Can we get choices that really matter and have a effect?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Yes, that's why Avengers: Infinity War is such a bad film, right? /s

A story doesn't need to have audience agency. In fact, it probably shouldn't in the vast majority of cases: humans are a fickle, indecisive bunch. There are some good games that allow player agency, like the aforementioned Undertale, and there are some really, REALLY bad ones, like any of Quantic Dreams' games. Player agency doesn't a good game make. Want a good example? Let's stick with Toby Fox: Deltarune Chapter 1 is a short little game in which player agency and choice expressly, demonstrably means nothing. The character you created? Tossed out the window. Spare or kill your enemies? Doesn't matter they always run away or are pacified and always give you stats and currency. Choose to make a joke of a battle machine design for your enemy? Doesn't matter, it still attacks. But. It's still a wonderful little story with the great promise of something bigger.

This foolish idea that you need player agency to have a good story is absolutely crazy nutso, especially since we have, multiple times, shown you that the idea is demonstrably false and would simply cost too much time and resources. Just stop.

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um Avengers is a bad story really the only reason people go to watch that is the nonstalgic factor of Hulk smash or iron man or thors character not because of the story lol,,\\

In fact almost no one even cared about the story of that movie they just went for their favoirt characters..

also its not about agencys its about making twist,turns mindscrewers in the story be honest you knew what they were going to do to Emat,niddhog, zenos from the second you meet the characters that isn't good story writting if the second you show the character the viewer knows what is going to happan to that character...

I mean if you were really your character what would you have done be honest
because I would have helped hog destory ishgard
I would have tried to marry Zenos and help Emert

Ooooooh. Oh I get it, you're just delusional. Got it.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Ooooooh. Oh I get it, you're just delusional. Got it.

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not delusional its just the cold hard truth ... I mean its like eating mac/cheese its not that great until you add a kick like pepper or something sour/hot... To be more clear

Its like Goosebumbs vs Twilight books ... Goosebumbs is 150-250x better and its a for children book series on 3rd grade level why is it better well its because you don't know what is going to happan in each page until you have read it.

So for example heres a compare and contrast

If a story is written like:

So the man journeyed down the broken road upon reaching the end he meet a old man the old man could answer a single question which would either lead to the mans doom or his future. (by this single line you know the mans choice would lead to his future if he was the hero)

Now lets try that again.

The broken man walked down the road his journey left questions in his mind is it wrong to seek out vengence, or is it better for him to move on with his life. The silent whistles of the wind echo down the whistling trees path until he approchs the end of his journey a path light in flames or a path of ice. Upon stopping at the path the old man looks upon the man and ask what is it you desire will grant upon you many things but choice wisely for your choice will have consquences no matter what you choice. (this unlike before could go millions and diffrent twist and turns like a snake)

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

not delusional its just the cold hard truth ... I mean its like eating mac/cheese its not that great until you add a kick like pepper or something sour/hot... To be more clear

Its like Goosebumbs vs Twilight books ... Goosebumbs is 150-250x better and its a for children book series on 3rd grade level why is it better well its because you don't know what is going to happan in each page until you have read it.

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This is, unironically, the funniest thing you've ever posted.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

This is, unironically, the funniest thing you've ever posted.

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how is that funny ...

Yes A person could make fanfaction but honestly no one even really looks at fan fiction storys

As for what I want is for them stop given us a character we can relate to then killing them off because they are"bad"I fell in love with both Emet, and zenos from the start

its like what rwby did to Adam taurs when he had every right to want humanity destoryed and you felt for him and agreed

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Yes a story can have a single path and be good but not when it is your CHARACTER that is walking through it. It's one thing when final fantasy 7 or breath of fire or legend of dragoon forces one path because you aren't playing your character through it your playing a named character with a background premade and predesigned by the company. We design our character we choice his /her reasons for whatever. Its not like we are playing as Darts or Ryu that is premade to be angry/happy etc over story parts.

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I think you're seriously overestimating how much agency we're supposed to have over our character.

Yes, we get to choose what they look like, and we get to choose their name - but you can do that in a lot of RPGs, even ones with established names like Tidus from FFX or the entire cast of FFVII.

Beyond that choice of character appearance, we're on exactly the same story rails as any other RPG hero. There are established facts about our character, set by the story, that we have no control over. They have the Echo. They are chosen by Hydaelyn. They have an origin that is only just now becoming clear to both us and them.

That doesn't make it "not an RPG" or that they're "doing it wrong" by not giving us more control.

If anything, it's a difference between the Japanese and Western approach to RPG storytelling.

We are playing a character. We are role-playing by slipping into that character's world and mindset, and taking them through the story.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

not diffrent just to play out diffrent instend of softy save the world and dance in the rainbow sunline like pixies ... things can play out that way in fact all of that can be the same for people who truely want that softcoreness that has no depth whatsoever thats cool if it was for you...

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You keep repeating things like this. Clearly you are looking for a very different story experience than this game is trying to tell.

It's a separate issue to "having choices". You could have a dark gritty narrative that is one hundred percent linear. You could have choices and still have both paths be "soft and light".

Not every story is written for every person to enjoy. There are plenty of games I would never play because I don't want the experience they are designed to give. Or maybe if the gameplay is good enough I'll put up with the story. But if you don't enjoy it, find something else that you do.

I'm not saying this to mean "go away". But there are so many different games and stories out there that if you really dislike the theme of this one, it doesn't really make sense to hang around saying it should be like another game entirely. That other game is probably out there somewhere, while this game caters to those who do want to save the world and "dance in the rainbow sunshine", as you put it. Not that I've had much urge to do that particularly.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Not because want because it would make the story actrually worth something... because when you have a story that you know how its going to end their is no point in even reading/listening the story at all.

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That depends entirely on how enjoyable the journey to get there is.

In any case, I don't know how the story will end. In broad strokes, yes, we're probably going to save the world and there'll be some kind of bittersweet side to the victory. Beyond that... honestly I have no idea where the story is going to take us.

Even if I did know where it was going, I like this game. I like the characters. I want to see them have a good outcome in the end and be happy.

Again, if you don't want any of that, and you know how the story is going to end and you consider it pointless to engage in.... quite seriously, why are you here and not playing something else that you actually do get enjoyment from? Is the gameplay that good to make it worthwhile?

Same reason I joined wow Iscah to play in the final fantasy world but as my own person with my own thoughts,character devolpment that might work as a mercerny for some things but outside of it to create my own look story within the games..

I joined Wow because i liked sylvanas in war3 and the scourge and want to make my own story of death/scourge past and so on and choice my own single path within the games lore.

Final fantasy is the same I loved 1-10-2 and 13 was okay as was 11 ... to create your own character your own look your own story within a game series youve respected overall and make your own path.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

how is that funny ...

Yes A person could make fanfaction but honestly no one even really looks at fan fiction storys

As for what I want is for them stop given us a character we can relate to then killing them off because they are"bad"I fell in love with both Emet, and zenos from the start

its like what rwby did to Adam taurs when he had every right to want humanity destoryed and you felt for him and agreed

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Oh. Oh no. Oh sweety, did you genuinely relate to Emet-Selch and Zenos? And not just sympathize with them because they had an understandable motive to their rampant murder? Because most sane people just look at them and say "Cool motive; still murder." Because the atrocities they both commit are...well, atrocities. Emet has instituted mass genocide, not only on the shards but also on the Source. Zenos has not only wantonly killed civilians and his own subordinates, but has overseen the brutal suppressive regime on Doma. They are undoubtedly evil and in direct opposition to us, and you want to join them because "waaah i just want to have my old world back" and "waaah i had a bad childhood"? Are you for real?

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Same reason I joined wow Iscah to play in the final fantasy world but as my own person with my own thoughts,character devolpment that might work as a mercerny for some things but outside of it to create my own look story within the games..

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Yes, but that isn't what this game is designed to let you do. It's designed to tell a fixed story using a character you created but don't have full narrative control over.

That doesn't make it a bad game. It just isn't the game you were looking for.

Enjoy it for what it is, if you can, but don't expect it to become something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Oh. Oh no. Oh sweety, did you genuinely relate to Emet-Selch and Zenos? And not just sympathize with them because they had an understandable motive to their rampant murder? Because most sane people just look at them and say "Cool motive; still murder." Because the atrocities they both commit are...well, atrocities. Emet has instituted mass genocide, not only on the shards but also on the Source. Zenos has not only wantonly killed civilians and his own subordinates, but has overseen the brutal suppressive regime on Doma. They are undoubtedly evil and in direct opposition to us, and you want to join them because "waaah i just want to have my old world back" and "waaah i had a bad childhood"? Are you for real?

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Well I'm going to ignore that bottom part because thats personal to that I will say sometimes what Emet ,niddhog or even in rwby Adam did is the true justice and greatest good thats all I'll say to it to. Also your correct most people would say that because most people haven't experienced anything real to make them realize that sometimes great evil is the greatest good. That and they let society brain wash them to the point they cant think for themself.

I can't help but notice that the people who ask for more player choice in the story are usually the ones who want to side with the villains, no matter how obviously violent, deranged, insane, and/or genocidal they are. It's kind of concerning.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I can't help but notice that the people who ask for more player choice in the story are usually the ones who want to side with the villains, no matter how obviously violent, deranged, insane, and/or genocidal they are. It's kind of concerning.

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not really if you were in Emets shoes you would do the exact same thing he was doing ... everyone would and well honestly if you had any of those characters experience you would do the same thing .. nothing concerning about it just the way things work

Oh my god. I was being intentionally hyperbolic with my "delusional" post but you went ahead and proved it was spot on. Well done, I guess.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Oh my god. I was being intentionally hyperbolic with my "delusional" post but you went ahead and proved it was spot on. Well done, I guess.

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... know what I give up people can't handle anything with depth anyways because they lack any real fabric of understanding so I just give up... done trying to explain how everything can be seen has one way or another depending on a person/characters back ground

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

not really if you were in Emets shoes you would do the exact same thing he was doing ... everyone would and well honestly if you had any of those characters experience you would do the same thing .. nothing concerning about it just the way things work

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I would never choose genocide. If my people had been destroyed, I would have mourned their loss, erected a memorial and moved on.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I would never choose genocide. If my people had been destroyed, I would have mourned their loss, erected a memorial and moved on.

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really you would pretend like nothing happan while the people who forgot everything praises the one that destroyed your people like she is the hero doing nothing to change anything that is a type of betrayerl you know.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

really you would pretend like nothing happan while the people who forgot everything praises the one that destroyed your people like she is the hero doing nothing to change anything that is a type of betrayerl you know.

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Would you betray the memories of those who died by killing millions sacrificing them to a "God" to maybe bring back some facet of them, which may or may not actually succeed and may only make things worse?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Would you betray the memories of those who died by killing millions sacrificing them to a "God" to maybe bring back some facet of them, which may or may not actually succeed and may only make things worse?

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Not only that, but those people willingly sacrificed themselves to renew the world.

Now the Ascians want to take the life energy of that world and use it to revive those willing sacrifices.

Unless there are details we don't yet understand, it seems to be essentially undoing that choice they made, rather than honouring it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I can't help but notice that the people who ask for more player choice in the story are usually the ones who want to side with the villains, no matter how obviously violent, deranged, insane, and/or genocidal they are. It's kind of concerning.

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They are only villains because we see things from a very distinct perspective. But the Eorzean city states and the WoL could also be considered villains by looking at it from yet another perspective. We lie, cheat, kill, steal all the time, but we are portrayed as heroic for it because what we do is for the "greater good", but who is to say that looking at the situation from the Garlean pov or the ascian pov or the beast tribe pov or the name-any-other-faction pov, that the story we experience would be completely different.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Would you betray the memories of those who died by killing millions sacrificing them to a "God" to maybe bring back some facet of them, which may or may not actually succeed and may only make things worse?

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They did not kill, they were beings willing to give their energies to a force of renewal so that the whole may survive. I think you are confusing the ascians who gave themselves to zodiarc with slaves and prisoners viciously slaughtered in some vain attempt at appeasing a god. Emet clearly states that what they did could not be understood by man because man does not have enough empathy for his fellows and for his planet as their ascian ancestors did. Nor the willingness the see beyond their own fragile ego. And the way the events are portrayed on the forums, he was exactly right.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

They are only villains because we see things from a very distinct perspective. But the Eorzean city states and the WoL could also be considered villains by looking at it from yet another perspective. We lie, cheat, kill, steal all the time, but we are portrayed as heroic for it because what we do is for the "greater good", but who is to say that looking at the situation from the Garlean pov or the ascian pov or the beast tribe pov or the name-any-other-faction pov, that the story we experience would be completely different.



They did not kill, they were beings willing to give their energies to a force of renewal so that the whole may survive. I think you are confusing the ascians who gave themselves to zodiarc with slaves and prisoners viciously slaughtered in some vain attempt at appeasing a god. Emet clearly states that what they did could not be understood by man because man does not have enough empathy for his fellows and for his planet as their ascian ancestors did. Nor the willingness the see beyond their own fragile ego. And the way the events are portrayed on the forums, he was exactly right.

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"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"

Didn't work for Anakin, doesn't work here.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I would never choose genocide. If my people had been destroyed, I would have mourned their loss, erected a memorial and moved on.

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But if the souls of your people were shattered and you were able to reconstruct them, is it really genocide? Hydaelyn was more the perpetrator of genocide than the ascians in this situation. And wouldn't undoing that genocide be the actual good thing to do? Isn't that what we should be rooting for?

I look at the souls of the ascians as vases that zodiarc was in charge of keeping safe after an earthquake nearly knocked them over. Hydaelyn, however, pushed him out of the way and smashed all the vases with a hammer, missing only a few, then locked zodiarc outside. She then rearranged the shards to serve her own purpose,, but how is breaking back into the room, pushing her out of the way and reconstructing those pieces back into a whole vase again, be akin to or even worse than, their initial destruction?

The ascians do not want to destroy the world, they simply want to put the pieces of the world back together after a complete psychopath barged in an smashed it.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Emet clearly states that what they did could not be understood by man because man does not have enough empathy for his fellows and for his planet as their ascian ancestors did. Nor the willingness the see beyond their own fragile ego. And the way the events are portrayed on the forums, he was exactly right.

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Never mind the forums. The whole point of Emet's view of "all humans are petty and selfish" is that it's contrasted by the heroes who are willing to work and sacrifice themselves for the greater good - for those they know and for those they will never know, and for generations yet unborn. It's a running thread throughout the game that this is the best side of humanity, and it exists just as much as the worse side that Emet sees.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Never mind the forums. The whole point of Emet's view of "all humans are petty and selfish" is that it's contrasted by the heroes who are willing to work and sacrifice themselves for the greater good - for those they know and for those they will never know, and for generations yet unborn. It's a running thread throughout the game that this is the best side of humanity, and it exists just as much as the worse side that Emet sees.

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Emet also adds a note to the "hero actions" that all it does is breed more pain more suffering which is true the entire reason why the first was engulfed in light is because the hero want to save the world from darkness that without a plan or thought rushed in and created years of suffering for another to have to save them from.

This entire subject of it is the reason why the world will never have peace because everyone wants to be the wanna be superman and save a world when alot of times the Ivy,Lex luthor is correct. in this case Emet is right and the scions are completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I look at the souls of the ascians as vases that zodiarc was in charge of keeping safe after an earthquake nearly knocked them over. Hydaelyn, however, pushed him out of the way and smashed all the vases with a hammer, missing only a few, then locked zodiarc outside.

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You're assuming Hydaelyn deliberately shattered the worlds with malicious intent. We don't know that for sure.

We have no idea of the details of how it happened, or what Her intent was. She might have believed She was acting correctly and only intended to push out Zodiark, only for that act to have a run-on effect. Maybe it was deliberate to prevent a greater disaster, whether genuine or perceived.

Whatever the reason, it's not fair to judge until we have at least heard both versions of the story. There is still a lot we don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You're assuming Hydaelyn deliberately shattered the worlds with malicious intent. We don't know that for sure.

We have no idea of the details of how it happened, or what Her intent was. She might have believed She was acting correctly and only intended to push out Zodiark, only for that act to have a run-in effect. Maybe it was deliberate to prevent a greater disaster, whether genuine or perceived.

Whatever the reason, it's not fair to judge until we have at least heard both versions of the story. There is still a lot we don't understand.

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If it was an unintended effect, you would think she would also be trying to undo what she had done. But instead she is trying to prevent the rejoining from happening at all costs. There is no reason given other than "because I want you to, you are my chosen". You would think that if the consequences would be more dire than her just being dethroned, she would have mentioned it at some point. If nothing else it would just make us try harder if we knew that rejoining the shards would mean the end off all existence.

The shatter happened tens of thousands of years ago, I think the "wait and hear the reasons from the thing that destroyed us" approach to why we shouldn't try to recover from genocide went out the door many millennia ago and isn't really a reasonable option to begin with

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Emet also adds a note to the "hero actions" that all it does is breed more pain more suffering which is true the entire reason why the first was engulfed in light is because the hero want to save the world from darkness that without a plan or thought rushed in and created years of suffering for another to have to save them from.

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The First was on the brink of a Flood of Light because the Ascians had manipulated it to be in that state. And they were manipulating the heroes too. Their calculations failed because Ardbert chose to be more compassionate that they believed he would be. They underestimated the goodness of humanity, just like Emet does.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

This entire subject of it is the reason why the world will never have peace because everyone wants to be the wanna be superman and save a world when alot of times the Ivy,Lex luthor is correct. in this case Emet is right and the scions are completely wrong.

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That is entirely your subjective opinion. It is not fact, and it is not the intent of the story writers.

If you believe it to be the case, and expect it should happen to make a "good" story, you will continue to be sorely disappointed here.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You're assuming Hydaelyn deliberately shattered the worlds with malicious intent. We don't know that for sure.

We have no idea of the details of how it happened, or what Her intent was. She might have believed She was acting correctly and only intended to push out Zodiark, only for that act to have a run-on effect. Maybe it was deliberate to prevent a greater disaster, whether genuine or perceived.

Whatever the reason, it's not fair to judge until we have at least heard both versions of the story. There is still a lot we don't understand.

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expect we already know how that will go with Hydaelyn saying her story which wil be I did what was needed blah blah and of course our characters will believe it no matter what and side with her because the the other one is big bad darkness. That is really the way they will write it.

not even counting the fact of its a female character well kind of, its a light holy type design character so they are not going to make that up to be wrong in anything that she does even if it was on purpose.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

If it was an unintended effect, you would think she would also be trying to undo what she had done. But instead she is trying to prevent the rejoining from happening at all costs. There is no reason given other than "because I want you to, you are my chosen".

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There is a reason: to the best of our ability to understand right now, barring any complete reversals of Her apparent personality, Her responsibility is to protect life and act as a benevolent mother-goddess.

Once the shards are split, perhaps She sees each one as equally 'alive' and worthy of protection?

There's a vast difference between actively shattering the worlds for the sake of it, and doing it accidentally but then seeing it as more important to maintain these multiple lives than to forcibly collapse them back into each other.

Or perhaps there's some underlying greater evil that would result if the world was made whole again, but splitting the shards keeps them safe.

We just don't know. But I do know that the concept of "malevolent Hydaelyn" remains at odds with everything I have seen so far. There are reasons to raise questions and approach any further interaction with Her warily - but there is just as much reason to doubt the exact detail of how Emet regards Her. There is reason for him to portray those events negatively, regardless of whether they were truly negative or positive.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

expect we already know how that will go with Hydaelyn saying her story which wil be I did what was needed blah blah and of course our characters will believe it no matter what and side with her because the the other one is big bad darkness. That is really the way they will write it.

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After an awful lot of JRPGs which go the opposite way and have the benevolent goddess turn out to be evil all along, I'm quite looking forward to (I hope) having Her turn out to be genuinely benevolent. It will be a pleasant change for once.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I can't help but notice that the people who ask for more player choice in the story are usually the ones who want to side with the villains, no matter how obviously violent, deranged, insane, and/or genocidal they are. It's kind of concerning.

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Requoting because it's always true.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Requoting because it's always true.

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Would rather have the ability to question who is actually a villain or what is the greater good, than be blinded by my own righteousness. Those who follow their perceived goodness and rightness without question tend to be the most vilest of villains with the least regard for those around them.

I get that we can write our own fancition story I really do but what kills me what really kills me is how every game every single one of them in fact this days every anime every tv show everything gives you characters that you might have a trait or two or similar story to history wise and then they kill them off for no other reason than they bad and the others are good and flat out dismiss the characters completely. No there isn't other games because every game company does the same things in the storys like they are afraid of letting people to join forces with characters that match it. Even if RWBY made a online game they wouldnt allow you to join the white fang or Adam or even Raven because they afraid of the reaction by bloggers and parents honestly to let people join up with characters that have good reasons to act/do what they choice. None of the games are diffrent story wise just diffrent characters and worlds.

I mean i get why Adam hates humanity for my own reasons I get why he wants it destoryed ... in storys,music and art in general its created by emotion without emotions a story/music will always be trash.

So you build attachments to characters like Light yagami, Ivy, Lex, Adam,Raven etc or whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Snips

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Do you know what all those characters have in common. They. Are. All. Villains. Even Light Yagami was a Villain protagonist, you weren't supposed to sympathise with him. Especially when he jumped off the slippery slope with both feet.

Well I'm sorry the conventions of storytelling aren't going to change just so you can feel like a Edgyboi. P.S BTW If you derailed a D&D GM's campaign as hard as you wish to derail this games plot. Your characters would have so many rocks fall on them and have such a gruesome telling of thier demise you'd think you where playing Call of Cthulu. Sleep well.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Do you know what all those characters have in common. They. Are. All. Villains. Even Light Yagami was a Villain protagonist, you weren't supposed to sympathise with him. Especially when he jumped off the slippery slope with both feet.

Well I'm sorry the conventions of storytelling aren't going to change just so you can feel like a Edgyboi. P.S BTW If you derailed a D&D GM's campaign as hard as you wish to derail this games plot. Your characters would have so many rocks fall on them and have such a gruesome telling of thier demise you'd think you where playing Call of Cthulu. Sleep well.

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um first off non of them were villians due to the fact what they were doing was for greater good Light yagami literaly did nothing wrong he was just cleaning the world up, Mr freeze just wanted to revive his wife and had to make hard choices to do it and Ivy was helping nature non of that is in your terms "edge" or villian" if anything thats the purely diffrent. and Adam in Rwby was basicly fighting to make the fauns respected and free which also isn't "edge or villian"

the only thing that makes them seem like villians is they cracked a view eggs to make an omelet which is really no diffrent than a War movie of one side having to go to war to bring great good/change sometimes a character has to kill a few other characters in the story to bring great good/change that doesn't make them a villian.

now ffxiv wife Hog isnt a villian due the fact he seeks justice for his family that morals basicly destoryed..

Zenos just wants to play honestly and fight really no diffrent than the avarage citizen of ul'dah in the gladitor areana...
Gaius wasn't a villian he was doing what he felt was needed to save the land
Emet wasn't a villian because he wanted to fix things so what if things had to be destoryed to restore them.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

um first off non of them were villians due to the fact what they were doing was for greater good Light yagami literaly did nothing wrong he was just cleaning the world up, Mr freeze just wanted to revive his wife and had to make hard choices to do it and Ivy was helping nature non of that is in your terms "edge" or villian" if anything thats the purely diffrent. and Adam in Rwby was basicly fighting to make the fauns respected and free which also isn't "edge or villian"

the only thing that makes them seem like villians is they cracked a view eggs to make an omelet which is really no diffrent than a War movie of one side having to go to war to bring great good/change sometimes a character has to kill a few other characters in the story to bring great good/change that doesn't make them a villian.

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You know, the more you type the more I am convinced I wouldn't let you look after my cat. Heck I wouldn't even leave you in charge of a Houseplant. Stuff it, a Rock. Wouldn't even leave you in a room alone with a Rock.

All you have told me is that you have no idea what Heroes and Villains are and are just an 12 year old edgy tryhard.

You wan't to write the story and ending you want for this. Go ahead, be my guest, hon. It can be FFXIV's very own "My Immortal" xD.

Didn't Light kill a half-dozen random people in a very early chapter just to punish a bad driver? Freeze placed the possibility of healing his wife above the life of numerous guards and scientists that he killed to fund and push forward research. Ivy was often shown vigilante killing anyone that didn't agree with her narrow ecological viewpoints. Adam Taurus sent a squad to kill the Belladonna household for opposing him. I'm pretty sure I could keep going, but the list would get repeatable after a bit.

Just because they had what they felt were "good intentions"(FYI: Adam did not, he just wanted to hurt everyone that wouldn't worship him), doesn't mean that they aren't villains. It's actions that matter, not intentions. Emet-Selch could have a been leader that brought the survivors and children of the post-Terminus world into an age of peace of prosperity, instead he choose to lie, manipulate, steal, murder to further his personal goals. He's Salem, not Ozma.

edit: It's even funnier with your name. Considering that Meru was trying to atone for the actions of her people some 12.000 years past.

edit 2: I was wrong, he killed 6 people because a musclehead on a motorcycle was harassing a woman. In the first chapter. Gotta say, you're really pushing this edgelord thing past the point of logical debate.

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Didn't Light kill a half-dozen random people in a very early chapter just to punish a bad driver? Freeze placed the possibility of healing his wife above the life of numerous guards and scientists that he killed to fund and push forward research. Ivy was often shown vigilante killing anyone that didn't agree with her narrow ecological viewpoints. Adam Taurus sent a squad to kill the Belladonna household for opposing him. I'm pretty sure I could keep going, but the list would get repeatable after a bit.

Just because they had what they felt were "good intentions"(FYI: Adam did not, he just wanted to hurt everyone that wouldn't worship him), doesn't mean that they aren't villains. It's actions that matter, not intentions. Emet-Selch could have a been leader that brought the survivors and children of the post-Terminus world into an age of peace of prosperity, instead he choose to lie, manipulate, steal, murder to further his personal goals. He's Salem, not Ozma.

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Adam was one of the fauns that was tortured and enslaved that got a brand over his left eye from it so honestly he had a good reason.

Light didn't take out innocents unless he was left no other options to keep up his godly and needed to be done work (which was basicly 1 woman that he had to deal with) on the bus scene he only targeted the one that took the bus hostage. Plus Adam didn't send those people the 2 brothers did Adam was busy at the time that was going on with other things

Which I have to disagree to me personally its the intention that really matters which Salem is one of those types of characters that I didn't support until I learned her background since she honestly is only that way because the two gods didn't bring back her love and then they brought him back anyways her actions are not her fault its the fault of those two gods she is just doing what she has to.

Everything has a pure state btw to your edit until it realizes the true colors of things that makes that thing realize sometimes to really change and make things better they have to take on and do "evil" actions.

I mean Outside Light Can really you blame Salem for what she is doing or Emet or even Niddhogg/Adam or even Mr freeze all of those were once good /pure until they broke and had no other choice but what was forced on them to do actions they take is truely for a good objective so that alone justifys and makes any and every actions they take really the good guy design. Not even counting all Ivy wanted was to return the world and save the earth and nature/plants so she wasnt really a villian.

Ps I also put Banshee which in charmed was a witch that was suffering that transformed into a weebing spirt that screamed and went for revenge of the one that harmed them in the characters case it was Cole.

Which I'm not saying Id side by true villians just those who are honestly good guys that go about things in darker methods I guess the term for them would be Anti-heros when they seek out true good objective like the ones listed above did but they have to do some small bad things to make that objective happan. for example The joker/bane i'd never side with they really have no real reason to act they just do it because they want to.

To keep it focused on just one series, to serve as a general example. Because Adam was hurt by the SDC, he need to kill multiple civilians in Mistral via bombing. People that had no idea who he is, what happened to him. Just living their lives having their own worries. That's not justice or making things better by any stretch of the imagination. That's not even disproportionate retribution. That's just evil. Ozma died of a disease, not some horrible curse. Life happened. And the gods didn't punish her even after she lied to them. She lost someone important and didn't cope with it. Sounding a bit familiar?

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

um first off non of them were villians due to the fact what they were doing was for greater good [...]

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Quite simply, the problem here is that your personal sense of morality is so at odds with the writers of this story (if not society at large) that you are never going to find enjoyment in how the plot is resolved. Even if they gave you "choices", I doubt they would give you the sort of outcomes you seem to be seeking.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

Really the only game that does it is DnD fully and it works great....

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You keep using DnD in your examples of 'works great'. Are you speaking of a specific online MMORPG, or the tabletop RPG? They are vastly different things.