The clones of Emet.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Technically by killing Emet-Selch and Elidibus WoL also did a genocide.

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A single act of killing does not a murder nor a genocide make.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Technically by killing Emet-Selch and Elidibus WoL also did a genocide.

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As I said many time. Emet is not dead, He took a curtain call and retired. Elidibus is binded in the Crystal Tower. What does that mean, no idea but it's not the same that happened to Lahabrea. Lost as Elidibus was, I don't think Emet would give us the means to totally destroy him.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What makes you say this? The only reason we won against him in the first place in 5.3 was due to another unsundered helping us. We had no such thing when we were fighting him in SB. He could’ve simply used that rift move again and it would’ve been game over.

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Because in the hypothetical he doesn't ever encounter Catboi Sage Deluxe, thus he can steal no spirit vessel with the full memory knowledge of the Calling spell, as he did in 5.3. As was required for him to empower himself to the level he needed in order to combat us as he did in the Seat of Sacrifice. Note that he also doesn't see us by any means fighting Emet-selch in said hypothetical, and therefore has no measuring stick with which to know the true power that he requires to potentially best the WoL.

Don't be daft, it doesn't suit you.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Because in the hypothetical he doesn't ever encounter Catboi Sage Deluxe, thus he can steal no spirit vessel with the full memory knowledge of the Calling spell, as he did in 5.3. As was required for him to empower himself to the level he needed in order to combat us as he did in the Seat of Sacrifice. Note that he also doesn't see us by any means fighting Emet-selch in said hypothetical, and therefore has no measuring stick with which to know the true power that he requires to potentially best the WoL.

Don't be daft, it doesn't suit you.

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Doesn't need any of it. Just throw you into the rify and without Emet's help, you'll can't get back even if you break free.

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Originally Posted by Wiz33

Doesn't need any of it. Just throw you into the rify and without Emet's help, you'll can't get back even if you break free.

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He's not strong enough to do that without surging his powers with the WoLs he summons. If he was, he would have done it ages ago or when he fought us as Ardbert in Amaurot.

I feel like the main reason weaponized teleportation isn't used more often in media in general is because it's genuinely overpowered unless the victim specifically has the means to prevent it or get out of whatever mess they're warped into...assuming it's not immediately lethal.

We regularly see the Ascians teleporting themselves or others around so I don't see much actually preventing them from weaponizing it in a more low-key manner like...say, teleporting their enemies off cliffs or into walls (As E7S would gleefully do if you weren't paying attention).

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Because in the hypothetical he doesn't ever encounter Catboi Sage Deluxe, thus he can steal no spirit vessel with the full memory knowledge of the Calling spell, as he did in 5.3. As was required for him to empower himself to the level he needed in order to combat us as he did in the Seat of Sacrifice. Note that he also doesn't see us by any means fighting Emet-selch in said hypothetical, and therefore has no measuring stick with which to know the true power that he requires to potentially best the WoL.

Don't be daft, it doesn't suit you.

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Calling me daft lmao. Ironic. You realize he’s a primal yes? He could easily just use garlean reverence and gain power from that. It’s common sense. It’s just a major plot hole in the story. We had no auracite on us in that instance either, so again, we’d have no way of slaying him and he has the advantage of both being unsundered and being able to gain power from prayer.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Calling me daft lmao. Ironic. You realize he’s a primal yes? He could easily just use garlean reverence and gain power from that. It’s common sense. It’s just a major plot hole in the story. We had no auracite on us in that instance either, so again, we’d have no way of slaying him and he has the advantage of both being unsundered and being able to gain power from prayer.

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We don't need white auracite to kill an Ascian, we basically just need white auracite to buy time to line up a method to actually kill them. Otherwise they just teleport out.

So, presuming we had to fight Elidibus without the situation of the Crystal Tower on the First... we feasibly could have, it just requires getting resourceful. The things that have killed an Ascian so far, in order of when we learn about who got killed by it...

• Ancient magical staff (Nabriales)
• Dragon's Eye (Igeyorhm)
• Different Dragon's Eye, this time set on 'suck' (Lahabrea)
• Getting dunked in the Lifestream (Emmerololth)
• Blade of light made out of an apocalypse's worth of aether (Emet-Selch)
• Getting shoved in a magical solar battery (Elidibus)
• Normal blade of light (Loghrif)
• Normal blade of light, and then... I think just violence and relationship drama? The cutscene gets too metaphorical to tell (Mitron)

The only one that was outright planned and premeditated was Lahabrea, and not even by us!

Historically, killing Ascians has never been a matter of actual planning and preparation, and more a matter of being very clever and resourceful. If we didn't have the Crystal Tower, we'd just have to find another way to kill the guy, and given we didn't need to, we don't know what else was available.

And we probably won't find out! Remember that Fandaniel's only making his plan work because no greater Ascians are stopping him; any hypothetical alternative Elidibus throwdown would probably take place in/around Garlemald, but it would be a very different Garlemald to the one we'll explore in Endwalker.

Maybe in that alternate version, we'd have been able to sic Queen Gunnhildr or the Diamond Weapon on him, and solved it that way.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Calling me daft lmao. Ironic. You realize he’s a primal yes? He could easily just use garlean reverence and gain power from that. It’s common sense. It’s just a major plot hole in the story. We had no auracite on us in that instance either, so again, we’d have no way of slaying him and he has the advantage of both being unsundered and being able to gain power from prayer.

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As I understand it, when an Ascian in-the-flesh dies, they turn into Aether and are able to reform instead of dissolving into the lifestream. Like a cloud of nano-particles that can recombine later.

The purpose of the White Auracite is to hoover that Aether into a single spot so the aether itself can be blasted back into the lifestream with a huge amount of Aether. So as long as we can target their aetheric form with concentrated aether, we can dissolve them. Usually we just see it as a cloud of sorts, but it could also form something much bigger like Hades' "True form" once the body is shed.

So, while I'm confident Nabriales, Igeyorhm and Emet-Selch are destroyed, I'm not so confident on some of the others.

Lahabrea specifically was hoovered by the eye, but the eye itself was transmuted into Shinryu. Once Shinryu was destroyed, I'm not sure what happens to that aether- the body is destroyed, but the actual Aether...what happens to it? Are the "Lahabrea" nanoparticles released and able to recombine?

We also don't know if Elidibus is dead, as he was merely sucked into the Crystal Tower.

Additionally, we are not 100% sure that they even actually are dead-dead once they rejoin the lifestream. No ascian has ever been killed until this specific era, so we assume they are dead because we haven't heard from them, but for all we know they might need a larger amount of time to reform.

That said, this is a game, so we can and should assume they are dead because it's better story telling- but there is possible leeway to retcon their death.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Lahabrea specifically was hoovered by the eye, but the eye itself was transmuted into Shinryu. Once Shinryu was destroyed, I'm not sure what happens to that aether- the body is destroyed, but the actual Aether...what happens to it? Are the "Lahabrea" nanoparticles released and able to recombine?

We also don't know if Elidibus is dead, as he was merely sucked into the Crystal Tower.

Additionally, we are not 100% sure that they even actually are dead-dead once they rejoin the lifestream. No ascian has ever been killed until this specific era, so we assume they are dead because we haven't heard from them, but for all we know they might need a larger amount of time to reform.

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Okay, so in order:

Remember that the eye didn't just power Shinryu; before that, it also powered Nidhogg-Estinien, and before that, the Knights Twelve. After Shinryu is destroyed, both eyes are then destroyed by Estinien-Estinien. We then later see him tapping into the power of Nidhogg, although it's nebulous as to how. So Lahabrea got sucked into a battery that was then tapped into for two separate huge efforts, and then was either totally destroyed or is still being tapped into somehow. I think it's unlikely that Lahabrea remained intact for all too long there.

For Elidibus... well, we hit a similar problem as with Lahabrea before factoring in the consumptions. Like Lahabrea, he's in a battery; there's actually an unresolved question there as to whether or not a soul absorbed in that context is even intact, or if it's basically just converted into raw, order-irrelevant energy. Electricity generated from solar power doesn't remember it came from the sun; we don't know if the same logic applies to souls sucked into aether batteries. But I assume we'll be able to ask Lahabrea in a few months.

And we actually do know what happens when an Ascian rejoins the lifestream, because remember: Eden. Loghrif's soul was in the First's lifestream for... eighty-some years, let's say, since she died a hundred years ago in the First's timeline and Gaia is somewhere in her mid-to-late teens now. However, when she returned, it was without memories; Mitron went on to mess with her brain even further, but the scene right after E12 makes it clear that they reincarnate without memories anyway, and they generally seem to expect Mitron will get spat back out, sans memories, sometime after Gaia has passed.

I would actually think that the only Ascian incapable of reincarnating, at least in the natural process, is Emmerololth; being ripped apart by the Lifestream itself, she's unlikely to get put back together by it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Calling me daft lmao. Ironic. You realize he’s a primal yes? He could easily just use garlean reverence and gain power from that. It’s common sense. It’s just a major plot hole in the story. We had no auracite on us in that instance either, so again, we’d have no way of slaying him and he has the advantage of both being unsundered and being able to gain power from prayer.

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You realize that in order to become the primal that he is, he has to use WoLs, right? What good are tempered Garleans if they can't even enrich their devotion with their aether(not too mention not having the requisite desire to save the world)? I mean, I suppose he could just straight up consume them, but that's a hefty reduction in manpower that would turn the rest of the Empire even more against itself than it already was. Talk about a conflict of interest.

Also, in the hypothetical, since there's no Calling or at least, no Emet-selch, we still get a chunk of white Auracite from Urianger which is still ready for use. If we go as far as no Calling, there's no cutoff from the Scions' normal resource avenues, so it's even easier to believe that we'd be armed and ready with one.

No plot hole as far as I can tell. Just a weaker, more easily offed version of Elidibus.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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All a valid interpretation, but it’s not necessarily set fact.

Like electricity, it’s pretty clear Aether does not become lost upon use, it just merely changes form.

Rather than just becoming converted to kinetic energy or heat, generic aether rejoins the life stream to be reformed into new life.

The big question mark for me is if there is a difference between generic aether and Ascian aether, especially since their aether specifically can stay together to be reborn. It stands to reason that even Lahabrea’s released aether could reconstitute given enough time.

The only certainty I can gather is that the unsundered have not been slain before this point, so even if they can return, they are unaware of it.

Were this real world, as a scion or WoL I would push to research this heavily, but again as a game…probably we can trust they are dead until the story needs it to be otherwise. Especially given Emet and Elidabus’s fair well moments.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

All a valid interpretation, but it’s not necessarily set fact.

Like electricity, it’s pretty clear Aether does not become lost upon use, it just merely changes form.

Rather than just becoming converted to kinetic energy or heat, generic aether rejoins the life stream to be reformed into new life.

The big question mark for me is if there is a difference between generic aether and Ascian aether, especially since their aether specifically can stay together to be reborn. It stands to reason that even Lahabrea’s released aether could reconstitute given enough time.

The only certainty I can gather is that the unsundered have not been slain before this point, so even if they can return, they are unaware of it.

Were this real world, as a scion or WoL I would push to research this heavily, but again as a game…probably we can trust they are dead until the story needs it to be otherwise. Especially given Emet and Elidabus’s fair well moments.

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I think the implication was that while they're whole and sentient, they can avoid being sent to the lifestream and are free to go and possess another random person when something happens to them. The lore book stated that was due to a "crystal of darkness" which is probably just their connection with Zodiark. In order to get rid of them permanently, they need to have their aether pinned down so they can't leave, and then get blasted with a high dose of aether. I think at that point, they have no conscious ability to maintain their form and their consciousness gets scattered into the ambient aether/lifestream of the world.

Emet-Selch/Hades was a master of the Underworld/Lifestream when he was alive so that could explain his shenanigans during the fight with Elidibus. But he also seemed to be content to help us instead of moving the ascian plan forward and went quietly into the night. That being said, he did voice the Endwalker trailer so I wonder if there will be more of him or if his narration was just supposed to be a parallel to his speech to us in Amaurot about the Final Days.

Emet-Sech as Solus was a dude who had ankhs all over his clothing (and costumes in this game are very carefully designed). We watched his shoes walk around creepily and inexplicably in cutscenes through the whole expansion. I haven't noticed any other characters besides Zenos and Gaia being shown walking as much as he did. Hades could just be the endwalker! I don't think he will but the "deader than dead" stuff is very confusing.

I doubt very much he meant for us to go ask Venat what happened and take her word for it so we could "remember." He could still be an antagonist even after writing such a beautiful poem! He definitely didn't want us to have time travel so we could go back and see how he was trying to alter/curate the past (which is what the Crystal Exarch believed even before Amaurot). And he still seems like he needs to repent somehow, especially with Zenos.

I just love this character and cannot wait for him to reappear in some way, like as a psychopomp. Or maybe he can retire on the island and farm popotoes at our reformed-ancient-cultist recovery communes. Just love him. Every line of dialogue from him, the Exarch, Thancred, and Yshtola in Shadowbringers was especially lovely.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I think the implication was that while they're whole and sentient, they can avoid being sent to the lifestream and are free to go and possess another random person when something happens to them. The lore book stated that was due to a "crystal of darkness" which is probably just their connection with Zodiark. In order to get rid of them permanently, they need to have their aether pinned down so they can't leave, and then get blasted with a high dose of aether. I think at that point, they have no conscious ability to maintain their form and their consciousness gets scattered into the ambient aether/lifestream of the world.

Emet-Selch/Hades was a master of the Underworld/Lifestream when he was alive so that could explain his shenanigans during the fight with Elidibus. But he also seemed to be content to help us instead of moving the ascian plan forward and went quietly into the night. That being said, he did voice the Endwalker trailer so I wonder if there will be more of him or if his narration was just supposed to be a parallel to his speech to us in Amaurot about the Final Days.

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No, we actually saw the crystals of darkness, more than once. Immediately, I remember that Igeyorhm called hers up and was about to use it before we White Auracite'd her and then lasered her with one of the Eyes of Nidhogg.

They are a literal, physical thing, we're just thorough enough to rarely see them.

Well, Guess the Launch trailer and comments in the live letter pretty much confirmed that Emet is alive and kicking. I'm even going to go out and say he's going to have a major impact in the Endwalker story.

Just because he's seemingly going to be the one narrating the zone intros and such this time around doesn't necessarily mean he's still alive.

They may simply be the thoughts he had about those places before he was destroyed, or even just mostly unrelated musings that happen to be applicable to them.

He's going to speak to us about Ancient times relating to the present zones through the Azem stone that he created. Doi

I'm still banking on him being present in flashbacks or recordings. They'd be stupid not to use the big breakout sadboy somehow, but I also very much doubt they'd undo such a big, climactic death scene.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm still banking on him being present in flashbacks or recordings. They'd be stupid not to use the big breakout sadboy somehow, but I also very much doubt they'd undo such a big, climactic death scene.

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I think he's dead and dusted, but I mean it wouldn't be the first time they went back on a perfect death scene. *waves in the general area of our current antagonist*

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Originally Posted by GoldStarz

I think he's dead and dusted, but I mean it wouldn't be the first time they went back on a perfect death scene. *waves in the general area of our current antagonist*

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Yeeeeah, I realized how foolish that sounds after I wrote it.

Like, at this point I no longer believe any hero deaths, and I'm suspect of the villain deaths. Although I'm instead from the angle of 'desperately hoping they all stay dead, oh god, I can't tolerate another expansion of Emet'.

DId any of you watch the part of the live letter where Yoshi P recapped the launch trailer? He basically said that yes, it's Emet but he can't talk about it since it's a secret. What's so secret if it's just a voice/recording from the past? And if you listen carefully, he's not just doing area intro or background. He's commenting on current events both here and in the previous trailer.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Although I'm instead from the angle of 'desperately hoping they all stay dead, oh god, I can't tolerate another expansion of Emet'.

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...and yet there's a pretty sizable portion of players, myself included, who wish to see more of the Ancients and Ascians during the finale of their story.

I think it's important to remember that this is both a Final Fantasy game and an MMO. Both are designed to appeal to broad audience and wide variety of tastes. We've also seen it framed by the writers across various interviews that they do not see things as simple when it comes to reducing characters to 'heroes' and 'villains'. That, in itself, is very much a matter of perspective.

Of course, individuals are free to like or dislike specific characters and factions if they so wish. I just think there's still enough important questions to be answered and insight to be shown in regards to the Emet/Azem/Hythlodaeus dynamic for any of those characters to suddenly be dropped.

We don't yet know in what capacity Emet is even appearing in as of yet. It could be an illusion, a recorded message, an Echo flashback...or it could be him in the flesh. Yet if he does come back, out of all characters I think the one with strong ties to the underworld makes the most sense for a grand return. Even if it's only a temporary one.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We've also seen it framed by the writers across various interviews that they do not see things as simple when it comes to reducing characters to 'heroes' and 'villains'. That, in itself, is very much a matter of perspective.

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They may have said that in the interviews, and the antagonists are indeed more nuanced and sympathetic, but the writers still had Ardbert straight up calling us "hero" in Shadowbringers. A part of the theme with him was also about "what is a hero?". You can't put this down as a language thing either because the title of the expansion was "Jet-black Villains" in Japanese.

I don't think I'd use those terms if you're trying to make a specific point.

If the dictionary says that a villain is "a character in a story or play who opposes the hero" and our character is called a hero in the same story where there's a character who's opposing us, then the opposing character is the villain. He may not be a mustache-twirling villain, but he's a villain regardless.


I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him.

Delita Heiral is my all time favorite character in Final Fantasy as a whole, but I am under no delusions that he isn't a bad, bad man. Exactly like Emet-Selch, he's a tragic villain, but still a villain nonetheless and I wouldn't defend him if people point out all of the death he's caused, despite the fact that he had a point and in his own mind, he's right.

Cue another person who agreed that the VA for Emet and the writing was stellar- but who could not stand his character, hated his viewpoints (which I give them props for, that I actively emotionally responded to him as an antagonist instead of being bored of Zenos and ready to move on from that character even before the first instanced fight), never softened to him, and was so very delighted when he died. My biggest fear coming into Endwalker story-wise, aside from Zenos, was having Emet narrate the world zones, as I knew that would instantly and irrevocably lessen my enjoyment of the entire 6.0 story. One flashback or dungeon or key scene I was prepared for, but not something/someone constant to sour everything. If the Solus clones come back into the story in any function, I hope it's small and brief (the idea of them being fed to power Anima does appeal)

Reminder: the main cast is at various points referred to as villains by Vauthry, much as the Warriors of Darkness are seen as villains in the story of the First... and it is common to refer to one another as "sinner". They were indeed making a point, repeated in numerous interviews - that whether one is a villain or a hero is down to whose side you are on and from which side the term is emanating, and that it can thus be viewed both ways as a matter of perspective. This doesn't render the terms meaningless, so much as context-dependent. The title of the game in Japanese therefore does nothing to change that and is part of that perspective shift given the role of the protagonists on the First and how their opponents viewed them.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him.

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How’s it creepy for people to have admiration or like an antagonist? I could say the same for people who do the same for some of the protagonists. Especially some of the underage ones…. Irregardless though they’ve stated numerous times the story isn’t black and white and heroes/villains depends on perspective. It’s also why yoshi p has made sure to use the term antagonists and not villain for the ascians.

Is it really that hard to just...not gatekeep? Like not point out he is a villain (like you said).

Like if roleplayers and artists want to interpret a character in some way...what harm can it do to portray them in a light that doesn't match up to your reading 100%?

This has always seemed like more of a dunk on the roleplayers/writers/drawers than an actual problem with the character to me. If you are commenting on an official forum you feel some duty to share the space with others, surely, in a way that is hopefully enriching.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How’s it creepy for people to have admiration or like an antagonist? I could say the same for people who do the same for some of the protagonists. Especially some of the underage ones…. Irregardless though they’ve stated numerous times the story isn’t black and white and heroes/villains depends on perspective. It’s also why yoshi p has made sure to use the term antagonists and not villain for the ascians.

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I didn't say that it's wrong to have admiration in them. I said that the level of it is creepy. Like exactly to your point, one can admire Alisae, but if someone admires her too much, it's creepy because she's underage. To me, I find it odd that people can get completely obsessed over charismatic people who commit genocide for selfish reasons.

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

The story may not be as black and white as other fantasy stories, but it doesn't change the fact the character has done bad things, and will continue to do so unless stopped. To gloss over that because he gave you the feels is just weird.

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Originally Posted by vormela

Is it really that hard to just...not gatekeep? Like not point out he is a villain (like you said).

Like if roleplayers and artists want to interpret a character in some way...what harm can it do to portray them in a light that doesn't match up to your reading 100%?

This has always seemed like more of a dunk on the roleplayers/writers/drawers than an actual problem with the character to me. If you are commenting on an official forum you feel some duty to share the space with others, surely, in a way that is hopefully enriching.

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How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I didn't say that it's wrong to have admiration in them. I said that the level of it is creepy. Like exactly to your point, one can admire Alisae, but if someone admires her too much, it's creepy because she's underage. To me, I find it odd that people can get completely obsessed over charismatic people who commit genocide for selfish reasons.

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

The story may not be as black and white as other fantasy stories, but it doesn't change the fact the character has done bad things, and will continue to do so unless stopped. To gloss over that because he gave you the feels is just weird.




How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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I'm not saying Emet Selch is a saint. I'm sure he was a "evil" Ascian all set on continuing his work for the rejoining upon his return. What I'm saying is that once he meet us and saw that we have a fragment of Azem's soul and have another fragment walking beside us. He was finally open to the idea that we might be a worthy successor to their legacy and an alternative to the rejoining. He then proceed to test our worthiness all through ShB which resulted in us possessing 2 fragments of Azem's soul and the official holder of Azem's office as part of the 14. While Emet probably doesn't see all but he's basically a god compare to us with his thousands of thousands of years of experience among us, establishing the Allagan Empire and all his experience as a member of the convocation of 14. Just look at his body posture all through ShB until the end of 5.0 and see how it changed when you "defeated" him. You have to look past what he said and look at what he did as he's an arrogant SOB that thought everyone is beneath him.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

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There’s far more too his and the ascians’ story than just the mass murdering part. You and others seem to simplify their entire storyline and only focus on the mass murder to fit some strange narrative. People who agree with him do it because of the overall story of rejoining the worlds to how they use to be and fixing the unstable world. I can say Hydaelyn has committed mass murder and genocide too, in sundering people and making them go from being immune to illness and living thousands upon thousands of years, to being very vulnerable to illness and only living 100 years if they’re lucky. I can argue every single death from illness and age is due to her and in that case she’s committed far more murder and genocide than they have lmao.

At the end of the day we're talking about fictional characters in a make believe setting. None of it is real. They're just pixels on a screen/words in a story. I don't see much point in implying other people are somehow wrong for liking or disliking specific characters or factions in a game designed for mass appeal and sold in many different countries.

The game has a global audience and players come from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and life experiences. As a result, it strikes me as counter productive to assume that everybody needs to think, feel and react a certain way.

Nobody is a bad person because they don't start screaming and smacking their head against their keyboard every time the supposed 'BAD MAN' or 'BAD WOMAN' does something that they dislike. Many of us just want an entertaining story with interesting characters and we're confident enough in our morality that we don't need it to be constantly reinforced at each and every turn.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

There’s far more too his and the ascians’ story than just the mass murdering part. You and others seem to simplify their entire storyline and only focus on the mass murder to fit some strange narrative. People who agree with him do it because of the overall story of rejoining the worlds to how they use to be and fixing the unstable world. I can say Hydaelyn has committed mass murder and genocide too, in sundering people and making them go from being immune to illness and living thousands upon thousands of years, to being very vulnerable to illness and only living 100 years if they’re lucky. I can argue every single death from illness and age is due to her and in that case she’s committed far more murder and genocide than they have lmao.

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Dude. What strange narrative?

The story from the very beginning of ARR, and all throughout Shadowbringers was to stop calamities. Calamaties being things where millions of people on both the Source and the target world die. Our character and all of our friends happen to live on the Source and would die if something happened to it. We're told at the beginning of the game that what happened 5 years ago was a calamity, and there are bad guys out there that want to do it again. That's the entire plot, condensed. How is pointing out that the sad guys who have killed the world 7 times are bad a "strange narrative" when the fact that they have done so is central to the story?

If the Ascians weren't going around causing trouble and trying to blow up the world for the 8th time, we'd have 0 reason to fight them and there would be no plot.

You could say that the Sundering was a mass murder since it resulted in the loss of identity of everyone alive at the time, but you lost me at illnesses=Hydaelyn genocide.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Dude. What strange narrative?

The story from the very beginning of ARR, and all throughout Shadowbringers was to stop calamities. Calamaties being things where millions of people on both the Source and the target world die. Our character and all of our friends happen to live on the Source and would die if something happened to it. We're told at the beginning of the game that what happened 5 years ago was a calamity, and there are bad guys out there that want to do it again. That's the entire plot, condensed. How is pointing out that the sad guys who have killed the world 7 times are bad a "strange narrative" when the fact that they have done so is central to the story?

If the Ascians weren't going around causing trouble and trying to blow up the world for the 8th time, we'd have 0 reason to fight them and there would be no plot.

You could say that the Sundering was a mass murder since it resulted in the loss of identity of everyone alive at the time, but you lost me at illnesses=Hydaelyn genocide.

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Right so they’re in the wrong for “sacrificing” people to get what they want. Yet Ironworks agreed to do the same thing, willing to sacrifice their entire timeline and universe to…get what they wanted. Yet they’re seen as the heroes, funny double standard that. How did i lose you? Did you read what i said? Illness only became a thing because of Hydaelyn. The sundered folk are susceptible to it, the ancients hardly knew about such things as illness, this is reflected in Emet’s short story. Death by illness=deaths hydaelyn caused by creating the sundered.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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I was referring to:

"I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him."

Does it matter if it's creepy to someone? People here need to stop with the gatekeeping if you want anyone to comment at all. It is like running into a brick wall to post anything here as a nonestablished lore nerd who just wants to read and talk about free kupo nuts and crinoid-laden voidy architecture and opalized fish fossils in The Tempest and Milton poem references. If someone draws someone with no pants on why is that harmful.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Right so they’re in the wrong for “sacrificing” people to get what they want. Yet Ironworks agreed to do the same thing, willing to sacrifice their entire timeline and universe to…get what they wanted. Yet they’re seen as the heroes, funny double standard that. How did i lose you? Did you read what i said? Illness only became a thing because of Hydaelyn. The sundered folk are susceptible to it, the ancients hardly knew about such things as illness, this is reflected in Emet’s short story. Death by illness=deaths hydaelyn caused by creating the sundered.

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I never said the Ascians are wrong for the sacrifices. I never said that the first summonings of Zodiark were bad. On the contrary, they were good things and the people who gave their lives volunteered. Where I say "wait a minute" is when a primal says "now give me all of the aether from the life of the newly created world and I'll totally convert that into all your friends and family that voluntarily sacrificed themselves to the cause and then disappear".

We also don't know that illness didn't exist out in the world outside of Amaurot back then. We don't know a lot about the world outside Amaurot in the ancient days. We know there were farmers though, and I'm less inclined to believe that the grape farmers on a random volcanic island are immortal godlike beings.

And if you read the other Tales as much as you read the Emet-Selch ones, you'd know that the Ironworks didn't sacrifice their timeline. Their world didn't get deleted when they sent the Crystal Tower out into time, to another world. It still exists as a separate timeline where the 8th calamity happened and everything sucks. All they did was make it so that time split between one line where there was nothing that could prevent what happened, to one where there was and we won so the events that led to their timeline won't happen in ours. The only potential sacrificing that may happen is if FFXIV is like FFXI and Atomos is out there eating extra timelines. The story ends with Midgardsormr protecting the Ironworks as the engineers lead the world into a new Astral Era.

(btw thank you for these replies)
Exactly right in that the story of FFXIV has been very consistent and clear on which side are the protagonists and which are antagonists- and even when giving explanations and more nuance to the motivations of the antagonists or in some cases enabling a change of heart in them so that they join or align with the protagonists side (though I'd argue that Emet until after we defeat him at the Dying Gasp never really did- and his 'prove yourself worthy of my standards to be worth anything, even remembering', is exactly why I found him repulsive as a character and also ties into the flip-side of fantasy's Chosen One narratives that doesn't make them personally fun entertainment anymore). Whether or not we end up fighting Hydaelyn as well as Zodiark doesn't change the fact that the protagonist is aligned with the motivations to protect the 'Sundered' worlds and life and will chose the path that best fulfills that goal, and we'd only fight Hydaelyn if we find a third option that fulfills Venat's factions goals better. There's no 'Dark Sider' option this late in the game, nor was XIV ever going to be that.

As for getting back to the topic of Emet clones, I'd worry introducing a clone!Solus would lead to a rehash of Gaia and Ryne stepping out from the shadow of their past lives and becoming their own people. Though it could be mindless clone mobs to fight as dungeon trash like Syrcus Tower's Doga and Unei clone trash mobs. Though now that I think about it, having a clone that knows it is Solus and has nothing of Emet's personality or desires and thus none of the Minfilia/Ryne conflict would be fun.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

As for getting back to the topic of Emet clones, I'd worry introducing a clone!Solus would lead to a rehash of Gaia and Ryne stepping out from the shadow of their past lives and becoming their own people. Though it could be mindless clone mobs to fight as dungeon trash like Syrcus Tower's Doga and Unei clone trash mobs. Though now that I think about it, having a clone that knows it is Solus and has nothing of Emet's personality or desires and thus none of the Minfilia/Ryne conflict would be fun.

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Something I realized while explaining the whole Emet thing to someone on Reddit: We don't know when Emet-Selch took over Solus' body and life. It was a while ago, sure, he's the one that kickstarted the Garlean Empire. But did he possess a young man who was in prime position to seize control? Did he possess an adult already in a position of power, and took a sharp right turn to fascism with it? Did he possess a literal child and play the part of a prodigy?

In the game we've currently been given it doesn't actually matter, because we've only ever dealt with Solus and Emet-Selch as 'the (previous) Emperor', the logistics of his rise to power just don't matter. ...but if we're dealing with an Emet-less Solus clone, would they perhaps have the mind of Solus from the period just before Emet took control?

If an 'Emet' clone was brought in as an actual character, my dream would be for it to be Solus - and Solus who is horrified and disgusted at the abomination that became of his Garlemald, the destruction not just of the land and people but also the wiping out of their native religion and culture and government -everything that he would have been fighting for- all by a malicious imposter using his name. And then have him ally with the Populares/fight against Zenos and Fandaniel.

I'm not sure if this is going to show, but I have recreated Emet as a bunny boi

https://ibb.co/82F6Tjk