Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

Pressing separate buttons adds an additional layer of execution the game sorely needs. Most content is already braindead scripted, imagine having to do it while only pressing one button over and over again. People already rejected the changes to healer that have you doing just that.

We might as well put one button on DDR mats or guitar hero controllers at this rate.

Next people will be asking "why cant we just automate the game?".

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Next people will be asking "why we can't just automate the game".

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Players have tried to macro their rotation for a loooooong time.
Part of me feels like this 111 idea is a compromise of sorts, but ultimately I find this topic interesting because of the discussion it's hovering around: which is more valuable, executing a more complicated rotation or executing more complicated mechanics.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pressing separate buttons adds an additional layer of execution the game sorely needs. Most content is already braindead scripted, imagine having to do it while only pressing one button over and over again. People already rejected the changes to healer that have you doing just that.

We might as well put one button on DDR mats or guitar hero controllers at this rate.

Next people will be asking "why cant we just automate the game?".

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The basic 1-2-3 combo of every class is pretty basic and mostly filler between bursts. It's the first one you get, the first you commit to muscle memory, it's easy and straightforward and generally the least punishing to mess up. Freeing up buttons means they could add more interesting (and punishing if messed up) skills to the rotation. But these basic combos contribute least in terms of difficulty and are as close to pointless button bloat as it gets. The two follow ups from DRG at least have two different positionals in quick succession, but the two 1-2-3 combos before that are once again as basic as it gets.
I completely understand why people would rather see them (and skills that are mutually exclusive) consolidated into a single button to make room for more interesting skills. Of course that's all under the assumptions that we won't simply get as much as possible consolidated without getting anything in return.
Mudra, Blood/ Life cycle, Third Eye are interesting mechanics that add a layer of difficulty and make room for optimization. I'd trade 1-2-3 for more of that any day.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pressing separate buttons adds an additional layer of execution the game sorely needs. Most content is already braindead scripted, imagine having to do it while only pressing one button over and over again. People already rejected the changes to healer that have you doing just that.

We might as well put one button on DDR mats or guitar hero controllers at this rate.

Next people will be asking "why cant we just automate the game?".

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This is such a dumb argument. Press 123 isn't any more complex or deep than 111. This is always the reason people give for not waningd this changes and it is straight up bull. Stop trying to act like pointless hotbar blat add complexity to the game. Nothing we have asked for would make the combat less complicated than it already is, it would be the same number of button presses and same apm.

If you are against this change please give a logical reason for God's sake. I've seen these threads for years and have NEVER seen a reason against this change that make since

having to press diferent buttons for 1 or multiple combos add the risk you fat fingered or you hit the wrong/same key making you break you combo and probably mess with your rotation a bit depending of what job are you playing, having everything in 1 buttom you literally remove that factor and it's simplification since it literally makes the player reduce the amount of diferent buttons they need to use to execute they rotations so yes it makes the game easier.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pressing separate buttons adds an additional layer of execution the game sorely needs.

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It literally doesn't. A button press is a button press regardless if it is 1/4 inch away from another or if it's the same button pressed 3 times.

The skill gap in FFXIV is all about maximizing OGCD usage.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah, being able to push 1, 1, then one of 3 other buttons is def a nice workaround. Heck, if there are more buttons for bread and butter attacks maybe we could get more elaborate combo trees like we used to have. I know tanks used to have a debuff combo, and until ShB they also had enmity combos too.
Would you prefer the extra hotbar space go to more room for the trees? Or would you rather they use that real estate for something new?

You can't think of any situation where it's a good idea?
How about the example that's come up, what, thrice now about breaking your combo as PLD to immediately hit an add or a new boss with a DoT as soon as they spawn?
And I know as WAR add phases and awkwardly long untargetable animations sometimes cause me to break my combo just to keep my buff active.

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I think managing enmity is boring and I'd rather the space go towards more elaborate DPS combos for tanks, if anything. Even if they didn't add anything new, however, just freeing up the real estate is still a win. There's no value to leaving it as 1-2-3; the basic combos aren't engaging or difficult, they lose nothing when being consolidated. All the "blah blah dumbing down the game," stuff in response to this suggestion is just nonsense.

As for the rest, I'm not sure if I'm quite understanding the problem. The PLD DoT and WAR buff are both alternate combo finishers; you don't have to break your combo to execute them, and breaking your combo wouldn't allow you to execute them faster.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think managing enmity is boring and I'd rather the space go towards more elaborate DPS combos for tanks, if anything. Even if they didn't add anything new, however, just freeing up the real estate is still a win.

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Yo I feel you here bud.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

As for the rest, I'm not sure if I'm quite understanding the problem. The PLD DoT and WAR buff are both alternate combo finishers; you don't have to break your combo to execute them, and breaking your combo wouldn't allow you to execute them faster.

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So as PLD, if I see the target is about to disappear (add about to die, boss about to become untargetable, w/e), and know I have 4 GCDs left, I can go 1212......3 instead of 1231......23 and taking an extra GCD to DoT the target.

Or for War you can do the opposite and break whatever combo you're in so you end on 3 to refresh your buff before downtime.

It's not supah phat tech, it doesn't change your parse to any notable degree, but you're not gonna find a very deep reason to push 123 differently.
So here are a few examples of small situational reasons to break your combo. I'm sure I could think up examples for other classes, but I don't play many at a high level lol.

Are these niche situations worth keeping 123 over 111?
I dunno.
But again, that part of the convo isn't what I'm here for lol

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Originally Posted by ItMe

So if I see the target is about to disappear (add about to die, boss about to become untargetable, w/e), and know I have 4 GCDs left, I can go 1212...[thing disappears, new target appears]...3 instead of 1231...23 and taking an extra GCD to DoT the target.

Or for War you can do the opposite and break your combo to end on 3 to refresh your buff before downtime.

It's not supah deep, it doesn't make or break your parse to any notable degree, but there are reasons to break your combo. I'm sure I could think up examples for other classes, but I don't play many at a high level lol.

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Knowing you have exactly 4GCD's until a mob dies or invulnerability phase starts up is something that will rarely, if ever, happen, but I guess that is one use for breaking combos if you're trying to extreme min/max something.

There's no reason that throwing the basic combo buttons onto different keybinds couldn't still be an option; but 99.99999% of the time I'd still want them consolidated, though.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It literally doesn't. A button press is a button press regardless if it is 1/4 inch away from another or if it's the same button pressed 3 times.

The skill gap in FFXIV is all about maximizing OGCD usage.

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Not really. Most optimization is more encounter specific, and there are many in the game that require unique approaches in regards to combo usage and gcd manipulation. Even in low-end content like Matoya's Relict, encounters like the second and third boss take pretty unique approaches from some jobs to optimize. There's a reason 'PLD spreadsheets' is a meme.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Knowing you have exactly 4GCD's until an add dies or invulnerability phase starts up is something that will rarely, if ever, happen, but I guess that is one use for breaking combos if you're trying to extreme min/max something.

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Huh... maybe I've just been farming the same raids too much if I have the timing down this tight : P

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

There's no reason that throwing the basic combo buttons onto different keybinds couldn't still be an option; but 99.99999% of the time I'd still want them consolidated, though.

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Options are good.
And as long as SQEX is clever about how they make it work with combo trees so as not to inhibit them, I really don't see how this option is bad yo.

(Also, sorry, I didnt see you respond so I was still editing my original comment when you quoted me. Doesn't really change anything but... whoops)

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Huh... maybe I've just been farming the same raids too much if I have the timing down this tight : P

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lol, if you want to scrutinize a fight to that degree I'm sure you can/have, but most people won't and it's NEVER necessary. I'm sure having the option to do it is fun for some people, though, and I don't really want to take that away from them.

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Originally Posted by shao32

having to press diferent buttons for 1 or multiple combos add the risk you fat fingered or you hit the wrong/same key making you break you combo and probably mess with your rotation a bit depending of what job are you playing, having everything in 1 buttom you literally remove that factor and it's simplification since it literally makes the player reduce the amount of diferent buttons they need to use to execute they rotations so yes it makes the game easier.

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I think I'm done with the thread...

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Huh... maybe I've just been farming the same raids too much if I have the timing down this tight : P

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Don't worry, most high-end players take phase timings and kill times into account, and it's particularly important on paladin with how they're able to branch their combo and manipulate their GCD.

A lot of people in this thread are just kind of posturing and talking about things they don't actually have knowledge about.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Pressing separate buttons adds an additional layer of execution the game sorely needs. Most content is already braindead scripted, imagine having to do it while only pressing one button over and over again. People already rejected the changes to healer that have you doing just that.

We might as well put one button on DDR mats or guitar hero controllers at this rate.

Next people will be asking "why cant we just automate the game?".

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Honestly, good point, some jobs are already boring enough, and if they're going to shift skills to only be on one button they better give us something else to occupy our attention in its place

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Players have tried to macro their rotation for a loooooong time.
Part of me feels like this 111 idea is a compromise of sorts, but ultimately I find this topic interesting because of the discussion it's hovering around: which is more valuable, executing a more complicated rotation or executing more complicated mechanics.

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Considering that SE has wanted healers to do more healing and less damage, and the only places where this philosophy actually applies is in savage/ultimates, I don't really trust SE with trying to give us more complicated mechanics.

Maybe I'm just becoming cynical at this point but any time SE tries to simplify something it usually just ends up making the job more boring and sacrifices job identity for making it accessible to anyone, which is nice for new players but for people who have been playing for years it just results in less interesting and less varied gameplay.

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of abilities being merged into the same button. Aside from hopefully helping players perform their rotations better, it leaves room for some interesting abilities to be added in place of the 'lost' button presses.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Knowing you have exactly 4GCD's until a mob dies or invulnerability phase starts up is something that will rarely, if ever, happen, but I guess that is one use for breaking combos if you're trying to extreme min/max something.

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This is incorrect. When one does a fight enough on a specific job, they learn exactly how many GCDs they can get away with before a boss jumps—or how to time their attacks to maximize uptime. Even people that don’t do “extreme min/max”. For example, in UCoB, I know exactly when I can get away with using Heavy Shot, and when I need to Iron Jaws refresh my DoTs before a Trio so that they are still there when Bahamut returns. And I am far from min-maxing BRD these days. Likewise with DNC in E12S: I know how many GCDs I can get in before the boss goes truly untargetable during Advanced Relativity. This is just something perceptive players pick up naturally the more they do a fight.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Knowing you have exactly 4GCD's until a mob dies or invulnerability phase starts up is something that will rarely, if ever, happen, but I guess that is one use for breaking combos if you're trying to extreme min/max something.

There's no reason that throwing the basic combo buttons onto different keybinds couldn't still be an option; but 99.99999% of the time I'd still want them consolidated, though.

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What he's describing and what you're saying never happens is called 'optimization' and lots of people do it, consciously or no.

My $0.02 is I don't trust SE to replace what we got with something better, so I'm going to stick with the devil I know.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is incorrect. When one does a fight enough on a specific job, they learn exactly how many GCDs they can get away with before a boss jumps—or how to time their attacks to maximize uptime. Even people that don’t do “extreme min/max”. For example, in UCoB, I know exactly when I can get away with using Heavy Shot, and when I need to Iron Jaws refresh my DoTs before a Trio so that they are still there when Bahamut returns. And I am far from min-maxing BRD these days. Likewise with DNC in E12S: I know how many GCDs I can get in before the boss goes truly untargetable during Advanced Relativity. This is just something perceptive players pick up naturally the more they do a fight.

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Alright, so in how many fights exactly do you end up at the first step of your basic combo exactly 4GCDs before an invuln phase or an add phase? I wasn't saying that optimization was something that rarely happens; I was saying the specific example provided rarely happens.

Even if that actually does happen a lot, it's literally 1 tick of the PLD's incredibly weak DoT you're gaining... Who cares? I get that these kinds of optimizations are fun for some people, and I'm not really looking to take them away. The reality is, however, they're not a compelling argument against button consolidation.

Regardless, the answer to this talking point was already provided in this thread. Make consolidation an option.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the example given likely isn't even a DPS gain. With 4GCDs to use it's 1212 then 3 on the add to get the dot up immediately, as opposed to 1231 then 2 and 3 to get the dot up on the add 1 GCD later. First off, 1231 is more damage than 1212. Second off, the combo modifier on 2 is probably worth more than the extra tick of 3 you're losing.

While pressing 123 vs 111 might not make some huge difference in "complexity"(although it certainly does some), the main thing is how it affects "engagement" - which is what actually matters 100% of the time when it comes to game design. When people ask for things to be more complex, it's not really about some stupid bragging rights and ego of "playing a harder thing" - it's about the difficulty providing a challenge and thus more engagement. Sometimes things can in fact be more engaging without being considerably harder, just like some difficulty might occasionally not be engaging but only annoying.

You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".

Now, there are absolutely games with consolidated combos which are actually more engaging than the FFXIV combination system. There are games which only allow for something like 8 or 10 skills on your hotbars at the time instead of the "piano rotations" of this game and somehow manage to make their combat systems feel more complex and fun.
However the difference is these games usually have way faster gcd speed(if any), more branching in their combos, more reactive class mechanics(proc based combos, generally procs being a game mechanic instead of "job identity"), more dynamic resource management, waaaay lower cooldowns(seriously, the fact that 30 seconds is considered a "low cd" in FFXIV is hilarious when you look at other games where 20 seconds is considered "long cd") and not nearly as scripted fights, possibly with some actual reactive dodging involved. Comparing the number of buttons in FFXIV to games with so vastly different gameplays isn't really fair at all.

A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Don't worry, most high-end players take phase timings and kill times into account, and it's particularly important on paladin with how they're able to branch their combo and manipulate their GCD.

A lot of people in this thread are just kind of posturing and talking about things they don't actually have knowledge about.

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For almost 9 pages almost everyone who was against this idea only wrote that pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 is so much more difficult and that removing that will make every class horribly dumbed down. And people responded that no, pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 is, in fact, not so much more difficult.
Leaving the option to assign them seperately is a nice idea but the chances are unlikely that SE will add more interesting skills.

Given that they would add more interesting skills, it would most likely be a choice between
1) keeping it as it is and some classes will have a few times thoughout a whole fight where they have to use their combo in an unusual order
2) having another interesting mechanic/ skill for the whole fight

I'd wager that if they consolidated combos and added another interesting skill/ mechanic, you'll have even more fun optimizing that for a whole fight. Skill pruning will happen but many would rather see skills pruned/ consolidated that add very little for 99% of the fight and make room for skills that do instead of keeping everything as it is and risk losing more interesting skills because the basic 1-2-3 can't be touched.
You brought up a good argument with phase transitions but it seems you have yet to understand the other side of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

You might not consciously realize that, but for your brain moving the finger slightly before pressing another button is a bit more stimulating than just pressing the same button over and over and it helps with engagement. We can already see this issue on a smaller scale in how plenty of people dislike the "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" buffs on many jobs

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Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.

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and on a bigger scale with how many more people hate the new healer "rotations".

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The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Part of the problem is that most of the jobs that are complained about for their "press this button 5 times in 10 seconds" burst buffs those burst use the same button that is already being hit quite regularly. There is a fair amount of difference in engagement between spamming Bloodletter/Fellcleave 5 times and casting Holy Spirit 5 times when you are already hitting Bloodletter/Fellcleave every 7th or so gcd.

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Erm, and that is an argument against my point... how? The combos are the bread and butter of all melee rotations so they're an even bigger part of the gcd contribution than the gauge spenders like BS or FC. Some jobs don't even have gcd spenders or other "solo gcds" to break up the combo monotony at all.

With the example of DRK, right now Bloodspiller button is pressed about 6 times per minute while each of the combo buttons is pressed a little over 6 times per minute. That means a consolidated "Souleater Combo" button would be pressed over three times as much as Bloodspiller is right now and with way shorter breaks in between. If somebody's already sick of mashing BS, they'd be far more sick of mashing this new "combo button".
Even in case of jobs with branching combos, most would still end up spamming quite a lot, just with one or two other gcd buttons to press(also 2-3 times in a row) every now and then for the buff/dot upkeep - which is not much unlike how WHM will occasionally press Dia or one of their afflatus GCDs or how SCH will use Biolysis and Ruin II.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The healer dps spell spam is more the result of problems elsewhere. A button that was intended to be hit only on occasion is being spammed constantly due to disconnects between healer design and fight design.

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The intention doesn't matter in the slightest - all that's relevant is the actual result and its conclusion, which is that many people don't enjoy spending majority of the fight spamming one gcd button over and over.

I support the idea. While mostly everyone in this thread is against it because it "Dumbs Down" the game and makes it a one button spam they fail to realize that SE could have taken this route with combo actions and kept other actions/skills instead of getting rid of them. So while it takes 3 skills and condenses them into a 1 button combo skill it'll make more room for various other skills that SE could have kept on the Job/Class or add new ones.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I'd wager that if they consolidated combos and added another interesting skill/ mechanic, you'll have even more fun optimizing that for a whole fight. Skill pruning will happen but many would rather see skills pruned/ consolidated that add very little for 99% of the fight and make room for skills that do instead of keeping everything as it is and risk losing more interesting skills because the basic 1-2-3 can't be touched.
You brought up a good argument with phase transitions but it seems you have yet to understand the other side of the argument.

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Based on...? Because the past two expansions have shown precisely the opposite. For ease of comparison, lets simplify both sides. People in favor of combo consolidation are essentially expecting/wanting a return to job complexity similar to Heavensward Dark Knight. Conversely, those of us on the opposing side have no belief whatsoever the devs will do anything of the sort and their big reveal will be more akin to "Inner Release Mastery" where now you spam five Inner Beasts! So creativity, OH EMM GEE!!

Jesting aside, I certainly can't speak for everyone but I'd be far more willing to embrace combo consolidation if SE actually went in the former direction, or even took a step further. How often do you see tanks wanting additional combos? Give Dragoon a third combo or have Vorpal Thrust weave into Full Thrust for a new effect. In other words, give us some meaningful engagement if we're going to lose the, admittedly, minute amount we have. A primarily complaint with Bard this expansion is despite having roughly the same rotation, the job feels completely gutted. Iron Jaws buff snapshotting and Foe's were ultimately something you didn't interact with often but enough to give the job a unique feel that no longer exists. That isn't to say combos are on the same level, but to highlight how small things can have a bigger impact.

Perhaps I'm too jaded with how simplified Shadowbringers made everything. I just do not believe we'll see much innovation with job design despite all this new hotbar space.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

I support the idea. While mostly everyone in this thread is against it because it "Dumbs Down" the game and makes it a one button spam they fail to realize that SE could have taken this route with combo actions and kept other actions/skills instead of getting rid of them. So while it takes 3 skills and condenses them into a 1 button combo skill it'll make more room for various other skills that SE could have kept on the Job/Class or add new ones.

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They could also, you know, remove the myriad of useless abilities that still remain. Repelling Shot, Piercing Talon, Fluid Aura, Seigan Fist stances, Shield Bash and etc. Some abilities were removed simply because they were "too hard," like Heavy Thrust and Straight Shot. Simply put, many skills pruned weren't necessarily due to space but to make the jobs more simplified. Therefore, they were always going to be targeted regardless of compressed combos. Meanwhile, we still have several abilities so useless, they don't even make it on most hotbars. In fact, Cure I may stand as the best example; being dubbed the "newbie trap" because of how inefficient it is. So we have plenty of skills they can drop without touching any of the ones we actually use.

I think it's fine - if it's an optional thing. I could see it being implemented more as an extension of macros rather than a game-wide change, actually.

One could argue that it dumbs down the game for them - and be correct. Another will argue that it simplifies things in a way that makes it easier for them/others who might have difficulties - and be correct. It just feels like the most positive thing to do would be to add it as a feature for folks who want to/need to use it... And communicate how it's meant to be used properly, while not pushing it as mandatory for everybody.

Easier said than done, of course, but it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

For some reason there are people who are REALLY deadset on pressing 1-2-3 and are vehemently against pressing 1-1-1.

3 button presses either way, but one has 3 dedicated buttons and one has only 1 dedicated button.

Maybe, JUST maybe if they actually did that, SE would have a reason to stop taking away abilities, repackaging them and giving them back to us at later levels.

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Yep.. Can't help but laugh when people argue against this idea because "muh dumbing down" when they aren't even getting the most out of the jobs they play to begin with and mostly do not even step foot in anything more difficult than a normal raid. It's laughable at best and not convincing to me in the slightest.

PVP-style combo buttons should absolutely be an option. Forcing each individual step in every combo to be its own separate button serves no purpose, does not make gameplay any more complicated, in fact accomplishes nothing but button bloat. Adding these combo buttons into PVE content would free up all kinds of hotbar space and even allow them to add more skills and more depth to the current jobs if desired while maintaining the same level of accessibility.

1-2-3 is not difficulty. It is not complexity. It is needless button bloat when 1-1-1 would work just fine while also allowing you to replace the 2-3 with other skills.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

A lot of people here seem to hope that with less hotbar space spent on combos, devs could add more complexity in new skills, but to that I have to ask - have you paid any attention at all for the last four years? The current game direction is definitely not suggesting anything close to that, in fact SE is rather hell-bent on removing any sort of difficulty from the jobs and streamlining anything remotely demanding. It's already started to a degree with transition from HW to SB, but for SHB it's practically the theme of the entire expansion and it's doubtful that it'll change anytime soon - especially with all the blind praise and new players the expac has brought just because the story was great.
Many of us just don't believe at all that devs would use the consolidation for anything interesting and for a good reason, so we want to at least keep any tiny bits we have left.

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I have. I've been playing since 2.0 and I am relatively intelligent enough to get the reason that the devs do certain things whether I agree with them or not.

1) Dots. Every job used to have some sort of DoT. SE removed the majority of them because mobs / bosses were hitting the debuff slot limit.

2) Like it or not, button bloat is absolutely a thing. And it's even more of a consideration in FFXIV when you have to have the limited buttons to map to a controller. There are only so many LB RB combinations, and not all of those actions can be used for attacks.

Why do you think that SE routinely takes abilities away, combines them and gives them back to the player at a later level.

The easiest example of this is the healer ability Divine Seal from White Mages. Pre-Stormblood this was a WHM only spell, then given to all healers as Largesse as a role action, then taken away again and given back to WHM's as Temperance.

Temperance is nothing more than Divine Seal combined with Protect (10% damage reduction).

WoW has done the same thing reducing buttons. Again, like it or not, there can only be so much "complexity" until a job feels bloated. The old DRG opener was a meme for a reason.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The developers said that the PvP combo system was implemented in that content to allow players to focus on the strategies of PvP environments rather than on a rotation.

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Which is funny since in almost all content brute force > strategy. Kind of a moot point, if you ask me. :/

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Originally Posted by Satarn

While pressing 123 vs 111 might not make some huge difference in "complexity"(although it certainly does some), the main thing is how it affects "engagement" - which is what actually matters 100% of the time when it comes to game design. When people ask for things to be more complex, it's not really about some stupid bragging rights and ego of "playing a harder thing" - it's about the difficulty providing a challenge and thus more engagement. Sometimes things can in fact be more engaging without being considerably harder, just like some difficulty might occasionally not be engaging but only annoying.

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To be fair, I see where you're coming from.
I remember hating playing with a keyboard since pressing 1 2 3 isn't gaming for me (or using a keyboard at all). It feels like data entry.

I gave the console version a try and it [felt] like night and day so I gave it another shot and ended up tolerating the combat way more. So, I guess I agree? lol

I just don't want to see more skills being removed. :( Unkess it's one of these absolutely boring abilities you press like once every 30 seconds and that do damage and that's it. No positionals, no HP requirement (like for PLD) etc. These can get replaced. :D

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Erm, and that is an argument against my point... how?

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It was actually an attempt to support your point and focus where the problem actually lies. Suddenly spamming the same button you are already pushing regularly is not very engaging unless there is something that makes it feel different.

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With the example of DRK, right now Bloodspiller button is pressed about 6 times per minute while each of the combo buttons is pressed a little over 6 times per minute. That means a consolidated "Souleater Combo" button would be pressed over three times as much as Bloodspiller is right now and with way shorter breaks in between. If somebody's already sick of mashing BS, they'd be far more sick of mashing this new "combo button".

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One of the biggest problems with DRK is that it only has 4 single target weaponskills. The 3 of the weaponskills are a single combo while the remaining weaponskill is both a gaugespender and spam button. If the only effect of combo compression was going from 1-2-3-1-2-3-4 to 1-1-1-1-1-1-2 that would be bad design.

Good design would do something like adding Scourge back in as a 15 second non-interrupting DoT and an alternative combo ender that applies or extends a Haste buff (i.e. a combined Skill Speed+Spell Speed buff) in addition to combo compression. 1-1-1-2-1-1-3-4-1-1-3-2-1-1-1-4 is much more engaging than 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4 even though it uses the exact same number of buttons.

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Even in case of jobs with branching combos, most would still end up spamming quite a lot, just with one or two other gcd buttons to press(also 2-3 times in a row) every now and then for the buff/dot upkeep - which is not much unlike how WHM will occasionally press Dia or one of their afflatus GCDs or how SCH will use Biolysis and Ruin II.

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Many games use single button progressive combos (often with branches) and they do not come off as boring mostly due to steps of the single button combo having visual differences. A fair amount of the complaints about Glare spam would likely quite down if it rotated through the visuals of Stone 3, Stone 4 and Glare.

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The intention doesn't matter in the slightest - all that's relevant is the actual result and its conclusion, which is that many people don't enjoy spending majority of the fight spamming one gcd button over and over.

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Actually it is fairly important, you don't actually fix a flawed design by focusing solely on the resulting effects. You compare the intended effects and the resulting effects and look for the causes of the effects you do not desire.

Can they at least do it with the Continuation gunbreaker combo? I know it's to weave a 1 second cooldown with the gcd skills but why not make the gnashing fang combo pieces 1 second cool downs? And stack the continuation actions/10 second buff on top of the actions so you press each button twice? So it removes one skill. It's hard enough weaving other skills like Bow Stock, Sonic Break in it without accidentally skipping continuation.

I used to place my gap closer on CH(cross hotbar) 1 LX(left side X) but with Gunbreakers Continuation combo being so important I had to move gap closers on all tanks in CH 2 LX

I honestly don't think it would be so bad if they consolidated combo actions, but made it optional and also made it so that we have the same number of skills at 80 now as we do in 6.0, while also adding some new ones.

I'm not going to hold my breath though since every expansion we seem to magically lose a lot of skills only to gain some back but have some lost forever.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You are about the 1000th person to ask this. And every time it gets answered with the same thing.... STOP TRYING TO MAKE FFXIV SO DUMBED DOWN ITS A ONE BUTTON GAME! It’s bad enough SE guts jobs every expansion, it’s bad enough jobs like mch which was once the most complex and a lot of fun Is now considered the easiest. It’s time to make the game a bit more complex not less.

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I'm not sure what makes you think pressing 123 is more complex than pressing 1, 3 times lol.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

I'm now confused about the thread calling for more button reduction..

actually sometimes you people here confuse me. You want one thing and then you don't want that thing. x_x;;

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It's almost like there is more than one person posting what they'd like to see in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

**snippity snip** ... but honestly you want one button combos you can setup a macro in the game. in facto you can almost do a complete rotation with the macro system on certain jobs.

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This the best response to the original post. If you want to have your combos on one button, make a macro. If you don't know how, ask. I'll be happy to help you!

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I'm not sure what makes you think pressing 123 is more complex than pressing 1, 3 times lol.

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I don't think it's a question of complexity. An individual can push either rotation just as easily.

In my mind, it's a matter of how engaging it is to push one three times versus one, two, three. I'd argue that pushing one, two, three holds my interest more. I'm moving my finger from one button to another while keeping track of which ability I should be pushing the button for next.

Meanwhile, pushing one button repeatedly becomes tedious because there is little finger movement, no ability tracking, and no decision making.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

You are about the 1000th person to ask this. And every time it gets answered with the same thing.... STOP TRYING TO MAKE FFXIV SO DUMBED DOWN ITS A ONE BUTTON GAME! It’s bad enough SE guts jobs every expansion, it’s bad enough jobs like mch which was once the most complex and a lot of fun Is now considered the easiest. It’s time to make the game a bit more complex not less.

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SE guts jobs every expansion because they've hit the soft 'button limit' on controller support, but have to keep adding more skills to sell the class in the upcoming expansion. so they prune down the class to make room for this and spread their skills and passive thinner and thinner every time.

...which could be alleviated by condensing down some actions (perhaps as an optional setting in a menu somewhere like hotbar/WXHB settings, rather than forcing it on everyone) into things like autocombos (standard 123 loops and aoe combos), toggles (dreadwyrm trance -> deathflare -> DWT, etc), or any other possible means, since (optionally) reducing the buttons-to-press number would allow them to add more skills without needing to remove others every 2 years.

folks on keyboard+mouse don't need those settings since there's more than enough hotbar space for anything and everything but who knows, some folks might benefit from it too.

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

folks on keyboard+mouse don't need those settings since there's more than enough hotbar space for anything and everything but who knows, some folks might benefit from it too.

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Controllers have 8 cross hotbars of 16 buttons each. That’s effectively 128 button spaces for actions and shortcuts. Most jobs can fix everything comfortably onto 2 crossbars—both easily accessible via the L2+R2 / R2+L2 expanded crossbar with no cycling through the bars required. There’s only one or two that reach that 32-button cap (PLD and GNB come to mind). This isn’t even counting the additional 16 that the W crossbar adds. While the W cross could be a bit more responsive, implying that controller users are the ones hurting for hotbar space is incorrect. I’ve played this game on controller for over 5 years and never struggled with hotbar space.

It’s also possible for controller users to keybind actions to regular crossbars to either click or access via keyboard. I play on PC and use a hybrid setup of controller and keybinds. Excess buttons that aren’t used that often I have bound to my numpad to free up actions that are used more often (e.g., healer and tank LBs are on there; role actions such as Head Graze that have a 1 fight per tier use). All key shortcuts and gear set shortcuts are also set to regular hotbars (which I simply click to swap between). This is possible to do on console by buying a cheap Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse, and does not require an extremely expensive setup. You can also just use the DualShock touchpad to touch gearsets, though it’s not as quick.

Some jobs that were pruned going into ShB never had issues with hotbar real estate. The developers outright mentioned that some skills were removed simply because of difficulties in upkeep or to close the skill gap between less skilled players and more skilled players. Some skills were removed due to overpoweredness (AST Time Dilation and Royal Road come to mind), due to job changes (other AST card skills such as Spread), and just general reworks to jobs at a basic level (TP-restore Tactician; tank aggro combos). Some skills could absolutely be removed and/or upgraded through traits—but I don’t think everything needs consolidation.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Controllers have 8 cross hotbars of 16 buttons each. That’s effectively 128 button spaces for actions and shortcuts. Most jobs can fix everything comfortably onto 2 crossbars—both easily accessible via the L2+R2 / R2+L2 expanded crossbar with no cycling through the bars required. There’s only one or two that reach that 32-button cap (PLD and GNB come to mind). This isn’t even counting the additional 16 that the W crossbar adds. While the W cross could be a bit more responsive, implying that controller users are the ones hurting for hotbar space is incorrect. I’ve played this game on controller for over 5 years and never struggled with hotbar space.

It’s also possible for controller users to keybind actions to regular crossbars to either click or access via keyboard. I play on PC and use a hybrid setup of controller and keybinds. Excess buttons that aren’t used that often I have bound to my numpad to free up actions that are used more often (e.g., healer and tank LBs are on there; role actions such as Head Graze that have a 1 fight per tier use). All key shortcuts and gear set shortcuts are also set to regular hotbars (which I simply click to swap between). This is possible to do on console by buying a cheap Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse, and does not require an extremely expensive setup. You can also just use the DualShock touchpad to touch gearsets, though it’s not as quick.

Some jobs that were pruned going into ShB never had issues with hotbar real estate. The developers outright mentioned that some skills were removed simply because of difficulties in upkeep or to close the skill gap between less skilled players and more skilled players. Some skills were removed due to overpoweredness (AST Time Dilation and Royal Road come to mind), due to job changes (other AST card skills such as Spread), and just general reworks to jobs at a basic level (TP-restore Tactician; tank aggro combos). Some skills could absolutely be removed and/or upgraded through traits—but I don’t think everything needs consolidation.

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128 button spaces? Holy crow that's a lot of buttons!

PVP kits are simplified versions of PVE so it makes sense to strip away a few layers and mechs

As for the topic, it would be weirdly specific on which jobs get it since most rotations arent a simple 1-2-3 no job has that much of a mundane rotation (besides MCH), DRG need to branch out for disembowel and chaos, Ninja with there Huton extention in armor break, MNK is all over the place, SAM would be entirely pointless as its too fluid. This would only benefit GNB rotations, MCH rotation, mayybe DNC which is only 1 button, RDM physical finisher and most of the aoes.