The Devs have no idea what they are doing with FFXIV’s crafting and economics..

FF14 2.0 Hardcore crafters: I made millions Crafting long hours everyday and selling goods.


Eve online causal crafters:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...42/692/07f.jpg

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I can't think of single MMO where the dev's have their hands deep in the games ecomony. Dev's add vendor prices and a Market system then leave the rest to the player base, their not going to set up a team to monitor and control the games ecomony.

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EVE and GuildWars 2 both had economists on the team, or at least did at one point if they don't right now.

I definitely agree with this lol Although their overall strategy seems to be wanting Gil to be harder to earn and came by. Gil payout has been removed from collectibles, marketboard has tax no matter which area you buy from, and the crafting is over saturated with crafters. This is all to make Gil harder to earn and come by, which makes having hundreds of millions of Gil more valuable I believe

Yet some ppl have so much gil they always could fight off others that dare to invade their markets - or just bot so time is a non factor. The retainer changes killed crafting even more now as you get the 480 crafted HQ gear from them - or the 490 tome right away lol. Basically nothing has any value anymore.... its frustrating.

I have come up from the trenches of 1.0 and 2.0 crafting. I have to say this with a bullhorn..."Crafting is mindless now!" There is no strategy after you have found the prefect macro. Eat food, drink medicine, turn on netflix. As a newly minted omni crafter it was WAYYYY harder to become one back in 2.0. The main difference? Classes would share skills NEEDED to make crafting optimal, and you would LOSE money if you didn't. Doable with only one craft leveled, but killed your profit margins.

3.0 even doubled down on this with specialists. You had to seek out a specialist to make something you needed that was from another class, or purchase it at an insane amount. It was in your best interest to pick 3 that you considered your main's and "own" that market the best you could.

Then Materia melding was removed from crafters and pawned off to an NPC. Back then you had to find someone that could meld it for you, tip them, plus the normal cost for each meld. I made good money on this with a capped 50 GSM, and got repeat customers quite often as I just stood in Uldah melding jewelry. This provided GIL to fuel my other crafting operations.

There are way's to get your gear/weapons through crafting and purchasing, and way's to gain your gear/weapons through raids or dungeons. SE just made it incredibly easy to make GIL now more then ever and from my experience stems mostly from the face roll simplicity of gathering classes. Apart from collectibles, gathering is not even a challenge.

Ultimately IMO: You make gathering harder, and crafting will also become harder (no matter the macro used). If I needed an item that is ONLY attained by gathering, like many are, but make it rare to gather. I would spend more time and care with gathering and also the understanding of what it would mean if I would fail the craft with that item. TIME wasted. If SE started screwing with peoples personal TIME, crafting would be fine, the market boards would change drastically. Gatherers win, crafters win, and GIL would have meaning again.

Example: The rare drop of Emerald plating, Ruby plating. Content that isn't to difficult, but the chance of the reward is VERY low. Emerald plating is 150-300k on my server, respective barding is 350-500k and hasn't move much since the release of Emerald Weapon. And this is PURELY cosmetic! A 510 exarhic is 75-90k on my server...WHAT?

SE just needs fix gathering and crafting will "fix" itself. Control the incoming supply, control the low value items. I find it ABSURD that there are 52 hit's on a 510 HQ weapon that is "BiS" for savage, make that 4-5 hits and the price goes WAY up.

You know this game isn't real life, right?
"The Devs have no idea what they are doing with FFXIV’s crafting and economics.. " = "I can't make as much money as I used to and I'm upset"

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Originally Posted by Nabril

You know this game isn't real life, right?
"The Devs have no idea what they are doing with FFXIV’s crafting and economics.. " = "I can't make as much money as I used to and I'm upset"

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Some people like playing MMORPGs to see how rich they can get. It's pretty common and there's nothing wrong with that. Markets usually have a wide enough variety to leave room for all types of players to sell.

It shouldn't be surprising when some of them are upset that they aren't getting rich as fast as they used to because systems have changed and competition has suddenly increased. I just dislike the ones who go "it's not about the gil" then keeping pushing the discussion back toward how things sell for less gil than they used to. If it wasn't about the gil, they wouldn't be upset they're making less. If you're in it for the gil, be honest. I can respect that even if I don't necessarily agree with changes you want.

It's probably true that SE doesn't have anyone on the staff with expertise in market economies and so "don't know what they're doing". Most MMORPGs don't (think EVE Online is one of the exceptions) because wealth isn't core to game play. Developer generally let players develop markets on their own outside of a few basic restrictions (number of listings in the case of FFXIV). The ironic part is neither do most players. Even if someone has taken economic courses, they don't take into consideration how game systems impact markets differently compared to what we see in the real world with its regulations and limited resources.

As for what they're doing with crafting, we're the ones who don't know what SE is trying to accomplish as they haven't shared their goals with us. We just know how the changes impact our experience.

But crafting is only one part of the game's market economy. Those who are interested in getting rich can always branch out into other areas if they're not getting satisfaction making gil through crafting anymore.

Personally I have minor issues with crafting. Yes it's EASY, but given the current stat of crafting gear/melds and the playstyle for how crafting is done? SE really has backed themselves into a corner for fundamentally changing crafting in the future unless they do some BROAD sweeping changes to skills and/or how items are used in crafting.

My opinion the current crafting playstyle will be the same in 6.0 with trained eye having a new trait to 80 level items. And there will be a "Cyrstarium Restoration" once Ishgard wraps up with the new housing for 6.0 launches. That's about it. MAYBE a new crafting class....MAYBE.

My major issues with crafting aren't even tied to how crafting is conducted. It's how I sell my goods. The real META in crafting isn't ishgard resto. It's in selling my items period. You literally have to be THE cheapest on the board and partake in an undercutting war. This is just a STUPID way of selling your items....just stupid and promotes unhealthy competition.

SE needs to evaluate the way items are posted and put in place counter measures for flagrant price adjusting. Bot's are out of control in undercutting to the -1 gil method. So hit them where it hurts...their wallets. If they want adjust prices 15-20 times in a 10 minute period...fine...but they are going to pay for it.

This is MY opinion, but I suggest putting in a fee when adjusting prices. For the first 24 hours of placing an item you will incur a fee when changing the price of any item on the MB. This timer WILL reset every time you adjust your item's selling price. The fee will be 20% of the items listed price. i.e. 100,000 listed price = 20,000 in fees. There should be a penalty for early changes to sales to deter just always being first in line. If the bot community wants to implode a market fine....but they will lose millions if not billions in the process. While I still hold onto my fat stacks for being patient.

I would NEVER repost an item's price if it meant eating into my profit, and this would promote more INTELLIGENT pricing. And the largest thing missing from the MB this will ultimately give everyone....Patience! Fix the MB undercutting/bot fiasco and crafting/selling will be better, you fix gathering mindlessness and crafting difficulty will fix itself.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I would NEVER repost an item's price if it meant eating into my profit, and this would promote more INTELLIGENT pricing.

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"Intelligent" pricing is never going to happen in a MMO where many players have no interest in being intelligent about what they sell. Also, not everyone values their time and effort the same way, nor does everyone invest the same effort in getting the items they sell (see quick ventures and how rapidly they ruin many markets). You'd still end up with arguments over what "intelligent" pricing would be.

I actually do adjust my listing prices when it's clear the item isn't going to sell at the price I have it listed for. No sale equals no profit. Sale equals profit. But I don't compulsively check my items multiple times a day. I tend to check every things about once a week unless it's a very new item and I'm not certain where the going market rate will end up.

As for your fee suggestion, it would be easy to avoid by removing the item then listing it again instead of changing the price.

What I would suggest would be replacing the current market tax (deducted when an item sells) with a listing fee that is charged when the item is listed or the price is adjusted. Make the fee equal to the Sell to Vendor price plus a small percentage (20% is way too hight, 3-5% like the current market tax would be reasonable).

If players have to pay the fee upfront instead of only after it sells, they're more likely to consider whether the item is worth listing at all. Maybe it would clear out a lot of the junk on the MB that's getting sold at or below sell to vendor price. I'd miss being able to make tens of thousands of gil on my new characters before they even do their first combat quest but it might lead to a healthier marketboard.

Hey! It only took them close to 5 years to actually make scrip accessories even remotely viable in anything! /s

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If players have to pay the fee upfront instead of only after it sells, they're more likely to consider whether the item is worth listing at all. Maybe it would clear out a lot of the junk on the MB that's getting sold at or below sell to vendor price. I'd miss being able to make tens of thousands of gil on my new characters before they even do their first combat quest but it might lead to a healthier marketboard.

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I'd almost replace "listing" with "making", and that could create a scarcity of things. And, though I am not one, I would think the dedicated crafters would openly say that if it's not worth listing, it's not worth making either.

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Originally Posted by Wrestlefire769

I'd almost replace "listing" with "making", and that could create a scarcity of things. And, though I am not one, I would think the dedicated crafters would openly say that if it's not worth listing, it's not worth making either.

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Which is why there are items I used to make and sell but no longer do. Where once they were worth listing, they no longer are either because players no longer want the items or because quick ventures have flooded the marketboard with the items.

But the MB is more than just crafted items. SE needs to take into consideration the other items being sold when making decisions about fees to be charged.

I'm in analytics and looking at data is my thing. This helps a lot when I notice markets tanking and I buy large swathes of materials. It also helps to notice when a market is rising with no supply to produce LARGE profits.

I'm no major player by any means, but I will have 10mil one day and spend 8mil the next, but I take that 8mil investment and turn it into 20mil. The most I have ever had was 42mil and spent most of it (20mil) on sublime solutions, mid tier crafting mats (duskcourt, brashgold, defthands solution) and made 32mil just off of the demand going up. I only know this because I keep an excel spreadsheet on my purchases, cost per unit, and profit margins if sold. It's just what I do as a OCD kind of thing, but it helps me turn a profit vs. a loss.

If something doesn't sell at the price I listed I just pull it down until the next time that market goes up. And the key for any seller/crafter success DON'T OVER COMMIT! Making one item until you have 400 that you need to move to turn your profit is not good. You will playing the undercut game forever if you have to much of one thing to move.

Small amounts at a high price will almost always sell. Alchemist and Culinarian are a great example of crafting to much of one thing. Over commit on smoked chicken and the market will turn on you in hours, and you can thank bots for that, and people that what a quick buck for their goods.

I hate it just like anyone else when nothing sells, but patience and smart selling goes a long way.

Example: Seller 1 want's to sell 99 stack of Smoked Chicken for 6k a piece = 594,000 Gil needed for a stack
Seller 2 want's to sell 99 of their smoked chicken for 6k a piece also without undercutting, they sell theirs as stack of 6 for 6k a piece = 36,000 Gil needed for each stack

Now the real question is.... Which seller is taking more risk. Seller 1 with a all or nothing approach? Or seller 2 with a "cherry-pick what you want" approach?

Seller 1 has high risk high reward...everyone LOVES seeing those huge gil amounts splash on the screen don't they! But this could take much longer for the "right" buyer

Seller 2 has low to medium risk, and will more then likely sell everything in around 6-8 hours. The control is in the sellers corner giving the buyer more choices of the exact same item, just smaller purchase price. Low risk to seller, and low risk to buyer.


This hasn't failed yet for me and grants me loads of gil in practice. I'm constantly helping out my FC for market advice and buyout strategies that work for them. I don't intend on stopping even IF there is a fee for adjusting my price.

This is going to be an unpopular opinion haha... but I detest crafting/the grinde-iness of levelling crafting skills. I absolutely, absolutely, detest the time sink related to levelling those skill. Not only in ffxiv, but in any other game. It's so, so boring to me...

I can enjoy crafting If I know I need/want the item (ex; housing furniture). It's satisfying to be independent in that regard and not have to rely on the market board.

But yeah, I kind of appreciate that levelling crafting skills goes by so fast (so far). I just want to get to the point where I can craft the items i actually want or need, or that are going to serve me in any way in the game. (I don't craft for the money btw).

But I sympathize with your qualms about this aspect of the game being too easy. I feel the same way when it comes to dungeons/fighting instances.

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Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

lol? im happy it’s gone, the reason I mentioned it is because it’s to prove the point that they have no idea what they want for the future of crafting. the changes are very inconsistent

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How does this surprise you? Every expansion adds things that were never considered when they were designing the previous expansion. You know this and so does everyone else who has ever played an MMO.

"they have no idea what they want for the future of crafting."

Well duh. No one at Square Enix was thinking about level 80 crafting when the designed level 50 crafting, or level 60 crafting, or level 70 crafting. And no one at Square Enix is thinking about level 90 crafting until it comes time to design level 90 crafting.

And if you want crafting to be difficult so that HQ materials matter, stop penta-melding your crafters. I'll tell you a secret- SE is not going to design crafting around penta-melding except for the expert crafting in the Firmament.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

And if you want crafting to be difficult so that HQ materials matter, stop penta-melding your crafters. I'll tell you a secret- SE is not going to design crafting around penta-melding except for the expert crafting in the Firmament.

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Let's back up here. I can speak for pentamelded gear users here and say this. "Pentamelding is pretty much required for 510 HQ's" Food and Medicine can only get you so far, and without pentamelds...your pretty much wasting gil.

The pentamelded crafters will make HQ recipes easier and cheaper, and in doing so can purchase NQ mats. The perks of spending millions on materia melds. I don't have to farm or make HQ mats to make 510 items, and this is why most pentamelded crafters have the buying power to inhale normal mats over HQ. We just don't need them. Bonus is I just sell my HQ mats I don't need and rely mostly on NQ mats. Quick synth normal mats, sell the HQ's to someone without pentameld. Win-Win.

Same goes for gathering. HQ isn't my target, but a bonus. If 100% chance of HQ?...Kings Yield or Bountiful it is and just sell them.

I spent years in the trenches making NQ 60-70 items for 1/2 the price of HQ items, until I had enough gil to purchase all my first HQ Facet set, and I melded it to perfection. I decided I had enough of making little to no gil and dropped 8mil gil for one set of gear +materia. But that has made me 50 mil gil with the investment. I simply got serious about crafting, and pushed myself to become omni crafting/gathering.

Let me emphasis though! NQ and NON pentamelded isn't required to make gil! But if you want to be swimming in gil and have the buying power for the items you want....invest in your crafting gear BiS/Pentameld. I know it's hard to stay on the wave of "relevant" items and gear. I dropped 6 mil gil on asheste's gear/melding for 5.3 and made that back in 2 days, and didn't even think twice as I had the gil. The choice is ultimately up to every player, but let it be known "Your profits will be significantly impacted!"

Let's be crystal clear here. Pentamelding/BiS for crafting IS THE ENDGAME FOR CRAFTING! You won't make any serious gil with NQ gear and non-pentamelded gear.
You will craft faster, rely less on luck, and make WAY more gil when you spend less on HQ mats.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Let's back up here. I can speak for pentamelded gear users here and say this. "Pentamelding is pretty much required for 510 HQ's" Food and Medicine can only get you so far, and without pentamelds...your pretty much wasting gil.

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You might want to stick to speaking for yourself. You can get to 100% HQ on 510 gear with minimum required stats, 545 CP and HQ Blood Bouillabaisse if you're using mostly HQ mats. It's not hard to get mostly HQ mats this time around, especially if you're starting with some HQ raw mats.

Are you going to need a few melded pieces to get to the minimum requirements? Yes. Does anything need to be pentamelded? No.

Personally, I think end game is pretty poor if all there is to it is grinding out the right gear.

I get the feeling most of y’all would hate the fact I purposely try to crash the market for items I want to buy. It’s really easy to do too, just reduce the price of an item by a significant amount and wait for people to start undercutting. If I crash the costs of mats needed to make an item, usually the price of the item I want will drop significantly the next day. The added bonus is if you find a botter you can then rob them blind.

Another way to rob botters is by relocating your house to a new plot, and placing your retainer close to them so the bot auto clicks on the items your retainer is selling instead of the placard. You can list trash for millions and watch them buy it all up.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

The pentamelded crafters will make HQ recipes easier and cheaper, and in doing so can purchase NQ mats. The perks of spending millions on materia melds. I don't have to farm or make HQ mats to make 510 items, and this is why most pentamelded crafters have the buying power to inhale normal mats over HQ. We just don't need them. Bonus is I just sell my HQ mats I don't need and rely mostly on NQ mats. Quick synth normal mats, sell the HQ's to someone without pentameld. Win-Win.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You might want to stick to speaking for yourself. You can get to 100% HQ on 510 gear with minimum required stats, 545 CP and HQ Blood Bouillabaisse if you're using mostly HQ mats. It's not hard to get mostly HQ mats this time around, especially if you're starting with some HQ raw mats.

Are you going to need a few melded pieces to get to the minimum requirements? Yes. Does anything need to be pentamelded? No.

Personally, I think end game is pretty poor if all there is to it is grinding out the right gear.

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If you would have read my next line...I don't use HQ mats. I only use NQ mats, and your going to need to pentameld for that. Good luck using NQ mats trying to HQ a 510...because it is literally luck.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

If you would have read my next line...I don't use HQ mats. I only use NQ mats, and your going to need to pentameld for that. Good luck using NQ mats trying to HQ a 510...because it is literally luck.

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Your next line was irrelevant to what I was addressing. It was only relevant to how you personally choose to do things.

Read exactly what I quoted again.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Let's back up here. I can speak for pentamelded gear users here and say this. "Pentamelding is pretty much required for 510 HQ's" Food and Medicine can only get you so far, and without pentamelds...your pretty much wasting gil.

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I am a pentamelded gear user.

You do not speak for me.

Pentamelding is NOT required for 510 HQs. Certainly it makes things easier (which was pretty much the point of the person you had originally quotes) but it is not mandatory.

I miss these old legendary threads, seriously.

The only reason I craft is so I'm not held hostage by the Marketboard for items I use for glamour. I have the privilege of knowing at least two Master Crafters and many players who are at least Omni (DoW as well) and while I support people who main DoH/DoL, I don't exactly want a system that makes items virtually unattainable. It puts relevant materials at a high demand (where people buy them out on MB and scalp them for more money) and, well if you've ever done a complex recipe from the ground up (gathered/farmed/fished/desynthed all the the materials, crafting all the subrecipes), it is immensely disappointing to fail the craft. I think if anything, SE should do what Neverwinter has done and make an 'X=tries until guaranteed' algorithm into the crafting interface. Neverwinter depends on 'refining' items as part of their gear system and most items that can be refined come with a number that is assigned that no matter what, on that try you will succeed. It will still cost the same amount of mats each time you try, and you will lose those mats if you fail but with diligence you can still refine the item so long as you are willing to pony up the mats each time.

The numbers can get up there on the higher level stuff but that would at least give some hope to casuals. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

The only reason I craft is so I'm not held hostage by the Marketboard for items I use for glamour. I have the privilege of knowing at least two Master Crafters and many players who are at least Omni (DoW as well) and while I support people who main DoH/DoL, I don't exactly want a system that makes items virtually unattainable. It puts relevant materials at a high demand (where people buy them out on MB and scalp them for more money) and, well if you've ever done a complex recipe from the ground up (gathered/farmed/fished/desynthed all the the materials, crafting all the subrecipes), it is immensely disappointing to fail the craft. I think if anything, SE should do what Neverwinter has done and make an 'X=tries until guaranteed' algorithm into the crafting interface. Neverwinter depends on 'refining' items as part of their gear system and most items that can be refined come with a number that is assigned that no matter what, on that try you will succeed. It will still cost the same amount of mats each time you try, and you will lose those mats if you fail but with diligence you can still refine the item so long as you are willing to pony up the mats each time.

The numbers can get up there on the higher level stuff but that would at least give some hope to casuals. Just my 2 cents.

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There is no random failure mechanism in crafting. Unless you're are severely undergeared to the point spending CP to restore durability won't make up for low Craftsmanship or you just flat out aren't paying attention to what you're doing, you will always have an item when you're finished.

Not getting HQ isn't failure. It's just not getting the best possible result. When it comes to glamour, HQ is meaningless. It does not affect the appearance of the item.

Items will never be unattainable (assuming you're referring to being able to craft the item), or even unobtainable unless SE removes the ability to get the item completely. SE doesn't tend to work that way unlike some other game developers. But you will need to have the gear and skill level intended to produce the item. Not every player should be able to craft every item as HQ with minimal effort any more than every player should be able to clear Savage by simply auto-attacking.

Let's see who is trying to drag this one out of the closet and dust the cobwebs to try to spark life. hmmm