Endwalker MSQ gripe - *early spoilers*

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Indeed. We seek out and slaughter sentient beings who are minding their own business because someone at our military organization put them on a hunt list, a long list with dozens of entries that simply command: "Kill N of X." Not capture. Not bring to justice. Kill.
And why do we do it? For currency and promotions.

Whatever, though. It's just a game, and that's just a trope in this kind of game.

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Ludonarrative dissonance I think is the term. Where there's a disconnect between the gameplay and the story.

Like how in a lot of shooter games, if you get shot in a cutscene, that's pretty bad. If you get shot during gameplay, you just wait a few seconds for the bullet wounds to heal.

Some games deal with it better than others, and some people deal with it differently to others, but there's almost always going to be a little bit of a disconnect.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Pretty sure Wol doesnt operate on a One Race philosophy or go around kidnapping people he considers inferior to perform experiments on them so yeah.
I am better than my enemy thank youuuuuu <3

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Join the Eorezian alliance! Or else...

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Join the Eorezian alliance! Or else...

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"What are you gonna do, cut my arm off or something?"

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"What are you gonna do, cut my arm off or something?"

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technically... if that was done you would only be able to wield half your weapons... so... um.. sure...viable option

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"What are you gonna do, cut my arm off or something?"

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Joke's on you, we were too slow (lol, sorry brobuan. Plot armor for me, not for thee~) so we just kicked ally mcmingo's doors down and put a bull in power that answers to the allance. The WoL is just the tool, the alliance is the ones wielding it. Enjoy the story~!

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

technically... if that was done you would only be able to wield half your weapons... so... um.. sure...viable option

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I only need one! -whips out a giant colouring book- Demi-Bahamut, go!

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Joke's on you, we were too slow (lol, sorry brobuan. Plot armor for me, not for thee~) so we just kicked ally mcmingo's doors down and put a bull in power that answers to the allance. The WoL is just the tool, the alliance is the ones wielding it. Enjoy the story~!

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I'm pretty sure this is addressed in the DRK quests. We're aware we're basically everyone's lackey and keep accepting dumb fetch quests, but we do it because it's cool to help the little people from time to time after half an hour of murdering our way through Castri. Say what you will about our lack of agency, at least we like it and haven't died yet. What's Garlemald's excuse?

I've always found the "WE'RE the bad guy actually" argument lacking. Sure, if we had any sort of agency, that might have some merit, but we don't, and the only way to win that argument is to simply not play the game. It just doesn't work. Now if the WoL could choose to resolve scenarios/quests in different ways, then that might be a meaningful discussion, but we don't.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I'm pretty sure this is addressed in the DRK quests. We're aware we're basically everyone's lackey and keep accepting dumb fetch quests, but we do it because it's cool to help the little people from time to time after half an hour of murdering our way through Castri. Say what you will about our lack of agency, at least we like it and haven't died yet. What's Garlemald's excuse?

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Who needs critical thought when those in power tell you who the bad guy is! Besides, your entire argument is "Well, they should have been stronger!". That's not the mindset of someone wanting to help others, that's the mindset of a sociopath, lmao.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Who needs critical thought when those in power tell you who the bad guy is! Besides, your entire argument is "Well, they should have been stronger!". That's not the mindset of someone wanting to help others, that's the mindset of a sociopath, lmao.

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...well... aren't we sociopaths? Have you not seen the crazy flips we do in-game while killing people?? Why are we so jumpy that stuff's being shot at, Machinists? And what's up with all the flourish after stabbing people, Red Mages?

And honestly, the methods are similar and that in itself is a problem. But two things.
1 - There is a difference between the methods employed and morality. We kill, yes, but we don't go around torturing people. Garleans do. We kill because we're fighting for freedom. Garleans have secured their freedom in Ilsabard, their idea was to go around murdering and torturing their neighbours and their neighbours' neighbours. At least we're trying to liberate the people of the places we go to, and we don't go on a murder spree just because they're Garleans. Otherwise Jullus wouldn't be breathing on his second cutscene.
2 - We actually resort to diplomacy. We try to do dialogue first. Which is far more than what Garleans ever attempted. Garlean diplomacy is "Bigger Army Diplomacy". Look at Bozja; they didn't even try to coexist, they just went at eachother's throats because "MUH LANDMASS"

...except when we're massively incompetent at it. I'm still salty about the war table scene with Varis. Varis's claims to shut down the other nations were so flimsy, and he purposely ignored the development on the past two expansions specifically to remain on a moral highground while the others just looked down with guilt in their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...except when we're massively incompetent at it. I'm still salty about the war table scene with Varis. Varis's claims to shut down the other nations were so flimsy, and he purposely ignored the development on the past two expansions specifically to remain on a moral highground while the others just looked down with guilt in their eyes.

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To be fair, Varis is a warmonger, he doesn't care about our reasoning or any reasoning for that matter. There's only one way to achieve his idiotic goal, and it is to conquer everyone no matter what.
There's nothing the alliance leaders could have actually said that would make him rethink his goals.

But i do agree that the reaction of the leaders was underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I've always found the "WE'RE the bad guy actually" argument lacking. Sure, if we had any sort of agency, that might have some merit, but we don't, and the only way to win that argument is to simply not play the game. It just doesn't work. Now if the WoL could choose to resolve scenarios/quests in different ways, then that might be a meaningful discussion, but we don't.

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Additionally on this, a lot of it relies on "look how many faceless henchmen we killed along the way", and so much of that comes down to necessity (and simplicity) of the game mechanics. You need to have things to fight or the gameplay is bare. You hit a thing until it reaches zero HP; it keels over.

It surely plays out differently in the "real" story as opposed to the gameplay simplification. Sometimes our defeated enemies are outright shown to be not dead in the next scene, and even if they aren't, it wouldn't play out the same if this was a movie and not a game. We'd be sneaking in and throwing sleeping-spells and being merciful where we can.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Additionally on this, a lot of it relies on "look how many faceless henchmen we killed along the way", and so much of that comes down to necessity (and simplicity) of the game mechanics. You need to have things to fight or the gameplay is bare. You hit a thing until it reaches zero HP; it keels over.

It surely plays out differently in the "real" story as opposed to the gameplay simplification. Sometimes our defeated enemies are outright shown to be not dead in the next scene, and even if they aren't, it wouldn't play out the same if this was a movie and not a game. We'd be sneaking in and throwing sleeping-spells and being merciful where we can.

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not only are they often not dead.. but we work with them later... Gaius anyone?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I've always found the "WE'RE the bad guy actually" argument lacking. Sure, if we had any sort of agency, that might have some merit, but we don't, and the only way to win that argument is to simply not play the game. It just doesn't work. Now if the WoL could choose to resolve scenarios/quests in different ways, then that might be a meaningful discussion, but we don't.

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No we're bad because this isnt Undertale so we cant just Talk our way out of slaughtering the innocent nazi allegories ;_; please understand they're only racist bags of trash because they were kicked out of corvus!....800 years ago...and according to EW role quest lore that wasnt even originally Garlean territory in the first place they stole it from the og corvusi so theyve always always been plundering amoral murdering facists who insist theyre right to do so because "ooo I cant cast Fire 1 Im so oppressed".

Also lets ignore Garleans do not exist in any capacity in the First implying that like the Ixal they're mutants created eons ago (probably by everyones favorite annoying "the writers cant come up with a single new thing its them everytime race" the allagans) however unlike the ixal who are at least interesting and add flavor to "5 flavors of generic whitebread human" Eorzea, Garleans are all just...middies or earless elves with forehead marbles. So Im super hard pressed to care when the freaking devs didnt care enough to make the race mildly interesting in any capacity (see also, every ascian).

Just got a bit further in, and it's not getting any better tbh

So not content to make you do menial work to show you want to help, he then uses the result of your work to blackmail your companions, ransack their supplies and force them out, and when they refuse he outright tries to murder you all with heavy weaponry.
And I'm supposed to care about these people because Jullus has a generic sob story?

This is what it sounds like: "The genocidal, racist, warmongering fascists are demanding to r*pe your mother and beat your sister in front of you while you cook them dinner, but you HAVE to understand all of this is completely justified because he has some random trauma you had nothing to do with and his people were persecuted centuries ago. Partly their own fault btw."

Nah, I'm done with these people.

I'm glad Quintus offed himself. I'm just sad I didn't get to giddily stomp him to death myself. Barefooted.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

Just got a bit further in, and it's not getting any better tbh

So not content to make you do menial work to show you want to help, he then uses the result of your work to blackmail your companions, ransack their supplies and force them out, and when they refuse he outright tries to murder you all with heavy weaponry.
And I'm supposed to care about these people because Jullus has a generic sob story?

This is what it sounds like: "The genocidal, racist, warmongering fascists are demanding to r*pe your mother and beat your sister in front of you while you cook them dinner, but you HAVE to understand all of this is completely justified because he has some random trauma you had nothing to do with and his people were persecuted centuries ago. Partly their own fault btw."

Nah, I'm done with these people.

I'm glad Quintus offed himself. I'm just sad I didn't get to giddily stomp him to death myself. Barefooted.

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How do you want the Garleans to react exactly ? To say thanks and cooperate ? Or to do what they did but you get to relieve you tension by beating them until they accept your kindness ?

They are a proud people, who believe they still have the chance to re-establish their government and way of light.

They don't consider that they lost, or not to the extent that they should accept your aids.
They are pride and stubborn, which is logical when you love your nation and don't want to admit it is already gone.
You may expect them to act rationally, but that was never going to happen considering their circumstances.

And beating them is not the way to make them accept to be help. It was never going to be easy or simple.

The Garleans have just had their ruler killed by his own son who then let one of their most famous heroes take the fall, their leadership jumping down each others' throats in a civil war, mysterious towers appearing out of nowhere to enslave their remaining population and force them to build an even bigger tower, and now an invading force led by a person they've been told is a mass-murdering monster has marched into their desolated capital city. Everything their nation stood for has been turned over, set aflame, and stomped into the ground. It's entirely understandable that they're not feeling very hospitable right now.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

How do you want the Garleans to react exactly ? To say thanks and cooperate ? Or to do what they did but you get to relieve you tension by beating them until they accept your kindness ?

They are a proud people, who believe they still have the chance to re-establish their government and way of light.

They don't consider that they lost, or not to the extent that they should accept your aids.
They are pride and stubborn, which is logical when you love your nation and don't want to admit it is already gone.
You may expect them to act rationally, but that was never going to happen considering their circumstances.

And beating them is not the way to make them accept to be help. It was never going to be easy or simple.

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You misunderstand me.

See, after considering the entirety of their history, behavior and situation, I don't much care if they want help or not anymore.

1- Their past suffering is in great part their own doing
2- Being "proud" is not my problem, nor anyone else's, and not an excuse to be a cowardly, double-crossing lil b*tch
3- Propaganda or no, using what they perceive to be civilian children (their own words) as hostages to enable murder and theft is pathetic, even in war. Pretty sure it's a war crime.
4- They have always been racist, expansionist zealots with no regard for their own kind (as seen in some of their experiments), human life or anybody else's for that matter
5- Historical perceptions of injustice you have not personally lived through are not a justification for current day actions, in any scenario. This is different from Nidhogg, for example, as in that case the injustice was done TO HIM, albeit in a time long past
6- He clearly put some lofty military goal in front of the current needs of the refugees he was allegedly looking out for

I'm cool with helping the enemy, but I am certainly not ok with being played out of pity. Those who humble themselves and accept the help they clearly need should get it, those who'd rather die out of misplaced pride, let them.

The story was told in such an obnoxious way that right now if given the choice I'd just Ultima their entire continent from orbit along with the Telephones and be done with it. Tired of the moral squabbling and pitiful redemption arcs.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The Garleans have just had their ruler killed by his own son who then let one of their most famous heroes take the fall, their leadership jumping down each others' throats in a civil war, mysterious towers appearing out of nowhere to enslave their remaining population and force them to build an even bigger tower, and now an invading force led by a person they've been told is a mass-murdering monster has marched into their desolated capital city. Everything their nation stood for has been turned over, set aflame, and stomped into the ground. It's entirely understandable that they're not feeling very hospitable right now.

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Were the ever hospitable?

Last I saw them they were too busy murdering people in their own homes in Eorzia to sit down for tea, sadly. I must have missed their kind-hearted nature between the twisted experiments with WMDs and the constant xenophobic mass-murdering, my bad ^^