It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

What does this term "slyphies" mean? Is it some derogatory term worth being banned for using or some sort of elitist term meant to segregate casual healers from the best of the best worth being banned for using?

Honestly curious.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

What does this term "slyphies" mean? Is it some derogatory term worth being banned for using or some sort of elitist term meant to segregate casual healers from the best of the best worth being banned for using?

Honestly curious.

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It's a reference to the Conjurer quest lines where our companion character is named "Sylphie". She carries the mentality that she only wants to heal. The Conjurer questline beats it into her head, and subsequently the player's, that's not what you should be doing. If you don't need to heal, add to DPS.

But, I doubt you actually wanted to know the answer. Something tells me you just wanted a reason to report everyone here for rightfully telling you off since you contribute nothing to the conversation.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

It's a reference to the Conjurer quest lines where our companion character is named "Sylphie". She carries the mentality that she only wants to heal. The Conjurer questline beats it into her head, and subsequently the player's, that's not what you should be doing. If you don't need to heal, add to DPS.

But, I doubt you actually wanted to know the answer. Something tells me you just wanted a reason to report everyone here for rightfully telling you off since you contribute nothing to the conversation.

---

https://i.gifer.com/9kRS.gif

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

It's a reference to the Conjurer quest lines where our companion character is named "Sylphie". She carries the mentality that she only wants to heal. The Conjurer questline beats it into her head, and subsequently the player's, that's not what you should be doing. If you don't need to heal, add to DPS.

But, I doubt you actually wanted to know the answer. Something tells me you just wanted a reason to report everyone here for rightfully telling you off since you contribute nothing to the conversation.

---

So it's a derogatory term for players who just care about healing. Got it. Then I will treat it as such. Basically the "snowflake" of FF14 but directed specifically at healers.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Agreed. it's amazing how many would-be healers just want more dps. Shows how little they know about actual healing.

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I'll give you a little TLDR break down incase you decide to pay attention for a moment:

The root of what people are asking for is something to break up the simple fact that an experienced healer will be pressing 1 single button 100 to 200 times in a single Extreme/Savage fight.

We've asked for more healing ever since 3.4 with creator. Other than a bump with 4.2. We've never gotten it, and now Yoshida is pretty much on record saying they aren't going to pressure healers for more healing at this point (Which IMHO is a mistake). Asking for more here appears to be a waste of time.

We used to have much more comprehensive debuff and buff kits, they have consistently been removed or 'streamlined' expansion on expansion without fail (Again, an idiotic mistake on SE's part here). Asking for more here appears to be a waste of time.

What other avenue is left? Do you have a better idea to improve gameplay engagement for experienced healers in tightly scripted content? Feel free to drop it here.

And ps, before you chalk me up as another green dps. I can assure you I'm not. I Ranked 2nd AST worldwide for HPS in Creator, 4th WHM worldwide for Gordias, only managed top 25 for Midas because of a house fire derailed me that tier. (For what HPS rankings are worth anyway) I'd absolutely love for content to actually pressure my healing in the way that Gordias used to back in the day. But outside of the first couple of weeks of progression, it just doesn't anymore.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

So it's a derogatory term for players who just care about healing. Got it. Then I will treat it as such. Basically the "snowflake" of FF14 but directed specifically at healers.

Thanks for the clarification.

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To be fair, though, I also think we shouldn't be calling those players "Sylphie."

I mean, Sylphie actually learned she was wrong, apologized, and became a better person. I was happy to see her again in the StB WHM questlines.

That's far more than I could say for some people here.

Thanks for the pointless tldr and unasked for chestpounding.

I'm well aware of the "dps as heals is boring, we has one button" argument and I still say it's both flawed (you do have more than one dps action, you know) and entitled (you're definitely a healer, not a dps, read the job description.)

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

To be fair, though, I also think we shouldn't be calling those players "Sylphie."

I mean, Sylphie actually learned she was wrong, apologized, and became a better person. I was happy to see her again in the StB WHM questlines.

That's far more than I could say for some people here.

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Then from now on, refer to yourself as Slyphie and maybe we'll listen to you.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Thanks for the pointless tldr and unasked for chestpounding.

I'm well aware of the "dps as heals is boring, we has one button" argument and I still say it's both flawed (you do have more than one dps action, you know) and entitled (you're definitely a healer, not a dps, read the job description.)

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Yeah, that's the forums in a nutshell. The loudest convinced others that there is only one way and when you challenge that view you get ostracized. lol It's not like some views aren't sound, mind. I'm just saying people can have very different viewpoints and therefore arrive at different conclusions. But that's not allowed here. Echo chamber and all that. But that's not a thing that bothers me.

What I find funny is, that so many people here make suggestions while screaming that the game will fail or whatever if it doesn't get implemented or something. Heck, it's not like I don't want some changes on [x], but you can't argue with success. And XIV is as successful as can be right now. Sure, discussions can get heated but in the end this is for feedback. Every voice and so on. I don't follow the doomsday cult.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

What does this term "slyphies" mean? Is it some derogatory term worth being banned for using or some sort of elitist term meant to segregate casual healers from the best of the best worth being banned for using?

Honestly curious.

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Can we just admire the very lore-friendly way of insulting people for a second? I love it. lol

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Yeah, that's the forums in a nutshell. The loudest convinced others that there is only one way and when you challenge that view you get ostracized. lol It's not like some views aren't sound, mind. I'm just saying people can have very different viewpoints and therefore arrive at different conclusions. But that's not allowed here. Echo chamber and all that. But that's not a thing that bothers me.

What I find funny is, that so many people here make suggestions while screaming that the game will fail or whatever if it doesn't get implemented or something. Heck, it's not like I don't want some changes on [x], but you can't argue with success. And XIV is as successful as can be right now. Sure, discussions can get heated but in the end this is for feedback. Every voice and so on. I don't follow the doomsday cult.

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My man!

Same here. I'm not here for the Likes.

Apologies if I'm trying to back up my points with some substance to verify my claims. Let's be clear though, I'm not trying to chest pound. I'm trying to make it clear that I would rather play like a pure healer myself. The HPS rankings are pretty much a meme and always have been frankly, as they are the mark of someone who's just healing over their team mate rather than coordinating efficiently. Which is something I used to do to rather extreme levels.

And no, it's not a flawed argument by any stretch. Once you A) Understand and roughly remember how a fight goes & B) Have some confidence in your kit and abilities & C) Hit your first time in progression content where a significant amount of healer DPS is flat out required to clear (E8S is probably the clearest recent example of this, you don't have to go back to HW).

Your cast bars will look like this:

https://i.imgur.com/ZoCAiqT.png

The 'better' you are at memorising and optimising, the more extreme it gets. That image is from a run of mine where I got a decidedly meh 71%.

This isn't a minority or elitist thing by any stretch, go look any clear run in savage, all the healer uploads look as skewed as each other.

Here's the most first upload at the top of the list when I clicked there myself:

https://i.imgur.com/xflFWdW.png

The simple fact is that the healing in this game is fundamentally flawed and needs a total rethink. That's not going to happen at this stage, at least not whilst Yoshida is still in charge. Adding some variance to what we can do in all the downtime is the path of least resistance towards at least putting some kind of a bandaid over the issue for now.

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and entitled (you're definitely a healer, not a dps, read the job description.)

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Do you realise how flawed this argument is? To repeat a minor point I made above. Many Savage turns are *NOT* clearable without healer DPS. And no, this isn't a thing exclusive to Gordias or whatever. Even as recently as E8S. If your healers didn't contribute significant damage, you didn't beat enrage even with world class DPS players. It's as simple as this.

Please understand that there is a huge disconnect between Yoshida, the class design team and the battle design team and it is nothing new. This has been a strange issue pretty much since the release of Stormblood.

If you really can't see that there's a fundamental issue with healing in this game. Perhaps you'd consider telling me what other class has gameplay that is as heavily skewed towards a single button in end game play?

Just to further backup the E8S point:

https://i.imgur.com/hijvbxi.png?1

That's the lowest healer DPS run recorded. The overall damage done by the DPS and Tanks was very solid, but despite that the healers still needed to do a combined 6.5k+ dps ontop and they barely scraped by enrage.

There's that word again. Stop the segregation implied by the term Sylphie. We're all healers here.

Whether or not we've cleared savage. Whether or not we are fine with the current class build. Whether or not we agree with you. Slinging insults is how you lose a debate. How can I care about or consider anything you post if you start with insults?

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Yeah, that's the forums in a nutshell. The loudest convinced others that there is only one way and when you challenge that view you get ostracized. lol It's not like some views aren't sound, mind. I'm just saying people can have very different viewpoints and therefore arrive at different conclusions. But that's not allowed here. Echo chamber and all that. But that's not a thing that bothers me.

What I find funny is, that so many people here make suggestions while screaming that the game will fail or whatever if it doesn't get implemented or something. Heck, it's not like I don't want some changes on [x], but you can't argue with success. And XIV is as successful as can be right now. Sure, discussions can get heated but in the end this is for feedback. Every voice and so on. I don't follow the doomsday cult.

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The echo chamber thing is a fair opinion and I legitimately respect that. I've gone against the grain too at various points and yes, it's all too easy to get pounced on over stupid details, often missing the bigger picture at play.

However!

Please remember that the whole 'healers only heal' debate is as old as the game itself and it's always followed a very clear and distinct pattern without fail.

You'll get people who main other roles with healers being 'a bit on the side' wondering what we are going on about. It seems fine to them. Sometimes it's just newer players who are on their first tier or two and are still in the honeymoon period. But either way, in all my years on these boards, I've seen quite literally one single healer DPS decryer who actually backed up their opinions and stance with any kind of fact. They were around years ago and the ultimate irony of it all is after Stormblood, they pretty much ended up in the same jaded angry camp as all of us anyway :rolleyes:

Again, don't take me decrying a lack of experience as me snubbing you. I'm legitimate jealous of it and I wish I could go back to the days of Coil and HW when raid healing was still an evolving entity and new turns genuinely needed new approaches.

Understand that healing has been stuck in largely the same formula since Creator 5 full years ago whilst I'd argue that our kits have only changed for the worse.

Yes XIV is successful at the moment, there's no denying that. But it's success is largely coming at the expense of it's competition (or lack thereof) in the MMO space right now. You cannot look at those healer cast charts above and tell me that that is compelling gameplay?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

There's that word again. Stop the segregation implied by the term Sylphie. We're all healers here.

Whether or not we've cleared savage. Whether or not we are fine with the current class build. Whether or not we agree with you. Slinging insults is how you lose a debate. How can I care about or consider anything you post if you start with insults?

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I called myself it. It's literally a core story point in the healer questline. But for the sake of trying to keep this debate going. Sure I'll change it to Pure Healer. Could you go back and comment on the rest of my points now?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

There's that word again. Stop the segregation implied by the term Sylphie. We're all healers here.

Whether or not we've cleared savage. Whether or not we are fine with the current class build. Whether or not we agree with you. Slinging insults is how you lose a debate. How can I care about or consider anything you post if you start with insults?

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You're constantly calling people entitled and vain for disagreeing with you. You're constantly using strawmans to twist people's words. You've brought nothing to the table, no evidence, no argument. Don't complain about insults when you're the one who has been slinging mud.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Whether or not we've cleared savage. Whether or not we are fine with the current class build. Whether or not we agree with you.

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I made my comments. I'm not in the habit if calling others wrong. You say you contribute a lot of dps as a healer. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the necessity for change. Your own charts seem to indicate that the dps is in a fine place for healers and any change would be essentially cosmetic to fight extreme repetition.

See? I really do understand English. The op, however, wants to argue that healers dpsing should be of greater emphasis than it currently is or else it somehow implies that healers must be too thickskulled to do more.

But I disagree. My contention is that healers operate at all levels of proficiency and that SE MUST account for that and that's how I like it. Adding more options inevitably becomes requiring more from players, thus raising the required skill level in all content, a downward spiral.

That's not something I want to see.

To put into perspective using some data
Tank casts

https://imgur.com/6QMgRM0

Dps casts

https://imgur.com/M6zHKzt

Healer casts

https://imgur.com/9uCoDEl

(incase the pic dont show https://imgur.com/6QMgRM0 tank, https://imgur.com/M6zHKzt dps, https://imgur.com/9uCoDEl healer)

The tank and dps players got more options and abilities to play with so why do healers not get the same treatment. The expansion looks more like a dlc for current healers honestly. Worst if you play white mage.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm arguing with the necessity for change. Your own charts seem to indicate that the dps is in a fine place for healers and any change would be essentially cosmetic to fight extreme repetition.

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We agree, then, there is extreme repetition.

What would be a non-cosmetic change to fight exteme repetition?

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

We agree, then, there is extreme repetition.

What would be a non-cosmetic change to fight exteme repetition?

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Ergo the core of the argument and my personal stance: who says there is a need for change? The task at hand has never failed to gain my full focus. Perhaps I worry more about my party than some, but I've never considered it a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Ergo the core of the argument and my personal stance: who says there is a need for change? The task at hand has never failed to gain my full focus. Perhaps I worry more about my party than some, but I've never considered it a bad thing.

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So there is nothing wrong with extreme repetition in your eyes?

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

You're constantly calling people entitled and vain for disagreeing with you. You're constantly using strawmans to twist people's words. You've brought nothing to the table, no evidence, no argument. Don't complain about insults when you're the one who has been slinging mud.

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Your failure to convince me does not equal a stubborn refusal to see reason. It's that sort of flawed reasoning that tells me you will never convince me of anything.

And I'm calling people entitled and vain for disagreeing with my desire for disagreement.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

So there is nothing wrong with extreme repetition in your eyes?

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I'm saying that extreme repetition for you may not be so for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Your failure to convince me does not equal a stubborn refusal to see reason. It's that sort of flawed reasoning that tells me you will never convince me of anything.

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Really?

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Agreed. it's amazing how many would-be healers just want more dps. Shows how little they know about actual healing.

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This you? You've been repeating the same thing over and over. No matter how many times people have been telling you otherwise. It's not even the refusal to see reason, it's the refusal to accept the reality that the same people who are asking for more DPS tools are also the same people who would love to be able to heal more than anyone else. Nobody, literally nobody would pick a healer up and think "This is the perfect dps job for me!". People pick a healer job because they want to heal. But the game is not giving them that. That's why they have to resort to asking for more dps tools, to keep the gameplay engaging.

Stop twisting people's words, stop accusing people of wanting to turn healer jobs into DPS jobs, and stop your twisted gatekeeping power fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

So it's a derogatory term for players who just care about healing. Got it. Then I will treat it as such. Basically the "snowflake" of FF14 but directed specifically at healers.

Thanks for the clarification.

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It’s more a about waisting the time of your group then anything else and I also think the same about tanks not using cd and forcing the healer player too heal dmg you can mitigate (hallowed ground and superbolide is not a collectors item so use it on cd every pull of possible in a dungeon) or dps not knowing basic rotation and buff uses. You can simply read abilities and see on the health bars the player have how much dmg the aoe or attack of trash or bosses do, and you can see if the tank used cds or not. The dmg bosses/trash does is always set there is no magic surprise after they removed crit chances from mobs/bosses from every content above patch 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I made my comments. I'm not in the habit if calling others wrong. You say you contribute a lot of dps as a healer. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the necessity for change. Your own charts seem to indicate that the dps is in a fine place for healers and any change would be essentially cosmetic to fight extreme repetition.

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I think you're misunderstanding my overall point?

I'm honestly not bothered by the amount of DPS that we contribute to the overall raid. I'm simply pointing out that it is a necessity by design. Again I've got to stress, I'd much rather be healing. I can't say I particularly enjoyed DPSing in raids back when we had a more fleshed out kit and I certainly don't now.

Rather the point is the manner in which we deal our DPS which is further compounded by us having nothing else to do in the excessive downtime that endgame content offers. Indeed, tackling the extreme repetition is something that SE should be trying to address. Instead we seem to be sliding in the opposite direction with each expansion seemingly making us lean further on that single key.

Compare the following (The AST from above):

https://i.imgur.com/xflFWdW.png?1

This is the PLD in the same run:

https://i.imgur.com/TUDa5Zv.png?1

The Redmage:

https://i.imgur.com/TUDa5Zv.png?1

The only one who comes even remotely close, SMN:

https://i.imgur.com/4zyI8ib.png?1

Things haven't always been like this for healers. Here's a run of mine on AST back in A12S:

https://i.imgur.com/ryNt06Y.png?1

That's a 9:47 fight. That's 234 GCDs for the entire fight if we assume 100% uptime. The AST pressed the same button for 204 out of 234 GCDs if we assume they didn't have to stop casting at any point. This isn't some amazing speed run, the AST got 65% for that. There are far more extreme runs I could use to pad out my point if I wanted to.

How many GCDs did they spend healing you ask? 4.... 4 Casts of aspected helios. The bulk of the healing was Earthly Star, CO, CU and Horoscope. Bonus fun fact, the AST did 41.4% of the healing vs their co healer's 34.5%. The Warrior contributed 10% of the healing, natural regeneration accounted for 8%.

It's taken a long sequence of continuous missteps by SE's job design team to get healers into the current situation that they are in now. Removing group utility, removing debuffs that needed to be carefully timed, removing our MP economy woes, removing the worries and pressure of a GCD centric healing kit, removing any worries over enmity, removing most of the depth and complexity to our DPS etc. I could go on but I hope you get the point.

The mark of a top flight raid healer used to be about efficient MP usage, minimising risks and keeping dots ticking.

Now it's about distilling as many of your GCDs into Glare/Broil/Malefics as is possible.

It's a sad state of affairs.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm saying that extreme repetition for you may not be so for everyone.

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And this is an absolutely fair opinion. The issue with it however is that other roles have choice. Do I want gameplay that leans more towards one button akin to healers? BLM is right there as a fair choice even if SMN might not be once Endwalker lands. If I don't want that? No problem, I can play any one of a variety of different jobs both within and outside of the caster role that offer a completely different style and flow of gameplay.

However, as a healer, I have no choice. Every healer boils down to the same loop of slamming that nuke button once you start optimising your play. It shouldn't be like this at all. SCH has Ruin II which should be it's alternative option, as should AST lean much more heavily on it's card play IMHO. But SE simply aren't willing to commit to developing those facets of their gameplay. Rather it just gets streamlined, simplified and dumbed down.

Look at cast charts for all 3 healers, they all play in the same manner once you start looking at cast counts. Sage isn't going to help in the slightest.

In closing. I don't really know how much clearer I can make it:

204 GCDs out of a 234 GCD savage fight spent pressing the same nuke button. (Vs actually spending 4 GCDs on healing casts)

This isn't healing.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm saying that extreme repetition for you may not be so for everyone.

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But that’s the good player vs bad player point you make here. But my question is what would change for you and people that don’t want to dps as healers when the people that want to get more stuff to do that. It won’t change the way you can enjoy the job and also does give people that don’t wanna be idle in downtime something too do. So everyone is happy

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm saying that extreme repetition for you may not be so for everyone.

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Or maybe it is and the fact that healers have been complaining in this forum for 2 years straight (Whm even more) is enough of a sample that what its unpopular is the extreme repetition coupled with how popular dps roles are, roles that don't have not even 1 job with similar design.

You claim extreme repetition may be enjoyable for more people to what I ask, whom? Give me a sample somewhere of veteran healers that are happy with the current design and it better be at least twice as big as this forum because in the dev's words "A complaint is worth twice a compliment" and even if you find one sample big enough, as other people have pointed, Why all healers have to be played like that? Tanks have gameplay choices, dps too, healers only get 3 (and it soon seems to be 4) of the same flavour.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I'm saying that extreme repetition for you may not be so for everyone.

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Well of course, isn't that the crux of the problem. Opinions are subjective. Fun is subjective. You never saw a problem with extreme repetition and I am sure a lot of people couldn't care less about the Glarebroil spam, after all they focus on keeping an eye on the health bars and mechanics waiting for that gauge to go down so they can do something about it. Anything else is an afterthought.

Some people would have fun on any job if you gave them 1 button to mash for 10 minutes. I am sure. You can't say people are wrong for enjoying that. There is no wrong or right in fun.

Ultimately the healer forums are filled with people who used to have fun with their healing jobs and now they do not. Does that warrant a re-work? Maybe. Maybe not. There are always going to be people upset about changes, satisfied with changes or indifferent towards changes. I guess devs need to gauge what the community wants. Upset people will always be more vocal. Are the healing forums an accurate representation of the community? Probably not.

Not everybody has the same definition as to what constitutes "engaging" gameplay. But to those who want more than one button to mash several times between heals, what do you say? Just deal with it or leave?

There are four healer jobs. There is enough space for everybody. Sage was an opportunity to make a healer that had a bigger focus on a DPS rotation and yet it is barely any different from the other three. The same formula for downtime, again.

I think people who wanted a healer with more interesting DPS options have the right to be upset. Phlegma III is barely a break in Dosis spam.

And yes the arguments they mostly have are not good ones but you can still try to have a decent talk.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

And yes the arguments they mostly have are not good ones but you can still try to have a decent talk.

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Ya, it's actually quite enjoyable on the occasions where we do manage to get a good discussion going, there are plenty of people on here who tend to go firmly against the grain but are more than capable of putting forward well thought out reasons for doing so.

Looking at RinaB's posts, I'm not too hopeful of that happening here though ;)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Ya, it's actually quite enjoyable on the occasions where we do manage to get a good discussion going, there are plenty of people on here who tend to go firmly against the grain but are more than capable of putting forward well thought out reasons for doing so.

Looking at RinaB's posts, I'm not too hopeful of that happening here though ;)

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At least you can try…… I don’t expect a response because normally these people come in here and say stuff like this without giving good examples at all. I’m pretty sure that some player even go full “mad manhunt” mode in dungeons when you dps as healer and they drop under 50 % health, like I had a lot of tanks using cds and after they saw me do dmg and not have them on 95% health all the time they just didn’t use any at all, forcing me to massively heal them or wipe, to prove some point or so (of course it’s rare that we do wipe because I have eyes, you know and can see buffs and health and realize that the tank takes way more dmg then he did 3 packs earlier because he doesn’t use any cd anymore).

I wish there could be actual discussion as well, but it honestly just ends up boiling down to using the same old tired and debunked talking points, or fanning the flames with the mean boogeymen that routinely kill the entire group out of spite. Zoning out or pushing your limits too far? No, obviously it's a Green DPS being a spiteful jerk!

Like, I am genuinely curious how people who refuse to deal damage out of principle keep this game entertaining for them. Using a somewhat mediocre The Grand Cosmos run I was in ages ago (because apparently people log those for some reason), the random healer there spent 60 GCDs healing in a 16:12 run. That's roughly 150 seconds spent healing, on a run that took us 972 seconds. That's about 15% of their time spent healing. And to defend the poor thing, they were actually dealing damage, too - a whole 126 GCDs of hardcast damage spells.

How do people justify sitting around 85% of their time in casual content, doing nothing? As much as filthy tryhards and god-tier gamers are accused of optimizing the fun out of the game, how does the other extreme have fun when effectively 85% of their time in an average run could be boiled down to watching the scenery or hitting a single button over and over?

And for comparison's sake, using one very good run of Matoya's Relict with two friends I consider rather competent, I spent 20 GCDs healing. With 41% overhealing, at that. That's 50 seconds out of a 792 second run. You're telling me that I should shut up and enjoy spending 93% of my time doing /dance or spamming Holy?

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Originally Posted by Raminax

I wish there could be actual discussion as well, but it honestly just ends up boiling down to using the same old tired and debunked talking points, or fanning the flames with the mean boogeymen that routinely kill the entire group out of spite. Zoning out or pushing your limits too far? No, obviously it's a Green DPS being a spiteful jerk!

Like, I am genuinely curious how people who refuse to deal damage out of principle keep this game entertaining for them. Using a somewhat mediocre The Grand Cosmos run I was in ages ago (because apparently people log those for some reason), the random healer there spent 60 GCDs healing in a 16:12 run. That's roughly 150 seconds spent healing, on a run that took us 972 seconds. That's about 15% of their time spent healing. And to defend the poor thing, they were actually dealing damage, too - a whole 126 GCDs of hardcast damage spells.

How do people justify sitting around 85% of their time in casual content, doing nothing? As much as filthy tryhards and god-tier gamers are accused of optimizing the fun out of the game, how does the other extreme have fun when effectively 85% of their time in an average run could be boiled down to watching the scenery or hitting a single button over and over?

And for comparison's sake, using one very good run of Matoya's Relict with two friends I consider rather competent, I spent 20 GCDs healing. With 41% overhealing, at that. That's 50 seconds out of a 792 second run. You're telling me that I should shut up and enjoy spending 93% of my time doing /dance or spamming Holy?

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See, here are the limits of "In my opinion the system is perfect because I have fun. " or "In my opinion the system is not good because I don't have fun."

It's not a useful criticism- Because its impossible to get to some sort of conscensus. And when there is a partial conscensus it's the rule of that majority, ostracising the minority. We can't have both.

But we can! We could have both. There are enough Healer jobs to warrant variability- In the same way there are enough DPS jobs to warrant variability. Some DPS jobs are more complicated than the others. Their potentials different, their niches distinct.

And with healers it is somewhat true: Their healing niches and abilities are distinct. But when it comes to their downtime filler abilities, not so much.

Why would the devs ignore the distinctivness that part of the healer jobs can potentially bring? Homogenization? Balance? Accessibility? Why are healers (And tanks, honestly) cursed with this double standard in design?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

00:40 - Mechanics! Move accordingly and you won't die or take damage! This mechanic repeats 3 more times up till...
01:42 - Different mechanic! Move accordingly and you won't die!

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Man, I sure am happy for everyone on this board whose parties always completely avoid mechanics such that they never have to heal absolutely anything but unavoidable damage and tanks. That's totally a completely realistic expectation for everyone in the entire game. We should just have our statics wipe as soon as someone touches a mechanic that they could have avoided since, well, they were supposed to avoid it, afterall. They don't need healing, they just need to do the mechanics perfectly like everyone else does. Clearly healers never have to deal with unexpected damage and know exactly when to press every button they've ever pressed.

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Originally Posted by Tarrick

Man, I sure am happy for everyone on this board whose parties always completely avoid mechanics such that they never have to heal absolutely anything but unavoidable damage and tanks. That's totally a completely realistic expectation for everyone in the entire game. We should just have our statics wipe as soon as someone touches a mechanic that they could have avoided since, well, they were supposed to avoid it, afterall. They don't need healing, they just need to do the mechanics perfectly like everyone else does. Clearly healers never have to deal with unexpected damage and know exactly when to press every button they've ever pressed.

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If you're in endgame not doing a mechanic will likely go from killing you to depending on the situation wipe, just swiftcast raise if the former, nothing you can do in the latter. If you're in casual content the damage is so low it barely requires healing so it can pretty much be ignored and let pasive sources of healing deal with it, but hey, lets take the situation where you gotta heal:

-0:40 :Someone fucks up, you throw an oGCD and keep dpsing
-1:42: Someone fucks up again, another oGCD (as a lot of them can be used once per minute), maybe a GCD heal if your oGCD of preference is not ready

in a total of 1:02 mins or in other words around 25 GCDs you've used 2-3 heals, at best 1 of them GCD if you're half decent, you use your dot 2 times (30s long), what do we do in the other 22 GCDS? Spam 1 button, now since you're a blm imagine spamming Fire 1 every 22 out of 25 GCDs and that being the best case scenario because if someone doesn't fuck up then its 25 out of 25, does it sound fun or even mildly engaging?

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Originally Posted by Tarrick

Man, I sure am happy for everyone on this board whose parties always completely avoid mechanics such that they never have to heal absolutely anything but unavoidable damage and tanks. That's totally a completely realistic expectation for everyone in the entire game. We should just have our statics wipe as soon as someone touches a mechanic that they could have avoided since, well, they were supposed to avoid it, afterall. They don't need healing, they just need to do the mechanics perfectly like everyone else does. Clearly healers never have to deal with unexpected damage and know exactly when to press every button they've ever pressed.

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I just came out of a e5n run that took 8:30, we had 22 deaths and I took almost half the resses with two RDMs, we had 58 vuln stacks with up to 4 of them on the MT, 24 damage downs from clouds making love and my total amount of GCD heals was 4 and no, my co heal didn't carry the healing one bit.
Most of the time was still spend with Broil/ Ruin II.
And that's not exactly an example of people doing mechanics perfectly or no unexpected damage ever occuring.
The party can need a lot of healing without forcing either healer to GCD heal.

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Originally Posted by Tarrick

Man, I sure am happy for everyone on this board whose parties always completely avoid mechanics such that they never have to heal absolutely anything but unavoidable damage and tanks. That's totally a completely realistic expectation for everyone in the entire game. We should just have our statics wipe as soon as someone touches a mechanic that they could have avoided since, well, they were supposed to avoid it, afterall. They don't need healing, they just need to do the mechanics perfectly like everyone else does. Clearly healers never have to deal with unexpected damage and know exactly when to press every button they've ever pressed.

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Individual Responsibility. Ever job has options to make a run smoother for all people and help out everyone in the run.
If you dont use all your tools or dont even talk with your party on how they can help you with specific mechanics to make them more relaxed for you and everyone you are also a part of the problem.

And at this point we all dont do that to the best of our abilities (some do it more, some less and others dont at all and im no exception in that regard).
Depending on what fights you do, one dead person is gonna be a wipe and if you do the majority of content you can almost always slow rezz without having to worry anything because the healing requirement is non existing.

And also people should learn to stand up when they fail mechanics that wipe the party. Writing sorry and telling you derped isnt witchcraft but rather common decency and respecting other peoples time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarrick

Man, I sure am happy for everyone on this board whose parties always completely avoid mechanics such that they never have to heal absolutely anything but unavoidable damage and tanks. That's totally a completely realistic expectation for everyone in the entire game. We should just have our statics wipe as soon as someone touches a mechanic that they could have avoided since, well, they were supposed to avoid it, afterall. They don't need healing, they just need to do the mechanics perfectly like everyone else does. Clearly healers never have to deal with unexpected damage and know exactly when to press every button they've ever pressed.

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Time and time this comes up and time and time again it needs to be debunked

https://i.imgur.com/S8mt8Fj.png?1
https://i.imgur.com/6kr22hj.png?1
https://i.imgur.com/VEzxrYh.png?1

All of these are my total cast tallys from various E10S runs with my static aka the retirement home/glue factory.

One of these runs has 0 deaths and 2 damage downs (Aka a mechanic failure that likely dealt a ton of damage didn't kill the player). One has 2 deaths, 2 damage downs. One has 8 deaths, 1 damage down.

People eating avoidable damage genuinely don't need all that much healing. Casual content such as dungeons, 24 mans and normal mod raids put so little pressure on your healing kit that it's easy to keep cooldowns in your pocket for when people mess up. It's how a healer reacts to these situations that defines the time and resource cost of other peoples mistakes. React efficiently and it's genuinely pretty minimal.

Meanwhile in Savage/Extreme, it's pretty routine for splash oGCDs such as Asylum, Assize, Star etc to have people sufficiently topped for whatever's coming. People will try to accept raises after AoEs etc to facilitate this. If someone takes a raise right before an AoE, sure try and get them topped but choosing to hobble healer gameplay off the back of other peoples mistakes and low standards of play isn't acceptable in the long term.

Of course, the true irony here is that your sarcasm actually stands somewhat true.