So, what's your opinion on current healer jobs

I'm hoping for chemist and with it more healer gear that isn't just a white robe or dress.

Healing is my least favourite role overall, mostly because I'm not the biggest fan of the gear or animations associated with the role. I like AST most in terms of aesthetics and weapon, though if we're talking pure game-play then WHM just seems to have the best kit overall. I miss AST's original card system, since it seemed to give a healer more to do in the midst of battle - especially if they decided to put a card where it'd have the most benefit.

I finally touched AST for the first time since SHB launch.

New card system is garbage, just like everybody told me. At first I was a little excited, cause Draw automatically Spreads(holds) your card in reserve while the card CD goes. I was like, "Oh boy, I can hold this, and buff two people during their own buffs/party buffs." Then I used Draw again, and it automatically replaced the held card... I mean, sure I should have seen that coming, since there's no spread action anymore, but oh my freakin' god.

Earlier Gravity acquisition is nice. Haven't gotten it up past 70, but yeah I don't think beyond leveling it that I want to play it compared to the other two healers at all. Gimme back old cards, Royal Road, Spread, and all that.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

New card system is garbage, just like everybody told me. At first I was a little excited, cause Draw automatically Spreads(holds) your card in reserve while the card CD goes. I was like, "Oh boy, I can hold this, and buff two people during their own buffs/party buffs." Then I used Draw again, and it automatically replaced the held card... I mean, sure I should have seen that coming, since there's no spread action anymore, but oh my freakin' god.

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This seems like an odd complaint to have, in comparison to the card effects themselves.
This bothered me for all of 30 minutes back in July last year until I figured out you just need to use the card you have before hitting Draw...

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Something I feel is topical is IMO MP fails as a resource. For most play experiences, while there are exceptions (like prog or a disastrous alliance raid), the MP cost of spells doesn't feel like it is creating interesting choices or meaning. It feels like, if you ran out of MP, you made a mechanical error in not hitting Lucid Dreaming early enough and... is this really what we want it to come down to? Hitting Lucid Dreaming every minute?

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If the mechanics boil down to 'hitting lucid dreaming on cooldown' and that's the complaint that gets heard. Then their next step will be to remove MP.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If the mechanics boil down to 'hitting lucid dreaming on cooldown' and that's the complaint that gets heard. Then their next step will be to remove MP.

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I sincerely doubt MP will ever be removed simply because its a huge stable of Final Fantasy. TP never had that sort of status in the franchise, and frankly, existed because of how 1.0 was designed. If anything, they'll reduce the MP cost of spells so Lucid Dreaming matters a lot less. Granted, I'd prefer they actually do make MP more interesting as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

If the mechanics boil down to 'hitting lucid dreaming on cooldown' and that's the complaint that gets heard. Then their next step will be to remove MP.

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I'd hope they would look at where MP works now, and apply it.

Where is MP effective as a design? PLD, DRK, and BLM. Of course it works here because it's basically a glorified job gauge with the benefit of passive regen and... that's not a bad thing. I like it on DRK because it feels like a valuable resource you can do awesome things with, and you always want more.

For healers, I think making the weaker baseline stuff like Cure 1, Medica 1, attack spells free to use, will let them look at MP more like other job gauges are looked at. It could be a great opportunity to make it feel like something awesome to have and you can't have enough of.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This seems like an odd complaint to have, in comparison to the card effects themselves.
This bothered me for all of 30 minutes back in July last year until I figured out you just need to use the card you have before hitting Draw...

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As opposed to the old system, where using the card was the same button as Draw, and to hold a card was a separate, and superior ability wherein you could hold the card indefinitely if you had a better purpose in mind for it/the next card drawn wasn't useful in your current situation.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As opposed to the old system, where using the card was the same button as Draw, and to hold a card was a separate, and superior ability wherein you could hold the card indefinitely if you had a better purpose in mind for it/the next card drawn wasn't useful in your current situation.

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I'm saying it's just a matter of adjusting to different buttons. The end result is the same.
You can still use two cards back to back by simply pressing the buttons in a different order.

Given that cards only do one thing now, there's no reason to save one indefinitely, but you can still save it until your get your next one to use two at once.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'm saying it's just a matter of adjusting to different buttons. The end result is the same.
You can still use two cards back to back by simply pressing the buttons in a different order.

Given that cards only do one thing now, there's no reason to save one indefinitely, but you can still save it until your get your next one to use two at once.

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It just makes the loss of Spread and Royal Road felt all the more keenly. :(

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As opposed to the old system, where using the card was the same button as Draw, and to hold a card was a separate, and superior ability wherein you could hold the card indefinitely if you had a better purpose in mind for it/the next card drawn wasn't useful in your current situation.

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Yep this is something that still bothers me.

It was faster to use the card you just drew with the same action. I had arranged my hotbars in a very specific way, and placing the new action within reach would have made me move healing abilities further to my right. I am right handed, so I have my most important abilities on the left side of the keyboard to press with my free hand.

Clicking is significantly slower for me as I have to look at my hotbar and drag the cursor to click. Plus, since I move with the mouse I can't move while clicking on the action. Yes, it is "quick" but you do it repeatedly since it's a core mechanic. It is still annoying :/

My issue with healers currently is not not much the kits or feel of the jobs in terms of job identity, but more so the lack of things to keep track of. I get that they will not give healers more complex dps tool kit, but I really wish they would give us back the option to use old cleric stance, not much would change in terms of raids with a static, but old cleric stance at least for me made healing dungeons and pug groups always thrilling since I was able to push myself and provided tangible feedback of how well I was doing on a personal level.

I haven't been a healer main since Heavensward but...

WHM feels amazing, I haven't played that job since I started back in ARR since it always felt rather bland and boring and it's rather fun now. I think it's in a good spot overall but I miss stoneskin and it desperately needs the ability to spend lilies on dps.

SCH was gutted but it makes sense since it was too strong. Art of War doesn't really fit the whole SCH theme and I think it should have a different AoE option. As a smooth brain dps main I enjoy playing SCH now since it's alot easier to understand, similarly how I enjoy SMN now because it isn't a clusterfuck of different themes, outdated abilities and weirdness overall.

AST was the only healer I ever mained and I hate what they did to my baby. I understand fishing for balance was annoying for raiders but instead of destroying everything that made it amazing with the lore and everything it would've been alot better to just simply give AST the ability to pick a card (balance) guaranteed on a cooldown similarly to how SCH's Recitation works on a 90 sec. cooldown. The seal system is neat but overall AST just feels extremely bland to me. Also why the hell did they remove the stun on celestial opposition when WHM can spam that shit with holy? Also I'm not a fan of having Draw and Play be different abilities...feels just weird and a few of ASTs abilties feel like unnecessary button bloat instead of combining or overwriting certain slots/abilties but that's a problem that a few jobs suffer from.

So I think WHM is currently in a good spot and enjoyable to play, SCH was made alot easier and streamlined which helps ME enjoy playing it, but I understand healer mains who hate how easy it is now too. AST...well they still need to do some work on that. Overall I'm curious to see what kind of healer we'll get with 6.0...and we better get one...and how SE will handle the job balance overall. I wonder if they're gonna keep healers and tanks streamlined and relatively easy due to their added responsibility of keeping the party alive or if we get some complexity back...

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Originally Posted by Awha

give us back the option to use old cleric stance

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Cleric Stance was gilthy of many deaths.
And I loved it. I mean, I was fine with it being gone before they butchered healers in 5.0.

These days I've been missing a lot of the old skills and mechanics. The game was challenging, frustrating at times, but fun and rewarding when you finally mastered a job.

Short response,

WHM: Much improved from SB. The most fluid to play among three healers. I miss Aero 3.
AST: Still unhappy. Still boycotting the job. I can (grudgingly) accept the card changes but stun and time dilation removed? Unacceptable.
SCH: Feels like the lesser WHM. Their kit lacks of something though idk. Need something else to spend from the Fairy gauge.

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Longer response or more like, what my thoughts are after having all 3 healers leveled now. Before I start, allow me to talk a bit on the variety of DPS jobs.

DPS roles have wide choices from 3 casters (RDM, BLM, SMN), 3 ranged (BRD, MCH, DNC) and 4 melee (MNK, SAM, NIN, DRG). Although I only have 1/3 of them leveled, I can say for a fact that each job plays differently from each other. Some have straightforward playstyle, some have tight rotations, some dabble with resource management, and some involves busy button presses. A DPS main can find the job that suits their preferred difficulty or enjoyment.

The current healers however lacks the diversity and this is VERY apparent between WHM and SCH. AST will still be a bit different due to cards. WHM is a power healer. SCH is a shielder. In a way, they both are played differently from each other. But after having SCH maxed recently, I'm disappointed that it ends up being no different from one another.

AOE: Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Assize, Misery... Art of War, Art of War, Art of W....(Hah, don't even have additional AOE moves like WHM)
Single target: Dia, Glare, Glare, Glare.... Bio, Broil, Broil, Broil...

So brain dead. They play the same. What am I leveling another healer for?
Why am I talking about DPS skills here not healing? Well, it can't be helped since ironically, we healers spend most time casting attack spells. But that isn't my point for this post.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

...SE imo should start looking into adding complexity, not dumbing down roles.

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Yes. This. Very much.

In my opinion, healing jobs that have different difficulty / distinct playstyle is just as important as having a varied style of DPS jobs. SE intention for healer homogenization is supposedly to make the job accessible to more players (and easier balance adjustment I guess). While I welcome this, but not by stripping the complexity of healers which are already so limited. The dots and fairy management SCH had made them different to WHM. The simplicity of WHM made healing approachable to other players.

In last expansion, I like having to explain what options a player have when choosing a healer. For example, WHM for a beginner. AST for busy mode WHM. SCH for the most micro managing. Back then, I think WHM > AST > SCH in terms of difficulty. As a leveling healer that I was, I think it was a good estimate on how skillful a healer could be. Or how one could challenge themselves to become a better healer. Not only that, the distinct difference between 3 healer jobs in SB enables healer mains to pick one that suits their enjoyment.

Now, I would suggest people play AST if they want a less boring healer. Else, go WHM. I can't come up a good reason why one should choose SCH. The job has lost things that made the job interesting to play. It is just a WHM copy with clunky fairy on the side.

Tl;dr
Simplified healer jobs are so similar to each other upsets me the most. Need complexity to differentiate them.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Cleric Stance was gilthy of many deaths.
And I loved it. I mean, I was fine with it being gone before they butchered healers in 5.0.

These days I've been missing a lot of the old skills and mechanics. The game was challenging, frustrating at times, but fun and rewarding when you finally mastered a job.

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Oh yeah I have let many players die learning my limits with cleric stance. "I got this, they should be able to take one more hit . . . RIP sorry" Though when you did get that clear where you were able to increase your time in cleric stance it felt great, and with every clear that time spent would only increase it was such a wonderful feeling of progression that I think is missing from a lot of jobs.

Main Sch here and I must say this is by far the worst iteration we've seen and probably one of the worst designed jobs I've seen in any game. The desing of the job focus most of the kit on the healing as if it were a major part of the role when in reality you spend more than 70-80% of the time dpsing (no matter which content you do) which has been dumbed down so much that is outright insulting like if the devs thought we can't handle more than 2 buttons. One of the things that diferentiate the job, the fairy, has been nerfed to the point where using dissipation (a skill that removes the fairy for 30s) is not risky at all, a fairy that you can't control and have less options and versatility with the removal of the second kit selene had, a fairy that has gameplay issues like delay in the actions and ghosting and thank god the devs were "kind" enough and they gave us Energy drain back because at that point the job was even worse that's without mentioning how stupid is that skills like fey union can't be used if seraph is summoned making the kit feel less cohesive and flexible.

The current iteration of Sch needs to burn and the devs should for once accept the "green dps" intead of forcing us to play on a way the content is not designed for.

healers are fine right now i guess. devs prolly levelled them out in preparation for the 4th healer in 6.0 that they'll ram in to try placate the healer mains and spend all expac balancing...

playing devil's advocate, they tried making healers challenging and interesting (in terms of XIV) in HW and the majority of people hated it.

even today, when playing a healer is braindead, you still get people not dpsing. you still get people using Draw once every 4 mins. you still get people spamming Cure II every time the tank takes an auto.

when you have a playerbase where the majority eschew literally any form of challenging content, and where lazy play is practiced and actively encouraged by the community, why is it surprising we're only pressing 3 buttons for our dps rotations?

White mage is better than it was before. We finally have a reason to use our gauge. Current content tends to be too light on damage to let this job shine.

Scholar feels odd, like I'm playing half a class. I miss micromanaging the fairy. Eos and Selene should not be duplicates. This job needs an overhaul by people who understand healers.
Suggestion: Give the fairies two distinct sets of abilities and bring in weaving between Eos and Selene to play up the strategy factor of healing on a Scholar.

Astrologian is pretty but the job isn't my cup of tea so I cannot comment.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

healers are fine right now i guess. devs prolly levelled them out in preparation for the 4th healer in 6.0 that they'll ram in to try placate the healer mains and spend all expac balancing...

playing devil's advocate, they tried making healers challenging and interesting (in terms of XIV) in HW and the majority of people hated it.

even today, when playing a healer is braindead, you still get people not dpsing. you still get people using Draw once every 4 mins. you still get people spamming Cure II every time the tank takes an auto.

when you have a playerbase where the majority eschew literally any form of challenging content, and where lazy play is practiced and actively encouraged by the community, why is it surprising we're only pressing 3 buttons for our dps rotations?

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Really? I see most people begging to go back to HW healers more than I see people saying HW healers were bad. (except for maybe launch AST, which was just laughably weak, not complex.)

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

playing devil's advocate, they tried making healers challenging and interesting (in terms of XIV) in HW and the majority of people hated it.

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Who's the majority you speak off? Most of us healer mains were fine. Other people who loved to dps hated it, but who cares, healers =/= dps.

''As a smooth brain dps main I enjoy playing SCH now since it's alot easier to understand, similarly how I enjoy SMN now because it isn't a clusterfuck of different themes, outdated abilities and weirdness overall.''

Yeah great. Welcome to the reason everyone I did play with once, leaving SCH and the entire game. Pursuit of selfish preference scarcely ends well in MMO's. Especially when the thing thats broken, isn't your main or anything you give a damn about in the bigger picture.

I don't care for the changes that were made to healers this expansion. The jobs are far too homogenized and there are too many redundant skills. Job mechanics shouldn't be tacked on as an after thought, but rather the core which the job is built around.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Really? I see most people begging to go back to HW healers more than I see people saying HW healers were bad. (except for maybe launch AST, which was just laughably weak, not complex.)

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It really depends.

HW was the worst balance healers had ever seen. When seesawed from AST being utter garbage to WHM being utter garbage. SCH god tier the whole way through. End of SB was a bit comparable, but not as bad.

But it was also a time when a good healer could out DPS a bad DPS (which can't really happen now even if the DPS is dead for a minute+). And some people may have liked certain elements from HW. But anyone that wants a wholesale return to that period is looking at it through *very* rose tinted glasses.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It really depends.

HW was the worst balance healers had ever seen. When seesawed from AST being utter garbage to WHM being utter garbage. SCH god tier the whole way through. End of SB was a bit comparable, but not as bad.

But it was also a time when a good healer could out DPS a bad DPS (which can't really happen now even if the DPS is dead for a minute+). And some people may have liked certain elements from HW. But anyone that wants a wholesale return to that period is looking at it through *very* rose tinted glasses.

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I'm guessing you are only talking about savage in all intances. Sure they are now balanced, cuz they are mostly the same, but if we talk about them in regards to their playstyle in all instances (not everyone plays savage everyday), healers are now dull and boring. I'd rather have my old AST back.

Healers in Shadowbringers are dull, uninspired and overpowered.

Job identity has been stripped. Offensive play has been simplified for the second expansion in a row. More unnecessary off-global healing abilities have been added. Despite player health pool inflation, healing in Shadowbringers is the easiest it's ever been.

I get no joy out of playing healer outside of a raid environment, and even then my enjoyment is limited. I no longer want to push the envelope of my job, because the non-healing gameplay is utterly devoid of any aspects that could be considered interesting.

The current healer jobs feel like they're designed for people who don't play healer, and it's frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

HW was the worst balance healers had ever seen. When seesawed from AST being utter garbage to WHM being utter garbage. SCH god tier the whole way through. End of SB was a bit comparable, but not as bad.

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Healers were pretty balanced prior to 3.4. Problem was, there wasn't enough reason for career WHMs to give up and switch to AST, and SE are far more concerned with player metrics than they are with game balance, so AST got buffed through the roof and made "mandatory" for serious play with the release of Creator. Let's not pretend like anything has changed, though. AST is still the least played healer, despite clearly being the strongest.

If you're really concerned with Noct AST being viable, it's been fine since the start of Stormblood, but no one really wanted to push the envelope with the job after SCH was hotfixed to be less terrible.

AST is just a terrible healer from a conceptual standpoint. How do you balance a job that is supposed to be able to fill the role of two fundamentally different healers on equal footing (WHM and SCH) AND provide raid buffs? In Shadowbringers, the answer is to make it the best at everything. The complete reluctance to scrap Noct Sect has been a terrible design decision.

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Originally Posted by Ayesafaile

AST is just a terrible healer from a conceptual standpoint. How do you balance a job that is supposed to be able to fill the role of two fundamentally different healers on equal footing (WHM and SCH) AND provide raid buffs? In Shadowbringers, the answer is to make it the best at everything. The complete reluctance to scrap Noct Sect has been a terrible design decision.

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And that's the issue. AST was supposed to work with either cohealer. Even with another AST. It's not supposed to be a replacement for a SCH or WHM. Noct shields should not be expected to be the equivalent to SCH shields, because AST also brought buffs to the game.

But everyone obsesed with "perfection" and numbers. So they saw AST as a bad SCH, a bad WHM, a bad DPS, and a raid wide dmg buffer. I saw plenty of bad WHM and SCH during my raiding time in HW and StB. Even know. Also, do you know how many people knew about the arrow? It was so good when expanded in normal content, solo, and big pulls.

I honestly think scrapping Noct would be the final nail in the coffin.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Who's the majority you speak off? Most of us healer mains were fine. Other people who loved to dps hated it, but who cares, healers =/= dps.

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It's partially because of the complaints and feedback about Healers refusing to do dps. While I liked Cleric Stance, it did push the skill floor a tad bit too high. It wasn't very accessible to most players and was super clunky to use for solo play unless you were Sch which the fairy completely bypasses the negative effects.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

And that's the issue. AST was supposed to work with either cohealer. Even with another AST. It's not supposed to be a replacement for a SCH or WHM.

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This basically. The potential issue regarding Healers is that the devs want any healer composition to function. It's not the same as balancing the other roles from what I can understand, and the main reason why duplicates don't synergise well together. A lot of it boils down to the fact that the devs have sectioned healing into either "pure healing" or "shield healing". If they introduce a fourth healer designated as a "shield healer" and force Ast into a permanent Diurnal Sect, then you'll never be able to run with a Whm/Ast comp because it wouldn't be feasible. Similarly, making all four healers have their own niche can possibly end up with similar results.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

lAlso, do you know how many people knew about the arrow? It was so good when expanded in normal content, solo, and big pulls.

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It was fun to use, but I don't think it'll work with how some of the jobs work right now especially Machinist. Back during Stormblood, I even raided with people who played jobs like Mch and Drg that had macros to forcibly click off Arrow and Fey Wind because it messes up rotation timings or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

This basically. The potential issue regarding Healers is that the devs want any healer composition to function. It's not the same as balancing the other roles from what I can understand, and the main reason why duplicates don't synergise well together. A lot of it boils down to the fact that the devs have sectioned healing into either "pure healing" or "shield healing". If they introduce a fourth healer designated as a "shield healer" and force Ast into a permanent Diurnal Sect, then you'll never be able to run with a Whm/Ast comp because it wouldn't be feasible. Similarly, making all four healers have their own niche can possibly end up with similar results.

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Likewise this new shield healer + SCH would be prohibitive.

They need to do what they've done with tanks (where any tank can MT or OT) and basically have all healers have a certain capacity for pure healing, regen and shields. And this seems to be what they're going for with the latest job forms.
AST now has two skills that do the opposite of their current sect, and WHM has a proper single target shield skill.
Of course SCH still has it's Tactics skills that turn shields into pure heals, and the fairy which is basically an elaborate regen, so SCH was kinda already there.
They just need to be able to differentiate them enough via job mechanics and dps skills.

With this in mind, I think the next healer should be based around a mechanic that allows them to use either regens or shields at will.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

It was fun to use, but I don't think it'll work with how some of the jobs work right now especially Machinist. Back during Stormblood, I even raided with people who played jobs like Mch and Drg that had macros to forcibly click off Arrow and Fey Wind because it messes up rotation timings or something like that.

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Yes, I knew about this so I didn't use the arrow on such jobs. Again, outside of savage, I think it would work well with a lot of AoE combos on big pulls. At least it would be less boring than melee card, ranged card, melee card, ranged card, ranged card, melee card, divination, melee card...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

They need to do what they've done with tanks (where any tank can MT or OT) and basically have all healers have a certain capacity for pure healing, regen and shields. And this seems to be what they're going for with the latest job forms.

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I kind of agree, although WHM still got left behind there as Divine Benison isn't comparable to SCH's regens on the fairy and Sacred Soil (plus its direct heals).

The Regen vs Shield mentality has to go. I actually like what they did to AST with Intersection and Neutral Sect, the Cooldowns on these abilities are enough not to make them OP, and it brings a bit more planning and reflexion to AST (although you can still power heal with earthly Star almost everything significant). This could be expanded further into a real job identity, healing wise.

I also think shielding should change. In the current state where mitigation, oGCD heals and regens are so strong when used correctly, unless a particular damage NEEDS shielding, GCD shields are often a loss.

Yeah I agree cleric stance was clunky at times, I wish they fleshed it out more instead of removing the stance dance concept altogether. I get giving players an option is not really giving them an option because whatever does the most damage would be considered the only viable way of playing.

Still I wish we had the option to use old cleric stance. I have no problems with the heal tool kit itself, I do miss the old card system mostly for the lolz.

I just wish we had more to do, and cleric stance did provide that level of something to do. Sure it was clunky, stressful and imperfect. I did enjoy it a lot though.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

This basically. The potential issue regarding Healers is that the devs want any healer composition to function. It's not the same as balancing the other roles from what I can understand, and the main reason why duplicates don't synergise well together. A lot of it boils down to the fact that the devs have sectioned healing into either "pure healing" or "shield healing". If they introduce a fourth healer designated as a "shield healer" and force Ast into a permanent Diurnal Sect, then you'll never be able to run with a Whm/Ast comp because it wouldn't be feasible. Similarly, making all four healers have their own niche can possibly end up with similar results.

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In the majority of content (i.e. any full party Duty Finder activity, maps, hunts, etc.), it wouldn't matter, just like how things are currently with WHM/WHM or SCH/SCH. It's much easier to balance two jobs per role, and give them unique job identities and mechanics, than it is to balance four. I'd much rather have 4 healer jobs that play differently than 4 jobs that by necessity must possess the same functionality such that all possible combinations are viable. There just isn't enough development time put into job design to create a perfect world where all healers are unique yet equally capable and flexible. Look at all the job identity that's been lost over the last two expansions in the name of raid balance - SCH doesn't even remotely resemble Arcanist anymore, and it's a huge shame. SE have failed to expand upon the unique and interesting facets of jobs, for example the buff extension capabilities of old AST, and instead completely axed them in order to throw Stormblood WHM abilities into the AST kit (Celestial Intersection/Divine Benison, Horoscope/Plenary Indulgence) for the sake of job balance.

The homogenization required for complete raid balance and healer interchangeability results in jobs being neither fun nor interesting, and nothing has made that more clear than Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

They need to do what they've done with tanks (where any tank can MT or OT) and basically have all healers have a certain capacity for pure healing, regen and shields. And this seems to be what they're going for with the latest job forms.

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I have to disagree here. That would be homogenizing the healers even more, in fact that's exactly what SE gunned for this expansion and -exactly- what everyone is complaining about. If anything the exact opposite needs to happen.

The reality of the matter is that healers, in the holy trinity occupy a very unique role. One that can't be measured by the performance of a single class but as a combination of factors. How healer skills synergies, how tank skills synergies with the healers, what the damage spread in the content is, how dps mitigation can be leveraged, etc.. Unlike other roles, you can't look at a single healer in a vacuum and decide how the skill set should work, equally (and this is directly tied to your suggestion) you can't look at healers in a vacuum unless you plan on essentially making them the same.

What the healer roles in MMOs require are a specialized set of tools that estimate mobility, positioning, downtime, damage, etc. based on party comp and encounter design. With this, it makes it possible to offer a lot of diversity (be it in skill type, uptime, positioning, mobility, HPS, DPS) while keeping practical balance. "Practical" is the keyword here. It's ok to have unbalanced (lets say weaker) healer comps for some content as long as other healer comps are weaker in other content. When you achieve overall balance over multiple types of content you have a balanced game.
It seems, very strongly, that this is not something SE finds worth investing in, and here we are as per usual, eternally unhappy healers.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

But it was also a time when a good healer could out DPS a bad DPS (which can't really happen now even if the DPS is dead for a minute+).

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I'm all for that.

If a skilled healer utilizing an engaging dps toolkit can out dps a bad dps while simultaneously healing the group, then that's great. Good job. That dps was simply outperformed by a far better player. If the bad dps doesn't like it, then maybe they should play their class properly. I never understood giving tanks/healers terrible damage to try to protect the ego of players putting in no effort.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Likewise this new shield healer + SCH would be prohibitive.

They need to do what they've done with tanks (where any tank can MT or OT) and basically have all healers have a certain capacity for pure healing, regen and shields. And this seems to be what they're going for with the latest job forms.
AST now has two skills that do the opposite of their current sect, and WHM has a proper single target shield skill.
Of course SCH still has it's Tactics skills that turn shields into pure heals, and the fairy which is basically an elaborate regen, so SCH was kinda already there.
They just need to be able to differentiate them enough via job mechanics and dps skills.

With this in mind, I think the next healer should be based around a mechanic that allows them to use either regens or shields at will.

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Please no. Tanking use to be one my favorite roles because every class played overall differently and had varying strengths and weaknesses which was cool. Now they are more or less the same, sure they look different but they are simoly inter changeable. Play one played them all.

I feel like AST/SCH need tools to make them more appealing to play in dungeons because it's pretty hard to beat the AoE stuns and additional AoE damage that WHM has when it comes to those.

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Originally Posted by Ayesafaile

SE have failed to expand upon the unique and interesting facets of jobs, for example the buff extension capabilities of old AST, and instead completely axed them in order to throw Stormblood WHM abilities into the AST kit (Celestial Intersection/Divine Benison, Horoscope/Plenary Indulgence) for the sake of job balance.

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As much as anyone would like to admit, the buff extension for Ast was not as extensive as you'd think. Ast had MP issues in previous expansions too, and Opposition was exclusively saved for Lucid because of it. Dilation wasn't super interesting either since you can't use it on yourself—and places where you would get value out of it were few and far between. I personally really liked the idea for buff extending as a concept, but it was pretty redundant in practice honestly.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I have to disagree here. That would be homogenizing the healers even more, in fact that's exactly what SE gunned for this expansion and -exactly- what everyone is complaining about. If anything the exact opposite needs to happen.

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They really can't if the devs want to keep the philosophy of "you can clear with any reasonable party configuration". It's the main factor for the split between "pure healing" and "shield healing" in the design, and is similar to the "Main/Off Tank" concept.

The moment they distance Ast specifically from either design concept is the moment it can't compete with the other two healers anymore. Both design concepts are heavily integral to a lot of the current encounter design, so making that kind of change would require a rework on a massive scale to implement. Sure it'll be cool for a while to have all three (and potentially a fourth) healers having their own niche, but designing encounters around four different unique kits is extremely restricting.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

As much as anyone would like to admit, the buff extension for Ast was not as extensive as you'd think

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Actually, yes, it was. Not so much in savage for those dps numbers everybody craves too much (though I strongly suspect were roll dps the thing back in hw and sb, it would shine better), but in alliance and dungeons it was amazing. Stacking your buffs on the mt followed by a CO and TD meant you go entire pulls with barely a heal if you really tried.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Ast had mp issues in previous expansions

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Ast's were only slightly mp negative in diurnal and more so in nocturnal on account of it being objectively inferior in being unable to stack its shields unlike diurnal's regens which do. Slight mp negative is a good thing, as mp management is both fun when balanced right and integral part of healer balance.
Whm has practifcally infinite mp. It will run dry, but only if you aren't using your kit to even a basic level, which no player should be doing at 70 nevermind 80

Astro's ewer was excellent mana regen and boostable at that, at the cost of it being unreliable. But that's what made it fun, you had redraw to adjust your cards to as of when you needed htem, failing tha tin sb minor arcana could grant a free heal.
Luminerferous aether was the mp restorative in HW. It did the equivalent of 1/5 to 1/4 of your mp depending on a few factors

Compared to AST and SCH, WHM is a bit more fun to play and seems more "complete" imo.

Aoe + stun effect, aoe dmg + heal effect + regen mp, some rng free mp cures, several single/aoe regen, a shield, an aoe dmg with gauge, a free mp skill, a cast boost skill.....seriously, the other healers feel weak compared to this. But even with its kit, whm feels borring in certain content and you spamm your 1 dps spell like a robot like the other healer jobs....

The community has created dozens of subjects in english, french, german, japanese concerning how the 5.0 healer jobs were broken and not fun anymore but it doesn't seems SE cares about it so...maybe we should just all boycott healers jobs idk.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Stacking your buffs on the mt followed by a CO and TD meant you go entire pulls with barely a heal if you really tried.

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It was nice to have and and satisfying to pull off (no amount of effort can overwrite bad luck), but again, where would you use it outside of that one specific instance? What if you never get the exact card combination for the entire dungeon? Are you going to just hold onto both abilities indefinitely till you get it? Genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Ast's were only slightly mp negative in diurnal and more so in nocturnal on account of it being objectively inferior in being unable to stack its shields unlike diurnal's regens which do.

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Eh, it's about the same as it is right now. The reason why its so noticeable in ShB is that they removed both Ewer and the ability to extend Lucid while not giving any other external source of MP recovery to compensate. Adding on to buff extenders, there were posts like this regarding MP issues such as always pairing Opposition with Lucid.