Animosity with World of warcraft players who still like the game?

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

sorry, no offence, but in my experience this is just plain wrong, many of my XIV friends and random pugs take every opportunity to trash WoW and it's players at every opportunity that presents themselves

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Shhhh FFXIV players are so perfect they can't do this kind of things, it must be those monsters WoW players coming into our game to ruin it !

I'd say its a number of things.

Some of it is ex WoW players that come here and repeatedly post laundry lists of things they say this game "needs" that often have no supporting arguments. They just want this game to be more like WoW.
There is also the recent things with WoW players spam posting threads about some WoW streamer that started playing this game.
There are people salty about connection stability or login queues due to being on a world that had a large number of new players start playing on it at some point that coincided with a period when WoW's player count dropped noticeably.

I just think it's wild anyone cares what games other people play

I mean I personally haven't encountered any issues and I'm not exactly quiet about the fact I used to play WoW, so idk what people are actually saying, but like. Literally who cares lol. It was a HUGE MMO for literal years and had actual millions of players, like I'm more surprised when I encounter someone who's never touched the game at this point

I personally will take shots at the game itself because I do not like the direction Blizz took it, and disagree with a LOT of the choices they made for the game over the last few expansions, but like. If people still like it, it's whatever. It's not my $15 a month : p

Some of my best gaming memories come from playing WoW during Cata. There's nothing wrong with liking the game. I think part of the issue stems from a belief that WoW players are toxic. The WoW community is completely different from the FFXIV community so it's difficult for them to integrate into the game. Think of it as different cultures coming together for a common purpose. There's bound to be growing pains.

That said, you should never have to tolerate toxic people. I hope you are able to find folks in FFXIV that share your enthusiasm for WoW and other MMOs. There's bound to be plenty of them around.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

I've not played WoW (or any other MMO for the record) before, no
I understand what you're saying and I even agree with that, but it's usually not the state of WoW itself the players are harping about, and I should've probably clarified my initial statement to say WoW players instead of WoW itself



sorry, no offence, but in my experience this is just plain wrong, many of my XIV friends and random pugs take every opportunity to trash WoW and it's players at every opportunity that presents themselves

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Sauce for the goose?

SOME WoW players have spent over 15 years trashing EVERY game that wasn't them, salivated at thier downfall, celebrated thier failures, and rubbed thier subscriber numbers in the faces of players who weren't playing WoW.

I came from WoW...even participated in that type of awful behavior in 2007/2008. The community has its reputation for a reason.

I have yet to come across ANY type of targeted behavior like that in this game simply because someone came from any other game much less WoW.

excal's NN, shout/say/yell chat in the various cities, alliance raids? either you're lucky and somehow never see this or maybe you spend most of your time in your house/fc when not doing content? because at one point I saw it several times a week a while ago when doing alliance roulettes
not much more to say aside from that I obviously don't have screenshots of some random players' tirade about WoW or it's players because I'm not a weirdo that screenshots people's conversations lmao
I can tell you that my FC/DC discord is talking about the latest WoW change for the 4th or 5th (maybe 6th already?) time today, though, always the same people bitching, some of them even having never even played WoW before and just hate it because it's what you're supposed to do as a XIV player, at least in their eyes

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

With that being said I've come across multiple instances when mentioning that me liking "All mmos" and that wow is included in that all makes me a "wow player". I'm sure nobody is going to deny that some people hate wow. some hate the players and some take enjoying that game or this game to almost be a political statement.

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I hate the game, not the player. I used to love it because it was a game that offered something for everyone. Now, everything in the game centers around raiding and M+. A handful of weeks into a given patch, every single form of end game progression centers around those. The only reason the patch even lasts that long is because of the artificial time gating. If you like the idea of running the same six dungeons over and over again at a break neck speed until your eyes bleed in order to collect gear for Mythic raiding, I highly recommend the game. If, like me, you find that style of game play boring and elitist, then I highly recommend you avoid it. I'm glad that you're enjoying WoW, but it's definitely not a game I enjoy anymore. Hating you for enjoying it in its current form would be silly, though.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I just want to mention I am in no way a "wow player" any more then I'm a "guild wars player" or a "xiv player" I tend to play any and every mmo that comes out and I enjoy most of them as long as they're not predatory and p2w.

With that being said I've come across multiple instances when mentioning that me liking "All mmos" and that wow is included in that all makes me a "wow player". I'm sure nobody is going to deny that some people hate wow. some hate the players and some take enjoying that game or this game to almost be a political statement.

I've lost friends in this community for simply admitting to enjoying that game or not wanting to take place / enthuse in one of the hate circle jerks that seem to be full of people who cant get that game from being in their minds rent free. I've had people talk to me different because of my 'not negative' outlook towards the game. (Had a friend that ever since he learned I played and enjoyed wow couldn't help but use me as a outlet for ALL his grievances about that game and 'how bad it is and how bad I am for playing it' like a stress punching bag). Now I'm ashamed or just scared to even talk about my history in that game in this games community in fear of being run out again.

Lastly. I'm a believer of the concept that "A person who cares the most about something has the most to complain about it" I have a bunch of stuff I think could be better about this game like many of the other games I care about. but to the people who hear my suggestions and simultaneously know I play and enjoy wow. I'm suddenly the "Angry butt hurt wow player who should just go back to wow if I don't think this game is perfect". Like I could've mentioned I played every other mmo on the sun except wow and my statements would be valid but as long as wow is a game I've played suddenly I'm "that wow player"

I started playing wow 13 years ago because I was a kid and it looked fun. I played it now because it was nostalgic. wow kick started my love for videogames and all mmos as a whole. 12 year old me didn't pick the game up to be a part of some politics war today.

Didn't mean to rant just wanted to get my grievances out there. played xiv since hw so I'm not really a refugee.. but any other refugees been experiencing these issues and this silly "game war" :confused:

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I don't think you were playing with friends. I think you were in a cult and you got lucky they let you go. Imagine being such a fanatic that you bring a hateboner equal to that of the silly xbox vs playstation fandom wars that reached peak back in...'08? I wanna say '08.

Anywho, just remember that in this game, for every ff14 cultist, there's at least 10 people who might raise an eyebrow that you played wow and say nothing and another 10 who will say "ok, and?"

Only time a WoW player even mildly bothers me is when they push for a new game they start playing to 'be more like WoW'. I couldn't care less otherwise what game(s) you've played before or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Only time a WoW player even mildly bothers me is when they push for a new game they start playing to 'be more like WoW'. I couldn't care less otherwise what game(s) you've played before or whatever.

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WoW needs to be more like Wildstar... I enjoyed that game more than WoW... >.>

You can quit WoW but it never quits living in your head

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

WoW needs to be more like Wildstar... I enjoyed that game more than WoW... >.>

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OOoooh bring back wildstar that is the real wow killer ;o;

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

OOoooh bring back wildstar that is the real wow killer ;o;

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Wildstar wasnt a bad little game.

it is a fine example of what happens however... when the devs start listening and changing things based on people in the forums....

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

Wildstar wasnt a bad little game.

it is a fine example of what happens however... when the devs start listening and changing things based on people in the forums....

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Wildstar had one major issue after launch... No updates. The game launched with two half finished zones and throughout it's entire life-span neither of those zones were completed even when the covered 1/3 of two continents.

The game was also quite poorly optimized and apparently even a mess to work with.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Only time a WoW player even mildly bothers me is when they push for a new game they start playing to 'be more like WoW'. I couldn't care less otherwise what game(s) you've played before or whatever.

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Not going to lie, i would have liked to have a few jobs that played closer to a wow spec with shorter gcd and more proc-based rather than the heavy focus on fixed rotations that FFXIV have. Like Dancer would probably have felt significantly better to play if they trimmed a second or more from their GCD.

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Originally Posted by Baalfrog

We got 2 types of players here in ff, the ones who have played wow, and liars.

Jokes aside, tribalism over videogames (and other things relating to it, like gatekeeping etc.) are absolutely ridiculous and it is something that the non-toxic great community btw of ours shines in. Honestly, the influx of players from other games recently has been very good for the community over all though, its been very refreshing. That said, since many of them are former wow players, there has been also an increase in pushback against these refugees, which is also stupid. People can be kinda stupid I guess...

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I’ve never played wow. I’m a console player. Always have been. The one game I played on laptop was ………………. Tera. That was my first mmo. If you don’t want to count IMVU or PSHOME.

My first MMO was Runescape
PK in the wildy

I won't justify the behavior described in the OP...HOWEVER...

For me it was like getting out of a 16 year bad relationship with someone that for a variety of reasons never realized how bad the partner was. In this case the partner being WoW. The sunk cost fallacy after you spend years, money, and phases of your adult life development invested in something for that long, its hard to let go even when youve known for a long time it was bad.

Then to find what feels like a breath of fresh air in this game, to the point that it more than once brings you to tears when you think about how great this one is, how bad that one was...only to hear someone talk about how they still like and participate in the previous game?? It is infuriating. it gives me a feeling of "how dare you like that game." I know that feeling is wrong, and im sorry for it.

Yes, thats stupid of me. No it isn't logical, no it isn't right. But feelings often aren't. I know I am wrong. But it is how I feel. I feel anger towards WoW and myself and everything about it. I know its "just a game" but it was a game where I met and started a family with my IRL partner. Divorced them because of it too. Met and made real life friends and lost them. It was not just a game. It was also a social media outlet, tinder, a chat room, a game and so much more. My Wrath of the Lich King raid team all met in real life. Then to have to watch what that game has become now...

There is a documentary/study someone needs to make on this mass exodus from WoW to XIV this year. Psychologists, sociologists, and historians are missing out if there aren't extensive studies about this.

It does seem to be the pattern that wow has hurt most people who played it. Especially those who are playing this now. I could say now its pretty bad but honestly I might be a little stupid. I went through most of my 14 years playing wow completely un-offended by the changes that took place throughout the years. To this day the only reason why I stopped playing largely is because of how many years I've spend in azeroth. I know everything, I know everywhere. I know most of the quests in each zone. The world became to small for me and it left me wishing I could somehow forget all my years so I could do it again. Then the classic bots and mage boosts kinda killed it. TBC endgame was just logging twice a week to raid. who's gonna pay a sub to play for two days? same reason I'm not really playing this too.

What I want to know is how come it seems that those who played wow, and now those who play xiv are often acting like those are the only mmos in circulation? Like you relate wow as a 16 year bad relationship that took xiv for you to realize and break free from. But why not all the other games that existed in those 16 years? I used to only sub for wow 2 months of the year as a kid who couldn't work- when I got a game card for Christmas and a game card for my birthday. and on that off time I played Mabinogi, Vindictus, maplestory, runescape, gw2, tera, eso. Those are all really good games when they weren't p2w (gw2 is still not) . I'd say they rivalled this one in their time. whats the deal with people being so closed off to the potential of other games? Even now people only consider wow, xiv and new world like they're the only options for a bored, homeless mmo player.

I think wildstar lives on in gw2. Playing both I realize how much stuff wildstar did that gw2 does. (Fates, aoe questing, action combat, mob and player telegraph outside of raids). They were made with the same producers maybe the same studio so it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't justify the behavior described in the OP...HOWEVER...

For me it was like getting out of a 16 year bad relationship with someone that for a variety of reasons never realized how bad the partner was. In this case the partner being WoW. The sunk cost fallacy after you spend years, money, and phases of your adult life development invested in something for that long, its hard to let go even when youve known for a long time it was bad.

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This is largely my take as well. If you're actually actively harassing someone or attacking them because they like and/or still play WoW then you're just being an ass.
However, I do think it's still a valid question to ask Why someone is still playing WoW with everything that's been going on with it and the company for years now, especially if they're still actively supporting the game or Acti-Blizzard. Everyone will have their own reasons of course, but I think it might be healthy to take a step back and question if it's a good thing to be playing a game just because you're used to it or because it's in essence just become a habit. And, yes, this goes for any game, even FF14. While SE has less internal stuff to question, if you've been playing FF14 since 1.0 or even 2.0 non-stop and feel yourself playing it "just because" then taking a step back for that is a good idea too.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

However, I do think it's still a valid question to ask Why someone is still playing WoW with everything that's been going on with it and the company for years now, especially if they're still actively supporting the game or Acti-Blizzard. Everyone will have their own reasons of course.

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I think a lot of people feel they don't have a choice. You hear it from the people who still play. They're miserable half the time- they don't want to play. But onto what I said in the last post if you believe that wow and xiv are your only two options to fix your mmo itch your stuck between only two choices and not everyone is either a xiv player or a wow player at heart. some people simply wont fit comfortably in the alternatives that are available to them. ((Would a hardcore wow pvper find a place in eorzia if they try it and hate the story and community?)) Probably not since this game basically doesn't have pvp. They'd be better off moving off wow to guildwars better pvp but nobody would consider that game as a possibility so they would just stick to being miserable in wow or be miserable trying to force themselves to liking xiv.

personally I had to take an option C. I'm not that entralled by this game myself and with wow being a sinking ship I had to pick a third option rather then sink there or struggle here.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

What I want to know is how come it seems that those who played wow, and now those who play xiv are often acting like those are the only mmos in circulation? Like you relate wow as a 16 year bad relationship that took xiv for you to realize and break free from. But why not all the other games that existed in those 16 years? I used to only sub for wow 2 months of the year as a kid who couldn't work- when I got a game card for Christmas and a game card for my birthday. and on that off time I played Mabinogi, Vindictus, maplestory, runescape, gw2, tera, eso. Those are all really good games when they weren't p2w (gw2 is still not) . I'd say they rivalled this one in their time. whats the deal with people being so closed off to the potential of other games? Even now people only consider wow, xiv and new world like they're the only options for a bored, homeless mmo player.

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Thats easy to answer actually. For me at least, I almost always skipped out on trying new MMO's because, particuarly in the late 2000's it seemed like every new MMO that was the "next big thing" often went free to play, became a meme in the sphere, constantly seen people in the WoW forums say they tried X game but was trash and came back to this one, or X other MMO ended up with little to no updates or even shut down entirely! I remember after 1.0 of XIV, the meme on the WoW forums was "6 months until XIV is free to play!" Thats obviously not the case now, XIV is going to be around a LONG time. There was never a threat of WoW shutting their servers down, even now. Investing years and years into a character, tens of thousands of achievement points and now unobtainable items...The game has to become VERY BAD to get you to take a chance on another MMORPG. And it has become VERY BAD.

A lot of people tend to treat MMORPG's like a temporary single player game for a few months and move on and thats fine for them. I want something that I know ten years from now, I can still be investing into that same character/account and the game won't die. WoW for the most part has died. I don't think a lot of people realize how bad it really is/how different it is from its previous forms. The game is largely unrecognizable. The WoW that yoshi P and his developers played to take inspiration for FFXIV has not existed in years.

I'm a nerd who follows video game stuff every day and Ive never heard of several of those games you listed.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

This is largely my take as well. If you're actually actively harassing someone or attacking them because they like and/or still play WoW then you're just being an ass.
However, I do think it's still a valid question to ask Why someone is still playing WoW with everything that's been going on with it and the company for years now, especially if they're still actively supporting the game or Acti-Blizzard. Everyone will have their own reasons of course, but I think it might be healthy to take a step back and question if it's a good thing to be playing a game just because you're used to it or because it's in essence just become a habit. And, yes, this goes for any game, even FF14. While SE has less internal stuff to question, if you've been playing FF14 since 1.0 or even 2.0 non-stop and feel yourself playing it "just because" then taking a step back for that is a good idea too.

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Yeah, not that you were accusing me of, I know you were not :) But for everyone I will be perfectly clear, I have not and will not harass anyone in game or elsewhere for "still liking WoW". I will however be godsmacked, roll my eyes and breathe heavily at the very least when I hear compliments about how that game is NOW (not how it was). I too have fond memories of it.

Also I will fight to keep certain things out of this game that I see people ask for, that I have personally witness cause toxicity and help lead to the downfall of WoW. ie. mythic dungeons, and PvP content.

If you want XIV to be like WoW, go play WoW.

There was a park I went to as a kid. it was beautiful and clean. Nice place to be. Today that park is full of trash and broken needles. Im not going to pretend that park is still a nice place.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I'm a nerd who follows video game stuff every day and Ive never heard of several of those games you listed.

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That's wild but that's kinda what I meant. Mabinogi, vindictus and maplestory are all IPs from Nexon. If you played one you probably would be exposed to the others. Most people know runescape. gw2 is largely overlooked and everyone thinks its dead. tera was some korean mmo, eso is actually pretty competent but personally cant stick to it as I was never a fan of the elder scrolls. I wouldn't recommend you pick up at least half those games as they are now. But they made up most of my childhood along with wow. Maybe because of those games I never really got in the investment trap wow gives.

I heard about xiv from some random video of some guy reviewing heavensward- he was healing in tam tara and talking about how the game plays like "Old school classic wow" so I just said oh nice and bought it same day lol. Xiv never really enthralled me and To this day I don't really see what he meant by that but I am happy I gave it a shot. I think when you played so many other mmo titles its not easy to be enthralled by any particular games special features. Xiv has never really been "A gift from god" like some people treat it. Its really good don't get me wrong but knowing all those other titles kinda makes it hard for this one to stand up over the rest. but, if you only know wow and xiv I can see why people would prefer this one- even if wow never made the mistakes its been doing. Even if wow was just as good as it was in wotlk- this game would still be a strong contender. Add those other titles into the mix at their best it'd be a lot harder to say which is better.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

That's wild but that's kinda what I meant. Mabinogi, vindictus and maplestory are all IPs from Nexon. If you played one you probably would be exposed to the others. Most people know runescape. gw2 is largely overlooked and everyone thinks its dead. tera was some korean mmo, eso is actually pretty competent but personally cant stick to it as I was never a fan of the elder scrolls. I wouldn't recommend you pick up at least half those games as they are now. But they made up most of my childhood along with wow. Maybe because of those games I never really got in the investment trap wow gives.

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never got much into mabi or maple, but I was into Vindi for a long time until I realized that the version the people in Korea were playing could in no way be the same as the steamy, unoptimized mess I was in NA. "lets not work on performance things like music stuttering, etc but hey! lets add another character..." so I moved on. ESO was.. okay, I did launch and it was a uninspiring mess. it would have to be improved by now.. but the graphics and look turned me right off. gw2, not bad, had some fun bits, enjoyed the classes, tera just... something about it made me say no. Conan was decent for the times

the first mmo I sank a lot of time into was SW Galaxies, which also taught me company loyalty is a dead end street, and I will never play or pay for an SOE offering again lol. WoW was fine when it was a game, once it wandered into being a job.. I submitted my resignation and moved back to fun things and took my money with me lol

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't justify the behavior described in the OP...HOWEVER...

For me it was like getting out of a 16 year bad relationship with someone that for a variety of reasons never realized how bad the partner was. In this case the partner being WoW. The sunk cost fallacy after you spend years, money, and phases of your adult life development invested in something for that long, its hard to let go even when youve known for a long time it was bad.

Then to find what feels like a breath of fresh air in this game, to the point that it more than once brings you to tears when you think about how great this one is, how bad that one was....

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Agreed! It is how i feel too about wow and blizz. just like you said! and guees what? like a bad relationship, blizz wont change, dont expect big changes. Change womans portraits into fruits wont change anything of theyr "frat boy" culture. the problem its not what you see inside the game, but inside frat boys mind. They can cover all characters into a nun outfit, that wont change big boss company mindset. That portrait BS, its clearly calling players stupid! its curious...just cause a company, a person have a salary of billions, they call themselves smarter than others.
"hey I'm rich, I'm smarter than you haha" "no...you just know how make money well, you don't have intelligence to feel empathy with woman's, or feels how your employees stress out".

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

That's wild but that's kinda what I meant. Mabinogi, vindictus and maplestory are all IPs from Nexon. If you played one you probably would be exposed to the others. Most people know runescape. gw2 is largely overlooked and everyone thinks its dead. tera was some korean mmo, eso is actually pretty competent but personally cant stick to it as I was never a fan of the elder scrolls. I wouldn't recommend you pick up at least half those games as they are now. But they made up most of my childhood along with wow. Maybe because of those games I never really got in the investment trap wow gives.

I heard about xiv from some random video of some guy reviewing heavensward- he was healing in tam tara and talking about how the game plays like "Old school classic wow" so I just said oh nice and bought it same day lol. Xiv never really enthralled me and To this day I don't really see what he meant by that but I am happy I gave it a shot. I think when you played so many other mmo titles its not easy to be enthralled by any particular games special features. Xiv has never really been "A gift from god" like some people treat it. Its really good don't get me wrong but knowing all those other titles kinda makes it hard for this one to stand up over the rest. but, if you only know wow and xiv I can see why people would prefer this one- even if wow never made the mistakes its been doing. Even if wow was just as good as it was in wotlk- this game would still be a strong contender. Add those other titles into the mix at their best it'd be a lot harder to say which is better.

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Never really got into MapleStory. Other MMO's I've played over the years are Ultima Online, PSO, PSU, PSO2, FFXI, Grand Fantasia, Ragnarok Online, Pandora Saga, RF Online, WildStar, Dungeon Fighter Online, Eve, Allods, Requiem, Dragon Nest, Elderscrolls Online, Aura Kingdom, Eden Eternal, Dragon Quest X, I know there's more I'm missing but cannot remember the names of. I've played a few other titles that some might consider an MMO but I don't really count them myself like Sea of Thieves and Fallout 76 where it felt more like single player with built in online matchmaking.

I'm always looking for something new. The question is whether or not I stay interested after playing it a bit. Most of them only hold my interest for a couple months at most. The only one's I'd played for over a year would be FFXI, FFXIV, PSO, PSU, PSO2, DQX, WildStar.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I've lost friends in this community for simply admitting to enjoying that game or not wanting to take place / enthuse in one of the hate circle jerks that seem to be full of people who cant get that game from being in their minds rent free.

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Then they weren't really your friend and you are better off without them. Its really as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by AriesDaBeeh

I've lost friends in this community for simply admitting to enjoying that game or not wanting to take place / enthuse in one of the hate circle jerks that seem to be full of people who cant get that game from being in their minds rent free.:

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Wen cross datacenter happens, feel free to contact me if you want play along.

A lot of people in here comparing wow to an abusive relationship. I think you all need to examine why you cling to things you don't enjoy. I have quit wow before, during WoD. There was nothing to do and i wasn't having fun. I've been playing for a loooong time and it wasn't a hard choice to make. That's when i got an account fired up here. Played this until wow looked to be fun again. I found a community there.

Currently, i love playing, i have a great time. I love my friends that i've made there. They make the game fun for me.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

If you want XIV to be like WoW, go play WoW.

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Certainly, I wasn't accusing anyone in particular of anything regarding harassment or anything, it was more of a general "you" so I'm glad you didn't take it that way.

Anyway, the above a really important point to me, and it's also sort of echoed in what Aries is saying too. Every game is different, should be different, and is going to be different. If you come to FF14 and your first comment is "Man, I wish FF14 was like WoW" and that's all you can say then maybe you honestly should stick with WoW. And, yes, if you only look at FF14 and WoW as THE two options then there are going to be elements in which you are going to have to make a choice. As Aries says, if you're a PvP monster than FF14 is not going to satisfy you. Heck, if you're a really hardcore raider who needs tons of hardcore bosses and lots of iterative challenge focused content, FF14 is probably not going to satisfy you either. There were some people who keep asking day in and day out for harder low man content in FF14 even though the devs have repeatedly said they're not really interested in expanding on it in 14. There are some people who's entire interest in 14 tanked just because the next Ultimate was delayed. Etc. As I said in my earlier post, people who may still be playing (and hopefully enjoying) WoW may have their reasons.

WoW is what it is, and that's unlikely to change in fundamental ways. FF14 is what it is too, and that's also unlikely to change in fundamental ways either. Many of the interviews from the recent Media Tour touched upon topics relating to this and it's pretty obvious YoshiP is not looking to make FF14 into, for example, a hardcore raider's paradise and is instead comfortable with it being an experience that offers things for everyone even if those things are at times limited because of the game's reach. If that's not what you want in FF14 then you should probably take a step back and see if you can find what you want elsewhere. It's no different from WoW in that respect (again, talking purely about the actual gameplay elements and not the questionable internal issues).

So yeah, echoing Aries, there's a number of other MMO options out there for everyone. And, perhaps scariest to some, there's also the option of just not playing an MMO at all. If what you want in an MMO doesn't exist these days then maybe it would be best to just not play an MMO at all. We all know that even more casual player oriented MMOs like FF14 still require some level of maintenance and upkeep; some level of needing to stay attached/connected. And if this game, or that game, is making you feel like you need to stay connected to something you're not enjoying, then you'd probably be better off cutting the cord at least temporarily and viewing things from a fresher perspective.

The problem with WoW is that there is no generally game play improvement in prospect. No CM s anymore, no communication between players and development. Youtubers quit WoW or just talk about the bad news because what else is left to talk about Wow.
There still quit a lot more players, we will see al lot more wow refugees when Endwalker is up.

There is no animosity against WoW, the game is just not good anymore.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

The problem with WoW is that there is no generally game play improvement in prospect. No CM s anymore, no communication between players and development. Youtubers quit WoW or just talk about the bad news because what else is left to talk about Wow.
There still quit a lot more players, we will see al lot more wow refugees when Endwalker is up.

There is no animosity against WoW, the game is just not good anymore.

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Actually the recent bit of hot water they're in has made them much more receptive to feedback.

Hate aoe caps? Gone!
Want more customization? Done!
Wanna freely swap covenants? Done!
Hate conduit energy and just wanna swap conduits as much as your heart desires? Done!

Among other things.

They're basically doing everything they should have done with the expansion launch now. It's coming late but the players appreciate it. Developers of all games do this thing where they have a vision for how they want things to work and are stubbornly resistant to any feedback. That's not unique to wow at all, but it's frustrating for us as the players. BFA was the epitome of developer hubris, they didn't listen when people told them how bad azerite armor was as a concept, they didn't listen when players said how bad the corruption mechanic was. These two systems made the gear progression for the entire expansion frustrating and awkward.

Now if you want the ultimate example of developer hubris that isn't wow, see Wildstar. Oh wait, you can't, because it died.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Now if you want the ultimate example of developer hubris that isn't wow, see Wildstar. Oh wait, you can't, because it died.

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Wildstars problem was that they listened to a subset on the forums, I am sure they made them very happy.

unlike WoW however, Wildstar didnt have the population of diehard leet players to make up for people leaving. hopefully WoW still does....

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Originally Posted by Averax

BFA was the epitome of developer hubris, they didn't listen when people told them how bad azerite armor was as a concept, they didn't listen when players said how bad the corruption mechanic was. These two systems made the gear progression for the entire expansion frustrating and awkward.

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Don't forget the good old Benthic and Essences system! /vomit

I think Corruption was fun because they just gave up on balancing it. Sure, other specs would obviously handle them even better, but for example Shadow Priest could become insanely and funnily bursty. Of course they had to screw up acquiring them, even after the fix which was clearly designed to chain people into subscriptions just to progress.

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Originally Posted by Averax

A lot of people in here comparing wow to an abusive relationship. I think you all need to examine why you cling to things you don't enjoy.

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People still cling to WoW (or variations of WoW like private servers) because there is no other game on the market that offers the same things WoW does. The timeless artstyle that looks fantastic regardless of how powerful your machine is. The very strong class, racial, and faction identity. The PvP. The only game that lets you really look like a monstrous, inhuman beastman (rather than playing as a human wearing a rubber mask, like a Khajit or a Hrothgar). The instantaneous, responsive gameplay where you click something and it just works. The elaborate boss fight design. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

Wildstars problem was that they listened to a subset on the forums, I am sure they made them very happy.

unlike WoW however, Wildstar didnt have the population of diehard leet players to make up for people leaving. hopefully WoW still does....

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I don't think everyone still playing WoW is a diehard. I know plenty of casuals who still play (not as much anymore due to how grindy the systems have become) and I've recommended FFXIV to them, and some of them tried FFXIV out, but they still stick with WoW because it's what they love and there isn't really any other game that fits their tastes. FFXIV doesn't excel at - or even have - the thing I mentioned above that makes WoW unique.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Actually the recent bit of hot water they're in has made them much more receptive to feedback.

Hate aoe caps? Gone!
Want more customization? Done!
Wanna freely swap covenants? Done!
Hate conduit energy and just wanna swap conduits as much as your heart desires? Done!

Among other things.

They're basically doing everything they should have done with the expansion launch now. It's coming late but the players appreciate it.

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Not just that, the fact they have lost most of their playerbase. Also, some of the players that are still there appreciate it. They don't really have good vibes toward their overlords over there.

I dunno, at what point do you quit trying to bail water and head for the life raft?

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

Not just that, the fact they have lost most of their playerbase.

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Since none of us never got real numbers i find always funny to assume things like that out of the magic hat.
"Yeah but look at reddit and forums" those aren't even the majority to begin with even more it's a tiny bit of a games population, sure they lost subscribers, lost "most of it" is a bit of a stretch.

There are other ways, data is drawn from leaderboards and such, then comparing those numbers to previous months/years you will see a downward trend in numbers.
It's not a big deal, I mean the game is well past its prime, it's done great to get this far. It's also nothing personal, so try not to make it such. You aren't the games company, just like yoshi isn't my long lost uncle.