*SPOILERS* Terrified for the remaining Scions!

Lack of stakes? I don't understand.

What about when Tesleen was horrifically turned into a sin eater?

Or when you entered Holminster Switch for the first time and witnessed all those innocent villagers being victimized by the sin eaters?

Or when the sin eaters invaded Lakeland at night and decimated the Crystarium army?

Those are just a few examples from Shadowbringers. Yes, they are all minor characters, but I personally felt for all of them. All of these parts of the story definitely established high stakes, at least for me.

I didn't have to know these characters to feel bad for things I saw on the screen. It made the threat of the sin eaters very real.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the main characters should always be invincible. I'm just trying to argue why the current story has been phenomenal in terms of building up high stakes.

Shadowbringers did a great job in building up tension, suspense, and drama that eventually led up to an excellent emotional payoff.

Establishing high stakes is important, but it can be done without killing main characters.

Killing off a character just for the sake of being subversive can end up having the opposite effect (like Star Wars: The Last Jedi).

There are lots of fantastic stories out there that don't kill of their main characters, like Lord of the Rings.

Again, I'm not saying I'm opposed to a main character being killed off (as long as it's done well). I just don't understand how people can claim that this story has been "low stakes" so far.

There's also various other JRPG's that have killed off party members:

- Shadow Hearts
- Legend of Dragoon
- Grandia 2

To name but three. It isn't anything new. Which makes it all the more baffling that FFXIV decides to play things so safe.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Aria in FF3 is a side character.
If we count these side characters then people should be satisfied with FF14 thanks to Papalymo, Moenbryda, and co.

Oh snap though I forgot about Tellah.



And as I mentioned the main characters that died turned out to have either faked it or they come back to life.


FF2 did not kill of any of their 3 main characters. They had a revolving door of side characters temporarily join your party and die, but the main cast? No.
For side characters see what I said about FF3.


I suppose Galuf dies, that's true.


Yes, I acknowledged this.


No playable characters are dead by the end. After you kill Necron everyone comes back to life.


Wait... (checks notes), I thought we were talking about the series roots...
Some of those games are a bit older by this point, but calling them "roots" is too strong a term. Heck, you're bringing up things that came out after FF14 did.

Looking at 1-9, one main characters dies in 4, one in 5 and one in 7. That's hardly establishing it as a (in Kizuya's words) "common thing."
If you count games were main characters die and stay dead, then people should be more appreciative of all the hard work Y'shtola is putting in lol.

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It doesn’t matter if 15 came after 14, point stands that it came out before ShB which is what this topic is about. You can nitpick all you want, but the main thing is, death has always been a part of final fantasy. Type 0 had the entire main cast die which was around 8+ people. 13-2 had the main character die and the antagonist actually won. Someone does die in 9 although it happens after the final boss. The ff2 characters were major characters, so much so they literally got an entire separate game version dedicated to them. Someone else mentioned someone from ff3 as well, ff4 was tellah, ff5 galuf, ff6 shadow etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

snip

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We knew tesleen for like 5 minutes. I heavily disagree with ShB having an excellent payoff. While they did have suspense with the scions being on a time limit, nothing came from that. No consequences whatsoever. One of the things they had built up, which was the fact Graha was weaker the farther away he is from the tower, had no payoff because they completely ignored that plot point at the end of ShB and gave him immense plot armor. As i've said many times before, look at HW. We didnt face crazy mighty foes, but we still lost people. But look at ShB, where we face the strongest foes yet, literal demigods, and its the sole expansion where we come out unscathed. Its dull. I already feel heavily detached from the scions as it is, but them just having immeasurable plot armor and messing up the story with plot holes out of nowhere is detrimental.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

The twins won't die. I bet my account on it.
They will pick one of the easier targets like Thancred (his development is pretty much resolved) or Estinien (hasn't been around as long and was a jerk for most of his screentime) and avoid those they know would generate the most fan fury (G'raha, Y'shtola)

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Sadly, I think you're right about that.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

Lack of stakes? I don't understand.

What about when Tesleen was horrifically turned into a sin eater?

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

death only matters if the character is introduced in the same patch they die in.

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They kill off so many characters they introduce for the expressed purpose of emotional impact that I have stopped paying attention to new faces until they've been around for a while. They use "death" of the scions too many times for the same reason. Y'shtola is kind of a meme with this.

There are no stakes because you already know who the canon fodder is before they load the lead.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Sadly, I think you're right about that.

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Honestly, I feel quite the contrary. My time with Alisaie has left me with an overwhelming sense that she is marked. Now, maybe that's a red herring - who knows. But, of all the Scions, I feel like you could kill a twin and life would just go on.

Plot twist, Y'shtola knows she has plot armor, and she keeps pulling increasingly more dangerous stunts just to see what she can get away with.

Calling it now, she's gonna reveal she knows how to perform Louisoix's sealing technique and will not only survive using it, but regain usage of her eyes.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesn’t matter if 15 came after 14, point stands that it came out before ShB which is what this topic is about. You can nitpick all you want, but the main thing is, death has always been a part of final fantasy.

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Nitpick nothing.
We are explicitly talking about main character deaths in the roots of the franchise.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's also various other JRPG's that have killed off party members:

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Other things did other things. I don't understand how this is relevant. That's like saying DC has published some comics where the main character died, so why aren't there more main character deaths in this other series they're publishing.
These things aren't really related.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

ff4 did it,ff2 did it, ff5 did it, ff7 did it, ff9 did it, ff10 did it, ff12 did it, ff13 did it, ff type 0 did it, ff15 did it. I have no idea where you’re coming from when you say they don’t generally do this. It’s literally a common thing.

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Let me break it down comparing 14 to other games in the franchise. I'm going to put all this as a spoiler, since this is spoilers for a lot of FF games.

FF2: No main series game has matched its death toll for main cast.
FF4: Tellah only.
FF5: Galuf only
FF7: Aerith only
FF9: Vivi, only after final boss
FF10: Auron (and technically Tidus, but he was only a dream)
FF12: Nobody who was a main character technically died. Just a guy who showed up near the latter part of the game and didn't have much backstory to him.
FF13: Cid only
FF Type 0: Highest death toll in franchise.
FF15: Noctis and Luna.

Of those, FF14 beats out every other main series game other than FF2 in terms of main characters dying. We've had at least 3 main characters die over the course of the expansions.

I never like the idea of killing someone to "raise the stakes" because then you get stupid deaths like Papalymo. It's also ironic that many here are arguing about old games and killing off characters when those were most often guest or ally characters, but then are complaining when XIV has done the same thing. Noraxia, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, Ysayle, Meffrid, Conrad, and Tesleen were ally characters. And losing them was still a punch. Especially Meffrid for me when you realize the Revolutions trailer directly foreshadowed it in the trailer and the song but because they threw in that misdirect with Y'shtola we didn't catch on.

We don't have to lose major characters for it to hurt and drive home the severity of events.

This isn't a major point, but I'll make it anyway. While Eorzea isn't technically the world of the original Ivalice, the game's story makes it pretty clear that events essentially parallel to the War of the Lions occurred here. And that was, bar-none, Final Fantasy's most violent game - the vast majority of major characters you encounter in FFT die.

Not saying that will happen here, but FFXIV is probably most closely tethered to FFT of all the other Final Fantasies, if not in mood, then at least the structure of the world, specific jobs, etc. So if things turned quite dark before we reached the end, and 'FF MMORPG Roman Numeral: ?' released, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Let me break it down comparing 14 to other games in the franchise. I'm going to put all this as a spoiler, since this is spoilers for a lot of FF games.

FF2: No main series game has matched its death toll for main cast.
FF4: Tellah only.
FF5: Galuf only
FF7: Aerith only
FF9: Vivi, only after final boss
FF10: Auron (and technically Tidus, but he was only a dream)
FF12: Nobody who was a main character technically died. Just a guy who showed up near the latter part of the game and didn't have much backstory to him.
FF13: Cid only
FF Type 0: Highest death toll in franchise.
FF15: Noctis and Luna.

Of those, FF14 beats out every other main series game other than FF2 in terms of main characters dying. We've had at least 3 main characters die over the course of the expansions.

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You can argue that an expansion is the equivalent of a base game though. Cuz in that case you could argue things like sequels etc. Irregardless of that though, it’s a common theme in ff for people to die, or not even that but for there to be consequences for the protags. For example, ff12 major characters may not have died, but the game ended with the antagonists technically winning and the world slowly getting messed up which the protags couldn’t prevent.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

Again, I'm not saying I'm opposed to a main character being killed off (as long as it's done well). I just don't understand how people can claim that this story has been "low stakes" so far.

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If the main characters escape every situation theyre placed in completely unscathed then it doesn't matter if they're thrown in another death trap because its a safe bet that they'll once again make it through...completely unscathed. If theres no consequences to fear, why be afraid? There is no reason to worry about any of the main scions at this point. Their plot armor is as thick as ours and we're the one that was chosen by the sentient crystal god*.

Haurchefant's death had more substance than Tesleen or Moenbryda or Gaius's flock of lizard children because he actually had presence in the story for more than a quest or two.

I agree that death does not a story make, but there should be some level of consequences for events happening to our leads when they're thrown into situations as dangerous as they're presented as.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

This isn't a major point, but I'll make it anyway. While Eorzea isn't technically the world of the original Ivalice, the game's story makes it pretty clear that events essentially parallel to the War of the Lions occurred here. And that was, bar-none, Final Fantasy's most violent game - the vast majority of major characters you encounter in FFT die.

Not saying that will happen here, but FFXIV is probably most closely tethered to FFT of all the other Final Fantasies, if not in mood, then at least the structure of the world, specific jobs, etc. So if things turned quite dark before we reached the end, and 'FF MMORPG Roman Numeral: ?' released, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

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I think that honor goes to Type-0. That one was dark from that chilling beginning cutscene to the end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Irregardless of that though, it’s a common theme in ff for people to die,

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Then you should be happy, because if you just want people to die I'd like to introduce you to
Papalymo, Noraxia, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, Ysayle, Meffrid, Conrad, Tesleen, Louisoix, Nael van Darnus, The Griffin, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Then you should be happy, because if you just want people to die I'd like to introduce you to
Papalymo, Noraxia, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, Ysayle, Meffrid, Conrad, Tesleen, Louisoix, Nael van Darnus, The Griffin, etc. etc.

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None of those are recent barring tesleen and again, we knew her for quite literally 5 minutes. It’s not just that i want them to die, i want there to be consequences for them to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story. It’s funny how no one can answer my question of why in the expansion against the strongest foes and with the highest stakes, it’s the expansion with the least amount of consequences for the protags. Again, keeping characters alive through plot armor only makes the story disjointed and jarring again, like what they did with Graha. When they start neglecting their own plot elements they raised up simply to keep a character alive, there’s a problem.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Then you should be happy, because if you just want people to die I'd like to introduce you to
Papalymo, Noraxia, Moenbryda, Haurchefant, Ysayle, Meffrid, Conrad, Tesleen, Louisoix, Nael van Darnus, The Griffin, etc. etc.

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You forgot to mention that we, the main character, died at the beginning of the 8th umbra calamity. True it was reversed, but, we still died none the less and in a nasty way too.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

None of those are recent barring tesleen and again, we knew her for quite literally 5 minutes. It’s not just that i want them to die, i want there to be consequences for them to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story.

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We watched someone get skewered, turn into a sin eater before our eyes, and then we fought them in the first dungeon. That did pretty well to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story for me.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Again, keeping characters alive through plot armor only makes the story disjointed and jarring again, like what they did with Graha. When they start neglecting their own plot elements they raised up simply to keep a character alive, there’s a problem.

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There's also the flip side, killing someone just to kill someone for stupid drama reasons like Papalymo.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We watched someone get skewered, turn into a sin eater before our eyes, and then we fought them in the first dungeon. That did pretty well to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story for me.



There's also the flip side, killing someone just to kill someone for stupid drama reasons like Papalymo.

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Yeah, that sin eater encounter was certainly unnerving. They did a good job at showing us just how bad things were. As far as Papalymo goes...yeah, that was pretty lackluster. "Hey guys, I'm gonna go toward that giant egg in the sky and die. Kbye!" I just kinda sat there afterwards not feeling much of anything. It was pointless, not that I liked the character anyway.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We watched someone get skewered, turn into a sin eater before our eyes, and then we fought them in the first dungeon. That did pretty well to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story for me.

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I’m not so quick to get attached to a character. We knew her for such a short time, and while the transformation was gruesome, the fact of the matter is it really did nothing. If persay, it had been one of our scion friends to transform into one and we had to put them down, then yeah that’s actual stakes. Because then we’re left wondering is that going to happen to anyone else among our group? It’s why the severity of the WoL turning did nothing for me as well. I knew we would make it out fine because obviously we’re the main playable character. The scions is the way that they can achieve proper severity and stakes of situations by making consequences for them. Remember when Yshtola’s life was supposed to be gradually decaying? Instead she gets a power up in shb. I’m more inclined in these situations to ask, what does keeping these characters alive do for the story. Graha for example, has served little purpose. Everything we’ve done we could’ve done without him. Same with Yshtola. Same with Thancred.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

None of those are recent barring tesleen and again, we knew her for quite literally 5 minutes. It’s not just that i want them to die, i want there to be consequences for them to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story. It’s funny how no one can answer my question of why in the expansion against the strongest foes and with the highest stakes, it’s the expansion with the least amount of consequences for the protags. Again, keeping characters alive through plot armor only makes the story disjointed and jarring again, like what they did with Graha. When they start neglecting their own plot elements they raised up simply to keep a character alive, there’s a problem.

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Simple, because SE decided so. And they are the only ones who make that call.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

None of those are recent barring tesleen and again, we knew her for quite literally 5 minutes.

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Forgive me, but it seems like you've just moved the goalpost.
Now you're not just asking for people to die, but we need to have recently had characters with lots of build up behind them to die? For there to always be a recent death like this I guess there needs to consistently be deaths like this...
Yeah, hmm... we really don't have a precedent for that (especially in the series roots) so I'm not too sure why you are acting like we should be having a consistent stream of impactful major character permadeaths.

Personaly i won't care if some or even all of them die for once, and to be honest i would enjoy a lot they deaths if they happen and the end but i expect them to survive and have a happy ending with minimun consequences over the "good guys".

Im really tired of the minimun consequences and plot armor around all the good guys this game has imposing this last expansion and im really tired of the fake deaths everywhere. While i always been more atached to the empire and his awesome characters like Gaius, Regula and the god emperor Varis (i'll never forgeth the moment he roasted the whole alliance, my fav scene in the whole game but i hate how they literally kill them off-screen) for much i tried i never been able to conect with any of the scions or the alliance, well with S'thola at first but after holding the record of fake deaths in this game im really tired of her.

I expect better, HW is for me the peak of the story of the game so i hope EW reach that level of mature, but considering how it's going i expect nothing more that what others say average anime plot specially considering the villians we have.

anyway time whould tell so cheers.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We knew tesleen for like 5 minutes. I heavily disagree with ShB having an excellent payoff. While they did have suspense with the scions being on a time limit, nothing came from that. No consequences whatsoever. One of the things they had built up, which was the fact Graha was weaker the farther away he is from the tower, had no payoff because they completely ignored that plot point at the end of ShB and gave him immense plot armor. As i've said many times before, look at HW. We didnt face crazy mighty foes, but we still lost people. But look at ShB, where we face the strongest foes yet, literal demigods, and its the sole expansion where we come out unscathed. Its dull. I already feel heavily detached from the scions as it is, but them just having immeasurable plot armor and messing up the story with plot holes out of nowhere is detrimental.

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You are right in that we only knew Tesleen for a short while.

However, I don't think we need a deep emotional attachment to a character that dies for a story to become high stakes.

Not knowing her for long doesn't take away from what happened to her was horrifying.

Tesleen's demise drove the point home very well that the sin eaters are a tremendous threat to the world. It was an excellent example of the terror and destruction these monsters inflict.

If the warrior of light fails, that spells the end of the world. That's definitely high stakes. Just the knowledge of what these people go through and what they have to endure was enough.

There's a story duty in which you and the Scions have to assist the Crystarium soldiers defeat the sin eaters when they invade Lakeland.

In one part of the duty, you and the Scions try to reach a group of soldiers to save them, but you can't reach them in time and they're all killed.

For me, that was a very "high stakes" moment and cranked up the emotional tension and sense of urgency.

As for emotional payoff, I thought it was extremely well thought out.

For example, when you beat Holminster Switch and the night sky is revealed for the first time, I felt that was one of the most life-affirming moments in the game, and it served a reminder of why these characters fight so hard and sacrifice so much.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We watched someone get skewered, turn into a sin eater before our eyes, and then we fought them in the first dungeon. That did pretty well to properly display the severity of the situation and the actual stakes in the story for me.

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Agreed 100%

Shadowbringers especially did a great job in maintaining this sense of urgency throughout the story. The constant threat of the sin eaters (and the consequences their success would mean to the citizens of Norvrandt), as well as the lingering idea of absorbing too much light and its terrible consequence kept me from ever feeling "safe". I always had a feeling of dread whenever things seemed to "relax". And I think that's because the story established high stakes from the get go.

It's honestly difficult to take the empire or the ascians seriously anymore. All they are doing is getting defeated by the WoL/Scions/Eorzia. It's ridiculous how all city states still have the same leaders, none of them ever being in real danger, while the Garleans lost one legatus after another and their emperor. No even to mention that we killed all three unsundered Ascians while the Scions have huge plot armor.
I don't have much hope anything will change in Endwalker. Anything other than a glorious victory against Zenos and Zodiark with minimal loses for the WoL and his team of goody good guys would surprise me.

Just cut the fakeout deaths, they're more than annoying at this point.

Something bad happens to X, they look dead...
cutscene ends.
WHEW THAT WAS A CLOSE ONE WASN'T IT HAHA

I think some people are getting too lost in the weeds on the need for characters to die. They can easily just be written out of the story as active players who have to be with the WoL at all times. Some of the Scions have basically finished their story arcs and their slot could be better served by characters who still have stories to tell, especially since it's pretty clear that there are a few characters at least who are almost guaranteed not to die.

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Originally Posted by Scryar

It's honestly difficult to take the empire or the ascians seriously anymore. All they are doing is getting defeated by the WoL/Scions/Eorzia. It's ridiculous how all city states still have the same leaders, none of them ever being in real danger, while the Garleans lost one legatus after another and their emperor. No even to mention that we killed all three unsundered Ascians while the Scions have huge plot armor.
I don't have much hope anything will change in Endwalker. Anything other than a glorious victory against Zenos and Zodiark with minimal loses for the WoL and his team of goody good guys would surprise me.

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Yep. We never lose - not, at least, on a strategic level. Final Fantasy used to take risks - in FFVI, we were defeated; we killed Kefka, but it was heavily implied that millions perished, and the world was irrevocably altered. We won, but we lost... and our victory couldn't reverse what had occured on our watch: burned cities, continents sundered, and magic (and a race of ancient magical beings) snuffed out. We failed, and others paid. It made the payoff at the end as much about revenge as rejoicing - it was a hollow victory, and because of that, it felt real.

I'm still waiting for FFXIV to hand us a situation like that - where the WoL comes up short, and there is no easy recovery. Something tells me that I'll be left disappointed. This story is just so nonchalant when it comes to perils and penalties. We simply do not experience anything more significant than minor setbacks.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Yep. We never lose - not, at least, on a strategic level. Final Fantasy used to take risks - in FFVI, we were defeated; we killed Kefka, but it was heavily implied that millions perished, and the world was irrevocably altered. We won, but we lost... and our victory couldn't reverse what had occured on our watch: burned cities, continents sundered, and magic (and a race of ancient magical beings) snuffed out. We failed, and others paid. It made the payoff at the end as much about revenge as rejoicing - it was a hollow victory, and because of that, it felt real.

I'm still waiting for FFXIV to hand us a situation like that - where the WoL comes up short, and there is no easy recovery. Something tells me that I'll be left disappointed. This story is just so nonchalant when it comes to perils and penalties. We simply do not experience anything more significant than minor setbacks.

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They may use Garlemald for that. We've managed to save it, only for some device to go off, killing all the people we just saved, using them as a sacrifice for a Terminus we then have to fight in a Trial.

As long as we don't get a Victory Gundam on our hands, I think I'll probably be good with whatever MSQ comes down the line so long as it's well done.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah, that sin eater encounter was certainly unnerving. They did a good job at showing us just how bad things were. As far as Papalymo goes...yeah, that was pretty lackluster. "Hey guys, I'm gonna go toward that giant egg in the sky and die. Kbye!" I just kinda sat there afterwards not feeling much of anything. It was pointless, not that I liked the character anyway.

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I loved the character and thought it was the most idiotic death in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

As long as we don't get a Victory Gundam on our hands, I think I'll probably be good with whatever MSQ comes down the line so long as it's well done.

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Or a Zeta Gundam. We don't need that much depression in the finale.

I think the most probable outcome will be like this:
1) the scion will be disbanded, or reformed with the B team as its core member.
2) y'sthola will have fake out death again but will be fine obviously. After EW maybe she will stay with matoya or go back to sharlayan to study on how to establish a rift between source and shards.
3) alphinaud will stay at sharlayan to help with its politics and to re-integrated it into Eorzean alliance.
4) thancred either will be dead or retired. I hope it's retired, since they has tortured him so much and he deserves peaceful retirement.
5) urianger either join y'sthola, or dead (a bit unlikely).
6) alisae and g'raha probably will join us for the next adventure.
7) estinien... Maybe he'll go back home to ishgard to help aymeric.
8) if they haven't given up on lyse, there's a chance that something will happen to raubahn and he has to pass the leadership to lyse (after we're being shown how much better she is now of course, otherwise people will lose their mind again over it).
9) I don't think anything will happen to the city states leaders.

Most deaths will probably on the Garlemald survivor side.

At this point, the plot armor on the Scions is so thick that I'd be really surprised if they had the guts to off any of them.

Not that I consider such a thing necessary for making Endwalker memorable.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Y'shtola will at the very least have a near death experience we need to save her from, I can tell you that much.

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Is it even an expansion if Y'shtola doesn't almost die?

ARR: The escape tunnel
HW: The Lifestream
SB: Getting sliced by Zenos
ShB: The Lifestream 2: Electric Boogaloo

If they ever kill anyone it will be someone averagely endearing by the people/narrative, but not so plot relevant, like say, Krile, or Arenvald miraculously being able to walk again just to actually die heroically. Or whatever new main character they add in EW

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Originally Posted by Kozh

8) if they haven't given up on lyse, there's a chance that something will happen to raubahn and he has to pass the leadership to lyse (after we're being shown how much better she is now of course, otherwise people will lose their mind again over it).

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You realize he doesn't have leadership, right?

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

You realize he doesn't have leadership, right?

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Idk, I'm pretty sure he and M'naago run the place. Lyse is nothing but the poster girl

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Idk, I'm pretty sure he and M'naago run the place. Lyse is nothing but the poster girl

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Yeah, Lyse is next to useless. Hasn't really changed since her introduction though. lol I don't like Alisaie one bit either but at least she's productive.

thancreds development feels finished so i think he may die. dont think alphinaud will ever die. alisaie, even though i hope not, may die to give alphinaud more growth.

its about time a state leader is gonna die and maybe matoya? just a guess dont know why i think about her xD