[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Doesn't Lyse still catch crap for that? lol

Not saying the sentiment is wrong. Just an observation.

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Damn near everything Lyse 'catches crap for' is something a male character does to a much greater degree with no protests. And yet for some reason Lyse gets the hate.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Damn near everything Lyse 'catches crap for' is something a male character does to a much greater degree with no protests. And yet for some reason Lyse gets the hate.

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I don’t think gender has anything to do with it lol. If we want to bring gender into it we can bring up how the men are constantly the butt of every joke with the women making fun of them.

It's just another blatant attempt to muddy the water, I suspect.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, there's videos criticising the writing around Zenos and Hermes respectively on the channel so the attempts to pretend as if it's a case of only female characters ever receiving criticism is disingenuous.

To say nothing of the fact that of those involved in the video project, a fair amount are women themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Damn near everything Lyse 'catches crap for' is something a male character does to a much greater degree with no protests. And yet for some reason Lyse gets the hate.

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You’re not exactly wrong, people like that exist. That said, hien actually “catches crap” too, though not to the same extent. People take issue of him “using” the au ra clans to fight the empire.

Hien's an interesting one in the Lyse discussion, because he gets off scot-free for the 'flaws' he shares with Lyse that she does get attacked for (namely, 'getting a leadership position and allegedly taking credit for victories despite a lack of any credentials beyond birthright'), but actually does get criticized for entirely different things.

I'm hardly trying to 'muddy the waters', I'm just so bored of the Same Damn Argument that's been going on since Endwalker released that I'm only really responding to posts I find interesting, which are often the more tangential ones. I'm not trying to extend the sexism angle to the Venat debate, mostly because I know how to read a room well enough to know when a discussion point like that isn't welcome. I'd caution that women are hardly immune from holding sexist viewpoints against women, but beyond that, I don't think anyone here is interested in having that conversation on any side of it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's just another blatant attempt to muddy the water, I suspect.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, there's videos criticising the writing around Zenos and Hermes respectively on the channel so the attempts to pretend as if it's a case of only female characters ever receiving criticism is disingenuous.

To say nothing of the fact that of those involved in the video project, a fair amount are women themselves.

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Cleretic wasn't even talking about the channel and the videos on it when making that comment, though. I think your blinders might be on a bit on this one
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Originally Posted by Kozh

You’re not exactly wrong, people like that exist. That said, hien actually “catches crap” too, though not to the same extent. People take issue of him “using” the au ra clans to fight the empire.

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They do? Huh. Takes all types, I guess. I never had a problem with either character and like both. Once I tuned back in to the fandom after finishing Stormblood, the flack Lyse received surprised me, but I could understand maybe some people put off by her personality and predisposed to look for flaws. Hien's just a bro, though.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Cleretic wasn't even talking about the channel and the videos on it when making that comment, though. I think your blinders might be on a bit on this one
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Nah i think it has to do with comments Cleretic has made in the past about the channel and it’s videos though. Or claiming in the past a lot of Venat hate is purely due to misogyny, which is hilariously deflecting and yes, muddying the waters.

I do have to chuckle at the idea that Venat had a particularly "polarizing reception" by folks outside of the Lore forums, when she very obviously did not. It just comes off as very disingenuous, weapons grade echo chamber copium.

I'd still consider it polarizing in the sense that she seems to be a like/hate character despite it being lopsidedly in favor of the former.

Hermes is similar though the distribution is appropriately balanced for how he's treated by the narrative.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'd still consider it polarizing in the sense that she seems to be a like/hate character despite it being lopsidedly in favor of the former.

Hermes is similar though the distribution is appropriately balanced for how he's treated by the narrative.

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That isn't really polarizing then. That's just a small group of people who really didn't like and have brought it up time and time again for years, even in places where nobody is talking about the sundering.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

That isn't really polarizing then. That's just a small group of people who really didn't like and have brought it up time and time again for years, even in places where nobody is talking about the sundering.

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I’d say it’s pretty polarizing when you have defenders of the character going all over on other social media sites insulting bashing and harassing others simply for their views on the story. If it wasn’t so polarizing why would they feel the need to defend it so harshly?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’d say it’s pretty polarizing when you have defenders of the character going all over on other social media sites insulting bashing and harassing others simply for their views on the story. If it wasn’t so polarizing why would they feel the need to defend it so harshly?

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Harsh criticism of something people passionately enjoy will get an equally harsh rebuttal.

Just look at how criticism of Amaurotine civilization gets treated.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Harsh criticism of something people passionately enjoy will get an equally harsh rebuttal.

Just look at how criticism of Amaurotine civilization gets treated.

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I’m not sure i would consider some of the personal threats and insults i’ve seen Venat defenders use as “equally harsh rebuttal” but you do you.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Just look at how criticism of Amaurotine civilization gets treated.

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How 'bout the part where people espousing positive views of Amaurot received an amount of backlash that can really only be described as outright comical? 'Cause mate, I know people that got some really nasty in-game tells over this crap, and some of it included (admittedly non-credible, thankfully) threats of violence. Hell, I got death threats over stuff I wrote on here. Politely disagreeing with people is fine no matter which side of whatever arbitrary divide you happen to be standing on. Unfortunately, a portion of this game's community has a very nasty habit of taking things to completely unnecessary extremes. This subject generates salt almost as well as Venat.

Anywho. Setting internet people and their weirdly aggressive saltlord tendencies aside, I'd say this thread by itself has done a pretty good job of making it evident Venat was indeed polarizing, never mind the video.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’d say it’s pretty polarizing when you have defenders of the character going all over on other social media sites insulting bashing and harassing others simply for their views on the story. If it wasn’t so polarizing why would they feel the need to defend it so harshly?

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I've only ever seen your side of this "debate" doing that. Your side does complain a lot about being downvoted on places like reddit but that's simply because when you all are asked why you don't like the character, you either make up some stuff or forget key moments that addressed the issue a lot of you claim to have. When this is pointed out some of you get really rude. Not to mention some of you bring up these arguments again and again in places that aren't talking about the issue. I've yet to see any and I'm sure you have some screenshots just like yall do to try and defend your points right?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I've only ever seen your side of this "debate" doing that. Your side does complain a lot about being downvoted on places like reddit but that's simply because when you all are asked why you don't like the character, you either make up some stuff or forget key moments that addressed the issue a lot of you claim to have. When this is pointed out some of you get really rude. Not to mention some of you bring up these arguments again and again in places that aren't talking about the issue. I've yet to see any and I'm sure you have some screenshots just like yall do to try and defend your points right?

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I try my best to be polite as possible and stress I do understand why people like Venat but I personally find issues with her ideology and actions. I have in turn been called "A misogynistic man" "Unable to understand context /cutscene skipper" A weird one from that very video thread that got deleted of "SJW" and told I am an egotist for pointing out I find Venat in the same vain as clear villains that came before her. I have been told several times I don't speak for everyone even though I stress I am well aware of that and preface everything with "in my own opinion". I wouldn't exactly call it harassment but it sure as heck gets annoying especially when I am lumped with a group I am not a part of for my own independent thoughts. I have never joined anything relating to FFXIV's story as I personally felt I would rather focus on what I enjoy then mire myself in what I dislike but seeing the discussion come up I chimed in hoping no future story will ever be like this again in what I perceive to be an extreme narrative dissonance in regards to one character. My continued posting is because simply the quality of everything else I see as lacking.

As for why I don't like Venat I simply look at her actions much and can't go "This is different from Thordan lying to an entire populace, Venat had reason to not tell anyone and lie to them via omission" "This is different from Illberd killing hundreds to free his homeland, Venat knew these deaths were needed to secure the future". I simply can't bring myself to think any of that is okay given what came prior. I do understand where Venat is coming from and yes in her eyes this was probably the best solution but I simply can't say she would ever be what I consider justified or good. I do hope for the sake of everyone here we just leave this in Endwalker forever and move onto a less polarizing plot. I take no joy in posting stuff like this after all but I feel it is needed to avoid this in the future.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

That isn't really polarizing then. That's just a small group of people who really didn't like and have brought it up time and time again for years, even in places where nobody is talking about the sundering.

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Many that disliked the story have long since left and moved on to more enjoyable stories. Others generally remain quiet because they are tired of being told their opinions are "wrong" "don't matter" "don't exist" or worse, receiving actual threats. The conversations are not worth bothering with since the same (often provably wrong) 'facts' are parroted to justify opinions that 'Venat was right' and are frankly dull at best.

As for "even in places where nobody is talking about the sundering", this is the lore forum which is precisely the right place for these discussion, as is anywhere else to be honest. No one forced you to take part in this conversation, yet here are the usual (from what I can see) tiny group of people yelling about how 'wrong' anyone is if they do anything other than praise the story when it comes to Venat.

And in case you need a definition:
polarize | ˈpəʊlərʌɪz | (British also polarise)
verb
1 [with object] Physics restrict the vibrations of (a transverse wave, especially light) wholly or partially to one direction: some of the light is polarized so that it vibrates in only one plane | (as adjective polarized) : polarized laser light | (as adjective polarizing) : a polarizing microscope.
2 [with object] Physics cause (something) to acquire polarity: the electrode is polarized in aqueous solution.
3 divide or cause to divide into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs: [no object] : the cultural sphere has polarized into two competing ideological positions.

Words have meanings. Attempting to portray "polarizing" as signifying 'only large and/or equal groups disagreeing' is simply incorrect and is a terrible attempt at undermining another player's (valid) opinion.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I've only ever seen your side of this "debate" doing that. Your side does complain a lot about being downvoted on places like reddit but that's simply because when you all are asked why you don't like the character, you either make up some stuff or forget key moments that addressed the issue a lot of you claim to have. When this is pointed out some of you get really rude. Not to mention some of you bring up these arguments again and again in places that aren't talking about the issue. I've yet to see any and I'm sure you have some screenshots just like yall do to try and defend your points right?

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There’s already been screenshots posted. Of certain outspoken posters on here going and ranting about people disliking Venat, claiming misogyny amongst other things etc. You say people make up stuff or forget key moments yet we’ve provided countless info from in game sources to refute your claims, now with videos. So yeah, i’m sorry but when you have people seriously trying to use the issue of misogyny to defend their argument of a video game waifu there’s already a lost argument there. Amongst other worse insults used.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

Many that disliked the story have long since left and moved on to more enjoyable stories. Others generally remain quiet because being told their opinions are "wrong" "don't matter" "don't exist" or worse, receive actual threats. This is frankly exhausting and the conversations are not worth bothering with since they parrot the same (often provably wrong) 'facts' to justify their opinions that 'Venat was right'.

As for "even in places where nobody is talking about the sundering", this is the lore forum which is precisely the right place for these discussion, as is anywhere else to be honest. No one forced you to take part in this conversation, yet here are the usual (from what I can see) tiny group of people yelling about how 'wrong' anyone is if they do anything other than praise the story when it comes to Venat.

And in case you need a definition:
polarize | ˈpəʊlərʌɪz | (British also polarise)
verb
1 [with object] Physics restrict the vibrations of (a transverse wave, especially light) wholly or partially to one direction: some of the light is polarized so that it vibrates in only one plane | (as adjective polarized) : polarized laser light | (as adjective polarizing) : a polarizing microscope.
2 [with object] Physics cause (something) to acquire polarity: the electrode is polarized in aqueous solution.
3 divide or cause to divide into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs: [no object] : the cultural sphere has polarized into two competing ideological positions.

Words have meanings. Attempting to portray "polarizing" as signifying 'only large and/or equal groups disagreeing' is simply incorrect and is a terrible attempt at undermining another player's (valid) opinion.

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Many of those people have posted in this very thread. It's always been a very small number of them and they tend to show up every time the subject comes up saying the same things and round and round the circle goes. People saying you're wrong when you forget key moments is just how it is. Nothing to be hurt over Unless you believe one can have an opinion about a fact. You're perfectly allowed to believe that she didn't do enough, that's an opinion to have. However most of you don't voice it that way. They say she did nothing. Which just isn't true.

They are derailing threads you don't show up in a thread about say. what happened in Ultima Thule and go on and on about Venat. That's not on topic so no, probably keep to the topic of the thread and don't change it. This happens across multiple sites and it's always the Venat dislikers that do it From what I and many people in this thread can attest to. I've yet to see the side you claim there is.

Most people would use that word for a handful of people with a strong opinion about an event in a game millions have played. Call it polarizing on these specific forums, sure but in the wider community? Not at all.
Words have meaning, context does as well.

@above. I've been through the thread the some guy saying that the person said something along those lines in a completely different thread or where ever it was said isn't proof of anything. They just said it and you believe them I guess. From what I've seen none of your in game screenshots support your side and again, you leave out the other stuff that disproves your side. Hence why people say you make stuff up. Lies by omission they're called.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Many of those people have posted in this very thread. It's always been a very small number of them and they tend to show up every time the subject comes up saying the same things and round and round the circle goes. People saying you're wrong when you forget key moments is just how it is. Nothing to be hurt over Unless you believe one can have an opinion about a fact. You're perfectly allowed to believe that she didn't do enough, that's an opinion to have. However most of you don't voice it that way. They say she did nothing. Which just isn't true.

They are derailing threads you don't show up in a thread about say. what happened in Ultima Thule and go on and on about Venat. That's not on topic so no, probably keep to the topic of the thread and don't change it. This happens across multiple sites and it's always the Venat dislikers that do it From what I and many people in this thread can attest to. I've yet to see the side you claim there is.

Most people would use that word for a handful of people with a strong opinion about an event in a game millions have played. Call it polarizing on these specific forums, sure but in the wider community? Not at all.
Words have meaning, context does as well.

@above. I've been through the thread the some guy saying that the person said something along those lines in a completely different thread or where ever it was said isn't proof of anything. They just said it and you believe them I guess. From what I've seen none of your in game screenshots support your side and again, you leave out the other stuff that disproves your side. Hence why people say you make stuff up. Lies by omission they're called.

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Oh yes none of our in game screenshots support our side. Gee guess the videos with literal in game cutscenes supporting our points don’t exist or don’t count. It’s not just that they’ve said it and i believe them. I’ve seen the screenshots of evidence. I’ve seen the actual posts lol. It’s not hard to find whatsoever especially when said person literally uses our names in the posts itself.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Oh yes none of our in game screenshots support our side. Gee guess the videos with literal in game cutscenes supporting our points don’t exist or don’t count. It’s not just that they’ve said it and i believe them. I’ve seen the screenshots of evidence. I’ve seen the actual posts lol. It’s not hard to find whatsoever especially when said person literally uses our names in the posts itself.

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The hour long video is full of bias and was made in bad faith. Someone in this thread already explained to you why that was so I don't feel the need to repeat it. Again, when you twist and or leave out things that give a bigger context to what is being said is no different from lying. Elidabus as a character was fond of doing that. Kinda the reason he was my favorite among the three unsundered.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Many of those people have posted in this very thread. It's always been a very small number of them and they tend to show up every time the subject comes up saying the same things and round and round the circle goes. People saying you're wrong when you forget key moments is just how it is. Nothing to be hurt over Unless you believe one can have an opinion about a fact. You're perfectly allowed to believe that she didn't do enough, that's an opinion to have. However most of you don't voice it that way. They say she did nothing. Which just isn't true.

They are derailing threads you don't show up in a thread about say. what happened in Ultima Thule and go on and on about Venat. That's not on topic so no, probably keep to the topic of the thread and don't change it. This happens across multiple sites and it's always the Venat dislikers that do it From what I and many people in this thread can attest to. I've yet to see the side you claim there is.

Most people would use that word for a handful of people with a strong opinion about an event in a game millions have played. Call it polarizing on these specific forums, sure but in the wider community? Not at all.
Words have meaning, context does as well.

@above. I've been through the thread the some guy saying that the person said something along those lines in a completely different thread or where ever it was said isn't proof of anything. They just said it and you believe them I guess. From what I've seen none of your in game screenshots support your side and again, you leave out the other stuff that disproves your side. Hence why people say you make stuff up. Lies by omission they're called.

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This can be said to both side of the argument. Only a small portion of the player base even talk in the Lore forum and with reddit it the only place where you can have a serious public discussion about the topic. It hard to say ''Oh well the majority of people liked this'' when the majority of the player don't pay that much attention to the lore or just don't care that much.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Many of those people have posted in this very thread. It's always been a very small number of them and they tend to show up every time the subject comes up saying the same things and round and round the circle goes. People saying you're wrong when you forget key moments is just how it is. Nothing to be hurt over Unless you believe one can have an opinion about a fact. You're perfectly allowed to believe that she didn't do enough, that's an opinion to have. However most of you don't voice it that way. They say she did nothing. Which just isn't true.

They are derailing threads you don't show up in a thread about say. what happened in Ultima Thule and go on and on about Venat. That's not on topic so no, probably keep to the topic of the thread and don't change it. This happens across multiple sites and it's always the Venat dislikers that do it From what I and many people in this thread can attest to. I've yet to see the side you claim there is.

Most people would use that word for a handful of people with a strong opinion about an event in a game millions have played. Call it polarizing on these specific forums, sure but in the wider community? Not at all.
Words have meaning, context does as well.

@above. I've been through the thread the some guy saying that the person said something along those lines in a completely different thread or where ever it was said isn't proof of anything. They just said it and you believe them I guess. From what I've seen none of your in game screenshots support your side and again, you leave out the other stuff that disproves your side. Hence why people say you make stuff up. Lies by omission they're called.

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As someone who does check on stuff on social media for stuff like my Island Sanctuary workshops I will say the fandom in general is terrible about dragging ANY topic off course. Go post a fanart of Zenos/Emet/Hermes/Lyse/Minfillia on reddit and see how quickly "Cool art still a *insert negative descriptor here* character" happens on almost all of them. Let's not even start on if you pick something halfway meme-able as that descends quickly to whatever meme on any social media. That is just the way large fandoms are honestly. Again I am not trying to be in any way combative just making an observation as someone who has watched this community grow on the sidelines from HW onwards that as a community grows more discordance comes with it.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The hour long video is full of bias and was made in bad faith. Someone in this thread already explained to you why that was so I don't feel the need to repeat it. Again, when you twist and or leave out things that give a bigger context to what is being said is no different from lying. Elidabus as a character was fond of doing that. Kinda the reason he was my favorite among the three unsundered.

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Bad faith. Quite a popular term you and others like to throw around when you merely disagree with something or someone that has you on the ropes. It's kind of sad imo that instead of being able to have an open debate about something you and your ilk just flail around screaming "bad faith bad faith bad faith!" Its a bit funny to me too because it stifles discussion to simply equate discussions to that, yet you're the ones who go around saying *we're* the ones doing it. Quite telling honestly.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Bad faith. Quite a popular term you and others like to throw around when you merely disagree with something or someone that has you on the ropes. It's kind of sad imo that instead of being able to have an open debate about something you and your ilk just flail around screaming "bad faith bad faith bad faith!" Its a bit funny to me too because it stifles discussion to simply equate discussions to that, yet you're the ones who go around saying *we're* the ones doing it. Quite telling honestly.

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Both sides throw the bad faith flag. Also why are you trying to start fights? Why the rude replies even? There's no reason for the use of "you and your ilk". Seriously the person this argument you've started over wasn't even commenting on the main topic. They might have muddied the waters as you call it and yet here you are doing the same and derailing the thread even more. I'm fairly certain we all know why another poster is sensitive about the person who posted the video. Or at least those who remember details they let slip in another thread a long time ago. Anyway I'm fairly certain people have used the same evidence to claim the opposite considering said topic. I also am fairly certain that if the point of the video was to change anyone here's mind said poster would have a better chance at winning the powerball than doing such.

I see constantly accusations of "bad faith" and "bias" getting thrown around when all I see being done is people stating things as they are and quoting the story/interviews.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Both sides throw the bad faith flag. Also why are you trying to start fights? Why the rude replies even? There's no reason for the use of "you and your ilk". Seriously the person this argument you've started over wasn't even commenting on the main topic. They might have muddied the waters as you call it and yet here you are doing the same and derailing the thread even more. I'm fairly certain we all know why another poster is sensitive about the person who posted the video. Or at least those who remember details they let slip in another thread a long time ago. Anyway I'm fairly certain people have used the same evidence to claim the opposite considering said topic. I also am fairly certain that if the point of the video was to change anyone here's mind said poster would have a better chance at winning the powerball than doing such.

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Sanna, please. You always come to rush to the defense of these people time and time again purely because you agree with them despite them constantly insulting and talking down to others, i’m merely calling it out. The fact the poster i was speaking to tried to say the video was done in bad faith when it’s literally videos talking about in game events is beyond ridiculous.

Not only is it ridiculous but it also downplays the time and effort put into the video. Him and yes, his ilk aka the people who have insulted us nonstop here and on other platforms keep trying to accuse the videos viewers and subscribers of being “puppets.” I will say however all in all they have been successful. Countless people have come forward thanking the poster for the videos, giving them an actual sage space to speak(because it’s obviously not safe here) and for actually being willing to call out horrible writing.

Hundreds of subscribers,likes,and views based on something that supposedly isn’t “polarizing.” The fact of the matter is they’re scrambling to find inaccurate reasons as to why the videos are getting the traffic they are and why more and more people are coming out of the woodwork to question Venat’s actions and the actions of the writers. So i’d suggest you truly take some time to understand what’s been said or done on both sides before quickly coming to the defense of them, especially with the things they’ve said and done being associated with them isn’t it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I see constantly accusations of "bad faith" and "bias" getting thrown around when all I see being done is people stating things as they are and quoting the story/interviews.

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Till you watch the video and hear things like "I wish we got to see how Elidbus tried to mediate. But he has agency and you can't have anyone like that around Venat." I'm paraphrasing that as I'm not going back to watch the that section but it happens right near the beginning of the third sacrifice sections in the time stamps So yea the video isn't acting in good faith and I'm sure there are plenty more lines in it's hour long run time since this entire argument is basically boils down to like 3 cutscenes within the game.

Acting in bad faith is a pretty reasonable thing to do. There's a difference between not liking the direction something took and giving criticism about it and lines like that. Both sides throw it around but only one makes it really easy to tell.

@above I've not insulted you So maybe don't go trying to bite my head off for no reason, please? You claim this person is running to my defense and really that's kinda what you're doing. Pretty much anytime the topic of Venat comes up and you'll be there within minutes of the poster saying her name and talking about this stuff. Your nothing if not consistent. The video also has like 4k views and its about a topic that's going on 2 years old. I suppose this just makes your side's job easier somebody arranged all your points that were disproven, and argued to death already two years ago out into a nice little format that I'd imagine nobody on twitter or reddit is gonna watch when you derail another thread to talk about this stuff.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

@above I've not insulted you So maybe don't go trying to bite my head off for no reason, please? You claim this person is running to my defense and really that's kinda what you're doing. Pretty much anytime the topic of Venat comes up and you'll be there within minutes of the poster saying her name and talking about this stuff. Your nothing if not consistent. The video also has like 4k views and its about a topic that's going on 2 years old. I suppose this just makes your side's job easier somebody arranged all your points that were disproven, and argued to death already two years ago out into a nice little format that I'd imagine nobody on twitter or reddit is gonna watch when you derail another thread to talk about this stuff.

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Right, anytime ill be there. Wow its totally not like ive literally been unsubbed for the past year and a half and obviously havent been able to post on here. But sure yes ive immediately come rushing everytime someone posts something on here, i just circumvented the forum rules of not being able to post while unsubbed. Also funny how you act like im the only one that comes rushing in, when theres specific pro-venat ones that do the same. Again, this is the bias im talking about with you and Sanna.

I will say though again, its sad to see you try so hard to downplay the video when really i know it makes you all seethe, seeing all those comments of people agreeing and calling the character out for what she is. Also...not really sure how this is derailing when this thread is literally about a video calling out Venat's actions. You really do try so hard to silence people and stifle discussion its outright pathetic.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The hour long video is full of bias and was made in bad faith. Someone in this thread already explained to you why that was so I don't feel the need to repeat it. Again, when you twist and or leave out things that give a bigger context to what is being said is no different from lying. Elidabus as a character was fond of doing that. Kinda the reason he was my favorite among the three unsundered.

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True, there's simply massive bias and deliberately false interpretations of the story going on in the video, for example at 48:56 where she mentions Venat never even mentioning her plans when she clearly did at the end of Elpis?!!? How can you be so dishonest and just pull stuff out of your butt? If you wanna criticize something you have to actually deal with the matter at hand rather than making stuff up or ignoring what was said and deliberately misrepresenting it!

I'm glad we can just ignore the video. It's just a minority opinion anyway and minorities don't matter.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Right, anytime ill be there. Wow its totally not like ive literally been unsubbed for the past year and a half and obviously havent been able to post on here. But sure yes ive immediately come rushing everytime someone posts something on here, i just circumvented the forum rules of not being able to post while unsubbed. Also funny how you act like im the only one that comes rushing in, when theres specific pro-venat ones that do the same. Again, this is the bias im talking about with you and Sanna.

I will say though again, its sad to see you try so hard to downplay the video when really i know it makes you all seethe, seeing all those comments of people agreeing and calling the character out for what she is. Also...not really sure how this is derailing when this thread is literally about a video calling out Venat's actions. You really do try so hard to silence people and stifle discussion its outright pathetic.

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The victim mentality is real strong in you. You wanna be oppressed so bad. So you probably go to twitter or reddit and as soon as you resub you're already back here. Sorry I don't keep track of you. It just you pop up in all these threads without fail and when you're gone these threads don't pop up so much. Just seems to be the usual people on this forum in particular who refuse to drop this issue.

@above You must of missed the cutscene where she gave her reasonable reasons for not telling people. I'm guessing that was left out of the video entirely. Thankfully somebody on the first page posted the quote. Please go read it and then ask yourself why it probably isn't in that video. If they did include it they probably dismiss it in someway.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

@above You must of missed the cutscene where she gave her reasonable reasons for not telling people. I'm guessing that was left out of the video entirely. Thankfully somebody on the first page posted the quote. Please go read it and then ask yourself why it probably isn't in that video. If they did include it they probably dismiss it in someway.

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Yeah probably!

I have a hard time considering it a reasonable course of action to refrain telling the highest authorities on the star about an impending apocalypse when that's the very first thing the Scions did when they got back from the moon after Zodiark's destruction.

It does ultimately end up keeping the turning incidents from spiraling out of control in the less affected regions, as it had less to do with the sundered having any kind of innate despair tolerance and more just knowing what the heck was going on.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

@above You must of missed the cutscene where she gave her reasonable reasons for not telling people. I'm guessing that was left out of the video entirely.

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It was in the video, in the excuses section.
It begs to question why you're here talking about a video you aren't even interested in watching, then complain about derailment (and cherrypicking too!), ironic.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The victim mentality is real strong in you. You wanna be oppressed so bad. So you probably go to twitter or reddit and as soon as you resub you're already back here. Sorry I don't keep track of you. It just you pop up in all these threads without fail and when you're gone these threads don't pop up so much. Just seems to be the usual people on this forum in particular who refuse to drop this issue.

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It has nothing to do with me being the victim. It has everything to do with calling out you and the others like you who act this way towards anyone who criticizes anything including the story. The fact that you guys like to play the game of “your opinion is in the minority” when you guys have basically made people scared to even come out and say anything at all is ridiculous. That’s why videos like these are important because they give people a space they can actually be open and acknowledge the issues of the story without getting berated by you and others for having the “wrong opinion.” Especially when you try and critique things that are literally answered in the video. Both you and another poster have the issue of critiquing the video without even watching it but then asking for evidence for story points. Get real.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have a hard time considering it a reasonable course of action to refrain telling the highest authorities on the star about an impending apocalypse when that's the very first thing the Scions did when they got back from the moon after Zodiark's destruction.

It does ultimately end up keeping the turning incidents from spiraling out of control in the less affected regions, as it had less to do with the sundered having any kind of innate despair tolerance and more just knowing what the heck was going on.

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Venat had a very good and immediately understandable reason not to tell the Convocation, despite that being what she'd do in any other situation by her own admission: because she knows what their standard procedure is going to be to finding out this unknown, and that it's not going to help. (We also know this, because Emet does exactly their 'standard procedure' with Hermes and Meteion and only makes things worse.)

On the other hand, you might remember that there's a certain pretty big step between 'Zodiark dying' and 'coming back from the moon'! A step that proved that, while there's hardly a 'highest authority' on the Source, there is one that's a few steps ahead of the Scions on this particular subject, for which this whole subject is very much a known situation, and should probably be the first point of contact on getting back down there. Said authority is hardly an inherently trustworthy power, and proved that extremely clearly just a bit earlier in Endwalker, but given the scenario put in front of the Scions, were a clear first point of call.

Far from being parallel situations that should or could be handled in parallel ways, these are actually exact mirrors that require opposite approaches: Venat was faced with a situation that gave her clear evidence on who she couldn't contact, while the Scions were faced with a situation that gave them only one option as to who to contact. I don't find seeing the differences here especially complicated, and I'm sure you don't, either.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Venat had a very good and immediately understandable reason not to tell the Convocation, despite that being what she'd do in any other situation by her own admission: because she knows what their standard procedure is going to be to finding out this unknown, and that it's not going to help. (We also know this, because Emet does exactly their 'standard procedure' with Hermes and Meteion and only makes things worse.)

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Is this headcanon or has this been stated somewhere? If I remember correctly her stated reason was not that the convocation's regular procedure upon learning about the fate of the star would be of no help, but that she feared Hermes and that's percisely why she didn't resort to what she'd usually do. So basically Venat herself only didn't resort to standard procedure because Hermes was such a wildcard who wouldn't react predictably. Which of course doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Is this headcanon or has this been stated somewhere? If I remember correctly her stated reason was not that the convocation's regular procedure upon learning about the fate of the star would be of no help, but that she feared Hermes and that's percisely why she didn't resort to what she'd usually do. So basically Venat herself only didn't resort to standard procedure because Hermes was such a wildcard who wouldn't react predictably. Which of course doesn't make any sense.

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Headcanon, she explains her reasons plainly before her big cutscene (it would upset Hermes, it would create mass panic, she wants Hermes trial to be fair) and none of them have anything to do with a disagreement with their procedures. It's a baseless assumption.

All the times she mentions the Convocation her opinion of them seems mostly positive. She defends the Convocation in front of her followers in 5.2, she initially think it would be unlike her to oppose them when the WoL talks about her future, and I don't buy that her opinion would change after seeing Emet-Selch confront Hermes: she was, herself, a Convocation member for long enough to change multiple laws and earn the white robe.

I don't remember her showing disapproval with Emet-Selch's methods at any point. Until she hears Meteion's report (and have a visible reaction to it, because this is how the writers do it when they want to get a point across), she's on the same side as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Headcanon, she explains her reasons plainly before her big cutscene (it would upset Hermes, it would create mass panic, she wants Hermes trial to be fair) and none of them have anything to do with a disagreement with their procedures. It's a baseless assumption.

All the times she mentions the Convocation her opinion of them seems mostly positive. She defends the Convocation in front of her followers in 5.2, she initially think it would be unlike her to oppose them when the WoL talks about her future, and I don't buy that her opinion would change after seeing Emet-Selch confront Hermes: she was, herself, a Convocation member for long enough to change multiple laws and earn the white robe.

I don't remember her showing disapproval with Emet-Selch's methods at any point. Until she hears Meteion's report (and have a visible reaction to it, because this is how the writers do it when they want to get a point across), she's on the same side as everyone else.

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Be careful. That’s an awful lot of actual logic and in game evidence being used. Don’t get accused of bad faith now.

Are we calling a fairly educated guess based on what we know headcannon now? We know from the last Pandeamonium raid that in the Aetherial Sea Lahabreha after being told the part he played he practically says he'd probably would go and do the same actions with little to no regrets. She isn't hesitant to inform or work with the Convocation until Hermes goes off his rocker. Is all that Cleretic wrote verbatim and can be backed up by direct quotes by the game, short stories or Q&A? No, yet it's a very most likely scenario based on the facts we have of how things went down. Or her on going thought process on how to proceed as things unfolded. Considering how old she is and how rarely it's members seem to be replaced I doubt there's a great many who weren't apart of the Convocation by the time our past self was made Azem. The newest members that we know of are Azem, Emet-Slech, and Fandaniel post Elpis.