Open Letter to the Devs Regarding Eden's Verse: Reflugence [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

more like making a mole hill out of a grain of sand

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100% agreeing with you.

Anyway, there are actually some worse undertones to this that some people aren't seeing.

Now, I'm not religious, but in the churning mists, Saint Shiva is dressed in robes reminiscent of a Religious Habit.
So uh... I hope I don't need to explain too much about how stripping (what looks like a nun) almost naked, is problematic. Especially considering the history of sexual abuse nuns face in the real world.


https://imgur.com/yvl5aOC.jpg
How does this ^
https://i.redd.it/3lxrzy5h3sh41.jpg
become this ^?

As well as putting a childs head on an (almost) naked adult body (which is illegal in some countries).

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Anyway, there are actually some worse undertones to this that some people aren't seeing.

Now, I'm not religious, but in the churning mists, Saint Shiva is dressed in robes reminiscent of a Religious Habit.
So uh... I hope I don't need to explain too much about how stripping (what looks like a nun) almost naked, is problematic. Especially considering the history of sexual abuse nuns face in the real world.

As well as putting a childs head on an (almost) naked adult body (which is illegal in some countries).

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So... we are now going to grasp at straws for something to be outraged about? There is nothing to this. Period. We have no actual reason the believe that shiva was some kind of nun, theres no age basis for ryne so legality cant be answered, this whole lets compare rl to a video game is asinine to like an insane degree, and the character is not naked nor depicted as naked.

In fact even at her worst she shows less skin than an woman or man in swim wear, and more clothing than given credit for.

You all need to stop and just get off the internet for awhile. Like ffs if you can’t help yourself but sexualize what you perceive as a child, then you are the problem and should probably re-evaluate your thought processes or seek consoling or something. If you are this easily offended and triggered by something that is not real! Just pixels on a screen then you need to grow up. If you are so turned on by a fictional character with the face of a child then you need help.

Stop trying to force your ideals on other people and stifling creativity to fit your narrow, puritanical sensibilities.. ffs....

And all of you trying to make this an issue of morals. Not one of you have the right, every last one of you are morally corrupt, myself included. That’s the world we live in. Get off your high horses, quit faking outrage over something so trival. If you’re so dead set on your social justice ideals, go help a homeless person, go volunteer around your communities to make a difference. Stop whining about a video game and be offended over actual crises.. so get off the internet and go the f&@$ outside and fix yourself.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Stop whining about a video game and be offended over actual crises.. so get off the internet and go the f&@$ outside and fix yourself.

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Damn, I think I hit a nerve with that post :P
Anyway, I am almost finished with my Ecology degree, so I can make a career out of repairing damaged ecosystems, which are important to the health of everyone and everything on the planet, so I am in the process of going outside and fixing stuff. :)

But you can't ignore the fact that the devs decided to make a questionably aged character portray another character, Saint Shiva (who is usually fully clothed, in heavy clothing) as almost naked.
Thats a significant design choice there, and many hours are put into those models, it didn't happen by accident.

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Originally Posted by rance-sama

Someone tl;dr me.

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Ryne went from a little girl to a big girl and that ain't right.

And yet you ignore the blatantly obvious thing. We never met “Saint Shiva”. We met primal shiva in lore, and what did she wear? Oh right not much. Where was the outrage then? Hmm? Oh right there wasn’t any, because it wasnt “cool” to be outraged at that point.

The fact is everything done in this fight is consistent with lore, done tastefully, and actually extremely creative and well thought out.

But a few people get uncomfortable for their perceptions of a “sexualized child like character” and oh no the world is ending because you people cant control your thoughts.

This is like a rapist going into court and using the defense “well your honor look how they were dressed they were asking for it.”

No one asked you all to sexualize Ryne, no one is forcing you to do so. Sure the outfits are alluring, but honestly I don’t go out see someone wearing something revealing and go “oh they are just asking for it look how they are dressed.” I address them as people, maybe compliment the outfit and go on about my day like a normal person.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

And yet you ignore the blatantly obvious thing. We never met “Saint Shiva”. We met primal shiva in lore, and what did she wear? Oh right not much. Where was the outrage then? Hmm? Oh right there wasn’t any, because it wasnt “cool” to be outraged at that point.

The fact is everything done in this fight is consistent with lore, done tastefully, and actually extremely creative and well thought out.

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But it's not consistent with lore. Even the original primal Shiva had more clothes than that.
And then there's the background lore of what a Moogle says about that statue in the quest "Respecting the Sheave", The journal something along the lines of that's how Shiva looked like when she fell in love with Hraesvelgr. Although, he's a moogle, they are not the most accurate of sources.

I personally am not sexualising Ryne, I am accusing the devs of doing that.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I personally am not sexualising Ryne, I am accusing the devs of doing that.

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Good, they probably don't care. Now go outside and save the world while we enjoy E8.

All this crying and whining over nothing man has this community gone down hill....the littlest thing bugs someone and they have to make this giant ass rant on the forums like we all care.....

If sexualised teenagers trigger you that much you should probably stay away from all forms of japanese media.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

But it's not consistent with lore. Even the original primal Shiva had more clothes than that.
And then there's the background lore of what a Moogle says about that statue, he states something along the lines of that's how Shiva looked like when she fell in love with Hraesvelgr.
I personally am not sexualising Ryne, I am accusing the devs of doing that.

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Yet it is lore consistent, our memory isn’t the greatest (i.e. every other primal we summoned) it’s also being interpreted by Ryne and Eden, so changes do happen. Lets take the Hrasevelgr outfit for example.

Who in msq tied to Ryne do we know that merges with a dragon like that. Oh right Ran’jit, so those memories also affected the summoning because of Ryne’s memories, Ryne did have an outfit very similar and very tastefully convering her to Shiva’s so the lore for that is there as well.

You are all trying so hard to be offended over nothing. This is a personal issue and the dev team should not be punished or forced to change their work because you people can’t control yourselves.

It’s disturbing you alls fixation on this issue compared to how amazing of a fight it was, visually, audibly, from a lore stand point, and from a mechanic standpoint.

So, I think I'll repost this for people's consideration in case you didn't see it before in the other thread:

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Originally Posted by linay

So, I just searched the web for "swimsuits for teen girls."

Here is one result:

https://assets.teenvogue.com/photos/...-swimsuits.jpg

I don't see much difference between that and Shiva in Savage:

https://i.redd.it/3lxrzy5h3sh41.jpg

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I'm just saying, if you make problematic and questionable design choices, then expect people to question it.

I am personally not outraged, I just find it a bit weird and unsettling from a design standpoint, as in my opinion, it doesn't really fit the lore, and doesn't really have a legitimate reason for it to look that way, but it's not gonna stop me from playing.
I am just pointing out where it's questionable and problematic for those who cannot see anything questionable about it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That is entirely subjective though. You perceiving her outfit sexual does not make it so. In fact, how does this have any more "sexual connotations" than a teenager in a bikini?

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It really isn't. Saying so is in complete disregard for the interpretations and representations of modesty throughout human civilisation that has now shaped our culture as it is today. I didn't decide this. Recognising that it is there, being for it, being against it, and being offended by it (among others) are separate things. You're right, given the correct context, a teenager in a bikini on a beach on a hot summer's day may be considered acceptable depending on the culture. But there is also the pervasive sexual preference for neotenous traits (especially in women) in our cultures, because they exude delicate feminine traits that are generally attractive to men. This then has further connotations with youth and innocence. The accentuation of the female breasts and genitals through a bikini only kindles it further. In Japanese and asian culture, this is especially prevalent, and you can see it everywhere you look. The science is really there, and will remain that way no matter how liberal I think I am. But just because it is considered acceptable does not necessarily mean that it has 0 sexual connotations.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I'm just saying, if you make problematic and questionable design choices, then expect people to question it.

I am personally not outraged, I just find it a bit weird and unsettling from a design standpoint, as in my opinion, it doesn't really fit the lore, and doesn't really have a legitimate reason for it to look that way, but it's not gonna stop me from playing.
I am just pointing out where it's questionable and problematic for those who cannot see anything questionable about it.

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Looking at the picture you posted...yeah, I find it just a tad unsettling. Not enough for me to unsub and uninstall the game, mind you, but it weirds me out a bit. The other phase forms didn't really bother me since I was more focused on not dying, but this...well, I won't repeat myself. Granted I wouldn't have made a forum thread about it, but this would be my opinion to anyone who asks. lol

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

If sexualised teenagers trigger you that much you should probably stay away from all forms of japanese media.

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Or a CW/MTV show for that matter. Teen Wolf kids were in high school and doing the dirty. Keep in mind their high school was in the state of CA where the age of consent is 18. But of course the actors were adults...



That said, if it was really a problem they, as in SE probably would have censored it further in certain countries. They already had to do that in some regions.

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Originally Posted by Friske

But just because it is considered acceptable does not necessarily mean that it has 0 sexual connotations.

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I would agree that there is some sexual connotation, but I think it's also appropriate to note that Ryne's body (whether as Shiva or her regular self) has developed breasts. To say that it is wrong to "sexualize" her would be to miss the point that her own body has developed sexually.

So especially to those people who want to associate this with pedophilia, that is specifically regarding sexual attraction toward a prepubescent individual, which cannot be the case for Ryne.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Yet it is lore consistent, our memory isn’t the greatest (i.e. every other primal we summoned) it’s also being interpreted by Ryne and Eden, so changes do happen. Lets take the Hrasevelgr outfit for example.

Who in msq tied to Ryne do we know that merges with a dragon like that. Oh right Ran’jit, so those memories also affected the summoning because of Ryne’s memories, Ryne did have an outfit very similar and very tastefully convering her to Shiva’s so the lore for that is there as well.

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I don't have a problem with the first outfit, that is lore friendly. I don't even have a problem with the Hydaelyn outfit, as that is reminicent of the Hydaelyn wall murals.
I just refuse the believe that my character remembers Saint Shiva (not primal shiva) as naked, where we see her in all her statues as fully clothed and in robes. Did Ryne picture her naked? Because that's kinda weird if she did.
Because Ranjiit certainly wasn't naked.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20190709091730


It's a really weird design choice by the devs. And one that I am questioning them on.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Looking at the picture you posted...yeah, I find it just a tad unsettling. Not enough for me to unsub and uninstall the game, mind you, but it weirds me out a bit.

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Exactly! It's just plain weird, and it weirds me out too! I mean, it wouldn't make me stop playing the game, little Past-Alma being pregnant weirds me out even more, and that didn't make me stop playing the game, but I'm allowed to say when it's just plain weird, and unsettling.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I just refuse the believe that my character remembers Saint Shiva (not primal shiva) as naked, where we see her in all her statues as fully clothed and in robes. Did Ryne picture her naked? Because that's kinda weird if she did.

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If Titan can can have wheels, then I don't see a problem with this lore-wise, especially since it only occurs in the Savage version, which is not the canonical encounter. (Well, it's still part of canon, but not the true encounter and is altered even more.)

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Originally Posted by linay

If Titan can can have wheels, then I don't see a problem with this lore-wise, especially since it only occurs in the Savage version, which is not the canonical encounter. (Well, it's still part of canon, but not the true encounter and is altered even more.)

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I always thought that was more like merging Titan with the Kobold technology we saw before and after we met Titan. Like minecarts with wheels, grates, and the like.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I don't have a problem with the first outfit, that is lore friendly. I don't even have a problem with the Hydaelyn outfit, as that is reminicent of the Hydaelyn wall murals.
I just refuse the believe that my character remembers Saint Shiva (not primal shiva) as naked, where we see her in all her statues as fully clothed and in robes. Did Ryne picture her naked? Because that's kinda weird if she did.
Because Ranjiit certainly wasn't naked.


It's a really weird design choice by the devs. And one that I am questioning them on.

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I picture literally everyone else naked at all times of the day and at all times of the week. It's a power move.

I have lots of problems.

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Originally Posted by linay

I would agree that there is some sexual connotation, but I think it's also appropriate to note that Ryne's body (whether as Shiva or her regular self) has developed breasts. To say that it is wrong to "sexualize" her would be to miss the point that her own body has developed sexually.

So especially to those people who want to associate this with pedophilia, that is specifically regarding sexual attraction toward a prepubescent individual, which cannot be the case for Ryne.

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I think part of the issue also stems from the fact that Ryne maintains her adolescent facial structures post-transformation. It raises some curious questions like: is it paedophilia if you are only attracted to adolescent bodies? Does the facial structure also play a part in that? What if one part of the body appears more adolescent than the rest of the body? What % and what specific areas does a body have to be adolescent for it to be considered paedophilia?

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I always thought that was more like merging Titan with the Kobold technology we saw before and after we met Titan. Like minecarts with wheels, grates, and the like.

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And if you can see that, then seeing Shiva be naked and have the dragon be her covering isn't a stretch either. It's just an interpretation that whatever produced the Savage version gave.

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Originally Posted by Friske

I think part of the issue also stems from the fact that Ryne maintains her adolescent facial structures post-transformation. It raises some curious questions like: is it paedophilia if you are only attracted to adolescent bodies? Does the facial structure also play a part in that? What if one part of the body appears more adolescent than the rest of the body? What % and what specific areas does a body have to be adolescent for it to be considered paedophilia?

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I'm no expert, but I would think the face would logically not matter as much as whether or not the body has developed for sexual encounter. That said, adolescence is post puberty, so either way, it still wouldn't be pedophilia.

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Originally Posted by linay

I'm no expert, but I would think the face would logically not matter as much as whether or not the body has developed for sexual encounter. That said, adolescence is post puberty, so either way, it still wouldn't be pedophilia.

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I always thought that adolescence was during the process of puberty, and that since a human’s brain isn’t fully developed until your early 20s, that you should probably avoid relationships with anyone before that age, (and should probably avoid looking at naked pictures of people before that age, as their minds are not fully formed, and it could easily be exploitation) especially if you’re a lot older, but then again, I am a bit of a prude.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I always thought that adolescence was during the process of puberty, and that since a human’s brain isn’t fully developed until your early 20s, that you should probably avoid relationships with anyone before that age, (and should probably avoid looking at naked pictures of people before that age, as their minds are not fully formed, and it could easily be exploitation) especially if you’re a lot older, but then again, I am a bit of a prude.

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I don't necessarily disagree with that, but it doesn't change the reality that I started seeing certain people my age (and older) in new ways starting my adolescent years. It has nothing to do with seeing naked people either, but just seeing people fully clothed (with varying degrees of skin showing at times or varying degrees of tight/loose clothing).

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Originally Posted by linay

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but it doesn't change the reality that I started seeing certain people my age (and older) in new ways starting my adolescent years. It has nothing to do with seeing naked people either, but just seeing people fully clothed (with varying degrees of skin showing at times or varying degrees of tight/loose clothing).

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That’s perfectly fine, it’s fine for an adolescent to find others their age or older attractive.

I don’t condone older people sexualising those who are going through adolescence, or glamourising teens in revealing clothing, though. It’s just icky to me.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

That’s perfectly fine, it’s fine for an adolescent to find others their age or older attractive. I don’t condone older people sexualising those who are going through adolescence, or glamourising teens in revealing clothing. It’s just icky to me.

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While I understand the social ramification (which can change depending on society), I don't understand the actual difference in terms of recognizing that someone is sexually attractive. The things that attract you sexually in your adolescence are generally the same in your adulthood. So as I said earlier, it's not that people are "sexualizing" Ryne, but that she is an adolescent and so her body has started developing features to increase her sexual attractiveness.

And so I think it's fine, within the context of the fight, if people find Ryne sexually attractive in as much as anyone could find a digital character attractive. It's not like the game is actually setting your character up with Ryne (at least up to this point).

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

That’s perfectly fine, it’s fine for an adolescent to find others their age or older attractive.

I don’t condone older people sexualising those who are going through adolescence, or glamourising teens in revealing clothing, though. It’s just icky to me.

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Wouldn't this actually be Ryne doing this story wise? I mean this is about her becoming her own adult. What is she gonna do? When she channels a Primal probably put what she wants to be, strong sexy and powerful. It reminded me of a discussion about Disney's Rapunzel. Girls get tired of being the princess to be rescued, and a lot are looking to be powerful, good looking (sexy) and able to be a strong independent woman that won't need no Thancred in her life.

I can't believe this is actually a thing people are upset about. FFS, my whole thought process throughout the fight was focused on keeping people standing and my own stupid lala ass out of the bad things being flung at me.

Frankly, I think the people who get upset about this type of thing are obsessing about human sexuality more than most normal people.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I can't believe this is actually a thing people are upset about. FFS, my whole thought process throughout the fight was focused on keeping people standing and my own stupid lala ass out of the bad things being flung at me.

Frankly, I think the people who get upset about this type of thing are obsessing about human sexuality more than most normal people.

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This. Exactly this. I agree completely.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Wouldn't this actually be Ryne doing this story wise? I mean this is about her becoming her own adult. What is she gonna do? When she channels a Primal probably put what she wants to be, strong sexy and powerful. It reminded me of a discussion about Disney's Rapunzel. Girls get tired of being the princess to be rescued, and a lot are looking to be powerful, good looking (sexy) and able to be a strong independent woman that won't need no Thancred in her life.

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The thing is, it was only the first form’s outfit that she had control over, because it was at that point in which she lost control. The first form isn’t that bad at all, but after that it goes downhill. Like, the more control she loses, the less clothing she has. That has weird implications right there.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I can't believe this is actually a thing people are upset about. FFS, my whole thought process throughout the fight was focused on keeping people standing and my own stupid lala ass out of the bad things being flung at me.

Frankly, I think the people who get upset about this type of thing are obsessing about human sexuality more than most normal people.

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Well I'm one of those who think some of her outfits are too racy for someone her age. But I can't say it ruins my day or my fun in the game. I can still appreciate the aesthetic. The outfits on their own are wonderful works of art. The transformation sequences were also really well done.

Ryne is a fictional person so no one is being directly abused or coerced into wearing something they do not want or should not be wearing, so I do understand why some people think OP is overreacting. However there is something to be said about it being worrying to normalise such outfits for someone her age.

As for the argument as to how such outfits would influence, lets say, a certain type of fan art that is very NSFW...well that happens to all major characters anyway regardless of what they wear. I have come across some interesting art of many characters who wore nothing remotely sexy. Rule 34 always prevails no matter how the characters in question are presented in the official media they come from.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

But it's not consistent with lore. Even the original primal Shiva had more clothes than that.
And then there's the background lore of what a Moogle says about that statue in the quest "Respecting the Sheave", The journal something along the lines of that's how Shiva looked like when she fell in love with Hraesvelgr. Although, he's a moogle, they are not the most accurate of sources.

I personally am not sexualising Ryne, I am accusing the devs of doing that.

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But you are personally sexualising Ryne. You've had person after person tell you that this isn't sexualisation, that nudity isn't sexual per se, that there is absolutely nothing sexual in this. But you still don't see that this is your problem, not the devs

This would be entirely different if you were asking the dev team to denounce over-sexualizing Shiva-Ryne rather than requesting them to change the model.

That I could get behind, or to make clear that the design decisions made were not with the intent to sexualize the character but were made to fit into lore and artistic tastes.

Because many people do not see a sexualized version of Ryne we see a fantasy theme based character in a lore relevant battle, with a lot of lore references and creative design decisions. Trying to force outrage isn’t a solution it’s causing more problems than it’s worth.

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

All this crying and whining over nothing man has this community gone down hill....the littlest thing bugs someone and they have to make this giant ass rant on the forums like we all care.....

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Considering all the replies, and even you replied, it would appear people DO care.
Amusing seeing people taking the time to post about how much they don't care.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

If sexualised teenagers trigger you that much you should probably stay away from all forms of japanese media.

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You do understand a person can enjoy a piece of media while still finding flaws in it?
Ignoring a problem is never going to encourage change. If people having morals triggers YOU so much, you should probably stay away from all forms of internet interaction.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

But you are personally sexualising Ryne. You've had person after person tell you that this isn't sexualisation, that nudity isn't sexual per se, that there is absolutely nothing sexual in this. But you still don't see that this is your problem, not the devs

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Ah, classic. "You have issue with something no one else sees, I guess you're the perv"
Yet there are plenty of people in this thread who also see the problem, and again, there's lots of Chris Hansen memes surrounding Shiva Ryne. So yeah.

Long day at work, so I'm afraid I don't feel like going through the pages that have cropped up in the last 12 hours, so I've just kind of skimmed.

But I would like to clarify that my intent was not for stir up anything close to outrage. I simply pointed out something that could be considered a problem, that maybe the devs didn't realize would be a problem, explained why, and offered what I thought would be the best solution. Note my wording at the end of the original post: "I hope you will consider."

Considering something doesn't mean actually doing it. If they devs see this and decide they want to address it in a different way (if at all), then that's their prerogative.

I tried to convey my calmness about the whole situation in my wording, though I did initially want to include video so that my tone could defintely not be mistaken, but unfortunately I couldn't keep myself from looking at my notes every 2 seconds, which looked incredibly stupid, so I trashed it.

As far as I can tell, the posts in this thread that come closest to having an outraged tone have been in opposition to my position.

Also, whoever it was that brought up the religious imagery of the Mother of Sheve, that's an INCREDIBLY interesting point and if I weren't so butt tired, I'd love to discuss it more.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

The thing is, it was only the first form’s outfit that she had control over, because it was at that point in which she lost control. The first form isn’t that bad at all, but after that it goes downhill. Like, the more control she loses, the less clothing she has. That has weird implications right there.

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I wouldn't say she had less clothing after the second form, just arranged differently. It DOES however follow the vneck plunge seen in Shiva's outfit. The third form seen in Savage is just really an Easter egg. Yes, she lost control...and? That doesn't refute my argument at all whether its conscious desire or subconscious.

Technically, I haven’t asked for a model change to Ryne, I started out just trying to give some context to people who don’t seem to get OP’s point if view.

If you guys can’t see how, a trial with involving a questionably aged girl, who has lost control of the situation, being forced by something with more power than her to love someone she has never met, whilst being almost nude, with mechanics around dressing and undressing, whilst trying to portray a character that is usually fully clothed, might be the tiniest bit problematic? And a weird design choice by the devs?
Then I don’t know what more to say, and won’t be responding anymore to this thread.

Have a good day people, and continue to enjoy the game, as will I, dark undertones and all :)