Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

I registered to say: Revert Samurai changes. I can't play my main Samurai anymore. I will drop the game forever if it will stay as it is.

The changes need to be reverted. I would only keep the third eye buff and maybe tenka goken's new aoe shape. it's true that it contributes to more homogenizing and doesn't make a lot of sense, but on the other hand it is an ok qol change and adds to consistency.

I would prefer they bring back Kaiten, they could even reduce SAMs dmg further.

No seriously. The devs evidently didnt understand what Kaiten means for gameplay of Samurai. As of now, absolutely no Kenki managment is needed anymore: if you get Kenki, just empty your bar by spamming Shinten. There is no longer planing for your burst phase, no longer the good feeling you had when you managed to press the right buttons in a short period of time. A great part of challenge the job gave you is now gone and only boring spamming remains. Instead of pressing the right button at the right time you just press Shinten when you can, which barely reduces your APM overall. Also, what defined the SAM where the high dmg number from Midare/OgiNamikiri/Kaeshi which were only possible with Kaiten.

But as i said at the beginning, its not about the dmg. Kaiten was one, if not THE core abillity of the Samurai and by removing it, they actually managed to give the SAM player a worse gameplay experience. Even if the DMG numbers may go up in the future, the lack in gameplay will remain, until Kaiten is brought back.

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Originally Posted by LucyelaKatamura

I would prefer they bring back Kaiten, they could even reduce SAMs dmg further.

No seriously. The devs evidently didnt understand what Kaiten means for gameplay of Samurai. As of now, absolutely no Kenki managment is needed anymore: if you get Kenki, just empty your bar by spamming Shinten. There is no longer planing for your burst phase, no longer the good feeling you had when you managed to press the right buttons in a short period of time. A great part of challenge the job gave you is now gone and only boring spamming remains. Instead of pressing the right button at the right time you just press Shinten when you can, which barely reduces your APM overall. Also, what defined the SAM where the high dmg number from Midare/OgiNamikiri/Kaeshi which were only possible with Kaiten.

But as i said at the beginning, its not about the dmg. Kaiten was one, if not THE core abillity of the Samurai and by removing it, they actually managed to give the SAM player a worse gameplay experience. Even if the DMG numbers may go up in the future, the lack in gameplay will remain, until Kaiten is brought back.

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I wouldn't want to compromise on this. The feeling of how the job plays out does matter. Or else we would all play the same job, or we might as well be playing a text based browser game without all these flashy animations and sounds.

The numbers is a hard concept to really convey. Strictly speaking on performance, perhaps say on something like a spreadsheet, yeah it's not that bad if you ignore the fact that you will never get the ceiling performance. But that alone is really downplaying how hard the changes have hit us. However, most people are willing to accept that loss. What people will not accept, however, are the numbers the finishers are doing, our hardest hits. It is just as visually important as the sounds and animations. Changing the redistribution so the satisfaction of how your best moves feel is very important to a lot of people.

That said, this is why most are asking to revert back to 6.08, and not simply add Kaiten back. You might feel like that is an okay compromise, but people will still be left unsatisfied.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I wouldn't want to compromise on this. The feeling of how the job plays out does matter. Or else we would all play the same job, or we might as well be playing a text based browser game without all these flashy animations and sounds.

The numbers is a hard concept to really convey. Strictly speaking on performance, perhaps say on something like a spreadsheet, yeah it's not that bad if you ignore the fact that you will never get the ceiling performance. But that alone is really downplaying how hard the changes have hit us. However, most people are willing to accept that loss. What people will not accept, however, are the numbers the finishers are doing, our hardest hits. It is just as visually important as the sounds and animations. Changing the redistribution so the satisfaction of how your best moves feel is very important to a lot of people.

That said, this is why most are asking to revert back to 6.08, and not simply add Kaiten back. You might feel like that is an okay compromise, but people will still be left unsatisfied.

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I would not accept my big hits going even less. Hell no. I struggle to hit 35k per Midare, let alone Ogi Namakiri now. It feels so unsatisfying to wait 2 minutes to do the same damage as a Midare, which takes 8 GCDs to get out and both hit not only for the same, but the autocrit doesn't add much.

Getting Kaiten back but hitting with a wet cardboard sword is even worse than our current wet noodle hits indeed.

I registered as well to post my complaint. I am a SAM main and I would like SE to revert these changes ASAP. No one was asking for this, no one likes it, everyone wants 6.08 back. Don't fix what isn't broken, don't break what was already fixed.

Adding my 2 gil, Samurai charges are suffering.
Pls save me

Last update for the night. Feedback is still very much active in the communities and now there are more who start to question the silence of SE. See you in a few hours!

I'm with a lot of people. These changes make me question if they were even playtested at all. The release of them was ill-timed, and not enough feedback was taken in to consideration on them. Revert this crap back to 6.08 and stop making us shinten bots.

Or, allow us to get refunds on our gear that we spent time collecting so we can use it for other roles. I much prefer seeing samurai be reverted to its 6.08 iteration and discussing reworking problems, but also we shouldn't be locked in to our gear choices if someone comes along and decides to upend how the class plays. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Last update for the night. Feedback is still very much active in the communities and now there are more who start to question the silence of SE. See you in a few hours!

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At this rate we won't be hearing anything at all until 6.2 where they will nerf SAM again.

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Originally Posted by KYuuma

At this rate we won't be hearing anything at all until 6.2 where they will nerf SAM again.

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Yeah, but yall didn't really get nerfed but maybe 3% if that. Your rDPS went down, but in that's just from loosing crit synergy, your actual DPS as maybe 5% which honestly isn't that big of deal. You are still the top DPS, just by a smaller margin.

Good day. I have some time on my hands, so I wish to share something specific more players have started to say.

"For the Future"

At the rate this is going, the future job "adjustments", is it even right to call it that at this point? Well, it will be for the worse.
At that time, they will ask for your understanding stating it is "For the Future".
Of course, everyone is not blind to the fact other jobs are no strangers to this.

I don't believe in a future with a present that is not enjoyable. It doesn't matter how "necessary" it is, or how "It will be the best future and you will be able to enjoy it then".

Many try to point out that they realize that job adjustments are necessary, but how much of this was brute forced on us leaves many questioning why. And the one word they bring up time and again.
"Future"

The timing is also questioned, especially before the Ultimate fight. Even the casual players are saying this.
More speak up about why it was only one job this time, when the goal was to change critical synergy. It should have been the system that changed, rather than the job.

The feedback has been a constant and steady stream. It will probably pick up in the weekend as they continue to give us the silent treatment.

Reminder that similar to Monk, Samurai now has a viable meme rotation. Spam Yukikaze with Hagakure with Shinten. Keep buffs up and only then you will use your Iaijutsu. Ignore the rest of your kit, how very engaging.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Yeah, but yall didn't really get nerfed but maybe 3% if that. Your rDPS went down, but in that's just from loosing crit synergy, your actual DPS as maybe 5% which honestly isn't that big of deal. You are still the top DPS, just by a smaller margin.

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Edit: This is just downplaying. You are quoting an average. And this isn't even what most people are concerned about in the first place. The impact of the changes affects how happy people are playing the job. Period. That is pretty much unanimous.

Hello,

let me preface this by saying that I never posted on the forums but after trying out these changes ingame, I absolutely felt the need to speak up. In general, I’m happy with nearly everything released with the 6.1 update but I’m extremely disappointed with the changes to Samurai. I’ll try my best to cluster my thoughts and overall feedback because most of them seem to correlate to one another:

Job Identity and “feel” of the job

I really liked the buildup that the Job had before the patch, where you collect different Sen with your combos and used Kaiten to prepare for your big casting "finishing Move". For me this set the Job apart from other Melee. The animation of Kaiten and the following Iaijutsu are paramount to the feel of the Job.

Without Kaiten especially all Iaijutsu feel just like any other random button that u press in the Rotation and at that point you are asking yourself why they even have a cast time. For Ogi Namikiri and the Kaeshi-variant this doesn't feel that bad to me because the animation already sells that feeling really well. If you look at the Samurai demonstration in the Stormblood Trailer or Job Action Trailers in general there is almost always heavy emphasis on these slow, heavy hitting Actions, right? Without Kaiten that feeling of the job is greatly diminished.

Tenka Goken suffers the same fate as the other Iaijutsu skills regarding not feeling like a “Finisher” without Kaiten. Changing it from a cone to a circle made this specific problem even worse for me. I was okay with changing Fuko to a circle aoe because u still had to move in and out before using Tenka Goken correctly. After the patch you just plant yourself in the middle of the pack and don’t have to give thought to anything you are doing. I would revert the change to Tenka Goken to underline the difference between your normal circle aoe skills and the Iaijutsu.

Kenki Management and button/ability bloat

With the Removal of Kaiten there is basically no Kenki Management anymore. Sure, if you played correctly before the patch, you didn’t really have to think about it a lot but right now you can basically press Shinten whenever you can and forget about the gauge altogether. This also feels more spammy and a lot less satisfying. Even if the total usage on Kenki spending abilities is a few casts lower per fight it doesn’t feel like that because you repeatedly press the same button.

If the target was to remove either button or ability bloat, there are bigger offenders like Shoha 1/2 or Ikishoten and Ogi that have already been discussed in large by the community. I also think that the argument that Kaiten is a useless necessity because you must press it before every Iaijustu just doesn’t hold any ground in a game that massively relies on Combo Actions.

If Kaiten is problematic or a hindrance for future updates to the job, then I am sure there are ways to combat this other than completely removing it (e. g. reducing the effect and adjusting potencies or changing the effect in other ways). If you are absolutely keen on removing Kaiten I would at least wish for three things: consider upping the frequency of Ogi Namikiri and its Kaeshi-counterpart to one minute and try to make all the Iaijutsu animations more flashy (I think the Ogi animations look really cool and are a great example) to make up for losing Kaiten. Very slightly reduce Shinten usage and up the potency to counteract, so each shinten feels more meaningful and deliberate.

Autocrit, Potencies and Party-Synergy

The fact that Samurai is a “selfish DPS” job and absolutely wants to capitalize on buffs from its party members makes Samurai one of the last jobs that should ever get a change like this. I understand that there might have been a big disparity between good and bad pulls because of crit RNG but I don’t think this makes or breaks a whole job to justify this change. It is good to have classes with different damage profiles, that’s what makes them special and appealing. I think in this regard the reduction to the Iaijutsu skills aswell as Ogi and its Kaeshi-counterparts went a little bit overboard. I would rather have some very big hitting skills instead a broad spread of potencies that don’t really fit with the aesthetics of the job. This again ties into the feel and identity of the job but if it would be one thing where I must make a compromise, this would be it.

Even if the Job is completely fine damage-wise after the patch, the Autocrit change could drastically change community perception and probably lead to people not wanting Samurais in their Party. If you feel like there seems to be a problem or limitation for the whole combat-system, then please bring a solution that targets the root of the cause and not it’s symptoms.

Positives

Besides all the negativity I think the change to Third Eye is very good. It makes general use of the ability easier and creates more use cases in hectic situations when you want your Third Eye to carry over into your next GCD-window. It also gives players the ability to minmax their damage reduction and Kenki generation in fights where raidwides are frequently used by the boss. I think this is a great change that benefits every Samurai player from casual to hardcore.

General Thoughts and Conclusion

Looking back at the changes I just can’t make any sense of most of it and am left with one too many concerning questions. Why change something that wasn’t broken with changes seemingly no one asked for? Most of the changes didn’t accomplish their goal and some are starting to create even bigger problems than they are trying to solve. I would also argue it’s bad timing because lots of people are still progressing Savage and it’s even worse for players which are preparing for the upcoming Ultimate. Why not make those changes leading up to the next Tier so players can adjust and change jobs if they really don’t like the changes to their job?

I think overall the changes have way too many downsides for trying to solve something that doesn’t need immediate fixing. For now I would revert the changes besides the extra second for Third Eye and plead that you take your time with changes that tackle the whole combat system and job identities until you can confidently present an encompassing solution. If you absolutely have to make a dent in the old Samurai-Kit just because, then reduce or change the effect of Kaiten and shuffle the potencies of the skills again. I would hate to see the Samurai playerbase shrink over these changes but as is, I don’t see any other way – I certainly wont play Samurai in this state.

Loving the feedback folks, keep it up. As an aside to all the new posters, it's a quirk of the official forums that you can edit a post after posting it and extend your post past the normal character limit. So if you would like to make a single post instead of a series, you can just type the whole thing out, cut and paste the part past the "limit," post the amended post and then edit the cut text back into the original for a single full-size response.

It's a weird workaround that's been a part of this place since day 1 for some reason.

I've shelved my SAM until such a time they fix the mess that's been made. I guess it's back to NIN for now.

I completely agree with the community's thoughts on job identity. I've always fell in love with the setup of different sens to unleash a devastating attack, and Kaiten has always been the perfect cherry on the top to meet the fantasy. Now without Kaiten the combo just feels a lot more dull and uninteresting, feels like I'm just doing some insignificant GCDs while spamming Shinten.

I also agree on the discussion regarding the new circle AOE from Tenka Goken. At first I thought I'd be supportive on the changes from cone to circle AOE, but upon some dungeon spam I found that doing my AOE rotation feels a lot more dull. The removal of Kaiten definitely plays a role here, but another factor I'm certain is the fact that I do not have to move around to hit my AOE.

I don't know how others feel, but to me melees has always been interesting in how they managed their AOE rotations. Ninja with Doton and Katon mixed together, Dragoon with their unique line AOEs, and Reaper with their cone AOE OGCD. Samurai was once one of them with the cone on Tenka Goken, requiring me to think where to position and line up for the perfect devastating attack. Now with the change to it being a circle, it feels a lot more dull and boring when doing packs.

I agree with the circle changes to Warrior, as being a tank pulling mobs is a great responsibility, and missing some mobs with the cone AOE makes me feel irritated. However I believe for melee dps more options can be explored when doing their AOEs to make them more active and involving.

This is my first time using this forum. Should any devs or community managers read this comment, I'd like to thank everyone of you for your incredible work and dedication to make this game so wonderful. Thank you, sincerely.

Personally SAM fell off for me after the additions of more charges to unnecessary skills so you can get more "booms".

Adding more Meikyos, Tsu charges did nothing for expanding SAM. Removing Kaiten only reinforced more Shinten spam to control your Kenki.

I'm not going to touch on Hagakure vs Ikishoten because clearly one had more thought put into it.

If they didn't know how to expand SAM, they should have just opted for more QoL changes rather than "we know you like a lot of boom so we're adding more of that," and creating more of a messy rotation that isn't satisfying because you see it so often.

MOOOOOOM! WHY DOES MY MIDARE DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS A SHINTEN????
I’m so glad we went through that whole hagakure shit show in shadowbringes to get rid of shinten spam only to..... arrive back at shinten spam.

PLEASE LOOK FORWARD TO IT.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Personally SAM fell off for me after the additions of more charges to unnecessary skills so you can get more "booms".

Adding more Meikyos, Tsu charges did nothing for expanding SAM. Removing Kaiten only reinforced more Shinten spam to control your Kenki.

I'm not going to touch on Hagakure vs Ikishoten because clearly one had more thought put into it.

If they didn't know how to expand SAM, they should have just opted for more QoL changes rather than "we know you like a lot of boom so we're adding more of that," and creating more of a messy rotation that isn't satisfying because you see it so often.

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This is an important bit. I think the major root of the SAM "spike" damage problem lies in how we're forced to dump everything into a two minute window instead of having it spaced out more evenly. The lows are much lower if you don't get those juicy direct crits but the high's are much higher if you do, so this creates that damage variance they are so concerned about. The addition of charges on Kaeshi and Meikyo just locked SAM into a 120s rotation instead of it's 60s rotation from ShB, and since every raid buff now falls in that same 120s cycle there is so much more damage to be gained when a SAM pools charges for raid buffs.

That should have been factored into their calculations, but either it wasn't or else they didn't think it would be that big of a deal. Hell, with the way things have gone recently I half expect them to believe that the player base would have treated the charges as something to help keep the CD rolling. "Easing" the pressure to absolutely use Kaeshi on CD as soon as it came up again. But if that's the case then whoever made that decision doesn't know how the game works; raid buff alignment with big damage CD's has been the name of the game since Coil. In short, the devs created the very problem that they're now trying to fix, but instead of walking back the changes that resulted in the problem they've taken a chainsaw to the job and called it balance.

Coming from a super casual that likes things to be fun over all else, even I think all DRG and SAM AoEs should be cone/line and the other 3 mDPS should be circle AoE. For tanks, their AoE combos should 1st hit cone (longer range) and 2nd+ hit circle (shorter range).

If they want us to use 3rd Eye, change it to 15/30s cd, reduce dmg by 25/50%. I simply do not care about a negligible 10% dr.

The Kaiten outrage is surprising to me. Always felt like a nerfed Life Surge from DRG and I never felt it was part of their core identity. Identity for me was always "lots of combos", inherited from its FFXI roots of being able to skill chain with yourself. Still have this hanging around in a txt file:

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~~ LVL 71 ~~
Tachi: Gekko
Tachi: Yukikaze
SC: Induration (50%)
Tachi: Gekko
SC: Fragmentation (100%)
Tachi: Kasha
SC: Light (300%)

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Big hit is secondary identity, but is still there, at least for me: Midare does 66% more than 2nd highest potency regular attack I have plus crit - if that's not your definition of a big hit, I don't know what you want. In a burst window, you can still do 4(?) of these, and they all crit - we have 4 free cherries on top, instead of 1 that we had to place there ourselves. Animations and "fantasy" feeling are personal; so ignoring that, am I missing something about Kaiten (still a bit low level)?

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Originally Posted by forumerror

Coming from a super casual that likes things to be fun over all else, even I think all DRG and SAM AoEs should be cone/line and the other 3 mDPS should be circle AoE. For tanks, their AoE combos should 1st hit cone (longer range) and 2nd+ hit circle (shorter range).

If they want us to use 3rd Eye, change it to 15/30s cd, reduce dmg by 25/50%. I simply do not care about a negligible 10% dr.

The Kaiten outrage is surprising to me. Always felt like a nerfed Life Surge from DRG and I never felt it was part of their core identity. Identity for me was always "lots of combos", inherited from its FFXI roots of being able to skill chain with yourself. Still have this hanging around in a txt file:


Big hit is secondary identity, but is still there, at least for me: Midare does 66% more than 2nd highest potency regular attack I have plus crit - if that's not your definition of a big hit, I don't know what you want. In a burst window, you can still do 4(?) of these, and they all crit - we have 4 free cherries on top, instead of 1 that we had to place there ourselves. Animations and "fantasy" feeling are personal; so ignoring that, am I missing something about Kaiten (still a bit low level)?

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You might have not played enough to get a feel for it. There's the combos but they all build up to that one big hit. Replacing Kaiten for stuff like auto crits makes the gameplay far more static and moves the engagement to just spamming Shinten which, for many, is far less enjoyable. There's no management of kenki, just spam it all into the spenders ASAP

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Originally Posted by forumerror

Coming from a super casual that likes things to be fun over all else, even I think all DRG and SAM AoEs should be cone/line and the other 3 mDPS should be circle AoE. For tanks, their AoE combos should 1st hit cone (longer range) and 2nd+ hit circle (shorter range).

If they want us to use 3rd Eye, change it to 15/30s cd, reduce dmg by 25/50%. I simply do not care about a negligible 10% dr.

The Kaiten outrage is surprising to me. Always felt like a nerfed Life Surge from DRG and I never felt it was part of their core identity. Identity for me was always "lots of combos", inherited from its FFXI roots of being able to skill chain with yourself. Still have this hanging around in a txt file:


Big hit is secondary identity, but is still there, at least for me: Midare does 66% more than 2nd highest potency regular attack I have plus crit - if that's not your definition of a big hit, I don't know what you want. In a burst window, you can still do 4(?) of these, and they all crit - we have 4 free cherries on top, instead of 1 that we had to place there ourselves. Animations and "fantasy" feeling are personal; so ignoring that, am I missing something about Kaiten (still a bit low level)?

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Your Samurai is level 58 and you are missing traits that buff your basic hit potency, among many other things. This is why you do not see the complaints we have. If I had to put it in FF11 terms, take out the skillchains and that's what gameplay is like right now for Samurai at 90. Edit: That may be too extreme, but my memory on combat in ff11 is a bit hazy. If someone else wants to elaborate I think it will be better.

Totally agree. It feels like the devs think the player base is stupid and incapable of learning a more complex rotation.

And the “button bloat” justifications are getting out of hand. The controller settings in this game are so accessible, even jobs with a lot of buttons like GNB in ShB wasn’t bad if you knew how to use R2+L2 and W-cross hotbars.

SMN went from having a complex rotation to now mostly pressing one button.

SAM without kaiten feels empty, and the kenki gauge feels incredibly boring because we no longer have to look at it aside from preventing overcap with ikishoten. Squeenix please, stop the oversimplification of jobs.

I'm usually more or less chill with other changes but removing kaitan is so bad that I had to create forum account to give feedback. Having to wait awkwardly before every midare bugs me to no end. They need to bring back kaitan ASAP.

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Originally Posted by jetteaime

Totally agree. It feels like the devs think the player base is stupid and incapable of learning a more complex rotation.

And the “button bloat” justifications are getting out of hand. The controller settings in this game are so accessible, even jobs with a lot of buttons like GNB in ShB wasn’t bad if you knew how to use R2+L2 and W-cross hotbars.

SMN went from having a complex rotation to now mostly pressing one button.

SAM without kaiten feels empty, and the kenki gauge feels incredibly boring because we no longer have to look at it aside from preventing overcap with ikishoten. Squeenix please, stop the oversimplification of jobs.

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Definitely feel this sentiment right here. There is streamlining, then there is oversimplifying or "dumbing down", which is what happened for me and classes I played in WoW over the years. It is not a great feeling to have for classes a player loves to main. I want the Devs the believe in the players more and that even if something seems daunting at first, that we will figure things out. I love samurai so much that I just played it over and over till i could play it and know it like the back of my palm. When i looked at some guides, I had most of the concepts down, just some small ideas I didn't know fundamentally as a player, like slide casting for instance. Once I understood these concepts, it only elevated my execution of the job, and it felt incredible to execute samurai at such a fine tuned level.

This instance with the devs makes me think of what they did with monk in ShB when they removed Greased Lightning Stack management, and made Tornado kick a oGCD. It fixed the issue for monks having a clunky mechanic with GL they had to manage, and that using Tornado Kick was actually detrimental and discouraged to be used (their lv60 capstone ability). However, it made it very boring for the rest of ShB for me. The main difference for when they changed monk was in the middle of the ShB as opposed to Samurai being early in EW. This was their way of prepping for Monk's rework for Endwalker, and I will say is very successful in its rework. Monk has a very fun and engaging rotation, and has a more identifiable class flavor and fantasy.

Now with that said, if they are planning to do something similar to Samurai, I ask: Why? And what for? And of all times, why now? As far as I am concerned, Samurai has been a solid job for most of its life cycle. I know it had some bumps here and there, but nothing as detrimental as this. They would need to show me the concepts and tooltips for future reworks to convince me because right now, I am not convinced. Button bloat is not the problem, oversimplifying is the real problem. I want Kaiten back.

Ya'll are still on this, eh? Do you think if you screech long enough they will change it?

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Ya'll are still on this, eh? Do you think if you screech long enough they will change it?

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They wanted feedback, they're bloody well getting feedback

Hello hello!

Apologies for the low activity today, had a birthday I had to attend and other matters. As for news today, Black Mage has been a very popular talking point and for good(?) reason. Also, remember that point about exclusion? Yeah.

Taken from a discord: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png
Welcome to Stormblood!

I usually dont post in the official forums. but i wished to add a +1 to the SAM complaints here. SAM does not feel fun anymore SE, and this is the biggest issue i have with the job. i dont get the point in casting for a 25k or so midare setsugekka. i already didnt quite enjoy cast times so much as a melee, but now it feels even more lackluster when the number behind it doesnt match what it should for a cast as a melee. and no im not saying removing all cast times from SAM would fix my issues with the job because it wouldnt, but i will say that the iiteration prior to this update was far more acceptable. it felt aesthestically good and fun to use this job. now it feels like someone sliced open samurai and didnt finish the job, but left it to bleed.

I went back in the forums history, before I joined the Forums. Apparently a ton of " Do not remove Kaiten " posts to be found. And the more thread posts I read, the more angry I got... the amount of players ignored, I can't describe the frustration nor the frustration of all those players ignored. We're going full circle, posting about why Kaiten should not have been removed, a massive mistake by SE to have done this.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I went back in the forums history, before I joined the Forums. Apparently a ton of " Do not remove Kaiten " posts to be found. And the more thread posts I read, the more angry I got... the amount of players ignored, I can't describe the frustration nor the frustration of all those players ignored. We're going full circle, posting about why Kaiten should not have been removed, a massive mistake by SE to have done this.

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Yeah, anyone who played SAM seriously understood that removing Kaiten wasn't going to feel good. Plenty of us even went the good faith route and took Kaiten off our bars pre-6.1 to give it a try, and yeah, it was just all Shinten spam. Very one dimensional, very boring, just like we were used to when alliance roulette would give us CT only with an extra button tacked on. And this was before we knew that we'd be getting potency cuts or that Tenka would be changing.

But they still went through with it. For the first time in a long time I have no faith in this dev team as far as job balance goes. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of stuff, such as tank homogenization ("the complexity would come from the fight!") and healer dps kit minimalization ("they'll introduce more difficult healing challenges once things are balanced!" but now it's clear that the goal isn't fun for the player base, it's apparently to ease the work load for the devs. I don't begrudge them wanting to work smarter instead of harder but what they've done here is just pure laziness, and it's clear that said laziness has been the guiding force behind job balance for quite some time now.

I no longer have that faith in this team, not from a job balancing perspective. 6.1 is, by all accounts, a good patch. The story is great, with lots of fun, interesting beats to it, balanced with a good mix of serious stuff, comedy and some great character background. The new pvp is quite entertaining, the 24-man and 4-man are on-point, hell, even the new Prae and Ultima Weapon fights are fun and engaging in a way that addresses a long-standing criticism about the lack of "intermediate" adventurer training. Even DRK and WHM are doing well for themselves as far as balance goes, with some great (and long-awaited in the case of Blood Weapon and LD) changes.

But then the NIN, MCH and SAM changes (or rather for MCH, the lack of real changes) rear their ugly heads and I just find myself wondering who on earth could have approved these. Was it Yoshi P.? Did he really know what he was giving the OK to? Did he care? Is it just that he's woefully ignorant? Did he trust his subordinates too much and believe that if they put something on his desk then it was good to go? Is he just fucking incompetent when it comes to anything not-BLM? I've never felt the need to ask questions like this before because I always had faith. A hard-earned faith that the dev team won over a long period of time, starting with their rescue of 1.0 and turning it into 2.0. It's a faith that I've built up since I first helped out in the 2.0 alpha, and while they've made mistakes they've generally done right by the players in correcting them.

I hope my faltering faith will be restored. I hope Yoshi P. and his team will see the mistakes that they have made, not just with SAM but with so many other jobs. This drive towards simplification needs to stop. Healers need more engaging DPS kits, tanks need more engaging moment-to-moment gameplay that isn't boss-reliant, various DPS jobs have long-standing issues that need to be addressed and SAM absolutely needs to have 100% of the changes done in 6.1 reverted back to 6.08, if not even further (I would love to see Kenki gain based on correct positional returned to us instead of boosted positional potency like it is now).

Morning folks. Another day, and still we have received exactly 0 responses from anyone on Square Enix's side. It's par for the course, but disappointing nonetheless.

Don't give up though! There are still people talking about this issue. And that is exactly what we need. A lot of people's hopes are riding on this being addressed in 6.11, in time for Ultimate. Revert the changes to 6.08 for Samurai.

Additional image. Of course, let's not take it too seriously...but like others have said, it does make me wonder.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...46/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

What I don't get is why does the new Way of the Samurai II increase base Kasha/Gekko/Yukikaze by 20 potency, but the combo and rear/flank combos by only 10? No one is going to be using the base version without a combo unless they severely screw up.

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Those free style sam will hate you for giving this info away my dude

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Strongly disagree with this. Having to constantly re-position was a major headache. Moving to dodge an attack (or just tanking one with Third Eye) won't feel nearly as bad.

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Bro, you are melee dps. Moving is what make it fun, dont wanna move , range and caster will welcome you at the open arm. Also, if kaiten is a hurdle, good it should be. That give a job some way to express your skills. If the job has no way to punish you when you play the class wrong, its not fun. Look at NIN, mudras can be messed up, less dmg and give you bunny on hat to shame you. Its fun that way. What are you gonna do about NIN now? Remove mudras since they are hurdle and punishing?

While everyone is asking for the changes to be reverted back to 6.08 I'd like to add on to those reversions. We could literally still have everything SAM every had from 4.0 with what we have now. I may not know how numbers in this game work, nor do I pay attention to them outside of the occasional glance at the number that flashes on screen above my target, but like.... with the way jobs have been getting transforming buttons under certain status procs, there's no reason why we can't bring back older skills now.

People have already gone on to show why 'button bloat' isn't an issue, and plenty have gone well into detail about why 'APM action bloat' hasn't been fixed either due to the removal of Kaiten.

So while we're on the train of asking for things back, I want to ask for more:
Third Eye - Open Eyes was a good thing. Open Eyes can change Third Eye to Merciful Eyes (and please, increase the heal of that to at least be similar to Second Wind role action) / Open Eyes can also change Shinten into Seigan with increased potency OR reduced cost (and that is the one I want most alongside Kaiten back)

Ikishoten change into Ogi Namikiri into Kaeshi Namikiri. I am legitimately confused why this wasn't already a thing to begin with. Reading the tooltips (and somehow missing the fact it had no such text of *This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar) I thought that was how it worked and went into 90 content without the ability to use it outside of the actions & traits window. That should be changed.

Senei and Guren... seems to be a 50/50 split on folks who want these to be merged or stay separate. Alternative, make another status proc to change Shinten and Kyuten into Senei and Guren respectively.

Shoha 1 and 2, I will say seems kind of lazy. While logical, the theming on SAM has typically always felt on point. I think Shoha can upgrade to targeted aoe with fallout splash. Or potentially they could make the effect dependent on how many meditation stacks there are. 3 minimum to use. 5 for a medium and 8 for maximum effect.
(The 8 suggested is intentional. With how many jobs have become more referential to characters in FF6, MNK got Blitz from Sabin, MCH got a decent chunk of Edgar's tools, SAM iaijutsu being based off Cyan's sword tech that had to wait for a charge to use)

While this would be a lot of work to include and adjust, I personally believe that a toolset shouldn't be completely changed unless it was already bordering on unplayable.

TL;DR - Don't nerf or take away. Add onto what's there and bring back what was taken away.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Yeah, but yall didn't really get nerfed but maybe 3% if that. Your rDPS went down, but in that's just from loosing crit synergy, your actual DPS as maybe 5% which honestly isn't that big of deal. You are still the top DPS, just by a smaller margin.

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Im sorry but for a selfish dps, to do less dmg is an important thing. Other classes bring something to the table, raid buff, raise, healing buff, etc. For sam, they bring nothing, beside dmg and now doing less dmg than before. Now with auto crit, some raid buff has no meaning which create the problem, why bring sam when they do less dmg, no synergy. If you need a melee with top dps, bring RPR; they even give you the extra 3%dmg up as a gift. My group even ask me if i could change to rpr for now.

Just created an account to support the notion of giving back Kaiten to SAM. To be completely frank I'm not really fond of crit farming so the guaranteed crits don't really bother me that much, but holy hell does it feel god damn soulless to play without Kaiten.

Now we are just a shinten bot.

https://i.imgur.com/GDRPUvG.png

peak gameplay right there....

Seems my previous post was almost prophetic. First the insane job changes for SAM, now a completely borked housing lottery system. Just what the hell is going on over there?