Lore Forum Decorum - Just What is Meant by Good/Bad Faith?

I don't recall a similar morality issue in ShB or any of the other expansions. They didn't rejoin the First and then spend the rest of the expansion throwing every excuse and the kitchen sink at the player as to why it was the best thing that could've happened.

It's certainly odd because in the Discord communities I'm in there's certainly not the rampant toxicity that's described. Some arguments get heated, sure, but said servers tend to have rules for a reason and those get enforced, and even then it's expected the arguments to be in good faith. I don't even use reddit and only open Twitter once or twice a day since I only use it to follow my favorite XIV creators (and Neil Gaiman). The spaces one frequents, I guess...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I know I'm spectacularly unpopular, so all I can really say is that it's never my intention to upset or offend anyone. (It can happen; I blame catboy RBF.)

Aside from FC chat, I don't discuss FFXIV anywhere else, because Lore used to be the accept-no-substitutes best. It was hard to come back after a brief hiatus to find it consumed in the negativity and vitriol I came here to escape, but in spite of myself, I'm also not quite ready to give up on it yet.

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And that's a shame because I remember finding out a few months ago that our favorite catboy was in 2 West End productions of some of my favorite musicals and thought "Wonder if Fenral knows about it?", and alas there was no Fenral. Certainly a "If I had a nickle for every time Jonathan Bailey has played a character named Jamie in a West End Musical, I'd have... 2 nickles. Which is not a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice." moment

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Shadowbringers recieved nothing but glowing praise (more or less) because the narrative was far more tightly written and had far less plot holes and inconsistencies. Like the worst plot hole I can think of would be G'raha coming in at the end of 5.0 and despite being shot, beaten, exhausted, and far from the Crystal Tower, enacting a summoning spell for seven people that he barely managed to complete for WoL when we were helping him on our end. And this is very egregious, but people let it slide because it was part of possibly the best sequence in the entire game. Endwalker's issues are more widespread by comparison and affect much more than a single moment.

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It's much easier to have less plot holes and inconsistencies when you're placing the the story entirely in a separate world and kinda have it doing its own thing. They were pretty much working with a blank slate. The Ascian plot is probably the only thing that affects the game world as a whole and it's the first time they really delved into it as the plans of the Ascians were extremely vague before that

Personally, I think Endwalker did a wonderful job tying lots of things together and giving them a satisfying end for such a long ending series.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's much easier to have less plot holes and inconsistencies when you're placing the the story entirely in a separate world and kinda have it doing its own thing. They were pretty much working with a blank slate. The Ascian plot is probably the only thing that affects the game world as a whole and it's the first time they really delved into it as the plans of the Ascians were extremely vague before that

Personally, I think Endwalker did a wonderful job tying lots of things together and giving them a satisfying end for such a long ending series.

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It wasn’t really a blank slate, in fact i’d say it was more challenging as they had to try and fit the overarching story into this new world without it feeling shoved in. They did a pretty good job at that and didn’t make it feel too contrived. They even kind of saved themselves from the whole time travel issue but getting rid of said time travel device. Endwalker you can very easily tell, was just destroyed by them changing the end date from 7.0 to 6.0 and we aren’t even going to have any patches to explain all of the unanswered questions since they stated 6.1+ would be entirely new stuff. For people who have been around since even 1.0 and are avid lore enthusiasts it was kind of a slap in the face for all of these built up lore points only to be either completely ignored,dropped altogether, or given such an anticlimactic end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yep this exactly. Endwalker just has widespread flaws in comparison to shadowbringers and i think that added on to the fact it’s supposed to be effectively THE ending of this years long arc whilst also being delayed 6-7 months just puts more salt in the wound for people who found it fairly mediocre.

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The only flaw I saw dealt with Zenos and him being an "experiment" never being brought up or dealt with. Something I hope is delved into this expansion with some of the patches.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

For the record I don't use Twitter or Reddit, and the only thing I use Discord for is playing Dungeons & Dragons, precisely because I know a lot of online communities are toxic (or quickly and easily become so) and want no part of that negativity.

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Seconded. Even just browsing Twitter or Reddit for an hour is enough to turn my blue plumage black. And sadly, my current active D&D game is on hiatus.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

And that's a shame because I remember finding out a few months ago that our favorite catboy was in 2 West End productions of some of my favorite musicals and thought "Wonder if Fenral knows about it?", and alas there was no Fenral. Certainly a "If I had a nickle for every time Jonathan Bailey has played a character named Jamie in a West End Musical, I'd have... 2 nickles. Which is not a lot but it's weird that it's happened twice." moment

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That sounds like an unfortunate thing to have missed. Fortunately, I play with JP voices and instead have a nickel for every time Yuuma Uchida has played an insecure red-headed catboy who doesn't deserve to be loved. (Surprisingly, also two nickels.)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That sounds like an unfortunate thing to have missed. Fortunately, I play with JP voices and instead have a nickel for every time Yuuma Uchida has played an insecure red-headed catboy who doesn't deserve to be loved. (Surprisingly, also two nickels.)

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Which isn't a lot, but it's strange that it has happened twice now, huh?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The only flaw I saw dealt with Zenos and him being an "experiment" never being brought up or dealt with. Something I hope is delved into this expansion with some of the patches.

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The hydaelyn and zodiark arc is finished though. Everything 6.1+ is entirely new things according to the devs besides the pandaemonium raids and i highly doubt we’re going to get zenos in those. One flaw i can think of off the top of my head is the whole body snatch arc literally amounting to nothing. All that terror and dread amounted to zilch. Not to mention the horrible pacing issues.

I do agree that by forcing two expansion length stories into one, SE induced alot of weirdness that spilled out onto the forums (also, please stop with the speeches every five minutes please). However, I feel this divide reaches back to ShB and the factions created in support or opposition to certain characters.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The hydaelyn and zodiark arc is finished though. Everything 6.1+ is entirely new things according to the devs besides the pandaemonium raids and i highly doubt we’re going to get zenos in those. One flaw i can think of off the top of my head is the whole body snatch arc literally amounting to nothing. All that terror and dread amounted to zilch. Not to mention the horrible pacing issues.

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I'm not so sure. It felt like something there hinting at what they could do to us later in MSQ. Imagine if we entered a new land, and somebody steals our body by throwing out our soul with some form of magic (similar to the Soul Extraction device), forcing us to have to use a body nearby. Any NPCs from Eorzea would instantly know it's not us in our body, but the locals would not know that. We could have an entire zone story (we'd be glamoured in the mean time) and instance without us in our body, and then get it back at the end of the zone, the locals convinced that we caused everything. It'd make for some good storytelling and give us a foe who would be difficult to fight simply because they could body hop like any Ascian, and not even the Blessing (if it is still there) could protect us. At the same time it could expand on what we were able to do in that instance where we weren't in our own body.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm not so sure. It felt like something there hinting at what they could do to us later in MSQ. Imagine if we entered a new land, and somebody steals our body by throwing out our soul with some form of magic (similar to the Soul Extraction device), forcing us to have to use a body nearby. Any NPCs from Eorzea would instantly know it's not us in our body, but the locals would not know that. We could have an entire zone story (we'd be glamoured in the mean time) and instance without us in our body, and then get it back at the end of the zone, the locals convinced that we caused everything. It'd make for some good storytelling and give us a foe who would be difficult to fight simply because they could body hop like any Ascian, and not even the Blessing (if it is still there) could protect us. At the same time it could expand on what we were able to do in that instance where we weren't in our own body.

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Coulda woulda shoulda. That’s all i’ve been hearing since ShB. That this could happen in the future etc etc. It doesn’t change the fact that as of right now, in this expansion, it meant nothing. It did nothing. It accomplished nothing. It was a waste of time, time that could’ve been spent elsewhere to explain the many things people feel haven’t been answered either well or at all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Coulda woulda shoulda. That’s all i’ve been hearing since ShB. That this could happen in the future etc etc. It doesn’t change the fact that as of right now, in this expansion, it meant nothing. It did nothing. It accomplished nothing. It was a waste of time, time that could’ve been spent elsewhere to explain the many things people feel haven’t been answered either well or at all.

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It meant the WoL and the player learned just how much more powerful they are compared to everybody else. It accomplished not only a sense of urgency, it also showed that if the WoL was outside of their body for long enough they could make any body as strong as their own, as seen by the end where despite being on death's door you ran and threw a sword through a Voidsent Avatar. Something that should not have been possible considering you were able to die in that body, yet made it move through force of will alone, which also heavily hinted at Dynamis considering such a thing would not have been possible with just aether.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It meant the WoL and the player learned just how much more powerful they are compared to everybody else. It accomplished not only a sense of urgency, it also showed that if the WoL was outside of their body for long enough they could make any body as strong as their own, as seen by the end where despite being on death's door you ran and threw a sword through a Voidsent Avatar. Something that should not have been possible considering you were able to die in that body, yet made it move through force of will alone, which also heavily hinted at Dynamis considering such a thing would not have been possible with just aether.

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A sense of urgency which was completely falsified since nothing actually happened, and that’s a reoccurring problem with 14. They give us these false stakes, with the constant death flags thrown around for characters but then they turn out okay in the end. Completely undermines the severity of certain situations when only minor npcs or the antagonists are the ones to suffer.

Ah, yes. The third part of the triumverate: "people need to die for reals or I can't stay engaged." This is a proper Lore thread now.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Ah, yes. The third part of the triumverate: "people need to die for reals or I can't stay engaged." This is a proper Lore thread now.

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Nah it ain’t a proper lore thread until someone hits on Graha :p

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Nah it ain’t a proper lore thread until someone hits on Graha :p

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But isn't that an unspoken rule? XD

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Ah, yes. The third part of the triumverate: "people need to die for reals or I can't stay engaged." This is a proper Lore thread now.

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The entire narrative hinges on the idea that sundered people are better at dealing with despair and loss, and then we magically return everybody to life at the end. It's not exactly thematically fulfilling.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Ah, yes. The third part of the triumverate: "people need to die for reals or I can't stay engaged." This is a proper Lore thread now.

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It never gets any less amusing when people bring this up as some kind of point, when by far the most milked tragedy in the entire game is Haurchefants death, one that happened 6 years ago.

I'm pretty new to the lore forum, but I've been dying to talk to someone, anyone, about FFXIV since I kinda stopped using social media outside of friend servers on discord lol... so I'm hoping that the things I've said so far haven't added to the problems that people have discussed here.

People are naturally going to have differing opinions on things - sometimes opinions that they are very passionate about - and it's never fun to see people fighting or spitting vitriol at each other for disagreements, that was something that really got to me on twitter and why I just stopped using it altogether for the most part... and already there have been a number of times I've read comments from people on here that I didn't agree with but found interesting, or that I didn't agree with to start with but that ended up changing my mind about things, made me think harder about something, or made me understand something that I didn't before

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Ah, yes. The third part of the triumverate: "people need to die for reals or I can't stay engaged." This is a proper Lore thread now.

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Yep. Probably the part that makes me scratch my head the most. I can understand getting annoyed at constant fake outs, but if you NEED characters to die in order to enjoy the story, it comes off as a wee bit sociopathic. The return of the Scions at the end was set up well before hand with Azem's crystal, so its not like it was just out of left field. The whole of Ultima Thule got me, not because I believed the Scions were gone for good, but because of how each of them were able to face the despair of the various races and show them a better way and how they felt leaving you behind to carry the burden once more.

Then again, the tension for me in a story is about HOW they're going to get out of a situation, not IF they're going to get out of it.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yep. Probably the part that makes me scratch my head the most. I can understand getting annoyed at constant fake outs, but if you NEED characters to die in order to enjoy the story, it comes off as a wee bit sociopathic.

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I think such comments are a rather excellent example of this thread's premise and ties in brilliantly with the points I raised earlier on.

None of the characters in the game are real - they're just pixels on a screen at the end of the day. That doesn't mean people can't have positive, negative or neutral feelings towards them but...it's a video game.

Furthermore, I also think the requests for character deaths are framed deceptively by those seeking to criticise the supposed push. I rarely see anyone pushing for large swathes of characters to be killed off 'just because'. In actuality, it's often suggested that maybe one major death per expansion would help the stakes feel meaningful and leave more room in an already bloated cast for new faces to show up and get involved.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yep. Probably the part that makes me scratch my head the most. I can understand getting annoyed at constant fake outs, but if you NEED characters to die in order to enjoy the story, it comes off as a wee bit sociopathic.

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Truly isn’t a proper lore thread until the self proclaimed psychiatrists join the discussion. Fun times.

Characters don't have to die in order to step aside and make room for new faces. Krile didn't have much screen time in Shadowbringers, we didn't see much of Cid in Endwalker, Lyse hasn't been around much since Stormblood. At no point was it necessary for any of them to die in order for them to step back in the narrative and allow new faces to get involved. (Which Endbringer had plenty of.)

Edit: Also, it's entirely subjective whether or not major character deaths help the stakes feel more meaningful. Personally, I would prefer that they do not die so that more stories can be told about characters that I like.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Characters don't have to die in order to step aside and make room for new faces. Krile didn't have much screen time in Shadowbringers, we didn't see much of Cid in Endwalker, Lyse hasn't been around much since Stormblood. At no point was it necessary for any of them to die in order for them to step back in the narrative and allow new faces to get involved. (Which Endbringer had plenty of.)

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No but there should be a feeling of consequence and stakes depending on how severe a situation is in the story, and i think an apocalypse that once decimated the world would be a perfect time for it. Especially if they’re going to have themes about dealing with loss and despair but then have none of that apply to the main cast and only the opposing factions, or continue to try and milk past deaths but have to keep choosing the same 2-3 characters because no one else has died in 6 years lmao. Why is it only the antagonists that have to suffer? It makes the story feel extremely one sided and stale. Also makes things like the final area scenes feel very hollow since it’s obvious they’re going to come back.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Truly isn’t a proper lore thread until the self proclaimed psychiatrists join the discussion. Fun times.

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Never claimed to be a psychiatrist. I'm not trying to analyze anyone here. So maybe stop putting words in people's mouths?

I'm not against characters dying if done properly (though I'd rather they survive), but Walking Dead style deaths designed for shock value don't do much for me. I feel it's actually the cheapest and laziest way to get reactions out of people. As I mentioned earlier, I got more of a reaction KNOWING the Scions would come back, because I knew what they were sacrificing themselves for, using all their character growth through the expansions to battle the despair that we faced at every turn.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No but there should be a feeling of consequence and stakes depending on how severe a situation is in the story, and i think an apocalypse that once decimated the world would be a perfect time for it. Especially if they’re going to have themes about dealing with loss and despair but then have none of that apply to the main cast and only the opposing factions, or continue to try and milk past deaths but have to keep choosing the same 2-3 characters because no one else has died in 6 years lmao. Why is it only the antagonists that have to suffer? It makes the story feel extremely one sided and stale. Also makes things like the final area scenes feel very hollow since it’s obvious they’re going to come back.

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Again, I think that's entirely subjective whether or not character deaths give a story more meaning and consequence. Personally, I'm more interested in questions like "can the twins reconcile with their father?" than "will the twins survive until the end?" - stuff like that is where I find the meaning and consequence in the story. Also - regarding Ultima Thule, I thought it was explicitly stated at the start that we could bring people back, and the story was never about the risk of the scions being dead, but about the WoL having to face these incredibly difficult situations alone; Alisaie's outburst towards the end of Ultima Thule pretty much confirms that.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Never claimed to be a psychiatrist. I'm not trying to analyze anyone here. So maybe stop putting words in people's mouths?

I'm not against characters dying if done properly (though I'd rather they survive), but Walking Dead style deaths designed for shock value don't do much for me. I feel it's actually the cheapest and laziest way to get reactions out of people. As I mentioned earlier, I got more of a reaction KNOWING the Scions would come back, because I knew what they were sacrificing themselves for, using all their character growth through the expansions to battle the despair that we faced at every turn.

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You’re saying that someone wanting fictional characters(pixels) to die is a wee bit sociopathic. How so? Also i don’t think anyone is asking for walking dead style deaths or purely for shock value. But people want actual stakes in the story. The story gets beyond boring when there’s death flag after death flag and then numerous fakeout deaths. Because it also messed a bit with the story. Remember the whole plot line about Yshtola’s aether slowly sapping away due to using flow? Yeah that’s been completely ignored in favor of keeping her alive. Personally i feel very little for the scions, i feel like i’m nothing but a loaded gun for them, so i’d rather see some of them succumb to the horrors of this apocalypse and make it feel very serious and real than to have them somehow survive due to deus ex machina and plot armor. Also while it was stated we could bring them back if i’m not mistaken yshtola explicitly tells us not too, which makes sense considering it goes against the themes of the game to not deal with loss and instead bring back the dead.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re saying that someone wanting fictional characters(pixels) to die is a wee bit sociopathic. How so? Also i don’t think anyone is asking for walking dead style deaths or purely for shock value. But people want actual stakes in the story. The story gets beyond boring when there’s death flag after death flag and then numerous fakeout deaths. Because it also messed a bit with the story. Remember the whole plot line about Yshtola’s aether slowly sapping away due to using flow? Yeah that’s been completely ignored in favor of keeping her alive. Personally i feel very little for the scions, i feel like i’m nothing but a loaded gun for them, so i’d rather see some of them succumb to the horrors of this apocalypse and make it feel very serious and real than to have them somehow survive due to deus ex machina and plot armor. Also while it was stated we could bring them back if i’m not mistaken yshtola explicitly tells us not too, which makes sense considering it goes against the themes of the game to not deal with loss and instead bring back the dead.

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Yes, they're pixels. I was exaggerating a bit when I said people are sociopathic, however, it does show an empathy difference. They actually did a study on it when it comes to horror films that people who really enjoy them tend to have less empathy than people who don't. It doesn't mean they're killers in real life, they just don't get invested in the characters as much. I'm not sure why you don't like the scions much, because a huge part of the last two expansions was showing just how much you meant as their friend (especially to Alisae and G'raha), but to each his own. I fall into the latte camp of being a pretty empathic person, so I get invested in the characters quite a bit. Do I believe they're real? Of course not. I'm not insane. But I still have an emotional investment in them, which is what any good story should do.

And yes, Y'shtola said to not bring them back-- because doing so would cause the pathways forward to collapse. It was their souls keeping the place going. Once you summon Emet and Hythlodeus and the field of Elpis flowers, you instill some hope back into Meteion herself, so the Scions souls are no longer needed to keep everything together. Emet actually says as much just before you summon them back. It wasn't a deus ex machina, because Venat clearly tells you what the crystal is capable of.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yes, they're pixels. I was exaggerating a bit when I said people are sociopathic, however, it does show an empathy difference. They actually did a study on it when it comes to horror films that people who really enjoy them tend to have less empathy than people who don't. It doesn't mean they're killers in real life, they just don't get invested in the characters as much. I'm not sure why you don't like the scions much, because a huge part of the last two expansions was showing just how much you meant as their friend (especially to Alisae and G'raha), but to each his own. I fall into the latte camp of being a pretty empathic person, so I get invested in the characters quite a bit. Do I believe they're real? Of course not. I'm not insane. But I still have an emotional investment in them, which is what any good story should do.

And yes, Y'shtola said to not bring them back-- because doing so would cause the pathways forward to collapse. It was their souls keeping the place going. Once you summon Emet and Hythlodeus and the field of Elpis flowers, you instill some hope back into Meteion herself, so the Scions souls are no longer needed to keep everything together. Emet actually says as much just before you summon them back. It wasn't a deus ex machina, because Venat clearly tells you what the crystal is capable of.

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It still goes against the themes of the story lol. Loss and fire and faith yet loss is never felt on the protag side, purely the antag side or minor npcs. As far as empathy goes, i’m a very empathetic person irl, so i don’t think we can jump to those conclusions based on films or video games. I feel far more for the antagonist side actually because they lose a loooot more than the protag side ever does because as i mentioned before, the story is very one sided. Horrible things happen to the antags but the protags are kept safe and sound or magically come back to life. It’s very boring and predictable.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It still goes against the themes of the story lol. Loss and fire and faith yet loss is never felt on the protag side, purely the antag side or minor npcs. As far as empathy goes, i’m a very empathetic person irl, so i don’t think we can jump to those conclusions based on films or video games. I feel far more for the antagonist side actually because they lose a loooot more than the protag side ever does because as i mentioned before, the story is very one sided. Horrible things happen to the antags but the protags are kept safe and sound or magically come back to life. It’s very boring and predictable.

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Loss and fire and faith aren't felt by the main cast because they've already felt them. We lost Moenbryda, which hit Urianger. We lost Haurchefant, which hit us and Alphinaud. We lost Papalymo, which hit Y'shtola. We lost Tesleen, which meant nothing for us but meant a lot for Alisaie. We lost Minfilia, which hit Thancred. G'raha lost EVERYONE in the bad future. Everybody felt the fires of war and suffering over the course of their adventures together, and everybody gained faith in each other and the world through them as well. The main cast has already grown to where none of this is needed for them, they've already been forged through the events of the expansions.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It still goes against the themes of the story lol. Loss and fire and faith yet loss is never felt on the protag side, purely the antag side or minor npcs. As far as empathy goes, i’m a very empathetic person irl, so i don’t think we can jump to those conclusions based on films or video games. I feel far more for the antagonist side actually because they lose a loooot more than the protag side ever does because as i mentioned before, the story is very one sided. Horrible things happen to the antags but the protags are kept safe and sound or magically come back to life. It’s very boring and predictable.

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We've lost a LOT through 8 years of this game. Characters we cared about, characters the Scions cared about. To say there was no loss is ignoring the last 3 expacs plus ARR. And if you find the game so boring and predictable, I suggest playing WoW. I hear that story is nothing but twists and turns.

Honestly, I have to ask why so many people who play this game seem to hate the story and more importantly, what did they want out of it? Did they want Meteion to win and destroy everything? Did they want the Ancients to survive and thus get rid of the future we know? Did they want the Garleans to conquer the world and take away everyone's freedom? What exactly did the detractors want to happen?

Characters such as Moenbryda died nearly a decade ago for anyone who has played consistently since the days of ARR. Furthermore, tastes differ and not everybody is going to consider the demise of certain characters to be a 'loss' if they don't particularly care for the individuals in question in the first place.

As for WoW, though it went too far in the opposite direction and eliminated too many major characters in ways that were arguably less than satisfying I have to give it some credit for at least being willing to change who ruled a particular region in order to keep things fresh as the story advanced.

It'd be nice to see more balance where FFXIV is concerned. I wouldn't be upset if someone on the level of Y'shtola or Merlwyb happened to be killed off next time there's a huge, dangerous threat lurking in the background.

Given that MMO's are designed to appeal to a wide range of different tastes, I think FFXIV could easily move between hopeful, low stake stories and darker, more high stake tales. That'd be a good compromise, I reckon.

Character death is such an odd subject for me. I would be the very first person to admit I don’t want it - both because Moenbryda, Haurchefant, and Ysayle all destroyed me, but also (and more importantly for me) because I personally dislike arguments that stories with downer endings or death are inherently more meaningful. Which can, at times, be what arguments for character death sound like - that a story or its stakes would be more meaningful if someone died in the process of the plot.

In FFXIV’s case, though, I start fighting with myself over that, my opinions swinging back and forth like an erratic pendulum.

When it comes to protagonist or ally deaths, pretty much all meaningful or memorable ones are 3.X era or earlier, making it VERY unbalanced. Minfilia is an odd case, but I do think you can count her as functionally dead in 3.X, considering her role thereafter. For an expansion with opening lines about how freedom is bought with the blood of our brothers, SB has one NPC death of an older character on the protagonist side. Tesleen in ShB is memorable, but mostly for the shock value. Minfilia gets Death Part 2 in ShB as well, but it’s more tying up lose ends than it is an actual death.

Meanwhile, I don’t think arguments about fake-out deaths “recently” have a leg to stand on, because the entire bloody banquet is just mass death fake-out. EW also showed terror and despair through both NPC death as well as other means (loss and fire and faith etc etc). This is what I liked about EW - it did not tie itself down to “make people sad through character death,” but let itself explore a couple different ways big and small that people could fall into despair. I also agree with another sentiment in this thread (I think? I’ve been thread jumping for a while) that Ultima Thule never tried to convince us these characters were dead. It was a summation of their character arcs, their answers for what was worth fighting for, and a reminder that even when we are fighting by ourselves, we are never truly alone.

In summation, I guess my general takeaway is less “FFXIV needs more character death” and probably a bit more “they sure went nuts on that at the beginning, huh?” lol

The Scions continuously place themselves in high risk situations involving war and world ending threats, yet don't manage to lose as much as I have in real life just from normal existence. It's not that I lack empathy, it's that from my POV the Scions are incredibly privileged to have experienced as little suffering and despair as they have under any circumstances.

Given the player is the WoL they obviously can't ever lose, but the problem is that anyone who aligns themselves with them has benefited extensively from that shield since HW. It's probably too simplistic to blame it all on lack of deaths, although, if the writers don't want to kill anyone they probably shouldn't be writing war or apocalypse stories. A couple of people have said FFXIV is the tale of "the power of friendship", so I suppose it's on me that I expected something more given the themes.

I have cried my heart out for the Ancients since ShB. I've found their story and their characters far more heartbreaking than anything I've seen from the protagonists. So, yes, I did want to see them with a happy ending (i.e. alternate timeline), rather than their tragedy be rehashed for the same outcome.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yes, they're pixels. I was exaggerating a bit when I said people are sociopathic, however, it does show an empathy difference. They actually did a study on it when it comes to horror films that people who really enjoy them tend to have less empathy than people who don't. It doesn't mean they're killers in real life, they just don't get invested in the characters as much.

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And this is the part where you run into the circular arguments of deeply empathetic people who refuse to consider the other side at all.

For FFXIV to survive as a long-running serial, it's moved into the style of storytelling adopted by mega-hits like One Piece and Berserk, with a stable core cast serving as the eye of the storm in increasingly dire situations. Both series continue to be incredibly popular worldwide, so there's simply no argument to be made that the writing is somehow deficient or risks alienating any significant portion of the fanbase.

Hell, Berserk hasn't killed a named allied character since the 90s! Except Tonio. He was a good man.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

And this is the part where you run into the circular arguments of deeply empathetic people who refuse to consider the other side at all.

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Yes, and then you have those deeply empathetic people who struggle to understand that different people have different storytelling tastes and thus resort to allusions of sociopathy which they swiftly back down from. That sort of "deeply empathetic" person, right?

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Honestly, I have to ask why so many people who play this game seem to hate the story and more importantly, what did they want out of it? Did they want Meteion to win and destroy everything? Did they want the Ancients to survive and thus get rid of the future we know? Did they want the Garleans to conquer the world and take away everyone's freedom? What exactly did the detractors want to happen?

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The fact that so many people are spending time to debate/discuss elements of the story just shows how passionate we are about it. Why is any type of criticism or any opinion that doesn't simply say "the story was amazing" met with replies like "if you hate the story so much why are you playing?" Asking for higher stakes in an end of the world scenario doesn't have to mean everyone dying or having a villain win.

To give you an example: one of the things I loved about Shb was the tension you felt as your character dealt with the light corruption. Of course, as the audience we all knew that we would be ok in the end, but we didn't know how. Sitting there watching my character almost turn into a lightwarden was one of the most edge-of-your-seat moments I've had in this story, and it was so well done! I wanted something like that in EW and I didn't feel that from the final zone at all.

One thing that would've put me at the edge of my seat is having one or more of the scions almost give into despair and seeing them start to turn. Rallying together to encourage them and bring them back from the brink of turning would be a wonderful scene. There are so many ways to bring that tension and I just did not feel that at any point with our character or the Scions. Nobody had to die to give us that tension either.

ETA: **There are so many ways to bring that tension and I just did not feel that at any point with our character or the Scions (except for the body swap part which ended pretty quickly. I wish they would've done more with that).

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Did they want the Ancients to survive and thus get rid of the future we know?

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Hello, brand new to the forums here--please bear with me as I learn to use them. Actually pretty much made my account for the express purpose of replying to this.

Yes--this is exactly what I wanted. My primary interest in the story from day 1, and I've been here for a very long time, has been the Ascians, and I only joke that I've liked them longer than the Garleans because Lahabrea showed up on screen before Gaius did. I have little to no interest in the present-day section of the story, and from a moral sense I regard the Sundering as a bad thing. I was specifically excited headed into EW to see WoL taking up their legacy as Azem and figuring out a way to restore the world that did not involve such harsh methods as the Ascians employed, and instead I'm seeing the story argue that the broken state of the world is just fine, actually! Not a problem with this at all, nothing to see here, go back to your workaday lives in rejection of the idea that society could be better and more highly evolved than it is.

All of the characters I had any interest in at all are dead. I guess I'm going back to being a hardcore raider whose only interest is prog, as I was in WoW before moving to this game in 2013.

I think a huge problem with this section of the forums us that many of us have been around for years. Some since 1.0 like Moose. Some like myself since Beta phase 3 of ARR launch. Yes I know that my current account doesn't have the proper join date. Part of that was due to my old account being tied to another person's who ended getting us both banned for things most posters would let slide. That and some RL stuff that caused me to start from scratch and miss about a year and a half. So there are people who will butt heads regardless because time and again both sides and I include myself in this have proven that they will not see eye to eye or even agree on things. Then there's just posts that come off even if you try to take them in the best light ect come off as though they took a bath in the Bog of Stench but instead of smelling as the deadliest combination of the most foul of dog farts and month old sweaty gym socks it's dripping with the most poisonous vitriol to the point where even if you try to understand the other side or ask what changes to the story that they would want. That they come off as though they wouldn't still be satisfied or have their mind change. And end up with them doing their best impression if Artax standing in the middle of the swamp of sadness. So, yes there are times when it just feels as though we're well entrenched in trench warfare. Especially when it gets to the point where at least one, sometimes both sides are trying to split an already thin hair. I know one should use citations from in game or other sources that we know are written by the dev team to back up our statements, but I also don't think we should have basically write thesis papers covering every granular spec of sand just so someone won't go "Ah, but you left out this miniscule detail so you must be wrong and now I shall be completely ornery about it."

It even feels extremely what in the actual heck when "discussion" starts dismissing the EEs just because they're technically written by someone in universe even though we know they're written by the lore section of the Dev team. Heck when the person who wrote the cookbook had to do multiple back and forths with the Devs so that you can take any of the things mentioned in it as fact it shouldn't be dismissed as something questionable. Unlike the fourth Mass Effect story. Which was written by a person who knew nothing about that game's world and probably is in some purgatory while never getting the promised rewrite that's supposed to fix any and all grievances fans have with it. Also Vyreus you're not as bad as I am.

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Originally Posted by AnEmissary

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Welcome! Always good to see a new old friend. Just a little Ascian joke for you there.

I think it's perfectly understandable to feel frustration when characters that you enjoy are moved out of the focus. Sometimes that means moving on to things you enjoy more. That's a really healthy approach to it.

By the way, that's a fantastic in-game character name. I think one of the posters above you really likes it as well, given their character design up until a couple of days ago. Either way, enjoy your time here!