Building a better Alphinaud

I think it’s time to expand horizons and pay closer attention to what makes the casts of games like FFIX and Dragon Age Origins memorable rather than to continue to peddle misleading arguments.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I think it’s time to expand horizons and pay closer attention to what makes the casts of games like FFIX and Dragon Age Origins memorable rather than to continue to peddle misleading arguments.

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If I want to pay attention to other characters of other games and universes...id just play those other games.
Solas, Blackwall, Morrigan or Cassandra dont come to mind when Im playing FFXIV. Just like I wouldnt think of Thancred or Y'shtola, illbert or Lyse while playing Dragonage or Mass Effect.
Differnt types of characters are made for different settings and stories.

Well given how boring the setting and how badly handled the story has become then these characters appear to be serving their intended purpose well after all.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well given how boring the setting and how badly handled the story has become then these characters appear to be serving their intended purpose well after all.

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Subjective opinion, one I know others share.
But there are Other people including myself that dont feel the same way.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Subjective opinion, one I know others share.
Other people and myself dont feel the same way.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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And I wonder whether that opinion would change if you were to consume other stories and media.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And I wonder whether that opinion would change if you were to consume other stories and media.

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I have...Ive played more games then FFXIV. I just named Mass Effect and a handful of Characters from Dragonage.
Surely you didnt miss that, or did you just ignore it?
Does my enjoyment of FFXIV cloud the idea that Ive ever touched another game, read a book or saw a movie?
Pretty silly

Having played those games you should able to realize what they did right and what FFXIV is doing wrong.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And I wonder whether that opinion would change if you were to consume other stories and media.

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I can say I've consumed pretty much all of the stories and media you have. Or, at least the ones mentioned in this thread. While FFXIV cast aren't exactly a master class, they're pretty memorable. I'm sure you disagree, but that disagreement is not an objective opinion.

Not that it's all that important, either way. The Lunar RPG series had some of the most cliched characters ever, and I doubt anyone here could even name all of them without Googling it. But they were enjoyable for what they were, and the game is still a classic.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Having played those games you should able to realize what they did right and what FFXIV is doing wrong.

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So...does that mean I should just hate FFXIV?
If you ever read my other posts in other threads, I have said there has been fair criticism of FFXIVs storytelling.
Its not perfect, then again nothing is perfect, but there are still things to be enjoyed. And despite flaws you can still like and enjoy something, even if that something isn't liked by others.
Regardless of what FFXIV is doing wrong, I still enjoy the game and am ever curious to see where it goes next.
For me, it has not hit that point that Im ready to discard it and just put it down.

I'm reminded of the male viera thread and how, when some of us decided to politely request a broad height and muscle slider as a compromise for the wide variety of different personal tastes the idea was repeatedly shot down. Interestingly enough by some of the same posters who come into story threads to start inane arguments, hurl bizarre insinuations around and generally strive to stamp out any calls for variety when it comes to literally any aspect of the game.

It's an interesting trend some of us have cottoned on to - and a similar tactic deployed by social media mobs.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm reminded of the male viera thread and how, when some of us decided to politely request a broad height and muscle slider as a compromise for the wide variety of different personal tastes the idea was repeatedly shot down. Interestingly enough by some of the same posters who come into story threads to start inane arguments, hurl bizarre insinuations around and generally strive to stamp out any calls for variety when it comes to literally any aspect of the game.

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You like to compare apples to boomerangs. Likewise, you once again are falling into the same rhetoric of claiming your opinion supports "variety" and anyone who disagrees with you, for some reason, isn't. You can like the Scions and also support the idea of expanding the roster.

Also, nobody is trying to "stamp out" you guys' opinion. You like to make broad claims as if they are objective points of quality or taste in media, and then act offended when someone says they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's an interesting trend some of us have cottoned on to - and a similar tactic deployed by social media mobs.

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Another interesting trend that's been cottoned onto is your constant attempts to Poison the Well. That is, compare people that disagree with you to broadly-disliked groups like "social media mobs", as if that somehow makes their arguments less valid.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm reminded of the male viera thread and how, when some of us decided to politely request a broad height and muscle slider as a compromise for the wide variety of different personal tastes the idea was repeatedly shot down. Interestingly enough by some of the same posters who come into story threads to start inane arguments, hurl bizarre insinuations around and generally strive to stamp out any calls for variety when it comes to literally any aspect of the game.

It's an interesting trend some of us have cottoned on to - and a similar tactic deployed by social media mobs.

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It always makes me chuckle when you start Indirectly calling out people...not to start a fight or argument on that...but I am curious.
Feel free to correct me, but Ill guess Im one of those "same posters"....when did I shoot down Variety?
Because; knowing my own words, I said ""You make it sound like they cant still introduce "new characters with more variety and interesting personalities" they absolutely still can, and they have. And they will continue to do so"". That sounds like support my dude...not shooting down.
Also...if Im remembering that conversation, I just laughed and denied the possibility of a FemRoe Slider on the Male Viera. Just didnt look like a possibility at the stage the Male Viera were at when they were presented.


Feel free to correct me if Im not involved in any way and I jumped the gun here.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Another interesting trend that's been cottoned onto is your constant attempts to Poison the Well. That is, compare people that disagree with you to broadly-disliked groups like "social media mobs", as if that somehow makes their arguments less valid.

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I will co-sign this...my dude, dont be childish.
You arn't offending anybody with your ideas and conversation to bring something you like/want into the game.
But for some reason you get really weird and defensive if you get any pushback and people disagree...or say anything that isn't 100% supporting you.
Its the same practice people use with criticizing FFXIV. If there is ANY amount of pushback, people get upset and cry foul "Im being shutdown/they are silencing us"

Stop it.
Your opinion is heard, its still there, and you have supporters. Its not going away because a few people dont agree.

You're free to believe what you wish. I was simply commenting on an interesting trend. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to voice my support for more variety where the game is concerned. I want a greater variety of options in this game for many reasons, not in the least because many aspects of the game appeal to and resonate with people different and the game is becoming a bit too one sided in terms of what it bringing to the table across the board.

For me it's just as simple as being a Scottish guy who grew up on a farm and I'd like to see a broader variety of characters who aren't just spoiled city dwellers who went to a fancy university in Sharlayan.

I'm also referring to more than just the Scions. I would have liked characters such as Arenvald and Fordola to step up and do more rather than be limited mostly to side content. A bit too late now - especially for the former - and if Fordola does end up playing a greater role in the future then hopefully she won't just be sanitised.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm also referring to more than just the Scions. I would have liked characters such as Arenvald and Fordola to step up and do more rather than be limited mostly to side content. A bit too late now - especially for the former - and if Fordola does end up playing a greater role in the future then hopefully she won't just be sanitised.

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Oh hey, finally, we can agree on something here.
I certainly hope we will see more of Arenvald and Fordola. Love those 2, and Fordola has been on the front abit more, so Id like to hope she might take on a Supporting Role if not become a main member of the group. Not specifically the Scions, but maybe a new group that might get formed.
I think your silly to think she will get soft...or "That Level" of soft. Not even Estinian completely changed, and Fordola is much rougher around the edges. I dont think thats gonna stop or change.

Even though I don't think this was directed at me(?) I wanted to respond.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

("How come X character I liked better died, while Y Scion(s) I don't like get to live?")

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The sentiment that Emet, Hyth, and even Venat were better/more interesting traveling companions/party members within the brief time they were on screen compared to the however many years it's been with the Scions is a common one. Like I said earlier, I don't think the issues with the Scions were as noticeable (at least to me) until we were put in a position to experience something else.

I also think EW in general wasn't a good vehicle for the Scions. There were issues with some of them regressing in character development, several serving redundant roles, a few having their characterization tweaked to be more in line with the others, etc. ShB did a much better job at having a purpose for each one.

Liking or not liking them is subjective. They ranged from boring to insufferable to me throughout EW. I was only slightly moved by two of them in UT. There were more times I found them irritating, but that also had a lot to do with the fact that EW lacked nuance and I wasn't on board with the narrative being pushed which, obviously, our moral arbiters were supporting. Suffice it to say, it's not as black and white as "why did X die and not a Scion?" It's also my personal preference to have more so-called "realists" in the party. Please give me people like Fordola, Matoya, Emet, or even Zenos types. I thought Estinien would bring much needed 'spice' only to be disappointed.

I think FFXIV in general has made the mistake of bloating the cast without knowing what to do with the characters and the fact remains that the Scions are homogeneous. The writers can't/won't commit to consequences, ushering them off screen for longer than a zone at a time, or having standard differences and disagreements that even best friends would have. This just isn't going to work long term. I'm seeing an increasing amount of people speaking up about it, including those who like the Scions (I don't dislike all of them either).

Side note, a friend of mine said, "Do you want the Scions to end up like the Plenty, where there was no conflict?" :P

I agree. A height and muscle slider for every character like Alphinaud would make him to match every preference. The lackluster story writers guild thread made the point that herois in the game are not traditionally masculine. Graha eats the burger but is not bulking! Height and muscle slider choices would help fix this. Until then there is the Scions of the Gym: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ym_is_growing/

I mean, if you want more interesting characters, wouldn't it be better to take already established characters like the scions, and give them storylines and arcs that help them grow into that? Instead of doing the work to introduce new characters (I mean, you can introduce new characters too.)

I agree that characters like Y'sthola are underdeveloped and underultilized, which is why I'm excited to see a story with a more narrow focus on her, instead of her being relegated to the role of the expoisition character because there isn't time for her to have an arc.

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Originally Posted by Graeham

I agree. A height and muscle slider for every character like Alphinaud would make him to match every preference. The lackluster story writers guild thread made the point that herois in the game are not traditionally masculine. Graha eats the burger but is not bulking! Height and muscle slider choices would help fix this. Until then there is the Scions of the Gym: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ym_is_growing/

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I think you're my favorite poster on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Even though I don't think this was directed at me(?) I wanted to respond.

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It wasn't, specifically, just for the record.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The sentiment that Emet, Hyth, and even Venat were better/more interesting traveling companions/party members within the brief time they were on screen compared to the however many years it's been with the Scions is a common one.

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However, this is with the caveat that we're kind of "preconditioned" to find them interesting by that point. These are the characters who, for better or worse, have shaped the entire FFXIV world for the past 12,000 years, and within the context of the story, we're there to learn as much about them and their world as we can to find out what went wrong and whether or not it can help the present. I'll agree that they were exceptionally well-written (for the most part) and thus compelling throughout our journey in Elpis, but that doesn't change the fact that this largely because we've been hearing about each of these characters, or things they've affected in the future, for at least two expansions or more.

I don't think this discredits the notion that the writers can and should make similarly-compelling characters in the future...just that the Elpis bunch all had the benefit of fanservice.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm reminded of the male viera thread and how, when some of us decided to politely request a broad height and muscle slider as a compromise for the wide variety of different personal tastes the idea was repeatedly shot down. Interestingly enough by some of the same posters who come into story threads to start inane arguments, hurl bizarre insinuations around and generally strive to stamp out any calls for variety when it comes to literally any aspect of the game.

It's an interesting trend some of us have cottoned on to - and a similar tactic deployed by social media mobs.

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This is a funny take because your buddy here basically just told us we're fine with xivs characters as is because we don't consume other "better" media. Also hyperbole isn't going to help your case. It never does and never will

Please make the case for why the cast of FFXIV is better than the cast of FFIX or Dragon Age Origins then. Tell me how this party of characters that has failed to evolve in meaningful ways, have any real stakes, and in several cases has regressed character progression compares to the casts of other media.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Please make the case for why the cast of FFXIV is better than the cast of FFIX or Dragon Age Origins then. Tell me how this party of characters that has failed to evolve in meaningful ways, have any real stakes, and in several cases has regressed character progression compares to the casts of other media.

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You need to learn what the concept of an opinion is dude. Not everyone is going to like what you like. Not everyone is going to see certain characters the way that you do. Not every character is going to land with everyone. I'm not going to waste my time making a case for characters you're already dead set on disliking.

My mindset has never been "X is better than Y". It's "Like this character for these reason, I like these characters for those reasons". "I resonate more with this character because I see parallels to myself in them." There's nothing even remotely wrong with that. Hell there isn't a FF cast (from the ones I've played) that I'd call bad. Ofc I have favs but I don't compare who's better. If you like DA characters better, that's fine. Don't expect ff characters to be like them. If you want DA like characters play DA. I love Garrus from Mass Effect, I ain't expecting a character like him in xiv though

I gave you the chance to make your case and you responded with this. Very well then, and quite telling.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I gave you the chance to make your case and you responded with this. Very well then, and quite telling.

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Again, you've said 100 times here you don't like the current cast. Do you honestly think I'm dumb enough to try and convince you of otherwise? You aren't looking to change your mind. You're looking to waste people's time and shoot down the points they make (as shown in your dismisal of basically everything i just said above). Let's be real here

What is there to change my mind on? The lack of evolution of this cast and the negative effects they've had on this game's storytelling are a matter of fact. These characters have been constructed poorly. You're not looking beyond the surface if you're still on about whether or not we "like" different characters or not. The question is why we feel this way, and you've avoided addressing the key issues surrounding these characters that have been reduced to comfort plushies.

If I wanted a story where nothing of consequence happened I would be playing Animal Crossing - though that game has more stakes in that islanders can choose to leave your island. I bought a Final Fantasy game because I wanted something of substance. Not this.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Please make the case for why the cast of FFXIV is better than the cast of FFIX or Dragon Age Origins then. Tell me how this party of characters that has failed to evolve in meaningful ways, have any real stakes, and in several cases has regressed character progression compares to the casts of other media.

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Believe it or not, some of us are capable of enjoy things objectively in its own merit without obsessively having to make comparison.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Believe it or not, some of us are capable of enjoy things objectively in its own merit without obsessively having to make comparison.

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And believe it or not some of us like to think about and analyse the characters and stories of the media we consume.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

What is there to change my mind on? The lack of evolution of this cast and the negative effects they've had on this game's storytelling are a matter of fact. These characters have been constructed poorly. You're not looking beyond the surface if you're still on about whether or not we "like" different characters or not. The question is why we feel this way, and you've avoided addressing the key issues surrounding these characters that have been reduced to comfort plushies.

If I wanted a story where nothing of consequence happened I would be playing Animal Crossing - though that game has more stakes in that islanders can choose to leave your island. I bought a Final Fantasy game because I wanted something of substance. Not this.

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Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion dude like seriously. And I've not been avoiding anything. Me not sharing your views doesn't equate to ignoring. Also liking characters is a general statement that encompasses all of what we're talking about.

And you make posts like these and really think folks are going to waste time trying to make a case or convince you to see things different. I won't say it's wrong for you to have the views that you do, but don't act like you're willing to change them when you arent.

At what point do you see what you don't like n just go "maybe it's time to move on"?

You are entirely correct in that I am unwilling to compromise my standards of storytelling. I like stories and characters that were constructed and handled with better care than the likes of what we saw in Endwalker. Glad we had this conversation.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You are entirely correct in that I am unwilling to compromise my standards of storytelling. I like stories and characters that were constructed and handled with better care than the likes of what we saw in Endwalker. Glad we had this conversation.

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Nobody is telling you to compromise your standards for starters. Also you literally just admitted in saying that to wanting to waste folks times by having them plead their case when you already were indeed dead set on your views anyways. I mean this genuinely...are you ok dude?

I am content with my analysis and look forward to the day that the issues I have highlighted are corrected.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And I wonder whether that opinion would change if you were to consume other stories and media.

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Not particularly.

I've played and watched playthroughs of plenty of story games, some of which I'd genuinely call masterpieces of storytelling, and I still enjoyed the majority of the Endwalker MSQ. Would I call IT a masterpiece? No. It had it's flaws, imo the worst being odd pacing, uninteresting villains early on (specifically Zenos and Fandaniel for a fair chunk of it), and frankly a too long list of characters - too long to do most of them justice. But I still enjoyed the story overall, and I still actually like almost all of the Scions.

...and the one I don't like is Krile. So.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And believe it or not some of us like to think about and analyse the characters and stories of the media we consume.

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Your point being? That the people who disagree with you don't or can't analyses the stuffs we consume?

Just like there are some movies are considered classic, some can be considered iconic, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate a nice casual comedy or action flick. I think one would be miserable to hing their enjoyment to some limited standard.

At the end of the day, if I can enjoy a classical, a rock, a hip-hop performance equally, that just means there are more things for me to enjoy in life comparing to people who can only enjoy one single thing.

On the comparison between FFIX/DA:O and FFXIV, I'd like to know exactly why the former two are being considered "superior" to FFXIV. Without knowing what metric is being judged here, any comparison between any of the games is pointless because it could be immediately dismissed as subjective.

Characters were visually distinct, had different origins/contrasting personalities that set them apart from each other and made for interesting and entertaining interactions. It really is that simple. A shame that FFXIV could not accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Characters were visually distinct, had different origins/contrasting personalities that set them apart from each other and made for interesting and entertaining interactions. It really is that simple. A shame that FFXIV could not accomplish this.

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Aye. Particularly in the case of Dragon Age! Nations not automatically agreeing with and sharing the exact same set of beliefs also made things very interesting. I remember being pretty fascinated with Orlais and very happy to see a French inspired nation present in a video game. We sort of got that with Ishgard, which I consider to be one of the better designed nations in FFXIV.

....OR he can grow moustaches as Lord Fortemps and a nice tribal tattoo on his back.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Characters were visually distinct, had different origins/contrasting personalities that set them apart from each other and made for interesting and entertaining interactions.

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Well, let me start with the caveat that none of these things are objective qualities which make a cast of characters better or worse than each other. In FFX, for example, there are only two characters in the main cast who are not "pretty young people" (Auron and Kimahri), and only one (maybe two) whose journey is not "help Yuna on her pilgrimage" (Rikku and technically Auron).

That being said, if this is the metric you're using, then I can also argue that the FFXIV cast at least doesn't rely upon jokes and physical slapstick for most of its character charm, which is the case of HALF of FFIX's cast. For example, Steiner was a repeated victim of this starting with the second cinematic cutscene he's featured in. Likewise, Amarant's entire character arc comes from one cutscene in which he's the butt of the joke, and then a second cutscene in which he learns The Power of Friendship. Eiko's entire character is "haha isn't it funny that this little girl is sexually harassing the main character the way he does other women?". And then there's Quina, whose entire character is just a gag.

The exceptions to the above, of course, are Zidane, Garnet, Vivi and Freya, whose characters are fully fleshed out without relying on gimmicks to do it. But, when that accounts for only HALF of your cast, then something's wrong.


Where the cast of FFXIV has an advantage over DA:O is that their personalities are not entirely dependent upon the protagonist either kissing up to them (sometimes literally) or treating them like dirt. The main weakness of any Bioware game (or ones like it) is that the characters are sometimes less their own people and more dress-up dolls for the player to turn into whatever function they want. No one fits this description more than Morrigan, who goes from seductive vamp to tragically in love with her mark depending on whether or not you slept with her and gave her some gifts. (This isn't even getting into her development later in DA:I, where she's a kinder, gentler person no matter what you chose.)

Now, the fact that most characters can leave you depending on what choices you make is interesting, but it also ultimately limits their growth (aside from the popular ones, like Leliana, Alistair and Morrigan, who manage to have major roles in later games even if you kill the former and separate from the latter two). Wynne, Oghren, and Shale don't really matter in the end and, likewise, are basically never mentioned again after Awakening, and Zevran is reduced to a War Table mention in DA:I at best. Alistair, like Leliana and Morrigan, is popular enough that he manages to return in other games (unless he becomes a drunken vagabond), and is probably the most dynamic character in the entire series.

And then there's Dog....who's a dog. (He is, however, a VERY good boy. Yes he is!)


Frankly, there's a lot to like about all three casts. Despite my prior harshness to the FFIX cast, they are one of my favorites in the series. However, taking this to personal analysis for a moment, just because I like something doesn't mean I don't see its flaws (and the inverse), and the number of playthroughs I have of DA:O says more about how interesting I find that game, too. But at the same time, I can see a lot of things to like about the cast of FFXIV -- even Lyse, who is probably the Scion (past or present) I like the least, is still interesting enough to me to want to see where her story goes. I can't say the same thing about Shale or Oghren or Zevran. Or Amarant or Eiko or Quina. I don't have anything specifically against any of them...they're just inconsequential. It doesn't matter how "varied" they are or from how many different walks of life they're from. Those factors are not the final arbiters of character quality.

I think a lot of it boils down to what you expect out of a video game's story.

I go into video games expecting the kind of story you get in a summer action blockbuster. The plot that's obviously just there to tie action scenes together and you're lucky if your main character has any kind of character growth. RPG games I do expect to see character growth and a plot that's a bit more than just to tie the "action scenes" together.

I do have issues with all of the expansion stories and think some things could have been handled differently. It's just not the point that it significantly impacts my enjoyment of the story. Because just looking for a touch of actual plot and some character growth. Which we have gotten in all expansion packs.

Some people go into games wanting the quality of stories you would get if you picked up a good book and started reading it. Strong plot and good character growth of the main cast.

And neither side is wrong in their approach to video game stories, especially those in the RPG genre.

Could the character growth of the main cast be stronger? Yes. That's a fact. Whether or not said fact has any impact on whether or not a game is enjoyable or not to an individual is subjective. No one is wrong if they say the game is immensely enjoyable despite its flaws in storytelling. No one is wrong to say that the flaws in the storytelling have hurt their enjoyment of the game.

Could the story be stronger if there was a main cast shake up? Yes. Is it wrong to enjoy the current main cast and hope that they stick around for awhile? No.

Does the OP have points about Alphinaud's character development? Possibly. To know for sure on how I stand on that, I'd have to stop and analyze the story and analyzing stories isn't fun for me and would reduce my enjoyment of the story overall. Again goes down to what I go into a video game for story wise. You don't analyze an action blockbuster movie's plot.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Please make the case for why the cast of FFXIV is better than the cast of FFIX or Dragon Age Origins then.

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Why should we? Whats the argument or debate here? Or rather...what is the Point?
Some of us like and enjoy FFXIV and its characters. We even enjoy characters from other series & franchise; books, movies and other videogames.
Are we not allowed to like these things, AND FFXIVs characters?

Or are we only allowed to like what you and Theodric deem good?
News flash, we are all different.
Also, none of us made an argument or a case that FFXIV characters are better then characters from FFIX or Dragon Age.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am content with my analysis and look forward to the day that the issues I have highlighted are corrected.

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I think at this point you just want attention.
Because you're making crap up out of thin air and deeming victory over nothing.

Aveyond was the person constantly saying that if ever get an expansion thats no themed around a High Fantasy Europe analogue it would fail and the fanbase would hate it because they personally can't stand anything non Western European.

Which was a ludicrous take at the time but I can't believe I myself failed to point out that FFX is one of the top three highest selling games in the series and a beloved classic. And its as far from Fantasy Europe in setting as possible.

Point being they treat there opinions as objective facts and dismiss any others as inherently wrong if they don't line up. Which makes discussion rather pointless