PVP Crystalline Conflict do NOT need to be solo queue or full party queue

People saying that it's dead on arrival pvp mode and no one will play because you can't queue with friends...lmao on OCE there is more people in wolves den than anywhere else.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

No. Stop being disingenuous. You want to roll randos. That's all you want. If it wasn't about that you'd be asking for premade vs premade options. You aren't, none of you "I just want to play with friends :(" people ever ask for that, instead you're asking to be able to roll up in a full premade against a group of randoms. Why? Because you don't want any challenge and just want to roll disorganized groups that don't stand a chance against your organized party full of people who are all in voice chat and able to communicate past extremely limited pre-written speech buttons.

I'd have some semblance of respect for you if you'd just admit this is what you truly want.

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https://media.tenor.com/images/44b56...9d62/tenor.gif

Its like a gacha machine for what it spits out for each team. It could be anything for what you get. In some ways it feels like a coinflip of who is more likely to win from just the astra/umbra screen alone based solely on team comp.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Its like a gacha machine for what it spits out for each team. It could be anything for what you get. In some ways it feels like a coinflip of who is more likely to win from just the astra/umbra screen alone based solely on team comp.

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Sort of. But that depends more on individual performance of People you have already encountered (and memorized) rather than a job thing. Most People are and always will be bad at PvP, simply because they dont intent to put as much effort into it as they do in other types of content which is both understandable and normal.

It is only annoying that they dont realize, is that RANKED GAMES are about INDIVIDUAL performance in a random enviroment. If you want to play with Friends, do custom matches, simple as that. I am sure that most casual Players out there have more than enough FC Members and Friends to do so and if you dont, just use the Partyfinder and find other Groups. Creating a PvP Team is still a thing as far as i am aware.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Sort of. But that depends more on individual performance of People you have already encountered (and memorized) rather than a job thing. Most People are and always will be bad at PvP, simply because they dont intent to put as much effort into it as they do in other types of content which is both understandable and normal.

It is only annoying that they dont realize, is that RANKED GAMES are about INDIVIDUAL performance in a random enviroment. If you want to play with Friends, do custom matches, simple as that. I am sure that most casual Players out there have more than enough FC Members and Friends to do so and if you dont, just use the Partyfinder and find other Groups. Creating a PvP Team is still a thing as far as i am aware.

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You even state it yourself, you have to hope the enemy team of randos are worse skilled than your team in terms of performance. And that is compounded on the RNG nature of the team comps.

Let's start by saying that ranked is taken out of the equation for very obvious balance reasons. So we're left with unranked for premade play.

Going "it's fine if my team of 5 premades roflstomp 5 randos! I have the right to play with my friends!" is really not the way to go. Your demand to be able to play in a premade doesn't cruch the right for solo queuers to have their fun (which often start by not having an unfair matchup).
Spliting the unranked queue is also not a great idea. After the first wave of people trying PvP for a few days will have died down, it'll probably still be popular enough to get fast queues, but not enough to guarantee them if they were different queues.

So what now? Well, we actually can have a middleground where premade are allowed in unranked, without splitting queues, while also mitigating the impact on solo-queuers.
All it takes is a smart matchmaking system with these rules:

- You are allowed to queue as a premade group of 2 to 5 players.
- The matchmaking system will try to match you against a similar group in terms of premade/solo-queuers ratio. Possibilities are (1 is a solo-queuer, the others are premade): 2+1+1+1 // 3+1+1 // 4+1 // 5 // 2+2+1 // 2+3. The matchmaking system will try to have the same repartition in both teams.
- This means that the matchmaking system will make you wait for a set amount of time if no other group(s) of premades is available yet to be matched against (assuming you queue with a premade, obviously).
- If the matchmaking system did not find enough players to match you against the same party composition in terms of premade/solo-queuers, it'll try to launch a game the fairest way possible. This means that if there's currently a premade of 3 players and another premade of 4 players, both will fight against the other (after filling the rest of the spots with solo-queuers, obviously).
- If the matchmaking system did not manage to organize a fair game (example: only one big premade is queuing), the matchmaking will still launch a game by filling the spots with solo-queuers.

Example1 in sequence:
1. You queue as a group of 4 people.
2. The system finds another group of 4 people, fills the remaining slots with solo-queuers.
3. Off you go. Happy game.

Example2 in sequence:
1. You queue as a group of 4 people.
2. You wait 3-4mn (this is an example for the timers. It'll have to be fine tuned).
3. The system didn't find another 4 players premade, and is now trying to organize the "fairest" game it can.
4. The system finds a premade of 3 players, and another one of 2. You'll go 4+1 vs 3+2, as that's what the system found ready and is somewhat fair.
5. Off you go. Somewhat happy game.

Example3 in sequence:
1. You queue as a group of 4 people.
2. You wait 3-4mn (this is an example for the timers. It'll have to be fine tuned).
3. The system didn't find another 4 players premade, and is now trying to organize a fair game.
4. You wait 3-4mn again (this is an example for the timers. It'll have to be fine tuned).
5. The system didn't find any other groups to make a fair game. You'll go 4+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1
6. Off you go. Probably bad game, but at least people are playing.

In exemple3, the randos are probably going to get stomped, but since this system doesn't really make solo-queuers wait, their pain will be over quickly and they probably won't get matched against you again if you requeue at the same time.
So, they had a bad time, but you waited. Everyone's experience is certainly not great in that case, but at least everyone gets to play and know that the system tried its best.

You can even grant solo-queuers a bonus (Wolf marks, exp... whatever) if the system has to take the route of example 3. And the bigger the premade you're against, the bigger the bonus. Why not.

I honestly think this is more fair for solo, since the problem of team play was highly gate keeped by a small group that made PvP un fun to try and this has brought in new players in. Perhaps they can seperate the Team play with Solo ranked that way for those who just want to play with strangers can play with them instead of being targeted by a group of friends. This PvP style should not change unless they add a ranked team co op with other teams in seperation for solo Que. This was the major change to eliminate the gate keeping or trade wins as what the devs stated.

Speaking from experience in other pvp games... 95% of the time people are incapable of telling when they're facing a premade. People just love to ascribe 'premade' as a justification for why they lost, because it's easier than accepting blame on their own performance.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

Speaking from experience in other pvp games... 95% of the time people are incapable of telling when they're facing a premade. People just love to ascribe 'premade' as a justification for why they lost, because it's easier than accepting blame on their own performance.

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swtor players were notorious for this. You'd always see complaining in chat about premades and I'd look at the enemy team and its all random players lol. The opposite is also true that they never even think twice about the actual premade of casual players that they are beating because they don't notice premades when they are winning a match or when the premade is on their team.

I don't have a problem with ranked having a solo mode (though honestly at this point I don't think there really should be a ranked mode), but the unranked mode should absolutely allow groups.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

swtor players were notorious for this. You'd always see complaining in chat about premades and I'd look at the enemy team and its all random players lol. The opposite is also true that they never even think twice about the actual premade of casual players that they are beating because they don't notice premades when they are winning a match or when the premade is on their team.

I don't have a problem with ranked having a solo mode (though honestly at this point I don't think there really should be a ranked mode), but the unranked mode should absolutely allow groups.

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Back when I used to play LoL, and WoW, and WC3, and heck... prettymuch every pvp game I've ever played... I used to play mostly solo(because my wife hasn't always been interested in the same games as me like she is now with ffxiv ;)). And I'd get accused of being premade with people all the time... at least once or twice a week.

And ya, exactly... the times when they have a premade who isn't being super obvious about it on their team... nope. The wins are because of their skill, the losses are because of some made up premade.

This premade panic is so ridiculous to me.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

Back when I used to play LoL, and WoW, and WC3, and heck... prettymuch every pvp game I've ever played... I used to play mostly solo(because my wife hasn't always been interested in the same games as me like she is now with ffxiv ;)). And I'd get accused of being premade with people all the time... at least once or twice a week.

And ya, exactly... the times when they have a premade who isn't being super obvious about it on their team... nope. The wins are because of their skill, the losses are because of some made up premade.

This premade panic is so ridiculous to me.

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I mean atleast with LoL theres websites that show when ppl are queued with friends, its helpful intel to know that Mid/Jng are duo so you can set up extra vision out of the assumption theyll try to make plays together.

I forgot that balance was taken into consideration after seeing some jobs limit breaks.

I just wanna play with friends, and believe it or not, I still lose even with premades! Wild I know. Because apparently being in a premade is suppose to mean you JoJo pose into the game, say some junk in Japanese and suddenly the enemy team just loses as your whole group villain laughs in the background as stonks go up because premades have never and will never ever lose in PvP.

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Originally Posted by AbandonHopeTD

People saying that it's dead on arrival pvp mode and no one will play because you can't queue with friends...lmao on OCE there is more people in wolves den than anywhere else.

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It's certainly not doa but I doubt it'll have staying power down the road after most get rank 25 n get their coffer

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Example3 in sequence:
1. You queue as a group of 4 people.
2. You wait 3-4mn (this is an example for the timers. It'll have to be fine tuned).
3. The system didn't find another 4 players premade, and is now trying to organize a fair game.
4. You wait 3-4mn again (this is an example for the timers. It'll have to be fine tuned).
5. The system didn't find any other groups to make a fair game. You'll go 4+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1
6. Off you go. Probably bad game, but at least people are playing.

In exemple3, the randos are probably going to get stomped, but since this system doesn't really make solo-queuers wait, their pain will be over quickly and they probably won't get matched against you again if you requeue at the same time.
So, they had a bad time, but you waited. Everyone's experience is certainly not great in that case, but at least everyone gets to play and know that the system tried its best.

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So, the solution to the worst case scenario is to make things worse... hrm, no...

How about if there's no groups to match you with, your even group is split into two groups against eachother, and any odd members randomly selected stay in the que?

I would rather it be soloqueue than have to go up against premades. I believe most gamers are solo queue more than they are in premades. As a soloqueuer myself, I don't want to deal with a ranked gamemode where I might go up against premades.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

So, the solution to the worst case scenario is to make things worse... hrm, no...

How about if there's no groups to match you with, your even group is split into two groups against eachother, and any odd members randomly selected stay in the que?

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The only "worse" it gets is that the premade would've waited a bit. Besides, knowing the system tried and that was the last resort definitly ease the pain for everyone as you can blame the situation on something specific instead of simply "bad luck". Also, emphasis on "last resort" that will only happen once in a while and will very likely not be the default. The previous gates that matchmaking have to go through are a good compromise for everyone. And again, a game is 5mn tops. Not that big of a deal.

Btw, this solution isn't new or original. It's used in a bunch of PvP games, especially mobas.

Also, forcefully splitting a group of players is probably not gonna happen for various technical reasons. But mostly because that's pretty much the opposite of what these players wanted. So not only they'd have waited, but also now not get what they wanted which was playing in the same group on the same side.

In short, that you had to type "worst case scenario" and the fact that the outcome isn't that bad all things considered makes me pretty confident about this kind of solution working as a compromise and handled by the matchmaking itself.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

"I don't care about fairness, my needs must be satisfied"

I feel like you're being overdramatic. If you wanna play with friends, play a different mode. This mode prioritizes fairness and fun over "playing with friends".

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There is no fun without your friends.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I been playing it since patch went live and one more win away from getting silver. I been going up and down with wins. If you’re a healer you are an instant target. So it hasn’t changed since feast. Still same old same. “See healer, thrash healer” was gonna switch to dps but I love healer.

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It's not just healers with targets on their heads.

Looking back it's wild there's still no group queue for casual CC. :( I remember seeing this image saying that prohibiting group queue was just temporary in a LL, but maybe it was just a mistranslation or something. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...01/unknown.png

It feels awful to try to sync casuals with friends, have one person get passed up on the pop, and have to decide between leaving them behind to wait for anywhere from 2-30min ...or having everyone eat a DF strike to attempt a re-sync. It's casual! It's just for fun! I believe the positives of letting friends play together outweigh the negatives; there are plenty of people out there who won't play PvP alone and wouldn't queue up otherwise. A little imbalance is OK, so long as there's a place players can go to play (presumably lol) balanced games. Even better, if dissatisfaction with premade teams pushes more people to queue ranked.

I can understand excluding premades from ranked. Matchmaking is already straining against the low player population and it would break completely if top players could stack together. We don't have the population to sustain team ranked queue, though it'd be nice if we did someday. It's better for everyone if we can get more people playing PvP in one form or another.

I also think it could also be beneficial to allow undersized/imbalanced private CC matches. If 4 friends want to play 2v2 CC together, they should be able to! Moreover, it would open CC maps to exploration and gpose. It's a little silly that there's no way to familiarize yourself with map mechanics outside of a live game.

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Originally Posted by hexxxx

It feels awful to try to sync casuals with friends, have one person get passed up on the pop, and have to decide between leaving them behind to wait for anywhere from 2-30min ...or having everyone eat a DF strike to attempt a re-sync. It's casual! It's just for fun! I believe the positives of letting friends play together outweigh the negatives; there are plenty of people out there who won't play PvP alone and wouldn't queue up otherwise. A little imbalance is OK, so long as there's a place players can go to play (presumably lol) balanced games. Even better, if dissatisfaction with premade teams pushes more people to queue ranked.

I can understand excluding premades from ranked. Matchmaking is already straining against the low player population and it would break completely if top players could stack together. We don't have the population to sustain team ranked queue, though it'd be nice if we did someday. It's better for everyone if we can get more people playing PvP in one form or another.

I also think it could also be beneficial to allow undersized/imbalanced private CC matches. If 4 friends want to play 2v2 CC together, they should be able to! Moreover, it would open CC maps to exploration and gpose. It's a little silly that there's no way to familiarize yourself with map mechanics outside of a live game.

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Exactly, ranked can stay solo queue, but unranked should at least allow people to play with their friends in a group. Pretty crazy that there is a team based tournament for this game mode, when there is no team queue at all! The pipeline for growing PvPers to learn team tactics is non-existent.

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Originally Posted by Latorn

Exactly, ranked can stay solo queue, but unranked should at least allow people to play with their friends in a group. Pretty crazy that there is a team based tournament for this game mode, when there is no team queue at all! The pipeline for growing PvPers to learn team tactics is non-existent.

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While I agree that queueing as a duo or at most trio (latter is risky for impact) should become a thing, I have to note that the team-based tournament has been trained for utilizing third-party platforms such as Discord to organize scrims and custom tournaments for a long time now. They make use of the Custom Match function which requires preforming two teams. Rewards are none, its essentially just a tool for private matches.

Again, just make the matchmaker adjust premade to premade ratio, and you fix the problem. I'm not saying to bring premades and teams into ranked though, but in casual? Sure, if one side has a 3 man premade, then the other will get a 3 man premade. Or 3 vs 2+2, idk.

I mean you can play with your friends by syncing queue with the eorzean time in game, but the problem is that youcan end up on the other team. And Yes, There is only two of us, but evem that can be a big advantage. We often get triple kills just lining up gunbreaker andwhite mage's lb

I don't think they can, or the fall off in player engagement doesn't matter enough to bother with it. You see the same problem in MMO pvp over and over again Valence. It's always randoms and new players who are just trying play vs seal team six. It's so reductive that people hide behind "I want to play with my friends" instead of just admitting 'I came to pub stomp'. Imagine the outrage if people received a handicap debuff based on number of players in a preformed party. All of you using voice coms and queue syncing against randoms are sick in the head and spit in the very face of fair competition. You should be ashamed.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I don't think they can, or the fall off in player engagement doesn't matter enough to bother with it. You see the same problem in MMO pvp over and over again Valence. It's always randoms and new players who are just trying play vs seal team six. It's so reductive that people hide behind "I want to play with my friends" instead of just admitting 'I came to pub stomp'. Imagine the outrage if people received a handicap debuff based on number of players in a preformed party. All of you using voice coms and queue syncing against randoms are sick in the head and spit in the very face of fair competition. You should be ashamed.

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That's a lot of projection mate. Not everyone who'd enjoy playing with at least ONE friend is here to pubstomp.

I'd prefer if they simpy did a mixed solo+duo queue and let results speak rather than reading the ad verbatim regurgitated argument that duos will result in pub stomping when becoming a feature.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

That's a lot of projection mate. Not everyone who'd enjoy playing with at least ONE friend is here to pubstomp.

I'd prefer if they simpy did a mixed solo+duo queue and let results speak rather than reading the ad verbatim regurgitated argument that duos will result in pub stomping when becoming a feature.

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Historical evidence supports that claim. It's a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Historical evidence supports that claim. It's a terrible idea.

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I will rather risk history repeating itself for half a patch so we can see results in this game with this format than to be a stubborn and stagnant doomsayer hoping zero changes are happening.

We can't have good changes if we don't try out things and occasionally have bad ones so no offence but screw your historical evidence and everything it stands for.

You can always have your "told you so" moment when it actually is done and implemented in an honest fashion. I cant have mine if I never get the chance.

You know, it's a real shame that there is no compromising with some. With the way this thread is going and the frontlines one I can honestly see pvp being ran by soloists and experience point farmers in the near future.

I do feel sorry for those that wants to premade with at least one other person. If you don't have a group of 10 you're SOL. I do have to ask though since I'm posting. I don't necessarily need an answer to this question. If the focus is to have fun and not put an emphasis on winning why is there a huge fuss on premades? Just asking.

Anyways, enjoy dealing with the queue syncers in the non peak hours. The mode is just too small to get rid of them all.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I will rather risk history repeating itself for half a patch so we can see results in this game with this format than to be a stubborn and stagnant doomsayer hoping zero changes are happening.

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I'm so sure that calling it crystalline conflict will change the inevitable conclusion that we saw play out in feast.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

We can't have good changes if we don't try out things and occasionally have bad ones so no offence but screw your historical evidence and everything it stands for.

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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You can always have your "told you so" moment when it actually is done and implemented in an honest fashion. I cant have mine if I never get the chance.

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I don't care to live through hell just so I can claim victory on the fact that it is indeed hot.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

If the focus is to have fun and not put an emphasis on winning why is there a huge fuss on premades?

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What is fun Irika? Is it fun to play with friends? It can be. Is it fun to strive against insurmountable odds so someone else can have fun at your expense? One persons fun ends where another's begins. Who is to say one is more important than the other?

As to your other comment of pvp being ran by soloists and exp farmers that depends. Exp farming is fine so long as you actually participate. The issue is there is no active policing of the bad behaviors going on. Soloist is actually preferable for many people. None of my friends are into pvp and I don't generally enjoy the pvp community as they tend to be really toxic.(read some of these threads) That in mind do I matter less because I don't have a squad of murder hobos waiting on discord for me to log in?

i understand why you cant group with your friend to some point for the ranking system , unless they make it where, you can only group with friend if you are to verse pre-made group, like party finder vs party finders. but i dont understand way you cant go in to casual as a group , it like your going to get a reward for being the best and coordinated

if you comparing it to wow you had to find your friend to do arenas matches

Game would be unironically better if they implement any form of pre-mades for CC, I've seen so many people beg for the ability to play the ONLY arena game mode with there friends that the number of people it would bring in would be great. Just implement a solo queue separate from group queues or just have good enough matchmaking to not have solo players go up against full stacks. I personally don't have an issue of fighting full pre-made groups, but I know I am a minority with how many people I see talk about how 4 man pre-mades ruin Frontlines. I just think the pros of having the majority of the player base be able to have fun with there friends is more important than the minority of people who just want to pub stomp a random dad who has 12 kids and only has 2 hours of free time a week to pvp.

Lennit You could compare it to wow but you don't have to. We already had all of this happen and resolve right here in this game in the previous mode that was replaced with Crystalline conflict. Why should one team get an advantage over the other? Hell, it isn't even fun to play with a group of friends when you're the odd man out in any content. Ninety percent of dungeon groups where a group of friends came in together are miserable and often involve or end in unnecessary toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Lennit You could compare it to wow but you don't have to. We already had all of this happen and resolve right here in this game in the previous mode that was replaced with Crystalline conflict. Why should one team get an advantage over the other? Hell, it isn't even fun to play with a group of friends when you're the odd man out in any content. Ninety percent of dungeon groups where a group of friends came in together are miserable and often involve or end in unnecessary toxicity.

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i don't agree it should be a group of friend verse a pug , i think if you what to play with your friend through a party finder option you should have to verse other players that are doing it the same way to make it fair. and i was not talking about the toxicity of wow , that's the player doing and only the player doing, players can try and do that here if they want to see the inside of ffxiv jail

And i was pointing out why they don't make it optional. pre-made vs pre-made for casual match because there is No way of getting a reward of the top 100 players , it technically a fun match you cant do it with your friends

and that is why i was saying party finder not duty finder

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I don't think they can, or the fall off in player engagement doesn't matter enough to bother with it. You see the same problem in MMO pvp over and over again Valence. It's always randoms and new players who are just trying play vs seal team six. It's so reductive that people hide behind "I want to play with my friends" instead of just admitting 'I came to pub stomp'. Imagine the outrage if people received a handicap debuff based on number of players in a preformed party. All of you using voice coms and queue syncing against randoms are sick in the head and spit in the very face of fair competition. You should be ashamed.

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That's not what i'm suggesting though? What is this strawman you're building and how does it even relate to what I was saying?

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's not what i'm suggesting though? What is this strawman you're building and how does it even relate to what I was saying?

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I'm saying that in reality I don't think they can strictly make it premade vs premade because the pool of actual participants for that is too small. I then elaborated that the drop off in participation for such match making would make it pointless anyway. This is opinion but based on experience.

Not all of the post is directed at you just the first part. That's why I didn't quote you.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I'm saying that in reality I don't think they can strictly make it premade vs premade because the pool of actual participants for that is too small. I then elaborated that the drop off in participation for such match making would make it pointless anyway. This is opinion but based on experience.

Not all of the post is directed at you just the first part. That's why I didn't quote you.

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i come to the forum to leave suggestions , not to know the answer if it would work or not, i can make that judgement when it's in the game. if i need to be attack every time i post here, i could just click support desk and leave my idea with the gm themselves.

this is a 2year old game for me no matter how many years i miss out on or change's that happen before i got here. i'm not going to go against something i never have seen gone wrong

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Originally Posted by lennit

i come to the forum to leave suggestions , not to know the answer if it would work or not, i can make that judgement when it's in the game. if i need to be attack every time i post here, i could just click support desk and leave my idea with the gm themselves.

this is a 2year old game for me no matter how many years i miss out on or change's that happen before i got here. i'm not going to go against something i never have seen gone wrong

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It's a forum, forums are for discussion. If your feelings are so fragile you can't deal with opposition perhaps you should avoid forums.
I support dropping suggestions in the box and in all likelihood, it holds as much or more weight as anything posted on the forum.
If you have to experience it to have it matter, then what's the point of anything. That's a single player mentality btw.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

It's a forum, forums are for discussion. If your feelings are so fragile you can't deal with opposition perhaps you should avoid forums.
I support dropping suggestions in the box and in all likelihood, it holds as much or more weight as anything posted on the forum.
If you have to experience it to have it matter, then what's the point of anything. That's a single player mentality btw.

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dont reply to me anymore ,, i dont need your opinion