"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weebtext

I've seen the massive first pull to the boss in Mt Gulg be done in a PUG situation where the tank was lv 79 while the rest of us were 80. We wiped three times but we still did it, because that absolute unit of a tank kept going and never gave up on that pull. We all believed in that pull, we all achieved that pull and let me tell you it felt absolutely amazing.

Try to have some faith in your parties instead of worrying so much about the dungeon halting, live a little!

---

Not to be cynical, but if I'm in a pug group I'm not there for a challenge or to have to dedicate a bunch of effort and faith into pressing through something there's absolutely no need to press through. I'd rather split the pull in half than waste a bunch of time dying and running back unnecessarily.

Like, dying isn't a big deal in this game, but that certainly doesn't make it fun. Maybe I'm just negatively conditioned from other games I've played or something lmao. I still cringe thinking about when you needed to run back for WoW dungeons, which sometimes involved running across literally the entire zone or trekking through an actual maze of a cave. Now dying and running back is just irritating to me in general lmao

If the group can handle wall to wall, great, go nuts. But if they clearly can't, I'm not interested in waiting for them to figure out how. The group as a whole sets the pace, imo, and if you want a consistent one then you've gotta go with friends. The only consistent thing about pug groups is that they are not at all consistent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinhi

if the rest of the party wasn't okay with attempting another big pull, they probably would've said something ;)

---

Or they're like me and just wanted to get through it and be done, and were one wipe away from straight up just leaving the group. Or they did say something, and got ignored, which I've also seen happen.

I've gotten to the point where I expect pug groups to be average to mediocre at best, and keep my expectations low, so I can put up with a lot of godawful play. Commenting, in my experience, isn't always worth it and doesn't always help, and I just generally don't care enough to speak up anymore unless things get absolutely ridiculous levels of bad. Doesn't mean the run was "good" though : p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The devs have also said that trusts are intentionally made slower than df runs so they don't become the preferred way to do dungeons by the majority.

So they intentionally slowed down the trusts, they do less damage and don't aoe

---

You mean after I hit shb I don't have to run rouletts with players anymore? Can I do this with pre-shb content? Be still my heart...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

You mean after I hit shb I don't have to run rouletts with players anymore? Can I do this with pre-shb content? Be still my heart...

---

Yes and no. You have to unlock Squadrons, which shows up after you hit Second Lieutenant in your GC (I think), so you have to do some seal grinding and a few GC quests which lead you through a couple of side dungeons like Dzemael Darkhold and Aurum Vale.

Once you have them, you have to grind them a bit via normal missions in order to unlock Command missions, which allow you to take your gaggle of AI squadron buddies into select dungeons directly. And even then, they only go up to around level 60 dungeons iirc.

So there's a gap between 60 and 71 (where you unlock your first ShB dungeon with Trusts) where you have to either do regular dungeons, Fate grind, or do the Stormblood Palace of the Dead equivalent, Heaven-on-High. Which I believe unlocks once you get through the story around that little fishing village in the Ruby Sea, iirc.

OP are you on Crystal? I would be honored for you to tank a dungeon for me and heal you. I am tired of dong content like it is a Japanese Super Mario Bros. level where I might run out of time and die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

I have healed in FC runs he has tanked, he was competent but cautious. It was his first run of Ghimlyt Dark, and he wished to pull more slowly while he got a feel for the dungeon. A considerate person would have encouraged him to pull a little more, and then a little more than that, and tried to help him build confidence. Had it not been his first run, he would not have felt so tentative. As it was he was insulted and told to quit playing, which he did. This does not make me proud to be a member of this community. In fact whatever it is in the duty roulette, it's definitely not a community. More of an 'eat or get eaten' jungle

---

I'm going to be a little blunt. If this FC tank of yours is that afraid, then he shouldn't be tanking in DF. It's completely unreasonable to expect three random strangers to go at a snail's pace in a 70 dungeon because a tank is this anxious. I get that he was new to the dungeon but if we're being honest here, they're all hallway simulators. When you've done one, you've done them all. Players aren't toxic for wanting a faster run, especially in old content.

As nightshade said above me, do one dungeon post 50 and you've done them all, worse case you pull 2 groups and then you see.
And I don't understand how tanks feel like their job is difficult or pulling more is anything different than pulling one, let me describe both gameplay:
1 pack: Run to the pack -> press a CD or two and aoe -> keep a cd rolling
2 packs: Run to the pack -> aoe -> go to the next one -> press a CD and aoe -> keep defensive cd rolling.
And as unbelievable as it looks, 3 packs is the same! Nothing you do as a tank outside of pressing a cooldown actually affects anything.

Then yeah, your healers and dps must actually press buttons and learn what they do, elementary knowledge is hard, like prime numbers as we see in ridorana.

If you were seeing someone doing a 100M sprint by walking instead of running because "it's more comfortable", you'd wonder what kind of clown it is and that it's not for them. Here, we have the same case: the game is made for multipulls but you just do single target pull because you don't want to put any effort and then you complain when people say something about it with a "they are toxic".

You won't learn unless you actually do it, same for healers, and if you fail, it means you need to learn because you are not up to par and not cower and only go for single pull because "it's scary someone died in a videogame and we lost 60 sec", which is still less than doing single target pulls. You learnt million of things in your life, that's just another one, you don't have to put less effort in it because it's an "online game", that's just selfish for the others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avidria

if I'm in a pug group I'm not there for a challenge or to have to dedicate a bunch of effort and faith into pressing through something there's absolutely no need to press through. I'd rather split the pull in half than waste a bunch of time dying and running back unnecessarily.

Like, dying isn't a big deal in this game, but that certainly doesn't make it fun.

---

DINGDINGDING We have a winner! I should have included this in the OP, but yes, so very much this!

I do not play with strangers to be challenged. I establish for myself a set of parameters that pretty much guarantees success and renders the experience "idiot proof" (not to call y'all idiots, it's an established turn of phrase) in case of new players or those less comfortable with the pressure role of healing. I err on the side of "take'er easy," because I know that will end in success, and because, to be quite frank, every healer-player I've ever known personally has greatly appreciated and trusted in my care for their stress levels.

And, once again... I am still getting "swift completion" credit and therefore objectively going "fast enough." So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

This was the first xpac I got every job to cap for the amaro and learned tanks are just dps tha can survive getting punched longer. What is it about tanking that scares everyone? Does running slightly ahead of the others really tie your stomach in knots?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omedon

DINGDINGDING We have a winner! I should have included this in the OP, but yes, so very much this!

I do not play with strangers to be challenged. I establish for myself a set of parameters that pretty much guarantees success and renders the experience "idiot proof" (not to call y'all idiots, it's an established turn of phrase) in case of new players or those less comfortable with the pressure role of healing. I err on the side of "take'er easy," because I know that will end in success, and because, to be quite frank, every healer-player I've ever known personally has greatly appreciated and trusted in my care for their stress levels.

And, once again... I am still getting "swift completion" credit and therefore objectively going "fast enough."

---

OR you could just ask a simple 2 word question "Pull big?" And see what others want to do. You are one of four, not THE one.

Not that you should really need to ask, as such an experienced and competent tank, simply pulling the first two packs and seeing how well the group performs should tell you all you need to know about the pace you can keep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

OR you could just ask a simple 2 word question "Pull big?" And see what others want to do. You are one of four, not THE one.

Not that you should really need to ask, as such an experienced and competent tank, simply pulling the first two packs and seeing how well the group performs should tell you all you need to know about the pace you can keep.

---

My fault for editing this in while you were responding, so I’ll repeat it here:

So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omedon

My fault for editing this in while you were responding, so I’ll repeat it here:

So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

---

The "swift completion time" you keep basing yourself off of hasn't been updated since it was added in 2.0, when runs were expected to take 40 minutes or so because no one was geared and everyone was new.

Dungeons have a timer of 90 minutes, I've timed out in aurum vale before, in 2.0. Ive timed out in amdapor keep.


That was 8 years ago. Much has changed since then.

You are basing your performance off an 8 year old, under geared, lack of knowledge metric.

Of course you are beating that metric. If you weren't, something would be very, very wrong.

You can do some dungeons like anti tower or matoya in like less than 15 min nowadays, and god bless I sometimes forgot I'm a healer even with big pulls, there's nothing to heal

Me and friends have wall pulled with the grand company squad many many times with no issues.

It is most startling just how much damage they can do when all have offensive tactics maxed. Tis 60% damage boost if am remembering correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

This was the first xpac I got every job to cap for the amaro and learned tanks are just dps tha can survive getting punched longer. What is it about tanking that scares everyone? Does running slightly ahead of the others really tie your stomach in knots?

---

With the amount of "Bad is ackshully good and good is ackshully bad" going on in this thread, I'm starting to think it's just the same form of ego-preserving contrarianism that you frequently see in other areas of this games community. You never have to admit to incompetence if you simply create your own arbitrary standards for what 'good' is.

These kinds of arguments of "I'm actually saving time by not causing wipes" and "I'm making my healer happy" are hilarious to anyone who seriously tanks or heals in this game. Wipes in dungeons due to double pulling are insanely rare and usually the result of someone flat out disconnecting. Some tank jobs can even do double pulls without a healer. With W2W wipes are still so rare that the time saved far outweighs any time spent on the occasional wipe. Any decent healer will find single pulls frustrating, as they don't get to engage with 90% of their kit.

If someone is finding that they constantly wipe to double pulls or w2w pulls as a tank or healer, they should examine their own play instead of trying to offload blame onto third parties, or engage in fantasies about how playing badly actually makes them a good player.

Just don't listen to the people here.
The reality is that most people are nice and they usually don't care about the speed. It's just the vocal minority here.

Here everyone is a God-tier raider with a purple parse, 5 wives, 11 children and 3 jobs so they only have 11,5 minutes for a dungeon. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

Just don't listen to the people here.
The reality is that most people are nice and they usually don't care about the speed. It's just the vocal minority here.

Here everyone is a God-tier raider with a purple parse, 5 wives, 11 children and 3 jobs so they only have 11,5 minutes for a dungeon. lol

---

Careful with that straw, you don't want to start a fire now do you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaconBits

Careful with that straw, you don't want to start a fire now do you?

---

Yeah, yeah. Something, something echo chamber.

As I said before, the actual community is really nice. I wouldn't worry about the occasional bad apple. :)

Here everyone is a God-tier raider with a purple parse

Only purple ? Damn peasants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

Yeah, yeah. Something, something echo chamber.

As I said before, the actual community is really nice. I wouldn't worry about the occasional bad apple. :)

---

Yea thankfully I only run into the odd bad apple as you put it that doesn’t care about how much of everyone else’s time they are wasting. The community as a whole is decent about trying to get things done so others can continue on with their next goal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

Just don't listen to the people here.
The reality is that most people are nice and they usually don't care about the speed. It's just the vocal minority here.

Here everyone is a God-tier raider with a purple parse, 5 wives, 11 children and 3 jobs so they only have 11,5 minutes for a dungeon. lol

---

seems like you're envious of those competent players that value their time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avidria

Or they're like me and just wanted to get through it and be done, and were one wipe away from straight up just leaving the group. Or they did say something, and got ignored, which I've also seen happen.

I've gotten to the point where I expect pug groups to be average to mediocre at best, and keep my expectations low, so I can put up with a lot of godawful play. Commenting, in my experience, isn't always worth it and doesn't always help, and I just generally don't care enough to speak up anymore unless things get absolutely ridiculous levels of bad. Doesn't mean the run was "good" though : p

---

Using my Mt Gulg example, most tanks if we wipe will see the party can't handle the big pull and they'll voluntarily dial it back. I'm as chill in DF as someone can be but I'll speak up if they don't and suggest we go smaller. In the situation where we wiped three times, I told them let's split this one up so we can get through it and we can try again on the next one. When the next big pull didn't go so well, we started taking it a bit smaller and things went a lot smoother. I think too many people take it personally if they can't manage a big pull and think it's some sort of personal failing, but it's not. That particular collection of people can't manage it for whatever reason and there's no shame in that.

I've had tanks say they were drunk or high and they weren't gonna try to big pull, and I was pretty thankful for that. Fun runs because they were a hoot even on small pulls.

I think part of the problem for the OP and maybe also all the tanks who have recently complained of the 'gogogo', wall to wall pull type of attitude is mostly just fear. Fear of messing up and dying, costing the party more time wasted. However, I also think (as a tank main with all tanks done) that this fear is misplaced. With the one caveat of having a good (not awesome, even) healer, tanks should know that YOU WILL NEVER DIE if you use mitigation and self healing skills if needed at points. I think those hesitant to wall to wall pull maybe have just never done it and seen that you honestly have to TRY to die doing those pulls, especially in 80 dungeons.

I think if anxious tanks just let go of the fear of wiping, or dying, they'd see that it is best to just take a carefree attitude of 'I'll just pull everything I can b/c there's no way I'm gonna die anyway' mentality. Then again, perhaps I'm just crazy for thinking like that...but I haven't died at all on a wall to wall pull in all the dungeons and roulettes I do, at least not in recent memory over the past months. Again, with a new healer who is not comfortable with those pulls, and asks me not to - or if I see the dps can't keep up, of course I'll slow down -- that's part of party communication and understanding. But I think not pulling this way, or at least not attempting to, is done out of a misplaced fear that should be dropped // plus you'll have more fun ^^

You must have no idea about what you're doing to die in dungeons as a tank that's it.
Run -> take a pack 1 aoe -> Run -> take second pack 1 aoe etc -> Wall
Pop a strong CD or 2 little one -> Spam aoe until everything dies.
Kill the boss and repeat until it's done.
That's it, there is nothing more to it unless you're lost with ur abilities or have the reaction time of my 90 yo grandma you cant fuck that up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm going to be a little blunt. If this FC tank of yours is that afraid, then he shouldn't be tanking in DF. It's completely unreasonable to expect three random strangers to go at a snail's pace in a 70 dungeon because a tank is this anxious. I get that he was new to the dungeon but if we're being honest here, they're all hallway simulators. When you've done one, you've done them all. Players aren't toxic for wanting a faster run, especially in old content.

---

I'm also going to be blunt. You have missed the point of my post.

I have never said that tanks should pull one group at a time. If they are confident, they should pull as many as they think their team can handle. When I run roulette with my friends, whether I'm healing or tanking or dps, we pull the biggest group we can manage. Sometimes we can pull off Mt. Gulg but that's the trickiest one.

What I am actually asking is that confident, competent players try to help those less confident and competent. If the other three in the Ghimlyt Dark had been sympathetic and helpful instead of insulting and rude, my friend might still be playing. He might have discovered he COULD do whatever it was that was bothering him (mostly that he had never run the dungeon before). Similarly, if the healer is struggling (for whatever reason) try and assist instead of telling them to 'git gud'.

I'm not denying for a second that there are deeply unpleasant people who play poorly and don't care; you can't help them so by all means stop trying if they spit in your face. I've probably encountered as many if not more of those in the 'toxic' DF I am talking about.

Tldr: my friends and I (15 to 20 people depending on where we are in the xpac) don't use the DF unless we absolutely have to because of the number of rude and unhelpful people we've encountered there. So please TRY not to be one of them

That's not our job to teach others anything ? If you cant at least play somewhat right after hundreds of hours of plays it's on you and only you.
Why bother learning anything anyway, that's others job to carry me and teach me something that i will forget in 5 min and be patient and pat me on the back.
If you're at Stormblood/shadowbringer xpac and you need someone to teach you tanking you're the problem not the "mean toxic df players that expect me to do my job"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

Tldr: my friends and I (15 to 20 people depending on where we are in the xpac) don't use the DF unless we absolutely have to because of the number of rude and unhelpful people we've encountered there.

---

If you're truly encountering so many evil baddies that want to personally uninstall your game in DF then maybe a little bit of self-reflection is in order? Just a thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinhi

seems like you're envious of those competent players that value their time

---

You're playing a video game. You have time. If you can't spend more than 10 minutes don't queue with DF (since you never know who you gonna get) or eat the penalty. I'd do the same. I'm not losing sleep over some EXP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

You're playing a video game. You have time. If you can't spend more than 10 minutes don't queue with DF (since you never know who you gonna get) or eat the penalty. I'd do the same. I'm not losing sleep over some EXP.

---

Playing a video game =/= accept to waste time because someone else feels like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weebtext

If you're truly encountering so many evil baddies that want to personally uninstall your game in DF then maybe a little bit of self-reflection is in order? Just a thought.

---

Goodness me, some of you people do have reading comprehension problems.

We are a GROUP (generally implies more than one, even if I hadn't specially said 15-20 people) of people who have played the game since release (some before but there was no DF then). There are quite a few of us. If we all ran two or three roulette a day for 10 years that's... A lot of roulette.

So yeah, we've had good runs as well as bad runs. We've had runs where an ice mage has insisted Fire2 costs too much MP, a healer in Amdapor Hard didn't have a job stone, many SMNs who refused to use Dots, tanks who wanted to kill everything down every side passage, tanks who wouldn't wait for other members who had to AFK RQ, tanks who wouldn't AoE, tanks who wouldn't use tank stance, healers who wouldn't dps, healers who wouldn't heal. We've also had healers running ahead because the tank is new and nervous, tanks refusing to slow down because the healer is new and nervous, various people wanting to vote kick someone because they aren't happy about them (for petty reasons as well as more serious ones) On some of these occasions the people involved responded well when approached patiently and pleasantly. On some we basically got told to ×××× off. After eight years or so of this we reached the conclusion we'd only use DF if we had no choice.

I'm really at a loss to work out why you think that merits some self-reflection on my part? Perhaps you'd care to elucidate?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omedon

Believe me, if I had the option in the 60s to use NPCs I would (and no, running the vault to 71 doesn't count). My point is the 60s don't have that option, it's the only bracket with this problem post level 20, and it's never ok to be rude to someone pulling at a reasonable pace. I'm getting swift completion rewards. That is literally fast enough.

---

I've gotten swift completion reward on hour long dungeon hells before.

So unless an hour is still quick to Square for a dungeon you can do in 15, I think "Swift" just means "Please kill it."

I'm pretty sure you get the swift completion reward so long as you complete the dungeon.

People get frustrated when one member of the party is slowing the whole group's progress because they aren't comfortable tanking anything but a single pack at a time. At the end of the day, it's important to remember that your party members are people and not NPCs designed to blow up the monsters for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izscha

Playing a video game =/= accept to waste time because someone else feels like it.

---

For people here it's wasting time if someone looks at a dungeon drop or a boss cut scene. Give me a break. Nobody counts seconds like that and gets angry about it. That's downright psychotic. Some people here really need a chill pill. lol

The made-up contempt for everything is just unreal and if it gets to that point you should have gotten a break ages ago. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

For people here it's wasting time if someone looks at a dungeon drop or a boss cut scene. Give me a break. Nobody counts seconds like that and gets angry about it. That's downright psychotic. Some people here really need a chill pill. lol

The made-up contempt for everything is just unreal and if it gets to that point you should have gotten a break ages ago. :p

---

Making things up doesn't count as an answer nor an argument, but it's fun to watch you try at least.
The random attack on ppl enjoying parsing was really funny tho i give you that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

For people here it's wasting time if someone looks at a dungeon drop or a boss cut scene. Give me a break. Nobody counts seconds like that and gets angry about it. That's downright psychotic. Some people here really need a chill pill. lol

The made-up contempt for everything is just unreal and if it gets to that point you should have gotten a break ages ago. :p

---

weren't you the one who made up a 'funny' description of people valuing their time early so you could moral grandstand and show what a nice and helpful person you are by making fun of them?
I mean, it's fine if you're ok with enabling absolutely horrible players that don't know their class after having played the game for hundreds of hours, but it's pretty bad to expect people to be willing to do the same, wouldn't you think?
but your unfunny attempt at a joke (again) aside, you know what people consider wasting time?
20 minute dungeons taking 30, 40 or even more minutes because everyone but you apparently is unable to press the glowing combo or damage buttons
30-40 minute CT raids (and that's already on the slower side) taking over an hour because of the same issue and people ignoring every single mechs because they're that lazy and no, usually not new, even if you explain it in detail
expert dungeons taking longer than 20 minutes
but I'm sure all of those are fine with you and, I'll be honest, usually the people defending those very players that ask for a carry are those kind of players themselves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izscha

Making things up doesn't count as an answer nor an argument, but it's fun to watch you try at least.
The random attack on ppl enjoying parsing was really funny tho i give you that

---

I think parsing can be fine. Especially for self-improvement. Something the game is really bad at teaching, honestly. For a select few, though. Yikes. Tunnel vision as far as numbers go, be they DPS or measurements of time. But, again, I rarely encounter those types in-game. :)

But yeah. I see why SE isn't answering anything on the official forums. Can't blame them. x)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izscha

Making things up doesn't count as an answer nor an argument, but it's fun to watch you try at least.
The random attack on ppl enjoying parsing was really funny tho i give you that

---

It's important to understand that the moral framework of this type of person is essentially "I am a good person; ergo, anything I do is morally justified and anyone who disagrees with me is a bad person". They rely almost completely on constructing strawmen and insulting the nature of their opposition because engaging with the actual content of the arguments presented would call their established beliefs about their own morality into question.

It's a simple part of human nature to become frustrated when certain types of repetitive activities take more time than expected, particularly when the wait feels unjustified. If a karen is holding up the checkout line at a shop because they're screaming at the cashier and trying to redeem expired coupons, most of the people waiting will be justifiably frustrated. If someone is stuck in traffic on their commute home because someone else has decided to drive 20 mph on a one-lane highway, they'll probably get frustrated. If a tank who has reached the latter half of the game refuses to pull more than a single pack at a time out of personal preference, most players will be reasonably frustrated, particularly if the person continues when asked by the party to pull more, or god forbid has a meltdown as these types often do.

People that grandstand on these types issues generally aren't ascendant moral beings. Typically their need to constantly signal their morality and righteousness, while attempting to undermine people with completely reasonable grievances or arguments is actually a strong indicator that they're not a great person. If you spend time on FFXIV twitter, you see a ton of this kind of behavior

The funny thing is that how fast you run a dungeon is more about a healer than a tank.
Yeah the tank is the one pulling and getting all the aggro but at the end of the day it's about how much the healer is comfortable at healing it all.
Wanting to get the most mob you can is not only faster but challenging. I mean, there is no reason you wouldn't want to pull more unless the healer can't keep up.
If you as a tank don't feel safe to do it, that's ok, but don't be so hard on yourself and try things.

It's so fun when I get a healer that says "pull them all" and I do it even when it looks like we can't survive it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

What I am actually asking is that confident, competent players try to help those less confident and competent. If the other three in the Ghimlyt Dark had been sympathetic and helpful instead of insulting and rude, my friend might still be playing. He might have discovered he COULD do whatever it was that was bothering him (mostly that he had never run the dungeon before). Similarly, if the healer is struggling (for whatever reason) try and assist instead of telling them to 'git gud'.

---

First and foremost, let's define "insulting and rude" because I see far too often those adjectives being applied to any sort of criticism. You mention elsewhere they told your tank friend to essentially uninstalled. What prompted that response? People usually don't jump to the nuclear option instantaneously. Did he refuse to tank the extra mobs; perhaps turning off his stance or purposely sheathing his weapon and letting them die? If it were entirely unprovoked, then they were jerks. I'll grant you that. Therefore, they aren't worth a second thought.

With all this said, you are once again putting the onus on random strangers. It isn't our job to be patient and overly accommodate to someone who hasn't even learned the basics of their jobs by level 70. At 50? Sure, I'll be more accommodating. And even more so in early leveling dungeons. By Ghimlyn Dark though, we've long reached a point of taking initiative. It's a similar vein to DPS not AoEing or Healers refusing to DPS. If you haven't figured out how to weave in some DPS as a healer or how your AoE buttons work by 70, you're simply being lazy. Refusing to pull more than a single pack on a four year old dungeon at that same level is laziness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanes

The funny thing is that how fast you run a dungeon is more about a healer than a tank.
Yeah the tank is the one pulling and getting all the aggro but at the end of the day it's about how much the healer is comfortable at healing it all.
Wanting to get the most mob you can is not only faster but challenging. I mean, there is no reason you wouldn't want to pull more unless the healer can't keep up.
If you as a tank don't feel safe to do it, that's ok, but don't be so hard on yourself and try things.

It's so fun when I get a healer that says "pull them all" and I do it even when it looks like we can't survive it.

---

It's about the whole party, not one role or individual. Strong DPS melt packs making big pulls easier and faster, strong tanks give everyone the stability to perform and strong healers give the tank confidence. Obviously tanks and healers also put out decent DPS as well as soon as everything else is taken care of.