Do we really need two healers per alliance in 24 mans?

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Originally Posted by pinkbubblegum

Sure. Just sounds like an easy way to get disillusioned is all

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Definitely has. Currently playing games that don't scratch the MMO itch, but are designed with player fun in mind. That stark contrast makes FFXIV's zero-interactivity healer design look even more amateurish by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Definitely has. Currently playing games that don't scratch the MMO itch, but are designed with player fun in mind. That stark contrast makes FFXIV's zero-interactivity healer design look even more amateurish by comparison.

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While you're doing that, if you haven't already come across it, you might find it worthwhile to check out "mini healer". It's an MMO healing simulator that was more fun than I expected, though, it doesn't really have a "world" part to explore - it's just one encounter to the next - which limited my interest but I still had some hours of healing fun with it.

Wish FF14 would take a few tips from it. The MH dev might not have much of a budget but at least gets the core gameplay right...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While you're doing that, if you haven't already come across it, you might find it worthwhile to check out "mini healer". It's an MMO healing simulator that was more fun than I expected, though, it doesn't really have a "world" part to explore - it's just one encounter to the next - which limited my interest but I still had some hours of healing fun with it.

Wish FF14 would take a few tips from it. The MH dev might not have much of a budget but at least gets the core gameplay right...

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Oh, that sounds interesting! Def gonna give that a try.

As always, I love the calm and insightful input you always give.

It is necessary. If you remove that extra healer then that one healer per alliance would have the highest responsibility out of the entire party which is not good for new players. 2 healers makes it new player friendly. Alliance raid roulette is always asking for DPS anyway so 24 mans are fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Derio

It is necessary. If you remove that extra healer then that one healer per alliance would have the highest responsibility out of the entire party which is not good for new players. 2 healers makes it new player friendly. Alliance raid roulette is always asking for DPS anyway so 24 mans are fine as is.

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All I see is a new raid where no one knows what they're doing.

Healer bites it and there's no SMN/RDM to support a raise and the other alliances tunnel vision (like always) and don't support raise as well.

Seen that WAY too many times.

Seems like this would be a really easy fix with more resurrection options and DF allowing solo-healer comps if the healer opts in. Possibly with the caveat that you'll still get a second healer if there's no rez mages.

Not being able to raise the healer still isn't really an argument for why you need 2 healers. It's an argument for needing more raising.

If only there were some precedent of *all* DPS having resurrection abilities in another Final Fantasy game.

Some sort of feather-shaped item.

It's on the tip of my tongue.

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Originally Posted by vetch

If only there were some precedent of *all* DPS having resurrection abilities in another Final Fantasy game.

Some sort of feather-shaped item.

It's on the tip of my tongue.

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Nice indirect nerf to healers, at that point why not just remove them?

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Originally Posted by Troxbark

Nice indirect nerf to healers, at that point why not just remove them?

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If you did only need the healer to rez, yes why not just remove them.

I don't think you understood what was being said though.

To some extent I guess it’s a relic of the past when we had 2 tanks per team as well.

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Originally Posted by Troxbark

Nice indirect nerf to healers, at that point why not just remove them?

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There exists an argument that healing needs to be simple because if healers lose focus and die to mechanics, the group is doomed. One of the reasons YoshiP balked at adding more difficult 4-man content for so long is related to this, as well. But if all players can use a combat rez then this argument for keeping healers (and 4-man combat in general) easy and unchallenging is undermined.

Also it would feel good for the DPS/tank players who actually like support elements in their gameplay. Also also, it would make the game feel more like a Final Fantasy game.

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Originally Posted by Troxbark

Nice indirect nerf to healers, at that point why not just remove them?

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Rezbots who mop up mistakes shouldn't be our identity.

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Originally Posted by Derio

It is necessary. If you remove that extra healer then that one healer per alliance would have the highest responsibility out of the entire party which is not good for new players. 2 healers makes it new player friendly. Alliance raid roulette is always asking for DPS anyway so 24 mans are fine as is.

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Actual responsibility in final fantasy xiv ? Get out with that, we can’t expect the crayon eater too adapt to that. God I miss a boss like hashmal that stomps the raid in the ground.

Every content except ultimate and savage is just so super boring it’s insane.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Actual responsibility in final fantasy xiv ? Get out with that, we can’t expect the crayon eater too adapt to that. God I miss a boss like hashmal that stomps the raid in the ground.

Every content except ultimate and savage is just so super boring it’s insane.

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We can zero GCD heal savage, hell P1 is an absolute joke, savage barely even deserves the title now, considering all the casuals on the forums are so hell bent on saying “just go do hardcore content” we sure do have almost nothing to actually do

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We can zero GCD heal savage, hell P1 is an absolute joke, savage barely even deserves the title now, considering all the casuals on the forums are so hell bent on saying “just go do hardcore content” we sure do have almost nothing to actually do

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The 2 hardcore fights we have in a sea of mediocre boss difficulty. It’s jus a sad picture.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

The 2 hardcore fights we have in a sea of mediocre boss difficulty. It’s jus a sad picture.

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Honestly (and the OF’s can ridicule me for this I don’t really mind) I’m on my last legs with this game, I’ve played for years and watched the volume of content that’s directed at me get paired down further and further with each expansion, whether it be cut content, cut difficulty, changed job design or everything else the game is truly not going in the direction I want it to

Sure I’m one person and square has obviously found a strategy that works for the longevity of the game but it’s certainly a direction I don’t like and I’m getting really tired of it, 1 forgettable extreme per patch, a savage tier that may have 1 standout fight out of the 4 every 2nd patch (12 eden fights gave us what shiva and edens promise as the only actual amazing fights) and ultimates which I we are lucky to get one per expansion.

The content just isn’t there anymore and I can’t keep hiding my growing disdain behind “oh let’s go do aglaia again I’m sure that’ll make me feel better”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly (and the OF’s can ridicule me for this I don’t really mind) I’m on my last legs with this game, I’ve played for years and watched the volume of content that’s directed at me get paired down further and further with each expansion, whether it be cut content, cut difficulty, changed job design or everything else the game is truly not going in the direction I want it to

Sure I’m one person and square has obviously found a strategy that works for the longevity of the game but it’s certainly a direction I don’t like and I’m getting really tired of it, 1 forgettable extreme per patch, a savage tier that may have 1 standout fight out of the 4 every 2nd patch (12 eden fights gave us what shiva and edens promise as the only actual amazing fights) and ultimates which I we are lucky to get one per expansion.

The content just isn’t there anymore and I can’t keep hiding my growing disdain behind “oh let’s go do aglaia again I’m sure that’ll make me feel better”

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I've basically accepted that this game isn't for me and the developers are openly telling players like me "Hey, we don't want you here, love it or leave it" and my decision is going to be "leave it" when I'm done. I know the new tier is coming out, don't really give a shit at this point. It's going to be the same old same old, and I'm sure P5S will be on the same difficulty of E5S and then everyone will say "LOOK YOSHI WAS RIGHT THEY INCREASED HEALING REQUIREMENTS SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP STOP COMPLAINING GO BACK TO WOW DOOMSAYERS THE GAME IS GOOD YOU'RE THE MINORITY TOXIC ELITIST RAIDERS" etc etc. I feel like there's legitimately no point even bothering posting on these forums really anymore either. I've lost my motivation to even really care about the game anymore, I don't participate in online discussions anymore, I don't read about it anymore, I simply just don't care. I'm apathetic. I enjoy the game as a vehicle to spend time with friends, but beyond that I no longer have any passion for it and doubt I ever will again. They've burnt through pretty much all of my goodwill, as dramatic as that is to say.

I have a group of friends I play with and I swapped to DPS. That's pretty much what keeps me around. That and making fun of this game's horrible playerbase on the forums. There is *never* a low in engagement or difficulty for which you won't find a thread on the general forums raging that it's "too hard", with an alarming amount of likes.

The GCBTW meme is real, and there's a significant portion of this game's playerbase that not only wants to watch a movie that plays itself for them, but expects a shower of accolades telling them what skilled players they are for it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly (and the OF’s can ridicule me for this I don’t really mind) I’m on my last legs with this game, I’ve played for years and watched the volume of content that’s directed at me get paired down further and further with each expansion, whether it be cut content, cut difficulty, changed job design or everything else the game is truly not going in the direction I want it to

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So, honest question: How much of what you feel might be characterized as "the game's difficulty/skill level increases more slowly than my own experience/skill level rises to meet it" vs. "the game's difficulty is remaining the same or actually decreasing over time"? My own limited experience (~1 year) places me in the former camp, so it's interesting to me if it's actually the latter.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

So, honest question: How much of what you feel might be characterized as "the game's difficulty/skill level increases more slowly than my own experience/skill level rises to meet it" vs. "the game's difficulty is remaining the same or actually decreasing over time"? My own limited experience (~1 year) places me in the former camp, so it's interesting to me if it's actually the latter.

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There is definitely an element of I’ve gotten better and so the game feels easier but the game has gotten demonstrably easier in the time I’ve been playing it (I’m a legacy player), for me the best class that we ever had in this game was HW SCH, that class was hard, rewarding and interesting and the raid tier it was part of was also challenging, unique, interesting and different. At the same time what people would call casual content was demonstrably more difficult, old Pharos Sirius, thordran ex basically being a third floor savage, old diadem. Sure a lot of this was clunky but it doesn’t mean that I didn’t appreciate the game actually used to challenge me

These days if I have problems with content I get told to go do savage, yeah savage, how many bosses have protean at this point, protean+Raidwide+tank buster has been the opening sequence for how long now, plus I have to do these terrible unimaginative bosses on the classes that barely hold a fraction of the difficulty they once did

Just overall nothing is close to the old difficulty it once had

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

So, honest question: How much of what you feel might be characterized as "the game's difficulty/skill level increases more slowly than my own experience/skill level rises to meet it" vs. "the game's difficulty is remaining the same or actually decreasing over time"? My own limited experience (~1 year) places me in the former camp, so it's interesting to me if it's actually the latter.

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Having been around for about a year, the biggest piece of context you're missing is job engagement. Most of the jobs in this game (and healers most pointedly) used to have FAR more engaging toolkits. They had slightly more involved damage rotations (Scholar had five DoTs, Shadowflare, WHM had three different levels of Aero and Fluid Aura to maintain, AST at least had several more DOTs), they had a few buffs and debuffs they could manage (Eye for an Eye, Virus, Disable, the fairy damage buffs, the lower level versions of damage spells had debuffs attached to them that made them worth spending a GCD on every now and then, Stone 1 used to apply Heavy, Ruin 2 used to apply Blind), the hilarious bloat of a gazillion oGCD free instant heals didn't used to be anywhere near this bad.

The general consensus is that after a major stumble on the release of Stormblood, they hit the beginning of fun design with AST and SCH. Unfortunately, though several of us former WHM mains still remember complaining in that era, WHM was designed like....well, like healers are currently designed, plus a hot diarrhea version of the lily system. We told Square over and over again that WHM sucked and they needed to do something about it. Instead they decided that WHM was the good one, and murdered the entire role.

It's not that each expansion's content is easier than the last, it's that they make the entire game easier and dumber on every expansion's release.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We can zero GCD heal savage, hell P1 is an absolute joke, savage barely even deserves the title now

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Did a run of p1s min ilv the other day and that really brought home just how much of a joke it is. It's still practically solo-healable with no GCD heals.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I have a group of friends I play with and I swapped to DPS. That's pretty much what keeps me around. That and making fun of this game's horrible playerbase on the forums. There is *never* a low in engagement or difficulty for which you won't find a thread on the general forums raging that it's "too hard", with an alarming amount of likes.

The GCBTW meme is real, and there's a significant portion of this game's playerbase that not only wants to watch a movie that plays itself for them, but expects a shower of accolades telling them what skilled players they are for it.

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I would say on the other end of the spectrum there are players who want to be exalted above all others for completing Savage or Ultimate. They want special privilege and status above other players.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I would say on the other end of the spectrum there are players who want to be exalted above all others for completing Savage or Ultimate. They want special privilege and status above other players.

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I've encountered those, though very seldom. Savage and Ultimate are just content. Though it's not a guarantee, having completed those is an indicator that a player is more likely to know more about how the combat system works and how their job(s) play.

Having been on the forums since Heavensward though, I can say that the forum culture outside the healer subsection emboldens the heck out of sneering, self-assured You Don't Pay My Sub types who pat each other on the back over how hard Copperbell is and circlejerk that everyone who breathes the word "savage" is a WoWfugee sweatlord ruining the bestest casual game evar. That "unengaging job design" is meaningless technobabble because one-button jobs are super fun, knowing how much damage you do is cheeeeeeeeating, and the most pressing issue facing Final Fantasy 14 that holds it back from true greatness is not its stupidification every single expansion, but not having enough hairdos for their bunnygirl.

I have no problem with casuals. I roll my eyes at ^ those people.

other than having a extra guaranteed rez, no not really. I never touch my healing buttons during alliance raids, Other than an occasional ogcd regen, if my cohealer hasn't put one out already.