I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The insinuation was that Thordan turned him into aether which he then consumed to sustain his Primal 'Knights of the Round' form (ironically just like how Leviathan did the same thing to the Sahagin Elder whom Elidibus uplifted with the Echo) - Thordan outright states that, that souls are "just aether, regardless if they're mortal or Ascian" (paraphrased), suggesting Lahabrea was now dead and gone permenantly, burned up like so much fuel.

Elidibus's comments cemented that even further stating "I alone remain" ( of the Unsundered) in the stinger of ShB. So there is a lot of questions as to the new raid coming in EW showing Lahabrea's glyph... but... given what Pandemonium was in past FF games (and it's etymology in mythology), it pretty much underlines that "death is manflu for Ascians". ;)

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Okay but i think what people are forgetting here is the ascians only feel and sense each other through their link through zodiark. If perchance these acts of strong aether were capable of untempering them or severing that link then it stands to reason why they wouldn’t be able to feel them anymore. Considering the writers themselves neither confirmed nor denied it leaves it pretty open. The only thing they’ve said is that the eye acted “similar” to an auracite, however we know that estinien destroyed the eye and dispersed that aether, so who knows where lahabrea could be right now.Something to note as well is that, not evena blade of light is able to kill them, it only expels them to the aetherial sea. So if that cant kill them, estinien piercing the eyes wont have anywhere near the power of the blade of light anyways. We' even have evidence of this from Loghrif/Mitron. Again, considering it’s called pandaemonium and that’s based off of ff2….i’d say it’s a safe bet he’s still around lol.

As for the Hades thing, i do think its strange to think hes dead. The man is literally essentially the lord of the underworld. We didnt use auracite on him which wouldve been the only thing preventing him from escaping to there. Iirc the mog event even implies hes just sitting in the lifestream lol.

It's been stated repeatedly that 6.0 is the end of the Ascian/Zodiak/Hydaelyn story. I really hope they don't break that promise by bringing back a guy who's been dead for years.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It's been stated repeatedly that 6.0 is the end of the Ascian/Zodiak/Hydaelyn story. I really hope they don't break that promise by bringing back a guy who's been dead for years.

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if im not wrong they specified its the end of the zodiarek and hydaelyn story. I dont believe its ever been said to be the end of the ascian story. Especially considering hes on the raid art, and theres also like, 5 remaining ascians. I would hope they dont just deal with them all offscreen as that would be incredibly lazy and just confirm my fears of 6.0 being a rushed mess.

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

Wol summons a shade of Hades, not the actual hades for the record

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5549668

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Odd for a mere shade summoned by an incomplete soul (according to ascians) to have the ability to call back not just one but 8 people back from literal oblivion.

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The power is in the stone (which is why the invocation circle of eld appears first with hades shade at the center of it) and its not really from oblivion but more from the rift between the shards thats specifically made as the ascians home base to retreat to if they are about to die

Zenos still bores me as much as the world seems to bore him, but Fandaniel I have to say has grown on me some in the last couple of patches. So I have some hope I may end up enjoying him at least.

Part of why I didn't like him at first was how suddenly he seemed to pull this plan out of his ass once Elidibus was gone, but seeing that our work in 5.4/5.5 has actually had an impact on his plans has been good to ease worries of him being a villain sue.

It's also worth noting I didn't like Emet-Selch AT ALL in the SB patches and it wasn't until SHB proper that I came around to him. So it is possible that 6.0 could do the same for Fandaniel. And who knows. Maybe even Zenos. But we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

The power is in the stone

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it's not, though and the link I posted earlier goes into more depth regarding ascians and their supposed deaths

you forgot marquis de sade

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Zenos still bores me as much as the world seems to bore him, but Fandaniel I have to say has grown on me some in the last couple of patches. So I have some hope I may end up enjoying him at least.

Part of why I didn't like him at first was how suddenly he seemed to pull this plan out of his ass once Elidibus was gone, but seeing that our work in 5.4/5.5 has actually had an impact on his plans has been good to ease worries of him being a villain sue.

It's also worth noting I didn't like Emet-Selch AT ALL in the SB patches and it wasn't until SHB proper that I came around to him. So it is possible that 6.0 could do the same for Fandaniel. And who knows. Maybe even Zenos. But we'll have to wait and see.

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What changed my view a little about Fandaniel is the potential that he may add something to the story, even if just through his backstory, about what caused the Final Days, as he seems pretty knowledgeable about how to replicate it, with an added dose of body horror, stoking my hopes for the involvement of some more primordial entity (Lavos or Jenova type thing.)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Surprised so many people are thinking Zodiark will be the final boss. Considering it seems like the obvious thing, and Yoshi P says he wants to subvert expectations with the expansion, i’m less inclined to believe so, especially with the nod to WoL having an Elidibus like shadow in the trailer whilst on the moon, my guess is on Venat.But yeah i hope it isnt Zenos isnt it. Having him as the final boss of not one but two expansions is ridiculous for how bad of a character he is. I'd much rather it be Venat or Fandaniel. Rather it not be Zodiark since we've barely even seen him and it would be nice to actually talk to someone who we know isnt even evil. We got however many expansions of Hydaelyn whispering in our ear, lets us have our Zodiark time.With how many times we've used hydaelyn's blessing and powers, i think it'd be interesting for us to get Zodiark's blessing to use against the final enemy. Then maybe the warrior of darkness title wouldnt be so much of a sham.I at least hope it isnt more of the same "Hydaelyn power good, lets use it again and again."

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I don't think it's much of a mystery that we're gonna have to end up snuffing out Hydaelyn.

Well they won't be FFXIV's final antagonists because the game will continue after endwalker, however iirc endwalker will be the end of this story line. So the expansion after endwalker should have a different set of villains. Also I highly suspect that the final boss will be some mythical god thing that we haven't even seen yet because final fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

I think the only FF that have done that was....1 with chaos and I think chaos was just a hidden final boss and 13-1 sorta did it as well.
Either way if you're saying that you probably haven't played many FF because almost all mainline FF stick to the final boss we know that's the final boss or we at least heard of.

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FF9 had a hidden "Real Final Boss" with Necron, which is a guy no one mentioned or knew existed till he dropped in and said "sup, monkey nuked the crystal so I'm here to kill everything".

Are you talking about Dissidia? Chaos wasn't exactly hidden.

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Oh right forgot about ff9 and I think you mean necron lmao. Necrozma is a pokemon.
I might have gotten confused with something else actually some reason I kept thinking it was ff1.

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Granted it's also a portmanteau of Necron and Ozma, too.

I just wish Zenos stayed dead. I find him thoroughly annoying AF

Emet Selch was a good antagonist. Heck even Emperor Varis was as well.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

I just wish Zenos stayed dead. I find him thoroughly annoying AF

Emet Selch was a good antagonist. Heck even Emperor Varis was as well.

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The fact that Zenos killed Varis, a character with so much more potential and history behind him is a travesty and a writing decision i’ll never agree with.

I still get chills the look of horror when Varis looks up and says you would kill me just for that? Zenos is just so much fun, and I don't think any other bad guy we get will come close to the levels of just pure fun that Zenos brings. Heck even the Ascians are some tragic story, blah blah...


But Zenos just wants that pleasure, wants to hunt. Does not care if he wins or loses at all. Life? Has no meaning without fun. Love? I think he is in love with the warrior of light in his own twisted way, everything he wants everything he does and breaths is to bring pure misery on to them, and that misery will make you stronger and strike him down.


I could see Zenos winning and being very upset that he does. That is just how twisted he is. We NEED a bad guy that makes you feel like he could do anything, just for his selfish reasons.


I hope that he sees y'shtola and just finishes the job off. Just so that it would scar warrior of light so deeply. It was a real shame that he has not killed anyone really close to the warrior of light. I really hope he finishes the job he started with y'shtola, that would be the icing on the cake. Worth being the greatest bad guy of this game to date.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The fact that Zenos killed Varis, a character with so much more potential and history behind him is a travesty and a writing decision i’ll never agree with.

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Varis had so much potential in the first half of the meeting at the tail end of SB's patches. Shame he went off the deep end in the second half and then was killed off by Zenos.

I don't necessarily hate selfish, chaotic villains. But Zenos doesn't do it for me. I can get behind a shallow but fun villain like Kefka or the Emperor from Star Wars. Even Fandaniel's starting to grow on me in that regard. But Zenos just bores me. It doesn't help that he feels like a villain sue who just one shots everything in his path and never has to actually struggle, scheme or work toward everything. In his partnership with Fandaniel it feels like Fandaniel's doing most of the actual work and Zenos is just along for the ride. They missed a golden opportunity to actually put Zenos under pressure having to use inferior bodies to reclaim his own but he never has any trouble or struggle to overcome. Even making Elidibus flee his body and warp off to the void without a real fight.

Zenos is one of those villains that's invincible until the story says it's time for the hero to defeat them and that's just not satisfying for me, at all. Kefka for example had to spend the first half of the game using underhanded tricks, running away when things got too hot, and scheming/betraying his way into power when the time was right. He didn't just show up into the story with the power to toss the main characters around.

I just find nothing there to engage with. He doesn't need to be sympathetic but I need SOMETHING and right now he just isn't offering anything for me.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Varis had so much potential in the first half of the meeting at the tail end of SB's patches. Shame he went off the deep end in the second half and then was killed off by Zenos.

I don't necessarily hate selfish, chaotic villains. But Zenos doesn't do it for me. I can get behind a shallow but fun villain like Kefka or the Emperor from Star Wars. Even Fandaniel's starting to grow on me in that regard. But Zenos just bores me. It doesn't help that he feels like a villain sue who just one shots everything in his path and never has to actually struggle, scheme or work toward everything. In his partnership with Fandaniel it feels like Fandaniel's doing most of the actual work and Zenos is just along for the ride. They missed a golden opportunity to actually put Zenos under pressure having to use inferior bodies to reclaim his own but he never has any trouble or struggle to overcome. Even making Elidibus flee his body and warp off to the void without a real fight.

Zenos is one of those villains that's invincible until the story says it's time for the hero to defeat them and that's just not satisfying for me, at all. Kefka for example had to spend the first half of the game using underhanded tricks, running away when things got too hot, and scheming/betraying his way into power when the time was right. He didn't just show up into the story with the power to toss the main characters around.

I just find nothing there to engage with. He doesn't need to be sympathetic but I need SOMETHING and right now he just isn't offering anything for me.

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Honestly i absolutely loved the meeting scene and seeing how he demolished the alliance. It was nice to finally see them taken down a peg. The biggest pet peeve of mine at that meeting was they gave us no option to mention Regula, Varis’ literal best friend. I think the writers just stopped caring at that point.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

For Zenos to be a successful 'pure evil' character he would need to inflict some serious lasting harm and trauma upon the protagonists. He has failed to do so and repeatedly walks away whenever granted the opportunity to do as much. So he simply falls flat as a character and seems to be have been created purely as an excuse to dismantle Garlemald without forcing the Scions or Warrior of Light to deal with the fact that an attempt to invade the place would displace and slaughter a great many innocent people.

I don't consider evil characters who only ever kill antagonists to be particularly compelling. Sephiroth was as much as a threat and thorn in the side to Shinra as he was to Cloud and his companions. Especially given what he does to a certain character...

Zenos has simply fallen flat for me. I had high hopes given the promise of an unapologetic villain but at this point I'm expecting him to do a heel face turn and side with the Warrior of Light for no other reason than 'rule of cool'. I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen - and it'll suck, given that the game has persistently refused to allow us to side with antagonists that had common ground and would realistically be open to reason and long term alliances had they not been conveniently slain/had their hands tied. Namely the likes of Regula and Varis.

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Every single AAA project SE puts out is written mandated by the 'rule of cool' though. I guess the earlier years of 2.0+ XIV made people hopeful it wouldn't be the case for it.
I also fully believe they didn't have 5.2+ properly planned as early as they like to brag and killing all antagonists that had grounds on 1.0~3.0+ too early was a massive mistake they're trying to compensate with pulling stuff like a surprise crazy ascian out of their rear and rehashing Zenos.

Ishikawa isn't looking like that good of a writer since 5.1 and I'll be extremely surprised if she somehow turns it around with Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Every single AAA project SE puts out is written mandated by the 'rule of cool' though. I guess the earlier years of 2.0+ XIV made people hopeful it wouldn't be the case for it.
I also fully believe they didn't have 5.2+ properly planned as early as they like to brag and killing all antagonists that had grounds on 1.0~3.0+ too early was a massive mistake they're trying to compensate with pulling stuff like a surprise crazy ascian out of their rear and rehashing Zenos.

Ishikawa isn't looking like that good of a writer since 5.1 and I'll be extremely surprised if she somehow turns it around with Endwalker.

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Finally someone said it. 5.2 and 5.3 just felt so terrible rushed and it was one of the few times it’s very noticeable. The main sign i saw was when they built up the whole thing of the crystarium people becoming WoL’s(which made elidibus’ plan seemingly be that they’d start another flood of light) which honestly would’ve been such a good plot. How are the scions gonna prevent people from doing good? But then….that entire plot thread is dropped in a single one off comment in 5.3 of “oh they decided not to.” Really? Elidibus barely having much screentime in the other expansions despite being the primary ascian, and then only getting literally 2 patches was another big sign. What’s interesting to me is according to Yoshi, Eden was supposed to be the final boss of ShB, which makes me wonder what they had planned for Emet and Elidibus. But yeah it seems like they just kill off characters that they don’t know how to write. First Regula, Then Varis and then Elidibus. All 3 had potential but they were cast aside and instead we get zenos who somehow has more screentime than the main ascian who’s been around since 2.0…I have very low hopes for Ishikawa in charge of 6.0. She seems to only be able to write sob stories and sympathetic character arcs, and the one character whom she didnt do that with(Zenos) is one of the blandest. Her writing just feels very same-y, with the amaurot instance in 5.3 just feleing like Drk 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Varis had so much potential in the first half of the meeting at the tail end of SB's patches. Shame he went off the deep end in the second half and then was killed off by Zenos.

I don't necessarily hate selfish, chaotic villains. But Zenos doesn't do it for me. I can get behind a shallow but fun villain like Kefka or the Emperor from Star Wars. Even Fandaniel's starting to grow on me in that regard. But Zenos just bores me. It doesn't help that he feels like a villain sue who just one shots everything in his path and never has to actually struggle, scheme or work toward everything. In his partnership with Fandaniel it feels like Fandaniel's doing most of the actual work and Zenos is just along for the ride. They missed a golden opportunity to actually put Zenos under pressure having to use inferior bodies to reclaim his own but he never has any trouble or struggle to overcome. Even making Elidibus flee his body and warp off to the void without a real fight.

Zenos is one of those villains that's invincible until the story says it's time for the hero to defeat them and that's just not satisfying for me, at all. Kefka for example had to spend the first half of the game using underhanded tricks, running away when things got too hot, and scheming/betraying his way into power when the time was right. He didn't just show up into the story with the power to toss the main characters around.

I just find nothing there to engage with. He doesn't need to be sympathetic but I need SOMETHING and right now he just isn't offering anything for me.

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I found him amusing in SB but he's a one-trick pony to me. Once you've seen him in action a few times, it gets dull pretty quickly. One thing they're compensating for a bit with Fandaniel is how apparent failure in realising his plans doesn't phase him overly much (this is something they did with Elidibus as well, of course), which creates a sense of intrigue as to what he's really trying to accomplish through his schemes. The fact that he wants to die but in a way that erases all existence (which would probably require the destruction of the Aetherial Sea too) means it wouldn't suffice for someone to simply "kill" him, as he could achieve that right now and simply not use his dark crystal. He wants something much more thoroughgoing.

Unfortunately, none of the "themes" that supposedly exist in Zenos do much to interest me and I don't consider him to pull them off particularly well, to the degree that they're even themes I care about.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Every single AAA project SE puts out is written mandated by the 'rule of cool' though. I guess the earlier years of 2.0+ XIV made people hopeful it wouldn't be the case for it.
I also fully believe they didn't have 5.2+ properly planned as early as they like to brag and killing all antagonists that had grounds on 1.0~3.0+ too early was a massive mistake they're trying to compensate with pulling stuff like a surprise crazy ascian out of their rear and rehashing Zenos.

Ishikawa isn't looking like that good of a writer since 5.1 and I'll be extremely surprised if she somehow turns it around with Endwalker.

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There's hints of this in certain interviews they did re-jig aspects of the story, so I'm inclined to agree with this. Elements of the story they went with (e.g. Elidibus's Primal nature, as well as the memory loss) just about barely worked if you don't look too closely.

Regarding Ishikawa, I believe she's competent enough, but in the end, character popularity seems to play a big part in their decision making, and it can fluctuate quite a lot, and is a likely constraint that can force last minute changes. In particular, I suspect they may have had more planned for Elidibus, but Emet-Selch took a lot of his thunder, and his rather meteoric popularity must have been too tempting to resist putting to use, plus I am sure they began to grow leery of the fan reaction of terminating the Exarch for good. IMO 5.3 was a mix of good (ancients'/Elidibus backstory) and bad (much of the rest, afaic), and I was disappointed in some ways, because I was expecting great things out of Elidibus following 5.2... not for him to be dispatched summarily by 5.3, a mere few patches after Emet was taken out. Elidibus and Varis were two of my favourite characters.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

only be able to write sob stories and sympathetic character arcs

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Most writers use those nowadays in almost everything since it's basically a 100% chance to succeed. All i hope is that they don't drag zenos lower than he already is by trying to introduce some sob story for him. At that point i'd just skip the story until he's dead, just like i did with Yotsuyu.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Most writers use those nowadays in almost everything since it's basically a 100% chance to succeed. All i hope is that they don't drag zenos lower than he already is by trying to introduce some sob story for him. At that point i'd just skip the story until he's dead, just like i did with Yotsuyu.

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Luckily(ur unluckily depending on how you see it) Yoshi has said they won’t do a sympathetic story for him which, on one hand is like…yay? But on the other hand that’s probably the only thing at this point that could somewhat save his character since people are suckers for that kind of thing.

Zenos is at his best when he's riled up and ready to satisfy his rampant bloodlust. They should of leaned into that side of him more instead of constantly showing him being absolutely bored and moping about not being able to go kill his best frienemy while Fandango does a merry jig in the background.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What’s interesting to me is according to Yoshi, Eden was supposed to be the final boss of ShB, which makes me wonder what they had planned for Emet and Elidibus.

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For real? I haven't heard about this. It's very interesting indeed. I guess if eden was supposed to be final boss of ShB, it would be 5.3 boss. I think emet is always supposed to be 5.0 boss, while elidibus is to rushed to be 5.3 boss. Since they also said that originally hydaelyn zodiark arc was to be done in 7.0, elidibus should be our final boss in it.

They also missed the chance of having the arc close when we are at lvl 99/100 XD

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Originally Posted by Kozh

For real? I haven't heard about this. It's very interesting indeed. I guess if eden was supposed to be final boss of ShB, it would be 5.3 boss. I think emet is always supposed to be 5.0 boss, while elidibus is to rushed to be 5.3 boss. Since they also said that originally hydaelyn zodiark arc was to be done in 7.0, elidibus should be our final boss in it.

They also missed the chance of having the arc close when we are at lvl 99/100 XD

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Well the way he worded it it seemed like Eden was going to be the 5.0 boss with Emet as the 5.3 boss. It makes sense though because yeah, Elidibus as the 5.3 boss was just insanely rushed and poorly done. Was basically a butcher of his character. I have really low hopes for Endwalker because i don’t see how they’re going to fit what was supposed to be in a whole extra expansion, in just one. They aren’t even using the post patches to finish the arc either they said. The entire arc is supposed to be ended by 6.0, not 6.3 which is even more concerning. And with how much they need to cover between all of the new areas, Garlemald, Sharlayan stuff etc. I can’t help but think it’s going to be a mess and we’re going to see more rushing like we saw with Elidibus.

I always thought the Zodiark frame we see in some cutscenes to remind me of FF9 Necron

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well the way he worded it it seemed like Eden was going to be the 5.0 boss with Emet as the 5.3 boss. It makes sense though because yeah, Elidibus as the 5.3 boss was just insanely rushed and poorly done. Was basically a butcher of his character. I have really low hopes for Endwalker because i don’t see how they’re going to fit what was supposed to be in a whole extra expansion, in just one. They aren’t even using the post patches to finish the arc either they said. The entire arc is supposed to be ended by 6.0, not 6.3 which is even more concerning. And with how much they need to cover between all of the new areas, Garlemald, Sharlayan stuff etc. I can’t help but think it’s going to be a mess and we’re going to see more rushing like we saw with Elidibus.

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Oh boy, we're going to speedrun sharlayan's "redemption arc", aren't we? It took more than 3.0 to deal with ishgard, and now we're going to deal with sharlayan AND the calamity+Garlemald+etc in a single base expansion. I just hope they don't half-ass the garlean conflict, since I'm more intrigued by them than thavnair etc.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well the way he worded it it seemed like Eden was going to be the 5.0 boss with Emet as the 5.3 boss. It makes sense though because yeah, Elidibus as the 5.3 boss was just insanely rushed and poorly done. Was basically a butcher of his character. I have really low hopes for Endwalker because i don’t see how they’re going to fit what was supposed to be in a whole extra expansion, in just one. They aren’t even using the post patches to finish the arc either they said. The entire arc is supposed to be ended by 6.0, not 6.3 which is even more concerning. And with how much they need to cover between all of the new areas, Garlemald, Sharlayan stuff etc. I can’t help but think it’s going to be a mess and we’re going to see more rushing like we saw with Elidibus.

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elidibus really deserved a whole expansion dedicated to him, tbh

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

elidibus really deserved a whole expansion dedicated to him, tbh

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I'd like to think that they are aware that the whole Ascian thing has kind of run its course.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

elidibus really deserved a whole expansion dedicated to him, tbh

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He honestly did. I feel like they just gave what he was supposed to be entirely to Emet, and just sidelined him. Then used him for shitty fanservice lol. The only thing i can really hope for is he somehow comes back but at this point they seem to just want to quickly end things so :/ But yeah the thing that will always leave me salty is zenos of all people getting not 1 but two expansions dedicated to him, and having double if not triple the amount of screentime elidibus had. It’s why i can’t take people seriously when they’re still saying “give him a chance.” He’s had two expansions now to have his chance, he hasn’t changed. He’s cost us two good characters at this point i’m just hoping he’s killed off early in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Out of nowhere, it's Necron!

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Oh boy, that would be hilarious

Wish Emet lasted until 5.3 and then we got Elidibus, not spoiled priviledged bored sleepy anime boy, for the 6.0 antagonist.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Oh boy, we're going to speedrun sharlayan's "redemption arc", aren't we? It took more than 3.0 to deal with ishgard, and now we're going to deal with sharlayan AND the calamity+Garlemald+etc in a single base expansion. I just hope they don't half-ass the garlean conflict, since I'm more intrigued by them than thavnair etc.

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Garlemald was doomed the moment they decided that "ascians did it" was a good origin story for the empire.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Garlemald was doomed the moment they decided that "ascians did it" was a good origin story for the empire.

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I think that there's some rather baffling decisions where Garlemald is concerned. I can't help but wonder how differently the game's story might have gone if the writer largely responsible for ARR and HW had not been quietly shuffled over to FFXVI. I'll be rather disappointed if, in turn, FFXVI ends up revolving around many of the plot points that were hinted at in FFXIV and then quickly abandoned.

The way in which Elidibus and Varis were handled was rather questionable. Both existed since the days of ARR and then both abruptly end up being written off the moment they finally step up and enter the spotlight directly. All so Zenos can inexplicitly hijack the focus of not only Garlemald but the Ascian storyline as well.

I've always been fond of Garlemald, personally - and it's a real shame that more inspiration was not taken from the Archadian Empire of FFXII. Perhaps it will go in that direction after the inevitable Garlemald reconstruction is introduced.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Wish Emet lasted until 5.3 and then we got Elidibus, not spoiled priviledged bored sleepy anime boy, for the 6.0 antagonist.

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Aye, same. Heading into a conflict between Venat, Elidibus and the true instigator (Fandaniel?) of the Final Days in 6.0. At least two of them are still around, I guess, which is why I'm still intrigued enough to see it to the end. If it had just been Zenos, I'd be tuning out.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think that there's some rather baffling decisions where Garlemald is concerned. I can't help but wonder how differently the game's story might have gone if the writer largely responsible for ARR and HW had not been quietly shuffled over to FFXVI. I'll be rather disappointed if, in turn, FFXVI ends up revolving around many of the plot points that were hinted at in FFXIV and then quickly abandoned.

The way in which Elidibus and Varis were handled was rather questionable. Both existed since the days of ARR and then both abruptly end up being written off the moment they finally step up and enter the spotlight directly. All so Zenos can inexplicitly hijack the focus of not only Garlemald but the Ascian storyline as well.

I've always been fond of Garlemald, personally - and it's a real shame that more inspiration was not taken from the Archadian Empire of FFXII. Perhaps it will go in that direction after the inevitable Garlemald reconstruction is introduced.

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I'd argue there were a few cool lore/plot points way before that, in 1.0 days, that were disappointingly brushed off with horrible excuses like "calamity did it", such as the elementals in the shroud, the amber rock, much of Vylbrand and while we had/have the political intrigues with the monetarists in Ul'dah the power struggles/scheming to get to the top that was hinted by the intro storyline was honestly a pretty interesting side that got almost as toned down/cast aside as the dark atmosphere of the original shroud.
People like to bash the intro stories from 1.0 as "boring", but I say they're a lot more fascinating than the childish chase against mysterious masked man that the nations got in 2.0. I'd love to revisit those darker sides of each nation but we won't see them again because as of 5.3+ they're all getting the closest thing to a flowery happy ending.
I think the way Garlemald has been treated by the writing is the tip of the iceberg of a lot of interesting things that could have been built up if the original release of the game hadn't been a disaster.

Honestly discussions like these really help me cement the fact this game has long since took a detour that I was never on board with.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Honestly discussions like these really help me cement the fact this game has long since took a detour that I was never on board with.

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I originally played this game because i’m a huge fan of the final fantasy series as i’ve stated before. I grew up with it, i was completely enamored bu the various stories, just how dark and realistic they could get etc. It’s why ff12 for example is one of my favorites. It really shows just how brutal can be, and not just for one side. Everyone is shown to be affected by it, everyone has to deal with all of these consequences. 14 sucked me in with ARR and HW and i loved how dark they were. The storytelling was great. Once SB came and then now ShB i was just like…really? Honestly 6.0 is the last chance i’m giving for the game personally. If the story isn’t up to par, then by then i expect some of these newer mmo’s to be out that hopefully won’t let the community take control of storytelling aspects or will actually put more time and effort into the story than we’ve seen lately.

Also want to add that you'd think they'd be able to explore more on things like the inner issues in the underworld or shadows of each nation or similar things not necessarily being dark, but even with the sidequests/job quests there is a lot of wasted opportunity because they can't impact the MSQ too much. And when they do bring them up it's usually written in a super rushed, shallow, anime filler-esque script with a LOT of tell don't show happening, making it really hard to care about them.

If they hired a small team dedicated entirely to really digging deep into those internal scenarios for existing nations that we could start and follow completely or partially independently from the MSQ progress... Like, really give me an interesting detailed arc about the Allacran, or whatever is left of the Horn and Hand (they dealt with intel and espinonage dammit that's potential for something interesting), about some of the remaining pirate factions, about Gelmorra, etc, etc... Don't just expect me to pay for a stupid physical book because you refuse to add enough playable content that explores the rich but disappointingly wasted lore that you let rot in regions the MSQ happens not to care much about anymore.

I don't want to just read walls of text about those things. I want a GAME experience with them. Since they will be done with the Hydaelin x Zodiark plot in 6.0, I really wish they'd have a team dedicated to spreading full but meaty optional storylines with fights, mini instances and everything for existing areas. THAT would make me overlook all the design issues I have with current XIV and stick around.

I actually like Zenos decently as a character, but I'm actually personally hoping he's more of a "rival" in the end, not a "villain". Perhaps even SIDING with us in the final stand against Zodiark, effectively the "Vegeta" to our "Goku".

I will say, though, that I'm bummed he's the new poster-boy for Reaper. I kind of liked his "Garlean samurai" vibe, and his armor was SICK! Although he looks a bit more "girly" than I'd have opted.

Fandaniel is definitely hella boring, though. And annoying. But he's not even fun in that "you love to hate him" kind of way, he just feels kind of dull.

Man. I never knew that people had such rough feelings on Shadowbringers and 5.3. I conversely consider them to be some of the heights of the game's storytelling. They have a level of thematic coherence and resonance that no other expansion comes close to matching. Each side plot, each main event (even those stupid trolly boyz) all feed back into the same themes, motifs, and core concepts. It's a level of cohesion that you don't see very often in video games in general, let alone a mass-market MMORPG. Granted, I care a lot more about thematic concerns than 'realism in the setting' or what have you. I felt that Elidibus got one hell of a send-off, even if I understand why some people disagree.

...That being said I certainly have concerns about Zenos. I'm willing to give the writers something of a 'benefit of the doubt due to their now proven track record of turning me around on characters (who would have ever thought I'd love to learn more about Lahabrea or end up loving Ardbert?) but at the moment Zenos's motivations are too weak. He's very much got an anime motivation, and while that makes him fun to watch as a villain (especially paired with Fandaniel, who he has wonderful chemistry with) I worry that he doesn't have the same ideological nature as prior protagonists. Gaius's Darwinian colonialism, Thordan's dogmatism, Emet-Selch's weirdly sympathetic fascism, they all had ideological cores that brought them forward and gave the story life and meaning.

Zenos...wants a big anime swordfight. But again, I'll give a little benefit of the doubt. Big difference between that and optimism though.