Critique of Endwalker Characters

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Stranger than Fiction was also a great movie when it spoke upon death and how impactful it is to the plot of a story.
This will always be my favourite quote:



Warning EW spoiler

When the scions "die" at the end of EW, it felt cheap. It was predictable what was going to happen. They're going to live, of course.
Had I the choice of writing, Alisae would have persihed in the crossing scenario of Garlemald.
Theancred would have perished and been the soul guiding essence on Ultima Thule.
Yshtola would have given her life to break Meteion's Ultimatum instead of Zenos.
As a result of these deaths, Estinien would have become tempered and become more loyal to protecting what the scions stand for. Perhaps even the new leader.
Alphinaud would become detatched and angry (which could lead to a personal questline where we are able to change his attitude or let him be)
The consequences of motions of deaths changes things that imo must be changed.

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There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Ramjet , now there's a character name I've not heard since the 80s

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I was actually enjoying and agreed with this post until your very last sentence starting from that but; because I never made any effort or attempt to deflect the criticism. I didn't even say the criticism was unreasonable. That is a twist off what I said. What I was implying is that there will always be people that dislike a main cast of characters and that no individual story driven plot will please everyone with it's characters.

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Yes, of course main characters will always be disliked. Just like stories will always be disliked. Or side characters. Or outfits. Or anything, really. Nothing will ever be liked be evreybody, not even cats.
The point of this topic was to discuss how and why many EW characters feel bland and boring to people so I'm genuinely curious what your point was when stating the obvious "nothing will ever please everyone" when this topic was never about pleasing everyone because that has nothing to do with them being main or side chaarcters.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Yes, of course main characters will always be disliked. Just like stories will always be disliked. Or side characters. Or outfits. Or anything, really. Nothing will ever be liked be evreybody, not even cats.
The point of this topic was to discuss how and why many EW characters feel bland and boring to people so I'm genuinely curious what your point was when stating the obvious "nothing will ever please everyone" when this topic was never about pleasing everyone because that has nothing to do with them being main or side chaarcters.

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Man way to be rude about it
I'm sorry my point went over your head

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I really don't mind the "fake deaths one after another" thing in Ultima. On the one hand, it's a story trope in itself, but more importantly it's a matter of putting yourself in the character's mindset.

It doesn't matter what you the viewer know about the likelihood of them all being revived in half an hour's time, because the characters don't know they're in a story. What matters is the grief and resolve your character must be feeling in that moment – no choice but to press on, no choice but to sacrifice themselves one after another on the small hopeful gamble that you will be able to reach Meteion and unravel it all, but also keenly aware that you might not.

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THIS

I've read tons of stories or watched shows or movies where it was patently obvious what was going to happen. But I was intrigued and interested by what the character experiences when it happens. And I was still left guessing on exactly how it would all go down.

If we couldn't appreciate things when we know what's going to happen, then we'd just be left with media that constantly tries to one up the last guy because everything would have to be unexpected and shocking and bigger and better. And writing quality would go into the gutter because the best of those sorts of unexpected events have those little nuggets of hint through the story that sometimes you don't catch until a second read/viewing.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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Because their stories are over and yes, in a story where you're killing thousands of nameless enemies, to be taken seriously your side needs to take losses as well. If everyone is walking around with impenetrable plot armor we may as well play Disney Online because no matter how dire the situation there is zero tension.

But I know there is a contingent who thinks none of the characters they like should ever die and they try to setup reductionist gotcha arguments to support that, usually by asking disingenuous questions.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Stranger than Fiction was also a great movie when it spoke upon death and how impactful it is to the plot of a story.
This will always be my favourite quote:



Warning EW spoiler

When the scions "die" at the end of EW, it felt cheap. It was predictable what was going to happen. They're going to live, of course.
Had I the choice of writing, Alisae would have persihed in the crossing scenario of Garlemald.
Theancred would have perished and been the soul guiding essence on Ultima Thule.
Yshtola would have given her life to break Meteion's Ultimatum instead of Zenos.
As a result of these deaths, Estinien would have become tempered and become more loyal to protecting what the scions stand for. Perhaps even the new leader.
Alphinaud would become detatched and angry (which could lead to a personal questline where we are able to change his attitude or let him be)
The consequences of motions of deaths changes things that imo must be changed.

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See another take I disagree with is that the main cast had to die for the story to be interesting or impactful. Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed any of the deaths in that spoiler tag at all, and losing those characters in those ways more than likely would have tanked my own enjoyment of the story.

Death isn't the be all end all negative consequence and I don't think it's at all necessary to tell a good story. I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think Endwalker was spectacular or anything, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. But then I also don't mind a cheesy cliche if it's entertaining, and for me the UT story was.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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I don't agree with the general calls that someone should die for the sake of some arbitrary quota of meaningfulness, or because they've finished their story arc, but for those specific story events it absolutely would have been appropriate for those characters to die in those situations and it would have been a good story point.

For all that I like G'raha and it's nice that he's still with us, pre-5.3 he was so heavily waving the death flag that i was all steeled to bid him farewell and have a good cry over a well-earned death scene in a story with running themes of the impermanence of life... and then he didn't die, and I still have mixed feelings over that. From the characters' perspective, it's a happy thing that he survived; from a story theme perspective, I don't think it was really the best narrative outcome. (But he's here now, and he's a lovable dork, so no use fretting over it.)

Done right, at the right time (that being very sparingly, and not sacrificing regular cast members once per expansion), character death can be a really good thing and an ongoing rallying point for fans to remember the character fondly, and as an ongoing plot point in the story itself.

I agree that a portion of the fanbase might not take it well – I might not have once upon a time either, but I think that has changed with maturity, and perhaps it is experiencing more of those plots that teaches you to appreciate them. If the Exarch had died it would be sad but in a bittersweet way and he was, ultimately, an old man who had lived through a lot and seen all his lifelong goals come to fruition, and somehow the story needed to resolve the fact that he was immortal and that was made out to be an undesirable thing in the long term.

I've said before – I think he should have truly died there even if they still wanted us to wake young G'raha up afterwards. Make him a separate character and not a continuation of the Exarch. Pass along his memories, but not his soul.

I do think the writers are spooked by the thought that some of the fandom might be "sad" if characters die. I recall them implying in an interview that they had considered another ending for 5.3 but wanted to give us a happy one since the real world had been rather miserable of late with the pandemic and everything. Though oddly, contradictorily, the sadder ending might have been the more enjoyable one for me.

All that said, there aren't any points in Endwalker's narrative as it stands that feel like any one person should have rightfully died. I think for what was going on in Ultima it really has to be all of them or none of them surviving in the end, not just one somehow arbitrarily failing to reconstitute. Though instead we get Hades and Hyth at long last getting the voluntary "return to the star" that their race views as a good death at the end of achieving their goals.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

It's kinda funny that I start the game already liking the scions, and still was after ShB. In fact I was worried that something going to happen to them in EW. But after EW... I just can't care less about them. Though I still love thancred (yes, I'm bias lol). Out of everyone in the scions, thancred has lost the most and outright admit he's been suicidal. Imo he can become more like our version of emet; no-nonsense, willing to do anything, yet still has the charm.

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Yep, I'd say Thancred is probably the most tolerable one to me - his looks don't hurt, either. Followed by Estinien and sometimes Urianger and Y'shtola (mainly during SHB tbh... she at least made an effort to understand Emet-Selch.) But there's not one of them I'd be particularly sad to see die at this point... though that is with the caveat of whatever were to replace them being better.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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You do have me quite curious. At what point do you think would have been a good place for a main character death if an apocalypse that once decimated the entire planet isn’t one? And fights against the unsundered aren’t one as well.

Another factor to consider is that, for those of us who have been playing since ARR and HW...the game's mature tone and realistic consequences is in some cases what sold us on the experience rather than 'comfort characters' and zero stake conflicts.

The model of sympathetic antagonists losing absolutely everything because they were forced into an impossible situation through no fault of their own even as the protagonists proclaim that they're so hard done by because some weird looking Roegadyn with a half-shaved head died back in ARR is wearing thin.

JRPG's never used to be afraid to be bold and daring, so I think that it is a genuine shame that the genre is now plagued by excessive fanservice based around predictable and stale 'comfort characters'.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You do have me quite curious. At what point do you think would have been a good place for a main character death if an apocalypse that once decimated the entire planet isn’t one? And fights against the unsundered aren’t one as well.

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I am fully on board with the Wol dying. I want to see us pull a Kratos, get killed fight our way back to life pissed off and ready to make heads roll!! *Rawr*

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Estinien had an incredible character developement. He was vengeful, taciturn and reserved at first, got into plenty of arguments with Ysayle and if not for the company of the WoL and Alphinaud, they would've tried to kill each other and he always came across as so focused on revenge and bloodshed that he didn't live; as if he only lived for killing Nidhogg and when he did, he might as well just die. Then he gradually learned there is a different side to this war, saw something akin to family in Alphinaud again and grudgingly worked with his former enemy that was responsible for killing many of his countrymen and ultimately respected her to the point of visiting Azys Ly to pay his respects to her.
His thirst for revenge got him turned into Nidhoggs host. He attacked his own city, killed his own countrymen and was willing to kill himself to end it. And after that he took it as a second chance, helped the WoL from the shadows, traveled the world to keep an eye of things, forged bonds with dragons and whenever he appeared he seemed to have lightened up a bit, cared for Alphinaud more openly, showed a sense of humor. He stood his ground when he disagreed with something or just took matters into his own hands because he simply isn't the type for lengthy diplomatic sessions. He had some views others disagreed with and it was fine, he had some problematic traits and it was also fine.

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The bit about the character conflict can't be over-stated, IMO. Some of the most fun encounters I had in older RPGs, like Baldur's Gate 2, was trying to manage the NPC disagreements, which would sometimes result in them fighting to the death or taking your leave of the party. These aren't the only ways to resolve such conflicts, and it's obviously not feasible to the same extent in an MMO like this one, but it helped highlight the strength of their convictions and differences in these. The closest they came in FF14 is indeed Estinien and Ysayle and, although he never joined the party, Emet-Selch following your party around on the First. This helped show more facets of the characters and thus avoided reducing them to mere sounding boards for certain viewpoints.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I am fully on board with the Wol dying. I want to see us pull a Kratos, get killed fight our way back to life pissed off and ready to make heads roll!! *Rawr*

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Tbh…i feel as though either that or a scion dying was originally planned. Especially with Zenos in the final ShB patch saying “You will come to me full of rage…” But then that is just completely dropped and never mentioned in EW. As well as the missing fandaniel line in the trailer of “Destroy them, destroy them all.” Too many things cut and missing that don’t make sense.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Because their stories are over and yes, in a story where you're killing thousands of nameless enemies, to be taken seriously your side needs to take losses as well. If everyone is walking around with impenetrable plot armor we may as well play Disney Online because no matter how dire the situation there is zero tension.

But I know there is a contingent who thinks none of the characters they like should ever die and they try to setup reductionist gotcha arguments to support that, usually by asking disingenuous questions.

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There are plenty of instances especially in the JRPG genre where the story has plenty of tension and depth and the main cast doesn't die. Previous Final Fantasy games and the JRPG classic that is widely considered a masterpiece Xenogears come to mind.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There are plenty of instances especially in the JRPG genre where the story has plenty of tension and depth and the main cast doesn't die. Previous Final Fantasy games and the JRPG classic that is widely considered a masterpiece Xenogears come to mind.

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Many ff games have main character deaths though, i’m not sure why this is often stated not to be the case. Ff2,4,5,6,7,10,12,13 to name a few

Imo killing off characters because their stories are "over" is not good storytelling a lot of the time. Doesn't mean that it can't be done well at all, it certainly can, but there seem to be too many writers out there who do it just because they can't think of anything else to do with a character and that's just rather weak. I would rather see characters continue to live and find happiness andore opportunities for personal growth than just arbitrarily cut all that short because their "done".

You don't need to kill off characters to make them interesting-but after 8 years of this ridiculous amount of plot armor and fakeouts people are just out of patience. Doesn't matter how, just get the yes-men off the screen.

Lackluster backstories combined with nonexistent goals gives me hardly any reason to root for any of the scions besides Estinien. After everything characters like him and Ysayle had been through, why should I care about Urianger and how he was bullied for reading books? Top it all off with their barely-present personality traits and overt fanservice "slice of life!" scenes just wears my patience down further.

Remember when Celes attempted suicide and jumped off a cliff into the ocean in what was one of the most beautiful and dramatic scenes in the entire FF series? Or when Garnet cast down her tiara as she ran to embrace Zidane in a genuine display of emotion? The numerous times when Zidane and Steiner went at it with each other? Lightning punching Snow in the face in response to one of his long-winded "hero!" speeches? Even Jack from Stranger of Paradise is more interesting, outright rejecting the stereotypical fantasy nonsense going on around him because he just wants to kill Chaos and probably go out for a smoke.

Half these scenes I mentioned above would be too problematic or traumatic for some fans of this game to handle, it seems. Imagine the reaction twitter would have if we ever saw a character with Zidane's personality re-emerge in the series. Instead we get G'raha Tia and the fanclub go out for hamburgers: the expansion! Can't wait to go get sushi or something with Thancred in 6.1, hopefully the story of Myths of the Realm will make up for the lack of anything interesting going on with the main cast these days. The writers need to ask themselves:

What is this character's main goal?
What is this character's motivation to achieve this goal?
Who does this character get along with and who do they dislike?

If the answers to these questions are nebulous ideals, "supporting my friends," and getting along with just about everyone under the sun who isn't an Ascian or Garlean then respectfully there needs to be some reconsideration in how to handle these characters moving forward. Add in the building blocks that are missing, or let them take an extended vacation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Many ff games have main character deaths though, i’m not sure why this is often stated not to be the case. Ff2,4,5,6,7,10,12,13 to name a few

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Depends on your definition of main character. Many of the games you mentioned have guest or side characters die. Minwu, Josef and Ricard were not the main party. None of the main party in 6 die unless you leave Shadow behind but I believe I read somewhere the creator's canon version is waiting for him and he survives. Reddas was a guest character. X and XIII if taken alone though even Fang and Vanille didn't die but turned to crystal and we know characters can be restored from that.

Now that's not to say that side character deaths can't be impactful. I often see a lot of complaints that only side characters die in XIV and we weren't connected to them so it's meaningless. I personally have always remembered the deaths of Josef and General Leo, even if they are side characters and I find plenty of the XIV deaths impactful because I truly liked those people.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Many ff games have main character deaths though, i’m not sure why this is often stated not to be the case. Ff2,4,5,6,7,10,12,13 to name a few

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Yep! There's also many other JRPG's that were bold enough to kill off major playable characters, including but not limited to Suikoden V, Grandia 2, Breath of Fire 4 and Shadow Hearts.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You don't need to kill off characters to make them interesting-but after 8 years of this ridiculous amount of plot armor and fakeouts people are just out of patience. Doesn't matter how, just get the yes-men off the screen.

Lackluster backstories combined with nonexistent goals gives me hardly any reason to root for any of the scions besides Estinien. After everything characters like him and Ysayle had been through, why should I care about Urianger and how he was bullied for reading books? Top it all off with their barely-present personality traits and overt fanservice "slice of life!" scenes just wears my patience down further.

Remember when Celes attempted suicide and jumped off a cliff into the ocean in what was one of the most beautiful and dramatic scenes in the entire FF series? Or when Garnet cast down her tiara as she ran to embrace Zidane in a genuine display of emotion? The numerous times when Zidane and Steiner went at it with each other? Lightning punching Snow in the face in response to one of his long-winded "hero!" speeches? Even Jack from Stranger of Paradise is more interesting, outright rejecting the stereotypical fantasy nonsense going on around him because he just wants to kill Chaos and probably go out for a smoke.

Half these scenes I mentioned above would be too problematic or traumatic for some fans of this game to handle, it seems. Instead we get G'raha Tia and the fanclub go out for hamburgers: the expansion! Can't wait to go get sushi or something with Thancred in 6.1, hopefully the story of Myths of the Realm will make up for the lack of anything interesting going on with the main cast these days. The writers need to ask themselves:

What is this character's main goal?
What is this character's motivation to achieve this goal?
Who does this character get along with and who do they dislike?

If the answers to these questions are nebulous ideals, "supporting my friends," and getting along with just about everyone under the sun who isn't an Ascian or Garlean then respectfully there needs to be some reconsideration in how to handle these characters moving forward. Add in the building blocks that are missing, or let them take an extended vacation.

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IX is my favorite game and I absolutely love Zidane but you cannot complain about a character being covered in ridiculous amounts of plot armor and not acknowledge that he was covered from head to toe in it, too. We knew he wasn't going to die. There was absolutely no way the game was going to end like that. And the only reason they give for how he stayed alive? I sang our song. Now I LOVED that ending. I cheered to see them together again. But that was Plot Armor 101. Which just shows that plot armor is not always a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Depends on your definition of main character. Many of the games you mentioned have guest or side characters die. Minwu, Josef and Ricard were not the main party. None of the main party in 6 die unless you leave Shadow behind but I believe I read somewhere the creator's canon version is waiting for him and he survives. Reddas was a guest character. X and XIII if taken alone though even Fang and Vanille didn't die but turned to crystal and we know characters can be restored from that.

Now that's not to say that side character deaths can't be impactful. I often see a lot of complaints that only side characters die in XIV and we weren't connected to them so it's meaningless. I personally have always remembered the deaths of Josef and General Leo, even if they are side characters and I find plenty of the XIV deaths impactful because I truly liked those people.

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They were pretty prominent characters, considering they even got their own side story of the game about them i’d regard them as main characters. Shadow imo still counts as most people aren’t going to keep him alive unless they look it up. Reks is a pretty main character considering he’s the person that one of the main characters’ story revolves around. 13-2 was what i was getting at mainly. And off there’s 15, type 0 etc etc. Point is it’s almost a staple for their to be prominent consequences at the very least for the main party, and all of that was missing in Endwalker.

Zidane's plot armor was justifiable because we spent the entire game with him as an active protagonist with a distinct personality, just as flawed as it was endearing, and one that would be impossible to make the star of a video game by today's moral standards. The same cannot be said for Y'shtola and the few and far between sassy moments she has or the fact that Thancred's story finished in Shadowbringers and is hanging out as the party appendix these days.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Many ff games have main character deaths though, i’m not sure why this is often stated not to be the case. Ff2,4,5,6,7,10,12,13 to name a few

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All this death talk, I like the way tales of berseria ends. Velvet embracing her brother in a endless cycle of life and death, then sealing herself and him away while locked togather. A sacrifice for her and a display of mercy to her brother.

Um yshtola brings the sas plain and simple. Pretty much all her speeches i can think of never disappointed. From her belittling the leader of the tribes in the steps in stormblood to sending my toon to bed without dinner in shadowbringers and cant be certain but pretty sure she was gonna put me down like a rabit dog too but thats yshtola so im fine with that :). Point being she like all the other scions have had some pretty memorable moments. I for the most part felt that the more personal cutscenes in the storytelling were the best part from the get together in the room and the guest to your room. But i guess to each their own for what a person likes.

Y'shtola insulting Magnai felt out of character to me given her insistence on respecting the culture and customs of the aggressive Beast Tribes back in the days of ARR. Though the Scions venturing into territory that is not theirs to claim and acting as if they own the place and know what is best is, sadly, nothing new.

For all the screeching and drooling they indulged in over Garlean conscription they sure did overlook Hien effectively tricking the Xaela into fighting a war that did not concern them. Then again, the protagonists in this game have never had any fixed moral compass or stable 'themes' I suppose...

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They were pretty prominent characters, considering they even got their own side story of the game about them i’d regard them as main characters. Shadow imo still counts as most people aren’t going to keep him alive unless they look it up. Reks is a pretty main character considering he’s the person that one of the main characters’ story revolves around. 13-2 was what i was getting at mainly. And off there’s 15, type 0 etc etc. Point is it’s almost a staple for their to be prominent consequences at the very least for the main party, and all of that was missing in Endwalker.

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C'mon Reks? You're gonna split hairs like that? He's playable for the prologue, a tiny portion of the game. And you mention Reks and his effect but not Rasler? The only difference there in character motivation is one is playable and the other is not.

You can't really take 13-2 and what happens there if you don't also take LR and what happens there and all...that...gets sorted out in the end with the new world. I enjoyed 13-2 as a game but I try not to think about that whole narrative too much.

Plus people complain all the time about Haurchefant and how he wasn't important enough but he offered us friendship and sanctuary when the world turned against us. He was a huge part of our motivation, but I've definitely see people complain they didn't feel connected to him or he wasn't an important enough death. Or characters like Papalymo who was a main character but people don't think he was important enough when he was an actual Scion and VERY relevant to the story of anyone that started in Gridania.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Zidane's plot armor was justifiable because we spent the entire game with him as an active protagonist with a distinct personality, just as flawed as it was endearing, and one that would be impossible to make the star of a video game by today's moral standards. The same cannot be said for Y'shtola and the few and far between sassy moments she has or the fact that Thancred's story finished in Shadowbringers and is hanging out as the party appendix these days.

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See I disagree. They're just as active with distinct personalities to me so their plot armor is justified. So it seems you only have a problem with ridiculous plot armor when you don't agree with it.

Sometimes the characters surviving over dying could be as simple as because the CEO or boardroom people said to keep them alive for merchandise reasons. I could fully believe that some of the cast was written to die and that some supervisor was like, "but that would hurt our merchandise sales". Sometimes, the situation for story weirdness is as simple as that. The companies are always willing to make the story janky if it makes them more money in other departments. I think we sometimes forgot that businesses such as SE will do this. Products don't usually sell as well if the character is dead. Just how marketing works.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Zidane's plot armor was justifiable because we spent the entire game with him as an active protagonist with a distinct personality, just as flawed as it was endearing, and one that would be impossible to make the star of a video game by today's moral standards. The same cannot be said for Y'shtola and the few and far between sassy moments she has or the fact that Thancred's story finished in Shadowbringers and is hanging out as the party appendix these days.

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I see Thancred leaving us at some point. If they found a way to travel to the first again safely. No question Thancred would likely jump on the chance. There are other characters who are good fighters and infiltrators that could take his place.

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Originally Posted by Remish

Sometimes the characters surviving over dying could be as simple as because the CEO or boardroom people said to keep them alive for merchandise reasons. I could fully believe that some of the cast was written to die and that some supervisor was like, "but that would hurt our merchandise sales". Sometimes, the situation for story weirdness is as simple as that. The companies are always willing to make the story janky if it makes them more money in other departments. I think we sometimes forgot that businesses such as SE will do this. Products don't usually sell as well if the character is dead. Just how marketing works.

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All the Emet-Selch merch that sold on Etsy after his seemingly permanent demise in Shadowbringers directly contradicts this. People straight up have paintings of the guy hanging in their houses. SE refusing to do any merch of him during last expansion was a hilariously bad decision as they could have easily made loads of money before and after his role in the events of Endwalker. As for all the Y'shtola merch the best way to solve that problem is to simply design a better postergirl.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

See I disagree. They're just as active with distinct personalities to me so their plot armor is justified. So it seems you only have a problem with ridiculous plot armor when you don't agree with it.

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Zidane = actively displayed a flirtatious personality with Garnet, bickered often with Steiner, had a lot of endearing moments with Vivi and was actually entertaining to watch interact. Had his world shattered upon revealing his true origins and made us feel sad at FFIX's ending when he stayed behind, with his return in the finale being cheered on by people because he had actually done something to earn it.

The Scions = *stoic nodding* *generic sassy Y'shtola comment* *Alphinaud rambling about his ideas* *uwu G'raha fanservice* *Urianger=I totally promise not to lie to you guys anymore!* and "This is Thancred" being his most impactful line in all of Endwalker

Forgive me if I do not see the two as equivalent.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

C'mon Reks? You're gonna split hairs like that? He's playable for the prologue, a tiny portion of the game. And you mention Reks and his effect but not Rasler? The only difference there in character motivation is one is playable and the other is not.

You can't really take 13-2 and what happens there if you don't also take LR and what happens there and all...that...gets sorted out in the end with the new world. I enjoyed 13-2 as a game but I try not to think about that whole narrative too much.

Plus people complain all the time about Haurchefant and how he wasn't important enough but he offered us friendship and sanctuary when the world turned against us. He was a huge part of our motivation, but I've definitely see people complain they didn't feel connected to him or he wasn't an important enough death. Or characters like Papalymo who was a main character but people don't think he was important enough when he was an actual Scion and VERY relevant to the story of anyone that started in Gridania.

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I mean we can count rasler, i don’t mind that. Either way you’re arguing semantics here. Point is, many ff games have death or some severe consequences. More than those that do not that’s for sure.Even the ones that may not have death at least have severe consequences for the world or it’s characters, that’s the point i’m getting at. In 14 however, the past two expansions have been the ones with the highest stakes and cataclysmic events yet are the ones with the least to no amount of consequences or death. Overall point is, in the ff games with deaths, those games typically had said deaths be meaningful and equate to stronger development in some way. I don’t see why 14 can’t do the same. Most peoples defense is you don’t need death to drive a story forward, which while that may be true, you can’t drive a story’s darker moments or themes forward without a form of consequence, and that’s what has been severely lacking these past expansions. Just like too much death isn’t good for a story, neither is plot armor or massive plot holes created just to keep characters alive.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

See another take I disagree with is that the main cast had to die for the story to be interesting or impactful. Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed any of the deaths in that spoiler tag at all, and losing those characters in those ways more than likely would have tanked my own enjoyment of the story.

Death isn't the be all end all negative consequence and I don't think it's at all necessary to tell a good story. I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think Endwalker was spectacular or anything, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. But then I also don't mind a cheesy cliche if it's entertaining, and for me the UT story was.

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Fair.
Death doesn't, but let's be honest here. That this large group of persons are able to withstand the most dangerous battles and wars, powerful entities/gods, a .0000000001% survival chance where aether supposedly does not exist, etc.
We're bordering on immortals here haha

Even Goku gotta die uh multiple times ya know but the dragon balls actually has lore as to why people can be reincarnated so yee

edit: i also did like ut and cried there, but my cheap comment is more of an after analysis rather than in the moment

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Y'shtola insulting Magnai felt out of character to me given her insistence on respecting the culture and customs of the aggressive Beast Tribes back in the days of ARR. Though the Scions venturing into territory that is not theirs to claim and acting as if they own the place and know what is best is, sadly, nothing new.

For all the screeching and drooling they indulged in over Garlean conscription they sure did overlook Hien effectively tricking the Xaela into fighting a war that did not concern them. Then again, the protagonists in this game have never had any fixed moral compass or stable 'themes' I suppose...

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That's one of the many things that made Hien an interesting character for me: he was willing to go for morally questionable methods and not just that, he was able to sell it in a way that nobody thought less of him for doing it. He didn't side with the Mol out of kindness of his heart or anything, it was all calculated so he (or the WoL) could take a clear leader position and make sure the tribes fight in a war not their own. As cute as it was seeing him chase sheeps, it was also just a tool to acquire information that he could use against the tribes he's planning to enlist.
Also, flooding Doma Castle, drowing most of the soldiers their so they die a gruesome death and are out of his hair? Not honorable considering the trio are all warriors that would want to die on the battlefield if they have to.
He had an honorable side, a boyish side but he also definitely had a very cold, calculating side and the mix of it made it interesting.
Why force people into doing something when you can charm them into doing it?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The bit about the character conflict can't be over-stated, IMO. Some of the most fun encounters I had in older RPGs, like Baldur's Gate 2, was trying to manage the NPC disagreements, which would sometimes result in them fighting to the death or taking your leave of the party. These aren't the only ways to resolve such conflicts, and it's obviously not feasible to the same extent in an MMO like this one, but it helped highlight the strength of their convictions and differences in these. The closest they came in FF14 is indeed Estinien and Ysayle and, although he never joined the party, Emet-Selch following your party around on the First. This helped show more facets of the characters and thus avoided reducing them to mere sounding boards for certain viewpoints.

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The party dynamic in BG2 (and similiar games like Divinity series) made them really memorable when it came to characters. Even if both characters were generally good, like Jaheira and Anomen... oh boy, could they argue. It wasn't just harmless banter, it was a very real conflict over how to solve certain quests and which approach to take with something and their personalities and ideals clashed ina very believable way.
Just because the Scions are not real party members shouldn't exclude them from having real conflicts. They're still people and not some picture perfect good guys on moral high ground. Scion or not, everyone has personal bonds, affiliations and priorities. It's just not believable that they woke up one morning years ago and said "Yup, world peace above all, no personal goals from me!".

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

That's one of the many things that made Hien an interesting character for me: he was willing to go for morally questionable methods and not just that, he was able to sell it in a way that nobody thought less of him for doing it. He didn't side with the Mol out of kindness of his heart or anything, it was all calculated so he (or the WoL) could take a clear leader position and make sure the tribes fight in a war not their own. As cute as it was seeing him chase sheeps, it was also just a tool to acquire information that he could use against the tribes he's planning to enlist.
Also, flooding Doma Castle, drowing most of the soldiers their so they die a gruesome death and are out of his hair? Not honorable considering the trio are all warriors that would want to die on the battlefield if they have to.
He had an honorable side, a boyish side but he also definitely had a very cold, calculating side and the mix of it made it interesting.
Why force people into doing something when you can charm them into doing it?

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Yeah, he's my favourite of the surviving leader figures in the game for those reasons. He feels flawed and properly fleshed out. He isn't perfect, nor does he pretend to be - but ultimately everything he does is for the benefit of his people first and foremost. I liked Varis for the same reasons. The Archbishop of Ishgard, too, albeit not to the same extent.

I want more characters like Hien who have their own agenda and aren't constantly at risk of being forced to change to suit the misguided ideals of Alphinaud. MMO's by their very nature are designed to appeal to a broad variety of players. It's well past time that the characters themselves reflected that when it comes to their opinions, ideals and personalities.

I am fiercely opposed to the idea that everybody has to think, feel and act a certain way be it in reality or a fictional setting. Conflict is both necessary and interesting but the game needs to cease pretending as if only one particular set of ideals are of value or acceptable. That isn't the case. Sometimes people align with one another due to shared goals. Sometimes they come in conflict with one another over their ideals. Though the game's insistence of, at every turn, pretending as if everybody has to concede and do things the way that the Scions desire is growing pretty tiresome. Certainly, if given the choice to give my character more agency he wouldn't be enforcing regime changes and would instead be eager to find a third path forward in almost every situation.

In the end, everybody does what they think is best and there is no universal "best" or even "good".
The quote "Everybody is a hero in their own story" is true. Varis thought he was doing what was best. Thordan thought he was doing what was best. The city leaders. The Scions. Sharlayan scholars.
Everyone can only act to the best of their own knowledge and belief and from their perspective, their actions were understandable and good according to their own priorities and goals. Were they good? Good according to whom? The Scions are not good according to several factions but the story bends over backwards to always make them look good and their ideals as superior and that makes them incredibly bland.
The whole story around Ysayle, Estinien and the Dragonsong War made what we did, as the WoL, questionable because we were just as guilty of killing people under false assumptions as everyone around us and we helped to shake the foundation of a whole nation in too short of a time, leading to even more conflict and deaths. We weren't liked and worshipped by everyone and that was good.
Artoirel basically wanted us dead at first for stealing his spotlight. Not excplicitely but hoping the WoL would fail when sending them out into a battle alone has a pretty clear outcome: you fail in a battle, you die. Tataru and Alphinaud were accused of heresy for sniffing around and it was quite clear that someone else asking the same questions wouldn't have been treated the same way but they were outsiders and unbelievers.
HW was riddled with the type of conflict between characters and in the story itself that made it a very compelling expansion for me and all that without the constant presence of the Scions.
I would've loved to see more of that.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Winning post

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I agree with every word you typed.

10/10

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Imo I don't mind Gra'ha so much.
But I also didn't like how the game treated him as if I as the player thought he was the best thing ever.

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This is how I feel about Haurchefant. The WoL has never reacted as dramatically to anything else in the game as his death. Not trying to say he wasn't a good character or that wasn't an emotional moment, but it's always been odd to me that my character was disproportionately torn up about him. There were also several dialog options referencing him that no other character has had and his demise keeps being rehashed, indefinitely it seems. I feel like my WoL had a love affair with him off screen that I wasn't aware about or something. :P

I love G'raha though. I sympathize with the people who don't, I would hate to have a character I disliked thrust upon me the way G'raha is. It's too bad the game doesn't have a favor system or at least allow you to pick your traveling companions, although, I know that would involve a lot of extra dialog (like the inn scene in EW).

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Reminds me of when people tried to sell me Zenos as a mirror or foil to the WoL, to me he's just a boring psycho. Villains like him and Hermes need to not resurface again.

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Ever since someone compared Zenos to Vegeta from DBZ I've been thinking, darn, he had possibilities! I would love a Vegeta type in game even if it's not him.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I think people will hate any main cast. Even the new 7.0 main cast will be hated. It's a battle that no TV show, movie, video game or story will ever win. It's simply the way it is.

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The Golden Girls. :P Interestingly, it's because they were all so different and played well off of each other, something the Scions don't have. They've always been friends, always get along, always agree with each other (what few differences they have don't amount to much). The fact that they're all Archons or from Sharlayan like the twins doesn't help either, aside from who they were before then there's not even much diversity in their backgrounds. The main cast needs some spice.

As stated by others, another factor that contributes towards the general boring nature of the scions is that every one of them save Estinien come from the same place, Sharlayan. An entire party of allegedly "learned scholars" who in stark contrast to the other Sharlayans we meet in the MSQ hardly come into any kind of conflict with each other at all. Compared to most other party compositions, the one we've been stuck with is extremely homogenous.

The twins, nerds who just graduated high school/university. Y'shtola, sassy nerd. Urianger, bullied nerd. G'raha Tia, uwu nerd. Though some are orphans, they largely seem to be unaffected and straight up don't care about the fact they have no families.

Meanwhile, on the other hand we have:

Estinien - revenge driven soldier who lost everything because of Nidhogg
Ysayle - heretic driven by faith and is unafraid to challenge her ideological enemies
Hien - a prince who lost his family and his kingdom, and leads the charge to retake it, with an army whose acquisition he single-handedly orchestrated himself
Ryne - locked in a cell most of her life, a damsel in distress who becomes her own person by her story's end
Hades - a grouch who despite his naysaying cares about the wellbeing of his inner circle
Aymeric - the bastard son of the head of state, who unlike a certain catgirl is actually capable of displaying traits such as humility! Imagine that.
Hades - his background is the most interesting of them all, a genuinely complex character who is consumed by his burning ambitions who made the most of every second he was on screen.

Compared to these characters, the scions have suffered practically nothing.