Yes. We experienced it at Vanaspati and while we got it under control, we're working under the constant threat that there will be more and more outbreaks if we don't get it under control. We experience another one and hear that more are rumbling away elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
I do agree that there wasn't enough high stakes maintained – at very least we should have seen the burning skies increasingly spread to Sharlayan and any other zones able to display it. (The complete lack of it makes me wonder whether the zones need special programming to support the unique weather, because it seems strange to not have done it to any older zones for what seems like a low-effort tension builder.)
But still, it established that background sense of urgency of what was in store for the planet if we didn't succeed.
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05-09-2023, 01:25 AMIscah
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05-09-2023, 01:39 AMRyuDragnierI had brought it up a while back, but I'm pretty sure the reason why the older zones never got it is not only because of spaghetti coded weather stuff, but also because the WoL has essentially fixed a lot of things that would have caused the despair in the previous regions. If you consider all previous sidequests to 6.0 canonically already done, we've done so much that it'd have required something super big to cause the doomsday despair weather in the old zones. A lot of the roles quests from 6.0 are us dealing with that remaining bit that could cause the despair, or at least alleviating it enough to buy time to take out Endsinger before things go out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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05-09-2023, 01:55 AMIscahTo some degree, yes, but we haven't solved every problem, and the whole prospect of the Final Days is introducing its own new type of stress.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
Also, it's not purely people's despair that triggers the phenomenon, but we've been told that it will increasingly spread.
In a different production of a similar plotline, it could be quite powerful to just gradually have one or two zones showing the effects of it, then spreading to adjacent zones until large patches of the world are affected.
Perhaps if it started with just the atmospheric effects and not the transformations, the writers would have been more inclined to show that first stage setting in. -
05-09-2023, 03:55 AMTheMightyMolluskThis kinda feels like a leftover problem from EW being condensed from two expansions into one. Imagine Zodiark being an X.3 trial boss, like Nidhogg at the Final Steps of Faith. We spent a bit of time getting our feet back on the ground and dealing with smaller-scale problems (after Nidhogg, we reunited with Yda and Papalymo and saw the beginnings of the Griffon's rebellion) before getting thrown back into the main conflict to build up the next expansion. In that context, the scenes with the loporrits would've been a cooldown patch before the Final Days hit full-force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
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05-09-2023, 04:08 AMKazharYes ironically the downtime moments wouldn't have be so unbearable if they told that story into multiple installments. Part of what makes the moon arc so jarring is that we went from 0 to 100 in a matter of a single hour with Zodiark, then it's filler time already.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
EW is a strange case of being both rushed and extremely slow at the same time. -
05-09-2023, 04:13 AMEisiThis would have been so glorious. Would have allowed them to introduce zones that are completely lost to the final days too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
And yeah the Loporrits (which I really liked but they unfortunately became stale after their introduction - the puddingway joke for example was amazing the first time around and just never reached even a quarter of that level again, puddingway zombie should have been cut) make a lot of sense as patch content.
Although I would have had Zodiark as the final boss of 6.0 - Anima being the level 89 boss. And then the first blasphemy as the .3 boss.
With Hermes being the first endwalker trial boss at 93, Hydaelyn the penultimate trial and Endsinger being the final trial at Level 100 which as a little bonus would feel just right in terms of finality. -
05-09-2023, 08:21 AMRenathrasSo basically:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
"WHAT IS THIS? A GAME?! YOU EXPECT TO BE HAPPY!?? UNLESS YOU'RE EDGY AND MISERABLE AND EVERYONE IS DYING - ESPECIALLY THAT ONE CHARACTER EVERYONE LOVES - IT SUCKS AND I HATE IT AND YOU SHOULD HATE IT TOO!!!!!!"
That's what I'm getting out of this post.
I absolutely agree the death fakes in Ultima were stupid - especially Estinian's, since it DID open the path but was kinda just "yeah, I'll die so you can all go on, that seems to be the theme", as well as Urianger going with Y'Shtola just because. Other games have done this "your party members have to split from you and might suffer" so much better with things like having to leave a party member behind in each room of a hard dungeon to hold a switch or something. There was zero reason to try to make us thing people were all dead. Had it just been Thancred, I'd have been worried, but after Estinian and especially after Y'Shtola and Urianger, I realized they weren't going to kill EVERYONE off, so at that point, it just became edgy for the sake of edgy, which is dumb as people like me who don't do edgy get annoyed and even people who like edge see through it and get annoyed.
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But this idea people have to be dying left in right in a "Rated M for Mature" blood in the snow and other people breaking from the sorrow way? I'm sorry, but no. That's stupid when it happens in movies (I HATE movies where they kill everyone off just to get cheep hearstring tugs), it's dumb in games, especially general audience games like this that are trying to give a message of hope anyway, and it almost never fits the story. It's VERY rare for a story to pull it off well, and then only sparingly.
No, we don't need more of that.
When I think of being heroic, I DON'T think of being held down powerless while my allies are slaughtered. In fact, the most annoying thing to me in games is when they gimp/hamstring with a slowwalk (you know the latest trend - Noctis on the frozen train in FFXV or Mickey in the Remind DLC of KH3 immediately spring to mind - despite how your character, no matter how tired or low on HP IN THE ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME OR FRANCHISE never has to slow down...Noctis gets kind of a pass until you realize the infinite sprint trick) and so on to prevent me acting ANNOYS me.
To me, heroic is Chrono WAAAY back in Chrono Trigger, when Marle is swept into the teleporter, grabbing her pendant and stepping onto the pad, braving a total unknown to save a friend. THAT is heroic, not being held down and being forced to watch someone more powerful than you kill everyone you care about. Moreover, the latter is just stupid:
If he's that powerful, then there'd be no reason to continue the quest since you would obviously have no hope of ever defeating him if you couldn't even stand up then.
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EDIT:
While I agree with a lot of this - SPECIFICALLY the moon I disagree with. I feel like it went on too long (the trying on clothes and stuff felt like filler), but after Zodiark and the big reveal, I had a real "Oh god...uh...now what?" moment that reminded me of the look on the WoL's face in the 2.0 cinematic when Bahamut gets out and then starts destroying things, IS sealed...but then breaks the seal and everyone's like "Uhhh...well...crapbaskets."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
The Lopporit bit on the moon did a good job on shifting the focus to "Okay, things seem bad, but maybe there's a way...", which a story NEEDS otherwise, it's just "Okay, I guess we give up now?" time.
To me, the biggest issues in the story were (a) how LONG that went on (as I said just above) and (b) Labyrinthos filler when you get back from Elpis. THAT one is what really destroyed the pacing to me. Urianger's reunion was definitely worth it, and frankly caught me completely by surprised (I was girding for the cliche "angry parents that yell a bunch but come around eventually", but then she goes total mom on Urianger and I was NOT prepared for that - I think that's why the scene hit me so hard and a lot of other people, too, because of how it not only subverted expectations, but did so in the most heart wrenching, touching way possible. Consequently proving something doesn't need to be edgy to tug at the heartstrings and have people emotionally invested...)
...but then we follow that with more goofing around under the obvious filler argument of "we have to wait for the engines to be finished", a very similar excuse used to talk to Crystal Exarch in ShB after getting to the top of the lift in Kholusia and working on the giant Talos. While it makes sense in a lore perspective, they could have put the "stay a night at the inn and talk to an ally" thing THERE instead to function as that narrative timeskip. It just felt like stupid busywork before we could continue the story, and it destroyed the pacing since this was coming off of the narrative A-Bomb that was "Venat's long and lonely walk" superimposed with the WoL's past adventures. There's this sense of urgency to move onto the final zone and finish the fight that is completely broken by mindless goofing around at a point in the story that UNLIKE Zodiark's death didn't need a breather moment. Moreover, much of Ultima Thul WAS a breather moment/filler, but it was FAR MORE INTERESTING as we learned about the history of two long-standing lore issues - the Dragons and the Omicrons - and were introduced to a new and interesting people, the Ea. It had a feel much like the latter part of Tempest where you get to Amoraut and get these massive lore dumps that are so interesting and informative of long-standing story questions that it makes up for the fact you SHOULD be rushing to the end before you "run out of time" and become a Light Warden.
That is, it breaks the pace, but in a way that's so interesting and story/lore revealing, it's acceptable. Something that doing random chores for random people in Labyrinthos didn't do. And while the latter was trying to, I think, paint a picture of "remember the common people who you can help in small ways and are fighting for", the problem with this is it's in the middle of "Oh, and there's a world ending doom that WILL KILL THEM ALL, but surely you have time to sit and listen to some of their personal problems for a FEW minutes, right?"
Makes me think of that scene in DBZ Abridged where Trunks returns to the future, hears about where the androids are attacking, but decides to finish his tea before going to fight them, only to arrive 5 seconds after the killed the civilian guy and saying "I...probably could have put that tea in a thermos and saved it for later..." That is, a situation where time is of the essence and the very person we're helping tie their shoe will die if we don't deal with the rather larger problem than their shoelace being untied.
.
Anyway, yeah, I think the Laby bit after Elpis was honestly the only part in the whole story (exception for Urianger's reunion, which was ABSOLUTELY good to have in the story/game) that I genuinely did NOT like. I didn't like the fake deaths in Ultima Thul (were they REALLY at all necessary? No.), but the only part I really think should have been cut was that "chores" part of Laby.
And yes, I did feel strongly about that. -
05-09-2023, 09:04 AMSannaR
Part of the Labyrinthos section is waiting for the special ore to be delivered so that they then can work on the engine. Most people we help are those working on things for the Ragnarok who are needing to have their minds put at ease as there is no time for a test flight. Some of the systems they don't know if they'll work the way they're supposed to. Or they need an able body that can quickly go get them something so they can finish the last touches for their work on the Ragnarok. Many are just worried that their calculations via slide rule or whatever aren't correct and just need the word from someone who's had to make those same calculations.
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05-09-2023, 09:49 AMVeyaAkemiI am just imagining Fandaniel being overly theatrical while telling a story, Lahabrea laughing the entire time for absolutely no reason, Elidibus just happy to be around, and Emet smiling the entire time but silently continuously formulating plans to kill each one of them as a coping mechanism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest
Gaia was invited, but she already had plans with Ryne. -
05-09-2023, 10:04 AMhagareobviously notQuote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
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05-09-2023, 10:07 AMEisiTo lose the one character everybody loves is a tautology, because that goes for every main character. It's part of the reason why it would hit so hard, it's tragic on a more personal level and a loss that can not be justified. But I do also believe that there is more that would come from a death like this than mere tragedy. It would have profound impact on the trajectory of the other characters as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
It was a story about war, despair, the end in multiple ways and that this scene in particular involved machiavellian hedonistic psychopaths and nihilists. A story about the end of all things, a story about the death of countless worlds. They didn't need to tell that tale, but you must hate Endwalker for its subject matter alone. You probably hated Quintus and Thavnair part II and the Dead Ends.
Because this is what I want from a story that wants to show me hope in spite of all this - I want it to show me the lowest point, to show me that yes, even there it is worth it to go on. That is true hope. And on an abstract level with the dead worlds and lost civilizations this is where the story went. Even with individual destinies of side characters it showed us. But on a personal level, it refused.
If you don't want character deaths, don't tell a story about the end and loss and despair, about a war-torn world and well, about death.
Not a position that I hold by the way. I just think that the WoL should have also "sacrificed" themselves at the end and lived through a dream sequence, a mystic tale about the end and their role in this story.Quote:
I absolutely agree the death fakes in Ultima were stupid
And so do I. I like deaths though, there is no substitute for it. It happens irl too and I like stories that dare go there and amidst deepest despair show you light everlasting. Some connection that even death might not sever.Quote:
I HATE movies where they kill everyone off just to get cheep hearstring tugs
The purpose of the bodyswap was to take away your powers so that you became a regular footsoldier. You were pretty heroic in the quest nontheless, but someone at that level simply can't touch an Ascian or a Zenos. That doesn't mean they are not a hero.Quote:
When I think of being heroic, I DON'T think of being held down powerless while my allies are slaughtered.
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05-09-2023, 01:53 PMRenathrasExcept on the last point:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisi
Agree to disagree.
.
Believe it or not, not EVERYONE dies in a war. Indeed, in some elite companies or groups, sometimes, NO ONE at all dies. People can also reach low points without literally everyone dying (or close to it) dying around them. Hope isn't "when things are dark and everyone has died, I press on", that's stoicism. And that's not even the only form of stoicism.
The story wasn't about the end and loss and despair. It was about how it WASN'T the end, how triumph prevented (most) loss, and about hope. It wasn't about a war-torn world and death, it as about building a future and life. The story was about the opposite of everything you seem to think it was about.
I don't care for deaths. There's enough death in reality, and there are LOTS of substitutes for death that make a compelling story. Indeed, death is arguably the cheapest and most pathetic way to try to score cheap heartstring points with people. It requires little effort other than killing someone, so much so, many things kill off a side character that no one even cares about but make all the characters in the story react as if we should (Avengers did this with Coulson's death, and while his character came into his own in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., when he died, everyone around me was like "Who is this character and why are we supposed to care about him?"). It's just such a cheap and lazy method of writing, I'm constantly shocked by people that think it's somehow the most masterful way to write drama.
Hell, someone being injured, especially if you don't know but suspect it may be permanent - Iggy being blinded in FFXV, for example - is much more of a gutpunch. Because the character is still there. You still see them, interact with them, etc, in their compromised state, and you know they were harmed (probably) by the bad guy but there's nothing you can do but press on despite that.
"no substitute for it"? ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is a substitute for it, and almost always BETTER than it, imo. -
05-09-2023, 04:02 PMTaleraRistainIf you mean us finding out Fandaniel wanted to restart the Final Days and die and take everyone with him, he told us that in pre-Endwalker when he brings Lunar Bahamut to the Royal Menagerie. I can't say I remembered it myself. My hubby is finally picking up pre-EW into EW MSQ with me and we just saw that cutscene.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
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05-09-2023, 04:10 PMTaleraRistainOr maybe sharing some Cup Noodles?Quote:
Originally Posted by BRVV
https://i.imgur.com/9QiXFYh.jpg -
05-09-2023, 07:41 PMBRVVLOOK! LOOK! OTHER FINAL FANTASY BAD! *monkey-scream*Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
In all seriousness: does this mean FFXIV can just be a mesh of every bad thing that ever was put in an FF story? Actually that might be the plan with the current writing. -
05-09-2023, 11:59 PMSannaRNah, I meant that his aim was to take out Zodiark. We didn't know what exactly the towers were meant for just that they were there and sending aether somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
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05-10-2023, 12:04 AMTheodric
I have a hunch that most people claiming to be 'against character death in a story' are specifically referring to the characters that they, themselves, prefer because it certainly doesn't seem like something that extends to the antagonists in which case they suddenly switch to 'there was no other way'.
I find stories with stakes to be compelling and a cast perpetually clad in plot armour is largely why I fell out of favour with the story as a whole. Interesting characters with doubts, flaws and hard decisions to make are slain but the ones who get handed every possible tool needed for victory are kept around and even brag about not having any scars afterwards. It's just very boring to me, especially when a healthy balance could be struck to appeal to a greater variety of personal tastes and preferences whilst also allowing room for the main cast to change and be replaced over time. -
05-10-2023, 12:32 AMdeston07The Point of End Walker is Hope not Dispare
Zenos has never had the goal to kill the WoL,
From the very first solo fight with Zenos to the (6.0) fight.
(I doubt Zenos is actually dead)
Zenos has always pushed the WoL to become stronger,
This was no different.
Allowing us to relive what zenos went through,
fighting as a weak imperial soldier to reclaim our body just as he did.
Although, our soul was not entirely moved from our body.
Only the conscious part of our soul was moved into the imperial.
Scions where rightly on guard when (you) walk up,
Y'shtola is instantly wary of who ever it is but
not confident due to corrupt Aether in the area.
In a prolonged fight Zenos would probably beat the Scions.
The Scions are not so weak they would cave that quickly.
The End of Shadow Bringers and early parts of End Walker story
prove that they are much stronger than before.
(Maybe you forgot they literally fought full primals in teams of two?
Just before End Walker started)
The goal of End Walker was Hope, Not despair.
Ultima thule was a perfect example of that,
The MSQ was short and precise in Ultima thule,
Naturally giving the feeling that there is no chance the scions stay dead,
or at the very least things will work out the way they should.
We as the player knew it would be a good ending despite how sad the story was going.
Is that not the very definition of Hope?
End Walker is the end of a poem to the players of FFXIV,
Lastly this is a Teen rated game, FFXIV works very hard to keep it that way.
If you want a game of true dispare, FFXIV will never be it. -
05-10-2023, 12:41 AMGralna
I'd rather see character growth and development. Majority of playerbase found Alphinaud overconfident and pretentious in ARR, but by end of HW had warmed up to him. Still plenty that don't like him despite that growth, but it's there. I'd rather have similar arcs for characters, than to just have a rotating door of characters arriving and dying like in GoT or WoW. Character deaths can be meaningful when done right, overusing it though can be just as bad overuse of resurrection or fake outs.
By this point I've come to accept that core group of scions most likely have impervious plot armor, and at worst will disappear for a few story arcs in future expansions. Doesn't mean though that CB3 can't do meaningful character deaths, there's still the **SPOILERS** "welcome to Shadowbringers" moment, and the second trial of EW. -
05-10-2023, 04:43 AMTaleraRistainFFXV was hardly the first JRPG in existence to ever do that. Or the first game or book or movie. It's a common trope in any media that the main party often takes a moment of peace to reflect and appreciate each other and their journey before they go off to an uncertain ending in the final confrontation.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRVV
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05-10-2023, 05:05 AMBRVVYeah. That's fine :) If half of the planet burnt down and some NPCs from back in the day died that message would have more weight. Just imagine Kan-E-Senna whispering "Don't loose hope. Be glad for those you were able to save, not sad about those you couldn't." while dieing. We and some we could save escape to the moon. 6.x patches would be about finding a new place to live. Wouldn't that embody the message of hope and never loosing it in face of despair even better?Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
Nice marketing material. How do you feel it was? Also it's "Endwalker". 1 word. Not meant as mocking btw. I genuienly don't know what you mean how this expac has been more a "poem to the players" than any other one.Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
No one ever asked for "Requiem for a Dream" in video game form from SE. It's just that they set up EW to be about the Apocalypse and it became almost a Power Rangers episode or a story that could be Golden Sun. I like Golden Sun but there is a reason it's package said you would enjoy it more if you can read. To be fair FFXIV always had at least one writing technique that i only see in media for young children. That is painfully always stating what people are thinking. This is the worst in normal quests. Plus a lot of exposition dumps. The start of Bozja also has these a lot. I just hoped it would get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
And i mentioned how the timing feels off for me. Also, again: am i not allowed to critizes it because of that? They also hardly reflect because they barely changed. My point with the rest is more about the timing. They could have made the downtime more justified. Actually have Endsinger take a break aswell for some reason. Or have us relax in order to fight of despair. That would have been lit (am i cool now? :))Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
The "power of friendship"-trope is also in a lot of other media. It's also in Persona... and i hated it in P5. Feels like you don't need to write an ending anymore. Just copy the trope. -
05-10-2023, 06:34 AMEisiYes, that's why I don't think the writers should kill everyone off. Is this a deliberate strawman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You write so much and yet most of it is meaningless drivel that doesn't adress anything I said or even outright perverts it.
That's true and I don't think the elite in that situation - Zenos and Fandaniel - should have died in that moment. Nor do I think all of the scions should have died.Quote:
Indeed, in some elite companies or groups, sometimes, NO ONE at all dies.
Yes, that's right. Why are you writing this? Do you think I don't believe this? Do you need to flanderize my position into "everybody must die" in order to contradict it?Quote:
People can also reach low points without literally everyone dying (or close to it) dying around them.
It's certainly overcoming despair. It's certainly the midst of deepest darkness where you find the will to move on. Call it what you will, that is what Endwalker was going for.Quote:
Hope isn't "when things are dark and everyone has died, I press on", that's stoicism. And that's not even the only form of stoicism.
Then why was there so much suffering, so much death, apocalypse and despair?Quote:
The story wasn't about the end and loss and despair. It was about how it WASN'T the end, how triumph prevented (most) loss, and about hope. It wasn't about a war-torn world and death, it as about building a future and life. The story was about the opposite of everything you seem to think it was about.
Yeah you can not write a story about hope in the face of despair if you refuse to show the darkness with the light. What even is this point are you just acting as though you didn't understand what themes the expansion named ENDWALKER was setting out to explore?
Yeah, sometimes character deaths are badly written, shocker! That doesn't mean that you should never resort to death in a story where it's appropriate. You can write anything badly.Quote:
I don't care for deaths. There's enough death in reality, and there are LOTS of substitutes for death that make a compelling story. Indeed, death is arguably the cheapest and most pathetic way to try to score cheap heartstring points with people. It requires little effort other than killing someone, so much so, many things kill off a side character that no one even cares about but make all the characters in the story react as if we should (Avengers did this with Coulson's death, and while his character came into his own in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., when he died, everyone around me was like "Who is this character and why are we supposed to care about him?"). It's just such a cheap and lazy method of writing, I'm constantly shocked by people that think it's somehow the most masterful way to write drama.
A character becoming disabled and learning to live with it or however that story played out is a different story from a character dying and I don't really think is comparable. We're not trying to go for "the biggest gutpunch" here. And even so, I think a character dying is often way more of one.Quote:
Hell, someone being injured, especially if you don't know but suspect it may be permanent - Iggy being blinded in FFXV, for example - is much more of a gutpunch. Because the character is still there. You still see them, interact with them, etc, in their compromised state, and you know they were harmed (probably) by the bad guy but there's nothing you can do but press on despite that.
Also why do you think it's Alphinaud I think should have been there (altered the scene) and died? Because his death would be more condusive to the story they wanted to tell in my opinion. It's not that I would just willy nilly kill anybody. It's very deliberate.
I understand that you don't think character deaths are meaningful at all on principle. I can not share that principle and I don't think you have made a good argument why it should be upheld. Again, just because deaths are sometimes badly written doesn't mean anything but that you should be careful in writing them.
No, death means there is no way forward with and for that character. It means they are gone. And the rest of the cast has to deal with that in some fashion, honor their legacy, learn to live with the sorrow and even the mistakes they might have done by them and move on, remember the good times they had together. It's a very different thing from someone surviving and still being there to share their time with.Quote:
"no substitute for it"? ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is a substitute for it, and almost always BETTER than it, imo.
Of course knowing that everything will turn out alright is not hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by deston07
Believing that if you do everything you can and believing in your fellow people that things will turn out right - not everything mind you, because life comes with unfair hardship - that is hope. You hope on faith. Not on knowledge.
In fact to know that everything will turn out good anyway is a mockery of hope. It's either naive delusion or literal omniscience.
Zenos is much stronger still, he grew in power as well and this is how In from the Cold was framed as well. He was supposed to be a danger.Quote:
In a prolonged fight Zenos would probably beat the Scions.
The Scions are not so weak they would cave that quickly.
The End of Shadow Bringers and early parts of End Walker story
prove that they are much stronger than before.
(Maybe you forgot they literally fought full primals in teams of two?
Just before End Walker started)
It was about hope in the face of despair. Why do you think that just because I wanted the WoL to lose a friend, maybe their best friend, that this would go against the goal of hope? Maybe because at the end of the day you agree with the Endsinger? At a certain point it is hopeless and you should give up. Is that it?Quote:
The goal of End Walker was Hope, Not despair.
No. So don't mischaracterize my position either.