Genuine Scholar feedback

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Originally Posted by rewd

You said "strongest heal" and Panhaima objectively isn't that.

You can keep moving the goalposts and set arbitrary conditions if you will, but I'll leave you have all the fun with it.

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It’s the strongest heal because of how it functions not purely because of its throughput. Raw singular throughput hasn’t mattered since Astrologian got Star. Anything that heals more than it functions specifically in that niche of successive damage intake or regeneration. However, neither Star nor Lilybell nor Seraph function exactly the way Panhaima specifically does. The combination of it healing more than Star does in total on top of how it goes about it that is the exact reason it should be nerfed. And I don’t think it needs to be by a lot. Range is one of the few things that makes heals ‘bad’ in this game. Panhaima is functionally infinite range after application. Very few heals of any sort have that trait. It’s the only one that does while beating Star if it doesn’t get popped at all. Twice over if it does the entire way. I think that warrants a nerf to its throughput.

Name a situation where you don’t want it or can’t use it that doesn’t specifically involve trying to avoid self-stacking it. It’s the strongest heal because it’s powerful on two axis, versatility and throughput. That’s why it needs a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

It’s the strongest heal because of how it functions not purely because of its throughput. Raw singular throughput hasn’t mattered since Astrologian got Star. Anything that heals more than it functions specifically in that niche of successive damage intake or regeneration. However, neither Star nor Lilybell nor Seraph function exactly the way Panhaima specifically does. The combination of it healing more than Star does in total on top of how it goes about it that is the exact reason it should be nerfed. And I don’t think it needs to be by a lot. Range is one of the few things that makes heals ‘bad’ in this game. Panhaima is functionally infinite range after application. Very few heals of any sort have that trait. It’s the only one that does while beating Star if it doesn’t get popped at all. Twice over if it does the entire way. I think that warrants a nerf to its throughput.

Name a situation where you don’t want it or can’t use it that doesn’t specifically involve trying to avoid self-stacking it. It’s the strongest heal because it’s powerful on two axis, versatility and throughput. That’s why it needs a nerf.

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You are just saying random stuff now and contradicting yourself.

First you say Panhaima is the "strongest heal". In English, this means that it has the highest potency. Panhaima doesn't have that.
Then you say "strongest cooldown", which is more appropriate but also debatable. Asylum heals more than Collective Unconscious, so it's the strongest heal of the two, but whether it is the better cooldown is up for debate.

Once Liturgy of the Bell is mentioned, you start setting arbritary conditions so that Panhaima can fit your definition of OP.

Panhaima is a strong skill (it's a level 80 skill, why shouldn't it be strong?) but it is definitely not an OP skill that needs a nerf. The vast majority of the time you are using it in a suboptimal way as a mediocre 200p AoE shield that comes with a 500p burst heal. Pretty nice, definitely not OP. It's a buff, so once you apply it the party members' positions don't matter. Yet, it is still a buff that you need to apply, and said application has a 15y radius which means that you definitely can miss people.

To compare it with Liturgy of the Bell - which was only mentioned because you wrongly talked about "strongest heal": Liturgy is at its best a 2000p heal, as its worst a 1000p heal. You can place it anywhere you want and it heals in a 20y radius, which means you will virtually hit everyone every time. If you think that Panhaima needs a nerf because it's versatile and powerful, Liturgy needs a nerf too for the same reasons.

There is no reason not to use Panhaima, as you are always getting something out of it because of the way the skill is designed. This is true for many skills, including Liturgy of the Bell.

Nothing you said makes people go "Mhm, yes, Panhaima definitely needs a nerf".

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

As for Scholar, Soil and Excog have their upsides versus Kerachole/Taurochole

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If we had a hypothetical talent system where you picked between these abilities, I can't ever see a world where the optimal play would be to choose Soil and Excog over Kerachole/Taurochole.

Don't get me wrong, Soil is incredibly strong. But all the benefits on a 15y radius that no one has to stand in is simply better.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If we had a hypothetical talent system where you picked between these abilities, I can't ever see a world where the optimal play would be to choose Soil and Excog over Kerachole/Taurochole.

Don't get me wrong, Soil is incredibly strong. But all the benefits on a 15y radius that no one has to stand in is simply better.

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I can understand Kerachole and Soil, but I don't know why you keep comparing Taurochole and Excog (because they are different enough) and most importantly why you think Taurochole is not only superior but pretty much always better.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If we had a hypothetical talent system where you picked between these abilities, I can't ever see a world where the optimal play would be to choose Soil and Excog over Kerachole/Taurochole.

Don't get me wrong, Soil is incredibly strong. But all the benefits on a 15y radius that no one has to stand in is simply better.

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Soil 100p stronger & has another benefit that allows people who somehow missed the first application tick for whatever reason to step into the dome to receive the remaining buff. Additional minus point if people hate ground targeting button, I guess. In Kerachole’s case if you miss, you miss it for good. I agree with you that 15y is delicious though.

Excog & Tauro isn’t really comparable imho, however similarly created they are.

Excogitation can be used to delete upcoming damage intake while letting its cooldown rolling after initial application. In addition to this, it synergies with Recitation; it can be forced to critical. These two qualities are not present on Taurochole. The only way we can waste an Excogitation is to slap it onto player that constantly on 100% HP.

Taurochole works in parallel. But to not waste the upfront 700p heal, the target has to not be at 100% health. It’s easier to waste a Taurochole than to waste an Excogitation. The only time I can think of when Tauro is better than Excog is during massive wall pulls where tanks are generally hemorrhaging. The damage mitigated by Tauro would’ve definitely surpassed even the critical healing Excog.

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Originally Posted by rewd

and most importantly why you think Taurochole is not only superior but pretty much always better.

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Not always better, but overall. I'm not stating that as fact either but it's my impression and I found it interesting to open discussion on.

I compare Tauro because it's the 45s single target oGCD that costs 1 resource. Excog has +100 potency, which is maybe 2k+ health worth, but Tauro's 15 sec of mitigation will soak more than that just in boss autos. 15 sec is a nice duration. But I'll admit it's not a massive plus, you could argue for either.

Soil's initial tick is a very fair point I missed. Still 15y is just nutty and random players seem to hate standing in ground heals. I'd almost always want Kera in my kit if I had the choice.

It's not that I think SCH heals are "bad" at all. They're really strong. But I'd wonder if SCH deserves slightly better oGCD's than it has in exchange for the restrictions its kit has. That was my main point, not a Tauro vs Excog argument.

As a scholar main in 4.x and 6.x, please do not remove energy drain. This skill adds a niche gameplay aspect that none of the other healers have. Being a healer who focuses on healing efficiency rather than brainless healing usage is a nice change of pace.

As someone that swapped from AST main in ShB to SCH main now in EW I can say my only gripe with sch is energy drain costing aetherflow, make it another charged based ogcd or something that gives mana and it's fine. I do hope they fix my astro cards and astrodyne to feel less horrible to play and I can pick up my fave job again though :(

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

As a scholar main in 4.x and 6.x, please do not remove energy drain. This skill adds a niche gameplay aspect that none of the other healers have. Being a healer who focuses on healing efficiency rather than brainless healing usage is a nice change of pace.

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Genuine question on this.

It's almost universally agreed here that WHM lilies should be dps neutral, that we should be encouraged to use them to heal. It's extremely rare I've seen anyone say they prefer the 85 potency loss.

However, Energy Drain is functionally the same. By existing it means, similar to Lilies each Aether Heal is a similar potency loss. You could argue that the potency loss on Lilies is also a niche gameplay aspect that makes you think about when to use them, but most people just think it feels bad to use them.

So what makes Energy Drain different? Because I've seen a large number of SCH mains who cling to this ability and love it, while over on WHM we're begging for heal tax to be thrown out the window. Just curious.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Genuine question on this.

It's almost universally agreed here that WHM lilies should be dps neutral, that we should be encouraged to use them to heal. It's extremely rare I've seen anyone say they prefer the 85 potency loss.

However, Energy Drain is functionally the same. By existing it means, similar to Lilies each Aether Heal is a similar potency loss. You could argue that the potency loss on Lilies is also a niche gameplay aspect that makes you think about when to use them, but most people just think it feels bad to use them.

So what makes Energy Drain different? Because I've seen a large number of SCH mains who cling to this ability and love it, while over on WHM we're begging for heal tax to be thrown out the window. Just curious.

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If I had to hazard a guess, it's because the cost doesn't "feel" as present unless you're aware of it. Opportunity costs are a hard beast for the people to wrangle; if you use Indom your first lizard brain reaction is "yay I healed someone". If you use a lily, you think "yay I healed someone". But when Misery comes up, now you're face-to-face with the result of using three lilies and it feels like a deflated balloon when you do cursory math on it. Scholar's gauge doesn't build up to a big damage hit, so there isn't a specific standout moment where you're put directly in front of that opportunity cost.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

But when Misery comes up, now you're face-to-face with the result of using three lilies and it feels like a deflated balloon when you do cursory math on it.

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Only if you're concerned about your personal DPS to the exclusion of all else. As a healer, you spend resources healing because you expect that the party's overall DPS will be better for it in the long run. The alternative is letting people tank the floor, which is a far greater loss to the party than the measly 85 potency you personally "lost" because you didn't cast four Glares instead.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Only if you're concerned about your personal DPS to the exclusion of all else. As a healer, you spend resources healing because you expect that the party's overall DPS will be better for it in the long run. The alternative is letting people tank the floor, which is a far greater loss to the party than the measly 85 potency you personally "lost" because you didn't cast four Glares instead.

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When your class's only unique contribution to the party is your personal DPS, the fact that your job gauge is horribly designed to reduce your ability to provide that thing is even more ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Only if you're concerned about your personal DPS to the exclusion of all else. As a healer, you spend resources healing because you expect that the party's overall DPS will be better for it in the long run. The alternative is letting people tank the floor, which is a far greater loss to the party than the measly 85 potency you personally "lost" because you didn't cast four Glares instead.

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And We have two healers who can do both. Healing party without sacraficing DPS. AST is out-DPS'ing WHM right now because WHM is undertuned as hell.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

So what makes Energy Drain different? Because I've seen a large number of SCH mains who cling to this ability and love it, while over on WHM we're begging for heal tax to be thrown out the window. Just curious.

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It's more fun to me than lilies. ED gives me the option of damage or healing up front, and SCH's kit also gives a lot of options that you can generally use before having to dip into Aetherflow (your faerie and recitation) so it doesn't feel as bad to me, along with the fact that I tend to save my stacks for needed healing in newer content until I can burn it with ED because Aetherflow is about to be off CD. ED also contributes to Fey Union healing, so it doesn't feel like a total loss of healing to use it on DPS because it's "refunded" in some way.

Granted, I completely agree that with AST and SGE being able to heal freely, this ends up being punishing to SCH for no benefit, and ED feels worse to use at 100 potency than when it was 150 potency before 5.4. Obviously, if they want Scholar to be using Aetherflow on heals more than damage, they should change the content to reflect the fact that there's basically nothing you need to use all 3 stacks on healing every 60 seconds when you've got Recitation and your Faerie to also cover your healing needs. It's amazing that they're blind to the fact that the root problem of Energy Drain is that healing is typically unnecessary, so if they want Scholar to heal more, they need to make it necessary. So instead, we're at a place where removing ED makes SCH have 0 oGCD dps options, gives it 0 ability to manage Aetherflow and the Faerie Gauge outside of spamming lustrate, and removes any sort of optimization left within the job (because it's only ST DPS options would be Biolysis and Broil IV with Ruin II always being a loss now) however slight that may be. Removing it from Aetherflow and putting it on charges would just turn it into a Phlegma clone, and remove what little "depth" Aetherflow vestigially has left.

Why not change ED into Shadowflare? This would keep an offensive way to dump stacks for SCH, and if it's on a 15s duration 30s CD, this makes 1 Aetherflow always available for a "free heal" every 60s, as it would be impossible to use it all on DPS before Aetherflow was available again. It would give Scholar a 2nd AoE option to use, as they're the only healer with a singular AoE DPS ability at the moment while retaining the ability to dump stacks for damage, while also not being so restrictive on only using Indom/Excog with Recitation during optimization anymore.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

I find it funny that during 5.0 players begged for ED to come back while in 6.0 players can't stand seeing it.
I for one am still waiting for a proper overhaul of Scholars gauges. Make me care about the Fey gauge again.

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Remove Aetherflow from SCH, make Fey gauge what you spend for the oGCDs that used AF. Make Seraph a permanent upgrade to the fairy, Fey Union having the fairy get a healing buff and focus target a single party member for X seconds, turn Dissipation into the gauge dump ability that does...something.

Chiming in to the OP back on the first page, what I can say about Energy Drain is that SCH resources in general need to be looked at. How they are acquired and spent. The skills tied to their resources, etc. It's difficult for me to see ED as a problem by itself, when it really is just part of SCH's overall janky gameplay.

Right now, I use ED because there is nothing else for me to spend my resources on while Soil and Excog are on CD. It most certainly isn't for damage as another healer with just a couple of lucky crits will easily beat that out. It's still free damage though. This in itself is an outdated concept because SCH has an ability [aetherflow] which takes up real-estate on their hotbar, and adds to their APM that gives them three charges that could be redesigned into a resource they earn instead. Better yet, put Aetherflow on a 120s CD that grants them three quick charges to this resource they otherwise earn. Again I will point out how outdated this job is, despite being a functioning car that just won't break down, and will still keep going even after newer models end up in the heap.

Most jobs have to be mindful if they have charges and may not have the luxury to use them leisurely. SCH doesn't even have that. Blowing your charges has a two fold benefit that should appease both healer camps because this forces the SCH to dip further into their kits if healing is needed. Some SCH's might advise to hold onto at least one charge in case someone needs a quick lustrate, but yeah... no. Not if you want to avoid whack-a-mole healing while playing SCH. Others will tell me it is more optimal to favor using a charge of aetherflow instead of a GCD to top up someone, and they are not wrong at all. But the incorrigible black sheep in me will always resort to using emergency tactics along with adlo to get a player out of crit HP if I feel active regens and their own sustainability won't do the trick.

Ah SCH. FFXIV's relic job. Y'all know this job will get reworked, right? And when it does, it will receive what seems to be commonly perceived as the 'style over substance' treatment. When this happens, this toolshed of a job will lose this aforementioned gameplay.

What really bothers me on SCH, as well as the rest of the Healers, is that they all have "a little bit of everything" without actual flaws in design. All of them have potent raw AoE Healing, HoTs, Shielding, Mitigation, Heal modifiers and so on. What they really lack, is personality. We dont have SCH, WHM, AST and Sadge, we just have Healer A, B, C and D thats it.

But back to SCH, what i really would like to see on SCH in terms of Gameplay, is that it has powerful, but few Healing abilities, and most of them, having a really short Range. Im talking about Midare Setsugekka kind of Range.

As for the Skills imagine it kind of like this:

Your only Healing Abilities will be Adlo, Sacred Soil, Physick (with Esuna effect), Fey Link, Ressurect. Thats it. the rest of your Skills, will be Skills that influence those few on a rather frequent, but limited use (like having up to 3 charges but like 30-45 seconds recharge time). the few existing skills will, alongside with the rather short range, have really powerful potencies, like 1200 or more. Physick could also be something like a channeling Skill (like the one you sometimes see in cutscenes when a Healer NPC heals a injured one from closeup, like Alphinaud) that channels for like up to 5seconds and grows in potency with every second.

Anything else in terms of Support that does not involve influencing your own Abilities, comes from Eos, while Selene gets a Toolkit that supports Dps Abilities. Both Fairies however, should have one Skill in common, which allows casting one Healing (Eos) or DPS spell (selene) from their position, as well as allow them being targetable by Skills such as deployment tactics.

The Idea behind this, allows more room not only for more Dps Abilities, but also support based ones.
It would also be great, if we could get improved and maybe even multiple Res Skills which work different for each Healer. Like having a Res Skill that can res someone with Full HP/MP the moment he dies during its duration, but at the cost of it having a really really long CD, like 5-10 Minutes, or a AoE Res Skill with the Same CD (not on the same Healer ofc).

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Ah SCH. FFXIV's relic job. Y'all know this job will get reworked, right? And when it does, it will receive what seems to be commonly perceived as the 'style over substance' treatment. When this happens, this toolshed of a job will lose this aforementioned gameplay.

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Oh please. The fact they doubled down on ShB healer design means that no healer is getting a rework any time soon. The Devs don't want to touch healers because, despite how absolutely mind numbingly boring healers currently are, the fact is they believe that healers are perfectly fine. They don't know what to do with healers and have said as much already so at this point, SCH will forever be stuck with its jank outdated mechanics until either SE gets someone to actually work on healers or the servers shut down.

SCH is fine.

It can be better but I would rather remove and consolidate their actions than outright rework their systems. Their systems finally work to a tolerable degree. The problem is player perception and kit bloat. I will happily trade in potential damage for additional comfort and enjoy finding ways to shave heals I thought were necessary with Energy Drain. What’s not fine is Deployment Tactics, Protraction, and the sheer number of buttons the Fairy takes up while providing minimal support. Even expedient feels redundant, and it’s not a bad skill. We just don’t need it.

I’d much rather take measures to make Dissipation and Seraph more interesting than outright remove them too. I can see how they could be universally positive with some forethought put into them. It’s just not worth their current bloat. But they’re far from the only bloat.

When the hell are you getting to use ED? I'm still progging P2S and if I don't use them on heals people die.

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Originally Posted by Imora

When the hell are you getting to use ED? I'm still progging P2S and if I don't use them on heals people die.

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Taking a glance at your recent P1s kill, you're not utilizing your free oGCD's enough. For example there, you're missing 3 Dissipations and 4 Aetherflow casts, which is a lot of Aether heals and/or Energy Drains lost. You also didn't use Recitation, which is essentially a free Indom that always crits, Expedient: which is 10% mitigation, Protraction: which is free tank upkeep and you missed a lot of Seraph usage which means losing Consolation casts.

By utilizing those oGCD's more, you'll have far more Aether to heal with, cutting down the need to use Succor too and giving more freedom to use ED. It's also a matter of practice and learning and mapping the fight.

It also depends on your co-heal too. A good Sage or AST can heal the bulk of P1S and P2S without needing any GCD heals so you're barely needed for more than Broil and supplementary heals. A bad co-heal will end up putting you to a lot more work.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Only if you're concerned about your personal DPS to the exclusion of all else. As a healer, you spend resources healing because you expect that the party's overall DPS will be better for it in the long run. The alternative is letting people tank the floor, which is a far greater loss to the party than the measly 85 potency you personally "lost" because you didn't cast four Glares instead.

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In savage, healing is basically worthless. The "mistakes" you can fix with healing or shielding are basically zero, since most mistakes will either involve a one-shot mechanic or an outright wipe.

Sometimes, someone will step in the bad right before a mechanic and you'll essentially have a split second to throw an oGCD heal at them before it resolves and the next immediate raid-wide hit kills them.
They may survive but they'll get heavily punished for it with damage down.

So even in the cases where you can "save" someone, the person hit and the healer that "saved" them both got punished after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

SCH is fine.

It can be better but I would rather remove and consolidate their actions than outright rework their systems. Their systems finally work to a tolerable degree. The problem is player perception and kit bloat. I will happily trade in potential damage for additional comfort and enjoy finding ways to shave heals I thought were necessary with Energy Drain. What’s not fine is Deployment Tactics, Protraction, and the sheer number of buttons the Fairy takes up while providing minimal support. Even expedient feels redundant, and it’s not a bad skill. We just don’t need it.

I’d much rather take measures to make Dissipation and Seraph more interesting than outright remove them too. I can see how they could be universally positive with some forethought put into them. It’s just not worth their current bloat. But they’re far from the only bloat.

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Seraph I'm on board for, but I've been wanting Dissipation to get sacked since the day it was introduced. Sure, it functions now unlike when it was originally added to the game, but it has never felt good to use and continues to present itself as a blatant contradiction of sacrificing your healing to get more healing. It just doesn't make sense. Fey Union too I'd like to see removed or changed drastically. At best, SCH's identity of sacking your healing for more healing is buying a $10 bill for $5, and at worst it's buying a $5 bill for $10.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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That feeling I stopped agreeing with once I started pressing Dissipation consistently to get a feel for it. If we still were in Stormblood where we had to resummon the fairy after I might agree with you still because that was annoying in practice and shown to be almost mathematically not worth it (still did it back then in dungeons because QA was a mechanic). I haven't since Shadowbringers, where I was more annoyed at clipping Energy Drains than anything Dissipation did directly. And I think anyone who says it feels bad doesn't really get how it works, developers included.

Since Endwalker I've viewed Dissipation as a straight up DPS cooldown rather than a healing one, though it has use in emergencies, I agree it isn't practical to use it in that manner most of the time. To me a simple duration nerf to 15-20s instead of the 30s it is at now and changing the healing spell potency increase to a generic Spell Potency increase sets more appropriate expectations out of its use, while also removing enough of the downside to actually clean up the problems people have with it. Most times I ever encounter frustration with the skill anymore come from it taking far too long to give the fairy back when I am trying to make use of it mid-fight, even when I've planned for it, and those mostly come down to the duration it lasts. That last 5-10s is all that really should go. The only reason to make it shorter than that is to lower the DPS gain that making it generic spell potency represents. The Fey Gauge shouldn't rely on the fairy being out either but wouldn't change much without first giving the Fey Gauge more use.

The only other reason I want to merge it with Seraph is because you frankly will never run into a situation where you want to use both back to back. They're already mutually exclusive so it's a free button. There's very little downside to merging them as long as we do something about Consolation (like put it on Fey Blessing), put Dissipation first (having access to it in the opener gives you more control over both in the actual encounter than Seraph first), and give them charges (so 60 or 90s CD, alternate between both, grant the cooldown change and charges when you unlock Seraph so Dissipation doesn't wind up in the same spot Bahamut did on Summoner), which allows you to use both to a better degree of flexibility than now as not only does it still allow for back to back use of both but it lets you adjust Dissipation AND Seraph into specific windows losslessly if that's what you're after. It's an extra affordance that I consider reasonable to again shave a potential disadvantage of using the skill, even though I don't think it's necessary beyond killing button bloat, which is a greater problem with Scholar's kit than 'healing taxes'.

Energy Drain and Dissipation's respective places in Scholar's kit gives you a tangible reason to care about how you optimize your healing and DPS in the first place. Frankly, I think Sage and Astrologian should play by the same rules, with cards getting healing/mitigation alternatives while we shave off bad cooldowns from its kit, while Sage gets a second pass on Toxikon and Phlegma (Maybe if you have full Addersgall the bar begins to charge up Addersting and Toxikon refunds MP on use, while Phlegma gets a slight cooldown refund if you use an Addersgall heal). They're stylistically different ways of achieving the same goal of "Make Healer DPS interesting" as far as I'm concerned. I'm more okay with tradeoffs because they signal to players "Hey, care about this!" way better than straight up refunds do, which is where your feel-bad moment comes from. And they're a better balancing lever against gearing, as they allow for additional power to the casual and progression meta where it's needed while giving the speedkill players something to actively shave and juggle based on your composition, which again tells the design team 'Hey we don't need this much healing in X context' which helps them tune them better in the long run. And they're less clunky to implement in most cases as it's often just adding a choice based on manipulating a resource tied to a subset of your kit. Dissipation just happens to be a pet cooldown and that's why it sucked for as long as it did.

It's pretty clear to see that it adds the kind of gameplay I actively want to see more of in healers. It's like playing a black deck from Magic the Gathering in an MMO for me. Only the last life point matters. Here's a powerful ability, but you have to play with its drawbacks if you want to get the most out of it. It simply looks like it sucks until you learn how to use it and see the rewards pan out. I want it to be good rather than 'eh, fine', and it really doesn't take much to get it there from where it is now if you've been using it. That's how little the flaws matter.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

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If our ST Nuke being the most used GCD ability and us actively trying to avoid GCD healing didnt tell the devs we want more DPS options rather than healing options, what makes you think that giving more healers trade off mechanics will do that? The devs don't care and you ask for changes that make jobs clunkier to play simply because you yourself find enjoyment in it.

I personally cant stand playing scholar for the things you tout as enjoyable game design. And it's not because i don't understand it, i do and thats why i don't like it. Having a "addersgall charge changes to addersting" charge mechanic would be worthless at best and disincentive using your primary healing source at worst. These conflicting priorities are what makes players hate the Scholar job rather than draw people to it. Meanwhile the devs couldnt care less about people using intended healing abilities as DPS abilities.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

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SCH is just a jank class that people have attempted to salvage as best they could and claim its all intentionally like that because of reasons. If that was even remotely true, the Devs wouldn't have constantly tried to remove ED in the 1st place and when that failed, they nerfed the skill to be as pitiful as it is today to try and disincentive its usage in ShB only to go about in EW making the healer cast time changes that once again encourages its usage as a DPS gain since SCH no longer needs Ruin 2 for mobility weaving as often as before. Healer Design as a whole is riddled with so many half baked changes that it's really clear that the Devs have no clue what to do with Healers.

People are also so quick to say that SCH needs ED as an Aetherflow dump but really, it's 100% not needed. It pads SCH's DPS and allows for SCH not to need to overheal to get rid of stacks for when Aetherflow is off CD but realistically, that's just because the class is designed so poorly that it needs those things. If extra stacks of Aetherflow could be converted into an alternative resource that would benefit the SCH in another way, then that issue wouldn't exist and both Dissipation and Energy Drain could be changed or removed without issue.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

SCH is just a jank class that people have attempted to salvage as best they could and claim its all intentionally like that because of reasons.

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Honestly, that's how I feel too. SCH's a mess and it feels like SCH gameplay is largely about trying to mitigate the inherent downsides, restrictions and poor design in order to try and make it perform well. Then many SCH players claim doing so is "engagement and skill". It's sort of like when WHM was clip-mage last expansion, you had that small crowd of players who would argue to the death that it was good design, more fun and a skill based class because you had to plan movement. Meanwhile BLM existed as a perfect example of engaging gameplay where you planned movement. But no, mandatory Assize clips, blowing heals to move and limping around the arena were "fine".

There are better ways to design engaging gameplay than heal taxes, poor AI and half your toolkit vanishing because you pressed an oGCD. These just aren't necessary components of good class design.

Make Dissipation a union of the character and the summoned faerie: healing potency increases, Aetherflow is gained, and faerie abilities would still be usable, except their spread will be dependent on our position for the duration. Perhaps it sounds a little too OP coupled with the healing potency increase - but then again, it's not like that increase affects OGCDs, right? Dunno...

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Honestly, that's how I feel too. SCH's a mess and it feels like SCH gameplay is largely about trying to mitigate the inherent downsides, restrictions and poor design in order to try and make it perform well. Then many SCH players claim doing so is "engagement and skill". It's sort of like when WHM was clip-mage last expansion, you had that small crowd of players who would argue to the death that it was good design, more fun and a skill based class because you had to plan movement. Meanwhile BLM existed as a perfect example of engaging gameplay where you planned movement. But no, mandatory Assize clips, blowing heals to move and limping around the arena were "fine".

There are better ways to design engaging gameplay than heal taxes, poor AI and half your toolkit vanishing because you pressed an oGCD. These just aren't necessary components of good class design.

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Clip Mage and Energy Drain are not the same thing. One of those is a QoL gap the other is an option. I’m fine saying SCH has poor design elements, but most aren’t exactly unique to them. The primary one is the fairy sucks. Even pre-ShB pet interactions are pathetic relative to what Sage can do and they are loved by people. Frankly, most of the fairy actions just play off of her working from a centerpoint independent of the player, which is actually valuable, sure, but they aren’t impactful. And I’m not expecting that to change. I’d rather make her subsystem (Fey Gauge) matter more in general and scrap Seraph entirely if Seraph wasn’t trying to do a shoddy Panhaima impression.

Really I think the burnout from not getting proper attention across the whole role has just blinded people to what made these elements fun in the first place. To me it reads like we’re shooting ourselves in the foot. I’m not okay with trusting the developers with coming up with an alternative given what they’ve done to all classes from Stormblood onward either.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Energy Drain and Dissipation's respective places in Scholar's kit gives you a tangible reason to care about how you optimize your healing and DPS in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I’m not okay with trusting the developers with coming up with an alternative given what they’ve done to all classes from Stormblood onward either.

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While I definitely agree with the second quote - it's the reason I don't want to see ED removed solely because I don't trust that they would replace it with anything better (I'm fairly certain they just wouldn't replace it at all and SCH would have its 1 DoT 1 Nuke) I'm not really sure how much it gives you a reason to care about optimizing healing, rather than just making your cohealer AST or SGE do it because they don't lose DPS for the things you do. Dissipation especially just functions as an "okay, I can't heal at all now outside of GCDs and Recitation if that's up, cohealer adjust" button, which seems to be what it felt like the developers were trying to move away from. Given the changes to ED to be even more spammable and now a 100 potency gain over the 10 in ShB, I really have 0 clue what exactly the design decision is for Scholar at the moment. (outside of them not even considering this at all, which I think is likely the case considering the state of Lilies on WHM too.)

Back in ShB, Ruin II and Energy Drain were the two most important buttons in Scholar's entire kit, because they allowed Scholar to both move and utilize free healing from the fairy, on top of being a slight potency gain. Throughout the entirety of ShB, ED usage was not on the level of a potency gain that it is now even pre-nerf. But what optimization do they offer now? With 1.5s cast times, you just never want to hit Ruin II, at all. Its 'optimization' is no longer as a movement/healing tool, its optimization is just never using this button. How is that fun? Same with Energy Drain, with it's 1s recast time changes and it being more of a potency gain, the 'optimization' is just "dump your ED during every 60s buff window for the maximum DPS." Sure, you can hold Aetherflow until it's close to being off CD and then dump it then, but that's not really being optimal with it even if you are getting DPS out of it.

If SCH needs an Aetherflow dump, why not make it a GCD DPS neutral button for both a dump and a movement tool? Just have Ruin II be able to dump Aetherflow at 295 potency when you have it and then stay at 220 when you don't. That frees up a button, or two if Dissipation is removed because like you said, it's just really a DPS tool at this point. This also should allow Aetherflow to be used outside of combat again, since it'd no longer be tied to DPS at all, and should IMO also lead to button bloat heals like Fey Blessing being removed and put into something like another charge of Indom to make up for it. Consolidating SCH's healing kit bloat can only begin once we start looking at how SCH is using its healing kit and what its priorities are; and as long as Aetherflow's priority is always DPS, SCH will keep getting shoved full of superfluous heals that are meant to work around the fact that you want to use Lustrate/Indom/Excog and Soil as little as possible.

I dunno. I see the merits of ED and I like it because it's unique and no other healer has the choice that Scholar does, but I also see the arguments for why it's bad for the job in the era of two healers being able to heal entirely free. Personally, if the removal of Energy Drain and Aetherflow as a DPS gain were to facilitate SCH getting a more fun DPS rotation, I'd be all for that. I'd rather have more things to manage in the form of DoTs or debuffs than the current system of spamming ED 3 times immediately every 60s with no thought on how I'm using it.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Whole lotta words

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Dissipation will always be bad because:

1) First and foremost the increased healing only affects 3 buttons on our hotbar. THREE. Two of those you rarely ever use.

2) Even if you did think of it as a DPS cooldown, you are gaining a single broil every 2 3 minutes while losing out on passive fairy regen, and all it's abilities. Not to mention the plethora of healing you could be doing instead.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Dissipation will always be bad because:

1) First and foremost the increased healing only affects 3 buttons on our hotbar. THREE. Two of those you rarely ever use.

2) Even if you did think of it as a DPS cooldown, you are gaining a single broil every 2 minutes while losing out on passive fairy regen, and all it's abilities. Not to mention the plethora of healing you could be doing instead.

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I mean. Dissipation keeps you from accessing your heals only on paper. In practice, you use dissipation when those are either already on CD or you don't need them. And these opportunities are sufficient enough.
So ultimately point 2) is kinda moot. It's not a synergy problem, it's just a tool that needs planning (as it probably should).

But yeah I agree with the other stuff. The tuning is completely off both on the healing bonus and the ED dps component. But that's really SCH in a nutshell right now.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Even if you did think of it as a DPS cooldown, you are gaining a single broil every 2 minutes

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Three minutes, actually.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d4/70/54/d...2ff89cdfc5.jpg

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Three minutes, actually.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d4/70/54/d...2ff89cdfc5.jpg

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3 minutes. 3 buttons.