Large quantity of gil disappeared.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Jojoya is correct, camping is optional, not mandatory. Jenova hasn't been a low pop server for years and yet I've helped several friends get a house for their FC with no camping, it just takes time. Check the ward list for vacancies periodically, click any vacant house for a few minutes then try again a few hours later or wait for another house to pop up.

Camping or not, there's some luck involved with the timer. And nobody is going to say the current system is good but the idea that camping is mandatory is wrong. Its a choice people make because they fear on losing out and because they're impatient to have it now. Being patient and persistent over time gives you just as much of a chance as camping does and a lot less stress.

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It's about increasing your chances though. You can rely on luck entirely and hope that the placard is "open" right at the time you choose to check and hope there are no housing bots active and hope that a house opens up when you're active and available.. sure. OR you can maximize your chances and camp. Both options though are circumvented by click spam bots which wouldn't be able to have an advantage in a lottery system.

So to a degree it's not MANDATORY by strict letter, but to maximize chances of getting a house, let alone a house you WANT, camping is the best chance.

So again, while the lottery solution does not, by far, solve all the housing problems, it most definitely solves a few.

The only problem the lottery potentially solves is placard clicking but it does so at the cost of increasing the potential buyers and decreasing your odds of getting a house. My view is if a system decreases the odds of you getting a house, then its not a solution to anything, its just an exacerbation of an already bad system.

But the lottery existing is a done deal now. All we can do is wait for more details and see how badly it will blow things up.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No, you don't. I know players who have recently gotten their houses without any camping or purchasing from other players.

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Not sure how do you define recently. But currently on Coeurl, every single small plot is camped especially during prime time(10-14hrs after a plot has opened, the most likely time for a plot to sell). The data is from Sadu's House Alerts discord which has tracked open plots nearly hourly for years, especially on servers like Balmung/Mateus.

I'm part of the Sadu's House Alerts Discord which helps players camp for houses on NA servers:
https://discord.gg/saChECt

We sweepers(players who do hourly sweeps to check all the wards for open plots.)

Coeurl is swept nearly every hour on some days with very few sweep gaps.

All small plots on Crystal are camped.

The massive influx of new players for all the different reasons has made camping for houses much worse across all the NA servers.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's about increasing your chances though. You can rely on luck entirely and hope that the placard is "open" right at the time you choose to check and hope there are no housing bots active and hope that a house opens up when you're active and available.. sure. OR you can maximize your chances and camp. Both options though are circumvented by click spam bots which wouldn't be able to have an advantage in a lottery system.

So to a degree it's not MANDATORY by strict letter, but to maximize chances of getting a house, let alone a house you WANT, camping is the best chance.

So again, while the lottery solution does not, by far, solve all the housing problems, it most definitely solves a few.

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It's not solving anything. It's exchanging one form of RNG for a new form of RNG that reduces a player's chances of "winning" substantially because it will increase the number of participants a hundredfold if not more.

All the lottery does is force players to stop engaging in one specific form of game activity, something they could have voluntarily chosen to do on their own (but didn't).

It's very bizarre to me that so many players think the lottery will be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Not sure how do you define recently. But currently on Coeurl, every single small plot is camped especially during prime time(10-14hrs after a plot has opened, the most likely time for a plot to sell). The data is from Sadu's House Alerts discord which has tracked open plots nearly hourly for years, especially on servers like Balmung/Mateus.

I'm part of the Sadu's House Alerts Discord which helps players camp for houses on NA servers:
https://discord.gg/saChECt

We sweepers(players who do hourly sweeps to check all the wards for open plots.)

Coeurl is swept nearly every hour on some days with very few sweep gaps.

All small plots on Crystal are camped.

The massive influx of new players for all the different reasons has made camping for houses much worse across all the NA servers.

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The players I'm think of did it back in May and June of this year. One of them was not on Coeurl, I was helping them check for plots on an Aether world with an alt. Another one managed to get their house despite 3 other players camping the plot when they showed up.

I will admit that with the recent massive influx of new players, the current situation has probably gotten worse. Camping might lower the chances for other players who are randomly checking to get a plot but it still does not remove it. It's the player's choice on which path they want to take. They've always got the option to say "no, this is not worth the time".

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not solving anything. It's exchanging one form of RNG for a new form of RNG that reduces a player's chances of "winning" substantially because it will increase the number of participants a hundredfold if not more.

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It solves problems and it does create others, never said it didn't. Yes. now housing will (possibly) be complete RNG for a plot. Eliminating clickbots and removing most inequality from the process, we shall see what other relocation changes they make.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

All the lottery does is force players to stop engaging in one specific form of game activity, something they could have voluntarily chosen to do on their own (but didn't).

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A game activity that was incredibly frustrating and wasted hours of player time for possibly no gain. Yes .. people COULD have given up and just hoped (like your solution) but like most gamers they picked the activity that would most likely result in achieving their goals. It's very easy to tell people "well dont do that then" .. it's quite another to KNOW that there is a way to increase your chances of getting what you want and NOT do it. Eliminating even the possibility of people choosing this frustrating avenue and possibly souring their experience is , in my opinion, a good choice. Many many players have expressed their displeasure that people with "no lives" and bots were far more likely to get houses then they were. Add to that the fact that housing locks a few substantial blocks of content away behind it and you have people who are now frustrated they can't do content as well.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's very bizarre to me that so many players think the lottery will be an improvement.

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If you haven't participated in camping for a house and have the perception or experience that it's something that is easy to do.. I can imagine you wouldn't see the benefit. As someone whos server has always had housing only open on ward release days and very rarely through demo-timers... I can say I would gladly take a lottery over what we have now.... Though I have hopes that someday they will make the rest of the content locked behind housing available to everyone.

The only way it would really be a scam is if a real player somehow couldn't tell the difference between a house Placard and a retainer.

I think it just highlights the problems with housing.

The reason the number of participants would increase a hundredfold is because that many players don't own, want and can afford the price of a house. The only thing stopping them right now is the discouragement of having to deal with an unhealthy bot-ridden system. Which is obviously bad design. But the demand is there and exists.

The lottery is a minor improvement because clicking a placard for 12 hours isn't healthy. But if you don't do it you have 0 chance at a house. The lottery gives you a tiny chance. So very minor improvement, that still doesn't fix the main issue at all, just a tweak to a design flaw.

However, the housing itself is in a bad state, created by the developers, because they insist on the open neighborhood system which has natural limitations to supply. There'll never be enough server space. Really they should have been developing instanced housing instead of pouring resources into the Ishgard housing district. They're just cementing the issue further, because they've invested far too much into it to just scrap it now.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The only way it would really be a scam is if a real player somehow couldn't tell the difference between a house Placard and a retainer.

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well... there are a lot of new players...

if you can click on both... maybe the retainer was... uh...dressed as a placard!

I wouldn't call this Botting, I think its unfair to tar them in the same vein as Gil bots who run MSQ to get the reward Gil. Most of them are using software that comes bundled with their Keyboard. Plus all what they're doing is taking themselves out of a unhealthy system that encourages RSI.
This system should of been updated with a lottery system years ago and even now the RSI inducing system isn't being fully scraped.

Hate the game not the Player.

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Originally Posted by Mosha

I wouldn't call this Botting, I think its unfair to tar them in the same vein as Gil bots who run MSQ to get the reward Gil. Most of them are using software that comes bundled with their Keyboard. Plus all what they're doing is taking themselves out of a unhealthy system that encourages RSI.
This system should of been updated with a lottery system years ago and even now the RSI inducing system isn't being fully scraped.

Hate the game not the Player.

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It is fair to compare it to botting since both are using various automation softwares to achieve a desired goal without being physically present. One is a lot more worse than the other, but at the end of the day the TOS would strike down both for the exact same reason:

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay.

It also doesn't matter if its a bad system or not. Console players can't even access these kinds of tools, so using them gives any PC player a giant advantage over console players.

It's good that the retainer trick is becoming more widespread. Will give a nice karmic lesson to these people for trying to cheat the system. Or at the very least, force them to stay at their PCs the entire time its running.

I think we can file this one under "self-correcting problem".

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Originally Posted by Mosha

Hate the game not the Player.

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Hate the cheaters, not the game.

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Originally Posted by RNGHatesMe

i went through chat logs and i didnt initiate any trades or anything

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strange... why would you check the chat logs to see if you placed a trade? I mean obviously you would have seen if you traded someone right?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

A game activity that was incredibly frustrating and wasted hours of player time for possibly no gain. Yes .. people COULD have given up and just hoped (like your solution) but like most gamers they picked the activity that would most likely result in achieving their goals. It's very easy to tell people "well dont do that then" .. it's quite another to KNOW that there is a way to increase your chances of getting what you want and NOT do it. Eliminating even the possibility of people choosing this frustrating avenue and possibly souring their experience is , in my opinion, a good choice. Many many players have expressed their displeasure that people with "no lives" and bots were far more likely to get houses then they were. Add to that the fact that housing locks a few substantial blocks of content away behind it and you have people who are now frustrated they can't do content as well.

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This.

A system allow much larger inclusion of player base. A system that eliminates wasting precious game time and allow players engage in other contents is a big improvement.

Lotto system is not perfect but a step forward compared to placard camping

If a cheater lose their gils it means they can't do it anymore for a while. So it gives more chances for legit players to get a plot as there is less competition. (Relocation still frees up a plot somewhere else, the minimum timer is from 30 minutes to 24 hours)

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I swear I saw this exact same post verbatim a couple of months ago. Does the autoclicker also come with a built in forum post template? That's really handy!



Imagine defending a botter. Imagine.

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If SE had done what they are doing with the Firmament years ago in the lottery system, people wouldn't use bots because trying to purchase normally wouldn't be so damn unhealthy.

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Originally Posted by Hausti

Hate the cheaters, not the game.

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I am with the guy you responded to. If you don't want people to cheat, don't make the system you've put in place literally unhealthy for people who use it fairly.

I think a GM should comb through this thread and ban every person advocating for botting.

Specially if they gonna necro the thread just to say that botting rules and they will keep on botting because they don't like the system and are so impatient that they can't wait a few months for the new one

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I think a GM should comb through this thread and ban every person advocating for botting.

Specially if they gonna necro the thread just to say that botting rules and they will keep on botting because they don't like the system and are so impatient that they can't wait a few months for the new one

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Nowhere did I say "botting rules". What I did say was that the system sucked and was absolutely unhealthy for people to do it the right way and the system needed fixing far sooner than it was. Also that I understand people using botting to get around that absolutely unhealthy system.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I am with the guy you responded to. If you don't want people to cheat, don't make the system you've put in place literally unhealthy for people who use it fairly.

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It is no more unhealthy than playing the rest of the game because all you're doing is sitting on your butt pressing buttons on a keyboard/mouse/controller for all of it.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It is no more unhealthy than playing the rest of the game because all you're doing is sitting on your butt pressing buttons on a keyboard/mouse/controller for all of it.

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Well idk if I'd go THAT far. it IS a pretty sucky camping system. But I would never advocate botting. It's taking the gaming out of gaming. Like, what's the point? Housing should be more available, and they're working on that by all accounts but, to put it simply, cheaters should never prosper.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It is no more unhealthy than playing the rest of the game because all you're doing is sitting on your butt pressing buttons on a keyboard/mouse/controller for all of it.

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It is unhealthy when to have a reasonable chance of getting a house fairly you have to camp, many times for 16-24 hours, just to have a decent possibility of getting a house, constantly clicking.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I am with the guy you responded to. If you don't want people to cheat, don't make the system you've put in place literally unhealthy for people who use it fairly.

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So what you say is that: If something sucks, like in this case the housing system, then it is completely fine to cheat and have an advantage over other players who cant cheat?
If so then i dont know what else to tell you.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Nowhere did I say "botting rules". What I did say was that the system sucked and was absolutely unhealthy for people to do it the right way and the system needed fixing far sooner than it was. Also that I understand people using botting to get around that absolutely unhealthy system.

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Stop pretending you think it's unhealthy. You're perfectly fine with people victimizing the ones doing the unhealthy behavior.

Also the lottery system is only going to be in effect for some of the houses. They'll never go full lottery because then people with vast sums of gil could just enter the lottery multiple times through proxies, and again, regular players would be shut out of housing. It's not like the lottery solution can't be exploited.

Ya know what? I'm not going to dignify this. If you cannot see why forcing someone to click a placard for hours, sometimes a full day worth of hours, to even have a chance at a house [I happened to get extraordinarily lucky to get mine on Malboro, not everyone is lucky enough to be on an unpopulated enough server to be able to walk up to the sign, click it once, and buy] is unhealthy and dangerous, I dunno what to tell you.

Also, I advocate for instanced housing but I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon, so something that at least prevents unhealthy behavior is an improvement, even if it isn't the one I would prefer.

Edit to add: I'm not "ok" with it, I just understand why they would do it. My thing is I want the system changed in such a way that unhealthy behavior is no longer encouraged.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

snip

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tl;dr "It's ok to steal because capitalism is bad"

Wouldn't that fall under an exploit of some sort (dropping a retainer selling 1m gil items to trick house placard clickers)? Seems to me it should be against the TOS.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

Wouldn't that fall under an exploit of some sort (dropping a retainer selling 1m gil items to trick house placard clickers)? Seems to me it should be against the TOS.

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It's not. Because if you click on the retainer, click on the item and then click on yes, those are 3 clicks that you decided to do. Nobody tricked you into clicking any of that.

UNLESS. You were not doing those clicks and were instead using a 3rd party program to cheat.

Which is against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

tl;dr "It's ok to steal because capitalism is bad"

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I never said that. Advocating for a change of a stupid arse system and expressing understanding of why people seek to circumvent the system is not by any means saying it is ok. What the heck does saying "Someone should not have to click a placard for twenty four hours straight just to buy a house" have to do with capitalism being stupid? Now you're just reaching.

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Originally Posted by KitKatnip

Wouldn't that fall under an exploit of some sort (dropping a retainer selling 1m gil items to trick house placard clickers)? Seems to me it should be against the TOS.

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No, it's not a glitch or a scam. Placing a retainer in front of a house you buy is a legitimate part of the game.

To buy from a retainer, you go through several windows accepting and confirming your purchase. "I was cheating and didn't realize" is not an excuse.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I never said that. Advocating for a change of a stupid arse system and expressing understanding of why people seek to circumvent the system is not by any means saying it is ok. What the heck does saying "Someone should not have to click a placard for twenty four hours straight just to buy a house" have to do with capitalism being stupid? Now you're just reaching.

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Because you can advocate for the change of a system without getting the dumb idea that you can go above it due to it being a stupid system.

"Capitalism is a stupid system, therefore I can steal."
"The store's rule of no shirt, no service is stupid, therefore I can ignore it."
"Going 25 in a school zone when I'm the only car on the road I can see is stupid, therefore I'll just ignore it and triple my speed."
"This system in a game is stupid, therefore I can automate it so I don't have to spend any time on it."

It's all rationalized the same way; someone thinking a system is dumb and then going above it. Some more extreme examples than others, but people don't get to ignore rules based on whether a system is stupid or not. Especially when an entire subset of players (PS4/PS5) Can't even ignore the rules even if they wanted to; any auto clickers directly impact their chances at even getting a house since those auto-clickers can run 24/7, meaning that auto-clicker who might not have been able to stay up to the late hour time when a house is suddenly freed, thus increasing the chance of the PS4 player getting the house, is now an active contender due to cheating. It doesn't matter if its unhealthy. It doesn't matter what a person thinks. They hit "I Agree" to the Terms of Service when they started playing, so if someone really wants a house, they can sit their butt down and manually click like everyone else.

It's a stupid system, but it's a stupid system for everyone equally. if someone wants to cheat the system and gets burned, they deserve no mercy from other players scathing them, or having their account banned for cheating.

Or SE can change the stupid system by introducing instanced housing so *no* one has to sit and click. And honestly you whining because "Oh, I'm on PS4 and can't take advantage of it" really doesn't show you in a good light, because I bet you any amount of gil you would take advantage of it if you were able. I have a house because I was lucky enough to buy one on Malboro and I make sure to log in often enough not to lose it because I want one in Ishgard.

Honestly? If I were that player who's unfortunate to see the plot I'm after suddenly gets occupied by a relocator, of course I'd be sad. But here's the take: they're still a real player vs that autoclicker/botter who's not present.

I'd rather see the plot getting occupied by legit player who's actually playing and present than getting nabbed by the violators. If they can 'scam'(for the lack of better word) the hell out of those autoclicker/botters, even better.

How far can these goalposts move lmao

Anyone that does that should be instantly banned. Since your taking advantage of a bug or exploit.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Anyone that does that should be instantly banned. Since your taking advantage of a bug or exploit.

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Nope.

Don't want to buy coke for one million gil each? Simple, don't click on the retainer and confirm that you do indeed want to buy coke for 1 million gil each.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It is no more unhealthy than playing the rest of the game because all you're doing is sitting on your butt pressing buttons on a keyboard/mouse/controller for all of it.

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It's their choice to participate in unhealthy activity in order to play the game. Looking at that guy's recent posts in this thread they just seem to be one of those people that spend a majority of their time trying to find a way to blame someone or something else for their self imposed problems.

I bought my original house in Lavender Beds with no stress at all. I just checked wards via aethernet periodically and when I saw one vacated I purchased it. And it happened to be fairly close to a market board. When the announcement was made that Shirogane was opening I made arrangements to make sure I was able to log on as soon as that maintenance ended and relocated my home there with no other players competing with me to click on the placard.

The rest of this thread seems to have shifted to people condoning or admitting to using illegal 3rd party programs then complaining when said 3rd party programs give their gil to people that know said programs are being used and know how to trick them. To me that just sounds like a situation similar to a scammer getting scammed or those ppl using bots to attempt buying PS5's online that ended up buying empty boxes because ppl posted listings specifically to trick the bot programs. If you decide to try and cheat the system because you don't like the system for whatever reason, you have willingly accepted responsibility and ownership of whatever happens due to that activity.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Or SE can change the stupid system by introducing instanced housing so *no* one has to sit and click. And honestly you whining because "Oh, I'm on PS4 and can't take advantage of it" really doesn't show you in a good light, because I bet you any amount of gil you would take advantage of it if you were able.

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I like how you assume I'm PS4 or even want a house, you might want to focus on the points than skirting towards ad-hominem territory. I can recognize the fallacious logic behind people trying to break a rule because they think its stupid by using examples to illustrate how bad that logic is when applied to other situations, along with recognizing the impact it has not only on the cheater in the forms of account bans or idiot taxes, but also in the impact it creates for other players who are at an absolute disadvantage, without being one of said affected people.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

It's their choice to participate in unhealthy activity in order to play the game. Looking at that guy's recent posts in this thread they just seem to be one of those people that spend a majority of their time trying to find a way to blame someone or something else for their self imposed problems.

I bought my original house in Lavender Beds with no stress at all. I just checked wards via aethernet periodically and when I saw one vacated I purchased it. And it happened to be fairly close to a market board. When the announcement was made that Shirogane was opening I made arrangements to make sure I was able to log on as soon as that maintenance ended and relocated my home there with no other players competing with me to click on the placard.

The rest of this thread seems to have shifted to people condoning or admitting to using illegal 3rd party programs then complaining when said 3rd party programs give their gil to people that know said programs are being used and know how to trick them. To me that just sounds like a situation similar to a scammer getting scammed or those ppl using bots to attempt buying PS5's online that ended up buying empty boxes because ppl posted listings specifically to trick the bot programs. If you decide to try and cheat the system because you don't like the system for whatever reason, you have willingly accepted responsibility and ownership of whatever happens due to that activity.

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I do not condone the use of bots. There is a difference between understanding why people resort to such things and condoning their use. My point is that the system should be changed so there is no need to participate in unhealthy activity in order to obtain a house. They changed the Absolute Virtue fight in XI when they discovered people were staying awake for 48 hours at a time to beat it, there's no reason they can't fix this.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I do not condone the use of bots. There is a difference between understanding why people resort to such things and condoning their use. My point is that the system should be changed so there is no need to participate in unhealthy activity in order to obtain a house. They changed the Absolute Virtue fight in XI when they discovered people were staying awake for 48 hours at a time to beat it, there's no reason they can't fix this.

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So where have you been the last 7 months since SE announced that many wards will be switched to a lottery system in Endwalker so players who don't like the placard/timer system can simply purchase a ticket for a chance to get a house? You won't need to spam-click a placard anymore if you don't want to (it will still be there for those who don't mind in separate wards). You're still going to have to complete against all the other players who want one but can't get one because there won't be enough to go around.

We as players need to stop letting SE off the hook when it comes to correcting the real problem - the supply. That will never be solved until SE can accept that wards might be a nice idea but they do not work in a MMO with an expanding player base and choose to start putting housing development resources into an enhanced instanced system instead.

It was fun a month ago to log back into RIFT for the first time in 4 years to find all my Dimensions still there mostly as I left them (evidently the way a few items work had changed, which altered the appearance of a few slightly). Thought I had only had 11 active Dimensions. Turns out I had 13. One of them even had more likes than I remember it having at the time I stopped playing so I know that other players had continued to visit it during my absence. I had a full town in one Dimension, a recreation of Stormwind Park District in another, a massive water slide and picnic area in a third, etc.

13 housing locations for a single player on a single account because they are instanced. They only consume server resources when a player enters so they are a lot more efficient in that respect. None of those Dimensions I have prevented other players from getting their own Dimensions. I haven't even mentioned that RIFT allows placement and rotation of items on every axis not to mention items can be resized.

It's a real shame that a rather mediocre game like RIFT (wasn't really a bad game, it just wasn't good) allows that for their players when SE won't. Not can't but won't. It is a design decision they made and it's failing to serve the player base adequately.