

Stop complicating things. There's no need for a game to meet any other standard other than "I'm having fun".

If you're not having fun, find a new game to play that is fun to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

And what about those players who don't enjoy those types of games and/or haven't played them?


Same question to you - what about players who don't enjoy those games and are looking for something different?

Not everyone enjoys the same thing. I'll probably enjoy BG3 (having played the original) but haven't played it yet and so have no way to use it as a base standard. Elden Ring I have not and will not play - I'm not into that combat style.

There is no single standard for every player to judge every game by. The correct standard for a player to use is "Is this a fun and satisfying experience for me?" The answer to that can change over time even if the game doesn't change.

Our likes and interests adjust as we grow older. We may go from the short attention span games as children to long, in depth game play with challenging combat as young adults with plenty of free time to games of shorter duration as family or career oriented individuals back to longer, more in depth game play that is considerate of those with less physical agility compared to their younger days of gaming when we're close to or have retired.

Stop complicating things. There's no need for a game to meet any other standard other than "I'm having fun".

If you're not having fun, find a new game to play that is fun to you.

---

I don't really understand your argument. Fun games have been on the decline thanks to the predatory practices I've been referring to.

Do you think a videogame is more or less fun when the full product is released with all of the features? Well companies have been milking additional money out of their players by pushing out half-finished titles before they're ready and then later releasing the remainder of the game in the DLC that players get charged for.
Do you think people have more or less fun when they have to spend real $ to buy items that should be built into the game? Take a look at mobile gaming and especially a certain major mobile release that came out this year and tell me players enjoy having to spend thousands of dollars to get fully geared.
Do you think people enjoy having to spend real $ on gacha mechanics where they have a 1% chance of actually getting the item they want, or do you think they would actually just be able to earn the item they want in-game?
Do you think people enjoy companies sometimes even going so far as deceiving them into buying things?
Do you think people enjoy games that completely hold their hand and offer no challenge whatsoever?

Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3 are universally acclaimed because they were created for love of their product rather than maximum profit milking tactics that treat the player like a money pinata rather than a human being.

In FFXIV's case, the devs are making it braindead difficulty for everything outside of Savage difficulty and above. Alliance raid is typically CT which I bet everyone in the raid could auto-attack the whole raid and still win. Expert roulette and below you can probably win while watching Netflix on a second monitor. I can't imagine players having fun doing any of the combat in the MSQ when going through the game. Imagine fighting Thordan and cinematically and thematically, it's built up to be this epic moment. The fight looks cool, but you find out it's braindead easy and you'd have to try extremely hard to LOSE. What about that is epic?
They also tell players that ONLY purchases made to their cash shop go back into funding the game. Subscriptions get diverted into resources for other projects that players didn't ask for. On top of being told that, the number of dungeons per patch was cut down and also the time between patches was lengthened and SE's response was 'COVID guys please understand.'
On top of this, they didn't just divert our money to another project(FF16, that we KNOW of.) They also diverted resources from CBU3 that could've gone into making new ideas or further polishing FF14. There's no way you can tell me that Yoshi-P and Soken working on FF16 did not affect this game. It's literally impossible. Because of FF16, they were unable to give this game 100% of their focus. It may have even been second priority in their minds and their passion for it may have waned given FF16's looming release. Is that what people gave Yoshi-P their monthly sub fee and mogstation purchases for? For them to work on something else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If you're not having fun, find a new game to play that is fun to you.

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I'm trying. I really am. Thankfully, Baldur's Gate 3 just came out, but typically? The gaming landscape is mostly devoid of life and full of blood hungry sharks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

And what about those players who don't enjoy those types of games and/or haven't played them?

---

Not the games themselves, the development standards set by them. Both of them came out in a complete state and did not require microtransactions to support them. While they will obviously receive updates in the future (Elden Ring has seen many at this point), they have defied the common pitfalls of "games as a live service" in that they were of high quality upon release. Their respective development teams have delivered precisely what they said they would. In fact, I'd say the team behind BG3 went above and beyond.

In other words:
- Games that work right out of the gate, lacking severe bugs
- Games that feel complete, not requiring subsequent patches to fill in the gaps
- Games that are not driven by corporate greed, which is to say that either lack entirely or minimize the intrusiveness of microtransactions.
- Games wherein the developers do listen to player feedback and monitor various statistics to try and keep the game at the highest quality possible
- Games that maintain a high standard of gameplay without sacrificing other elements

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Snip

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What is fun for you may not be the same as what is fun for someone else.

I would guess that many people gauge fun on weather or not they are enjoying themselves while they play the game.

The business end of the game is an afterthought to them if they even think about it.

Yes some people do want something mindlessly easy which is why so many games have a creative mode setting (3 that come to mind Minecraft, 7DTD, NMS).

So no I really don't think the things you are most concerned about have a darn thing to do with which game many people choose. All they care about is if they are enjoying themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myrany

What is fun for you may not be the same as what is fun for someone else.

I would guess that many people gauge fun on weather or not they are enjoying themselves while they play the game.

The business end of the game is an afterthought to them if they even think about it.

Yes some people do want something mindlessly easy which is why so many games have a creative mode setting (3 that come to mind Minecraft, 7DTD, NMS).

So no I really don't think the things you are most concerned about have a darn thing to do with which game many people choose. All they care about is if they are enjoying themselves.

---

If they enjoy themselves shoving cash into dev's pockets for half-finished, bug-ridden, difficulty-absent games then gaming is doomed. If they enjoy being taken advantage of and treated like money pinatas then we are lost. I am glad Baldur's Gate 3 exists, to show new gamers what a game could be. To show them they don't have to accept being taken advantage of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

If they enjoy themselves shoving cash into dev's pockets for half-finished, bug-ridden, difficulty-absent games then gaming is doomed. If they enjoy being taken advantage of and treated like money pinatas then we are lost. I am glad Baldur's Gate 3 exists, to show new gamers what a game could be. To show them they don't have to accept being taken advantage of.

---

To your mind all those nasty things are true.

To their minds they are getting decent value for their money since they are enjoying themselves.

To my mind the game that just released something truly innovative in the MMORPG group right now is actually a very old one LOTRO. They allow you to pick your difficulty from the moment you roll your character. and the entire world scales to that. Everything from "mobs fall over if you breath on them" to..."I cant even finish a starting quest without a group." If they make this work this is game changing. Mind you that is not a game you would be interested in since it has a pretty aggressive cash shop. Still they came up with something that could be very important going forward in MMORPGs.

I THRIVE on these corporate bootlickers.

Endwalker is lacking. BU3 is showing it's tired. SquareEnix as a company practices crunching. The product we are getting is not nearly what it should be considering how the company throws money at other projects. If anything the cash shop sells and sells, and the game gets cuts and cuts. Then again between forsaken and FFXVI not being the bang they anounced, probably we will see even more cuts in the future... Dawntrail will quickly become the retirement expansion instead of the vacation one.


But someone will white knight. A gatekeeper that will not the unfair, the uninformed, the uncultured haters and trolls in. Oh thank you ever brilliant knight in shining armor! Always remind us for the vigintillion time how yoshida saved the game and thus is not able of nothing bad ever!

People who never experienced the fall of dalamud arguing that 2.0 shields yoshi p from criticism to people who were here for the fall of dalamud who want the modern game to improve will never not be funny to me

The absolute lack of any sort of acknowledgment that the 2 year backlog of content you have because you started in 2022 and therefore the game had so much content to a person who was drip fed this content on patch is just hilarious

I truly think that the WOW exodus happening in ShB and EW being ShB 2.0 is the worst accidental coincidence this game ever experienced because there is just too many people who never experienced SB and so think this half baked melting pot of nothing e thot simulator is all the game has ever been

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

Literally anybody can do any content in FFXIV in crafted gear, what gatekeeping is there exactly ?

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If anyone finds the answer to this question, I need to see it. I'd love to gatekeep people from my PF parties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

If anyone finds the answer to this question, I need to see it. I'd love to gatekeep people from my PF parties.

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Require them to buy a house in game. :P lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I don't really understand your argument. Fun games have been on the decline thanks to the predatory practices I've been referring to.

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Monetization has nothing to do with whether a game is fun. It influences what you're willing to pay.

There's a pretty big difference between the two.

I'm also not talking about whether a game is more fun or less fun. Either it's fun to me or it isn't. The base game may be perfectly fun by itself. Any later content releases might add fun or they may not be fun at all. I remember playing Oblivion and having a great time. Later the Shivering Isles DLC was released and I got that. It was disturbing content that I wish I hadn't purchased. Didn't change that the base game was still fun even if others felt it wasn't full featured because it didn't have the DLCs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Not the games themselves, the development standards set by them. Both of them came out in a complete state and did not require microtransactions to support them. While they will obviously receive updates in the future (Elden Ring has seen many at this point), they have defied the common pitfalls of "games as a live service" in that they were of high quality upon release. Their respective development teams have delivered precisely what they said they would. In fact, I'd say the team behind BG3 went above and beyond.

In other words:
- Games that work right out of the gate, lacking severe bugs
- Games that feel complete, not requiring subsequent patches to fill in the gaps
- Games that are not driven by corporate greed, which is to say that either lack entirely or minimize the intrusiveness of microtransactions.
- Games wherein the developers do listen to player feedback and monitor various statistics to try and keep the game at the highest quality possible
- Games that maintain a high standard of gameplay without sacrificing other elements

---

I can agree about bugs to a some degree. Games should be free of bugs that are reasonably expected to be caught in their testing environment. They may not be able to catch all bugs when players are using a PC. They may not catch all bugs in a Massively Multiplayer environment because it's not feasible to set up that many clients in a testing environment. Still those bugs should be few in number and quickly fixed. Some developers are bad about that.

MMORPGs will never feel complete because they're a model that relies on long term content editions. You can't use that as a standard for a MMORPG.

I agree that microtransactions shouldn't be intrusive into the game. Thank you YoshiP for putting your foot down and keeping the cash shop separate from FFXIV other than Dreamstore that has to be intentionally enabled in a specific location. I hate the games where you log in and the first thing you see is a cash shop window. As for corporate greed, most games are made to make money. You're not going to get rid of that outside of the tiny indie developers working on a passion project that have other sources of income. Everyone has bills that need to be paid.

I agree about listening to feedback but with the warning that listening doesn't mean doing what that feedback asks. Not everyone agrees with every suggested change. Not implementing the change or getting a personal response doesn't mean they didn't listen.

That last is subjective and so can't be applied to a specific standard. An element that might feel necessary to you may be a useless distraction to another. Sometimes what players want isn't technologically feasible for all player clients the game is intended to be played on. Most game developers aren't going to focus on creating games that only 2% of the player community can play because only they own or can afford the necessary hardware and a good 90% of that 2% may have no interest in the game genre.

Part of why Baldur's Gate 3 has turned out so well is that it's been a playable game for almost 3 years and had been in development 4 years prior to that. Their kickstarter supporters have had access to the game since 2020 to give them feedback prior to the initial release. It's difficult for a company to have a product in development for that amount of time unless they get the financial backing before release of the game. Such backing is a risk since you don't know the game will ever be released. It's worked out in the case of BG3 but how many other games have gone the same route and either failed to end up released or are still in development testing after a decade?

Are you willing to risk some of your money to help a game meet your release standards when there's no guarantee that release will ever happen?\

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myrany

To my mind the game that just released something truly innovative in the MMORPG group right now is actually a very old one LOTRO. They allow you to pick your difficulty from the moment you roll your character. and the entire world scales to that. Everything from "mobs fall over if you breath on them" to..."I cant even finish a starting quest without a group." If they make this work this is game changing. Mind you that is not a game you would be interested in since it has a pretty aggressive cash shop. Still they came up with something that could be very important going forward in MMORPGs.

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How does that work out when you've got 2 players attacking the same creature and one player is set to Very Easy and the other is set to Nightmare (or whatever the difficulty modes are named)?

It sounds a bit like WoW's scale to player level system which didn't work out particularly well (at least in my opinion). The net effect was lower level players frequently ended up more powerful than the higher level players depending on what gear was equipped (think Crystal Tower types of power difference).

Or are most open world zones in LotRO so empty that the chances of encountering another player are small? I remember giving it a try back around 2015 and was turned off by the predatory paywalls. Even then I was encountering fewer players in the open world than I do here. I have no clue how good (or bad) it is now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

I THRIVE on these corporate bootlickers.

Endwalker is lacking. BU3 is showing it's tired. SquareEnix as a company practices crunching. The product we are getting is not nearly what it should be considering how the company throws money at other projects. If anything the cash shop sells and sells, and the game gets cuts and cuts. Then again between forsaken and FFXVI not being the bang they anounced, probably we will see even more cuts in the future... Dawntrail will quickly become the retirement expansion instead of the vacation one.


But someone will white knight. A gatekeeper that will not the unfair, the uninformed, the uncultured haters and trolls in. Oh thank you ever brilliant knight in shining armor! Always remind us for the vigintillion time how yoshida saved the game and thus is not able of nothing bad ever!

---

Yet here you are paying a subscription. Thank you for your support!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

People who never experienced the fall of dalamud arguing that 2.0 shields yoshi p from criticism to people who were here for the fall of dalamud who want the modern game to improve will never not be funny to me

The absolute lack of any sort of acknowledgment that the 2 year backlog of content you have because you started in 2022 and therefore the game had so much content to a person who was drip fed this content on patch is just hilarious

I truly think that the WOW exodus happening in ShB and EW being ShB 2.0 is the worst accidental coincidence this game ever experienced because there is just too many people who never experienced SB and so think this half baked melting pot of nothing e thot simulator is all the game has ever been

---

What happened a decade ago really doesn't matter.

The game has changed since then.

The development team has changed since then.

The player base has changed since then.

What does matter? Are you having fun is what matters.

Your choice to keep paying for the game even though you're not having fun anymore.

Mobile games are probably the biggest offenders in regards to shoving microtransactions in someone's face. Many bombard players with multiple layers of pop ups advertising cash shop sales the moment they open them. Some have even gone as far as to put ads for stuff outside the game itself in banners and pop ups inside the game.

As for kickstarting a game. That's been shown as a hit and miss. There's been some good things that have come from it. However at the same time there's been what has essentially resulted in pretty much being a scam as well. You've also got titles that started as basically an ongoing beta while still being developed so the devs can tune the game based on player feedback while still working on the game content. Warframe is an example of a game that did this and I did end up buying a founders package for the game when it was preparing to leave it's beta status behind. However you have games like I think it was Star Citizen that feel like they've been on kickstarter/crowdfunding beta for like 20 years with no actual release in sight and just periodically drops whale bait when they need or want more money.

https://i.ibb.co/wWkFGj8/forever.gif

Anyone else remember when Yoshi P himself said this?

https://i.redd.it/f6z8yx01ns971.png

What different times...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Anyone else remember when Yoshi P himself said this?

https://i.redd.it/f6z8yx01ns971.png

What different times...

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We remember. We remember a time when CBU3 would reflect on their past mistakes and learn from them.
How the world has changed in 10 years.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2645/image.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

What happened a decade ago really doesn't matter.

The game has changed since then.

The development team has changed since then.

The player base has changed since then.

What does matter? Are you having fun is what matters.

Your choice to keep paying for the game even though you're not having fun anymore.

---

I’m legit impressed by how utterly and completely you missed my point

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m legit impressed by how utterly and completely you missed my point

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you're literally talking to this

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/d...3fc0_96x96.jpg

we're basically in the churning mists at moghome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Anyone else remember when Yoshi P himself said this?

https://i.redd.it/f6z8yx01ns971.png

What different times...

---

We remember. That dev team is gone. At least in spirit. When Yoshi-P arrived at the scene of 1.0, he decided to take a risk and destroy the entire world to start from the ground up, rather than trying to salvage what was left. He went with a completely different formula from the old school FFXI and brought his vision to the table. Can anyone imagine him or the devs doing anything like that now? He can't even deviate from his precious tomestone formula. They have become complacent in their success, like many companies. They must ask themselves why take any risks at all when the playerbase is staying. Unhappy perhaps, but staying and paying all the same. Their endgame formula of the tomestone/book grind has not changed in 10 years, but their attitude towards the playerbase and willingness to engage with them certainly has. I have to wonder if the devs themselves have any love left for this game or if it has waned after these 10 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Monetization has nothing to do with whether a game is fun. It influences what you're willing to pay.

---

Did you... not even read the post of mine that you responded to? The one which directly outlined how monetization is directly affecting the player experience and entertainment factor?

So, the only part of that whole thing I shook my head at was monetization of OPTIONAL ITEMS.

I seem to remember yoshi p mentioning that mogstation sales payed for the expansion of the NA data center. Most likely payed for EU and oceanic as well.

It's not like that money slips into rich guys account. It's repurposed for the game. Also again....OPTIONAL.

None of those items are p2w items. Some might say fenrir is but honestly, a mount with 1 star ground speed don't make a difference at all.

People also pretty free to spend their money how they want. If they decide they wanna pay for some virtual outfit then cool. The could just as easily pay $2 for a red dot on call of duty or 40 for a season pass...or in the case of BDO...literally have to use cash shop to even keep playing.

Cash shop isn't this big boogie man you think it is. You don't like it, don't use it. Your right. Just like it's mine to spend 30 on some mount lol.

I also don't see how it's ruining player experience and entertainment factor in the least. I would more think the myriad of venue shouts and ads in pf would ruin the entertainment factor over an optional item not even needed to be purchased to play lol.

I think thay whole part is probably you guessing or hanging with a group of likeminded individuals who make up such a small percentage it's not funny.

This post is exactly how I feel about the game and CBU3 as a developer lately after beating FF16. I've also cancelled my sub with 3 days left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Monetization has nothing to do with whether a game is fun.

---

This sentence right here is just inherently wrong. Monetization and fun are inherently linked, not because people find paying fun or not, but because the C-Suite at the game company is incentivized to get you to cough up as much money as possible. Usually this is by doing things like making it so you can't re-earn event items and instead putting them in the shop, or drip feeding patch content so that people stay subbed. Ever wonder why x.x5 patches, with more content, are often a month or two AFTER the main line patch? It's not because they are worried about everyone going through it too fast, it's so they can milk more money out of you that you might not have spent otherwise.

In other words, the developers are actively incentivized to make the game LESS fun if it means making the company MORE profit. And they often do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

This sentence right here is just inherently wrong. Monetization and fun are inherently linked, not because people find paying fun or not, but because the C-Suite at the game company is incentivized to get you to cough up as much money as possible. Usually this is by doing things like making it so you can't re-earn event items and instead putting them in the shop, or drip feeding patch content so that people stay subbed. Ever wonder why x.x5 patches, with more content, are often a month or two AFTER the main line patch? It's not because they are worried about everyone going through it too fast, it's so they can milk more money out of you that you might not have spent otherwise.

In other words, the developers are actively incentivized to make the game LESS fun if it means making the company MORE profit. And they often do.

---

I feel like you are trying to badly argue this point. This is a ongoing MMO. Of course they going to drip out content but with this game you know it's coming.

Although your one point is just funny since yoshi p himself literally told people it was ok to drop your sub if you want a break.

The people who generally don't are the ones afraid to lose some virtual property they aren't using anyways in most cases. The rest of the population got no issue dropping their sub and coming back when they want.

As for event stuff. You don't see very many people up in arms about it hitting cash shop. Probably because they know it's optional and they don't need it with the literal myriad of housing items and whatnot in the game already.

Again...no leg to stand on because if you somehow see a connection between monetization and fun...you probably should quit all video games.

You buy a game to enjoy your way...season pass...monetized..lol. like at least it's not predatory like EA lootboxes or genshin impact ganja or even BDO cash shop

Now thinking. Most people buy a game because it's fun for them. All gaming companies do stuff to have people spend more money. It's still fun so I can see the link there for stuff like season passes and stuff like that but we have expacs we pay for.

The optional shop doesn't bring enjoyment like that to people really. You got some who don't wanna put work in and got a way to skip..so convenience but not fun...you got mounts but meh once you start collecting you quickly find your favorites.

You got glam
..which some pieces ok but mainly no. Most stuff just is meh and you can get alot nicer things in game if you take the time.

You got orchestrates..which you can get alot in game but if you want the funky music of pulse or some orchestra then cool. You got dyes which meh..you can get in game a few ways.

You got other stuff too but unlike a season pass....ya don't need to get it. There's no incentive to really buy any of it. Especially with their pricing Most of the time. I more often then not see people complain and wait for sales but there's lots of others who do spend on it. Mainly for fantasias though but I think they addicted or can't make up mind on a race. I can't decide on that.

If you don't game for fun then what do you game for? What purpose do you have to play a game if you aren't enjoying it. Every game is flawed in some way. This one isn't perfect but as I'm guessing you been here a long time...must still find it enjoyable despite all that was said.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Part of why Baldur's Gate 3 has turned out so well is that it's been a playable game for almost 3 years and had been in development 4 years prior to that. Their kickstarter supporters have had access to the game since 2020 to give them feedback prior to the initial release. It's difficult for a company to have a product in development for that amount of time unless they get the financial backing before release of the game. Such backing is a risk since you don't know the game will ever be released. It's worked out in the case of BG3 but how many other games have gone the same route and either failed to end up released or are still in development testing after a decade?

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This is an important point to make. Most of the game has been available for years now with this early access. And a lot of friends I've seen playing it are reporting bugs, sometimes game-breaking, in the final act. Which wasn't something that was available since they didn't want to spoil the entire story. So the pieces that were available have been able to have many outside eyes on them with a lot of feedback over years of availability. Larian's done a fantastic job, but that does need to be recognized and taken into account when comparing the game with others.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Did you... not even read the post of mine that you responded to? The one which directly outlined how monetization is directly affecting the player experience and entertainment factor?

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I did read it and I disagreed with your conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

This sentence right here is just inherently wrong. Monetization and fun are inherently linked, not because people find paying fun or not, but because the C-Suite at the game company is incentivized to get you to cough up as much money as possible. Usually this is by doing things like making it so you can't re-earn event items and instead putting them in the shop, or drip feeding patch content so that people stay subbed. Ever wonder why x.x5 patches, with more content, are often a month or two AFTER the main line patch? It's not because they are worried about everyone going through it too fast, it's so they can milk more money out of you that you might not have spent otherwise.

In other words, the developers are actively incentivized to make the game LESS fun if it means making the company MORE profit. And they often do.

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Again, I disagree. A game can still be fun despite questionable monetization.

Nothing says you must buy everything.

Nothing says a game must be a babysitter keeping you occupied 16 hours a day every day.

Just maybe the problem many of the posters have around here are setting their expectations too high for what a game must be.

For those of you enjoying BG3 right now, what are you going to do when you've completed the story after 120-140 hours of play time? Complain that there wasn't more content?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I did read it and I disagreed with your conclusions.



Again, I disagree. A game can still be fun despite questionable monetization.

Nothing says you must buy everything.

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Except when what is being released in game is subpar compared to what's being released on the store, then it's less fun.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

Except when what is being released in game is subpar compared to what's being released on the store, then it's less fun.

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I don't see everything being released in the game as being subpar to what's on the store.


I understand that you feel differently but that's subjective. Everyone has a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't see everything being released in the game as being subpar to what's on the store.


I understand that you feel differently but that's subjective. Everyone has a different opinion.

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I mean it is fact though at least in the glam department, compare the street glam for example to what we get in game, yeah, the quality is on the mog shop, not in game.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/d...3fc0_96x96.jpg

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

Except when what is being released in game is subpar compared to what's being released on the store, then it's less fun.

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The store in FF is about as low quality as a lot of the stuff in-game, to be fair though.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The store in FF is about as low quality as a lot of the stuff in-game, to be fair though.

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Depends which item tbh, the street glam for example is very nice, there's quite a few nice dresses too like all the eastern stuff amongst other things.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How does that work out when you've got 2 players attacking the same creature and one player is set to Very Easy and the other is set to Nightmare (or whatever the difficulty modes are named)?

It sounds a bit like WoW's scale to player level system which didn't work out particularly well (at least in my opinion). The net effect was lower level players frequently ended up more powerful than the higher level players depending on what gear was equipped (think Crystal Tower types of power difference).

Or are most open world zones in LotRO so empty that the chances of encountering another player are small? I remember giving it a try back around 2015 and was turned off by the predatory paywalls. Even then I was encountering fewer players in the open world than I do here. I have no clue how good (or bad) it is now.
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I am honestly not sure how it is working in practice. I have just been reading/watching videos the last week or so on it. I left LOTRO years ago when they went through a period where they were pushing too far into pay to win for my comfort. I just feel like if they can really make this work it can be a game changer for MMORPGs as players could pretty much dial in the difficulty they want.

I was around for the beginnings of Scale to player in WoW. Yeah it didn't work I agree. That is why I said if LOTRO has actually found a solution it is a game changer. My home is here in FFXIV so I won't be going back to LOTRO but it is something worth watching.