Hi SE, can we get rid of the current card system in next expansion, pls?

With regards to Ast changes that need to happen this expansion
- controller issues, this has to be addressed, 8+ macros should never be preferable to using it naturally. At that point there is a design problem. There are two ways to sort this, rework the targeting system which is a major overall so likely expansion only so it is out, or rework some of Ast's abilities a more likely scenerio since it'll be constrained to Ast alone rather than affecting every job.
-mp issues, some manner of secondary mp gain, there has been plenty of suggestions all rather easy to implement as well, devs just haven't bothered to think of one do bare in mind this was also said since 5.0 and the tweaks have been laughably bad to combat this, at this point it feels like intended Dev design.

Anything else can wait to 6.0 for changes like card system etc but they will probably tweak it just look at 3.0 brd had to wait to 4.0 for the loss of bow mage people liked bow mage but bow mage was unhealthy for the job as shown by brd in 4.X (other factors like crit meta etc were a thing but it is more about fun factor than numbers as evidenced by current Ast numbers best rDPS hlr btw still the least played by a huge margin).

5.X ast is 3.x brd to me an experiment to see what can work, that ultimately failed in its execution. I actually expect changes akin to 4.0 brd in 6.0 for ast there is a big enough stink like with brd from the vocal minority

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Shire card which was the "TP" card could of "Easily" been fixed to Direct hit buff, you know this, we all known this. It's actually not impossible to revert changes, it's a more of a matter are they willing to listen to their community or the small majority, high end raider/parsers/speed runners. There's been others classes that have got some of their abilities back such as SCH with energy drain, we need to have Royal Road back with our lore restored. You know why they won't explain? I think we've already come to the conclusion with that answer as mentioned before. Using TP as an excuse doesn't answer as to why other cards such as Arrow,Spear, and our loveable MP card were destroyed.

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I hope I'm not sending the thought I think the changes were good or anything. As thats not the reason nor am I defending them. All I'm trying to say, maybe badly.. is that I don't think its as easy as a flip of a switch. And unless they out right tell us which I don't see happening. We won't know how or why those changes were made. I just think it's not as easy as people seem to think it is. And maybe there's some reason they aren't reverting the changes. Who knows, now do I think they will? I honestly don't think they will, maybe it is simply because of them being hardheaded. I don't know. But with how most things go I'm willing to bet it's not as easy. Honestly I feel like something might break if they simply revert, maybe there was a reason why they didn't keep the other changes and just made all the cards damage up cards. My theory is simply because they saw the way people - the streamers and 1%ers- were mostly fishing for balance and figured everyone did that and made said changes.

It'll help if they just explained why they choose that option instead of being silent, that might've helped but they didn't so here we are. Tho looking at monk.. I wouldn't expect much honestly.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

I hope I'm not sending the thought I think the changes were good or anything. As thats not the reason nor am I defending them. All I'm trying to say, maybe badly.. is that I don't think its as easy as a flip of a switch. And unless they out right tell us which I don't see happening. We won't know how or why those changes were made. I just think it's not as easy as people seem to think it is. And maybe there's some reason they aren't reverting the changes. Who knows, now do I think they will? I honestly don't think they will, maybe it is simply because of them being hardheaded. I don't know. But with how most things go I'm willing to bet it's not as easy. Honestly I feel like something might break if they simply revert, maybe there was a reason why they didn't keep the other changes and just made all the cards damage up cards. My theory is simply because they saw the way people - the streamers and 1%ers- were mostly fishing for balance and figured everyone did that and made said changes.

It'll help if they just explained why they choose that option instead of being silent, that might've helped but they didn't so here we are. Tho looking at monk.. I wouldn't expect much honestly.

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I honestly think they're ashamed to tell us why and I don't blame them. This current card system needs to be unwritten, destroyed and never returned.

I think AST just needs to rethink how they SHOULD’VE balanced cards. We’ve done away with TP, but honestly there are different ways to fix it than the path they chose in 5.0. If they want to adjust AST in 5.2(provided they revert to Stormblood system and fix the Flow issue) then the following needs to happen:

- Balance can stay a 10% Damage Card.
- Arrow stays as 10% Haste.
- Spear turned into 10% Direct Hit.
- Spire turned into 10% Critical Hit.
- Bole is 10% Mitigation.
- Ewer stays at 50 Pot MP regeneration; only 18s instead of 15.
- Lord increases Melee/Tank Damage by 10%.
- Lady increases Ranged/Caster/Healer Damage by 10%.
- Get rid of Role system for Normal Cards.

This keeps the role system intact with Lord/Lady instead of doing a complete reversion to Stormblood, but mixes in the good elements with the Seal system. Every card has a use, and you generally have a choice in the hand you’re dealt along with the 3 Redraw Charges. We’d have the likes of Royal Road back, and Time Dilation can be reeled in to only increase the timer of card buffs only by 10s with a recast of 60. Stun would also be added back to Celestial Opposition, since AST have been lacking in a good way to give them breathing room.

It may be a lot, but the flow of the job will be back to what it was on top of Sleeve Draw no longer being a big stress button you have to push every 180s and just fill your gauge like it did last expac.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I honestly think they're ashamed to tell us why and I don't blame them. This current card system needs to be unwritten, destroyed and never returned.

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They are not ashamed, but I do believe they are a bit lost. It's not just with AST, but with healers altogether. I believe the current iteration of the card system isn't necessarily the result of the <2% savage stompers, but rather the realization of the illusion of choice that was the previous card system. I totally understand that the ability to offer varied buffs was fun and engaging for the individual AST; but as a raid provision, it was tofu. Your fellow party members wanted nothing but the over-seasoned beef that was your rDPS increase because the other card effects that offered MP refresh, TP refresh, and DEF increase were nothing but fodder for royal road or minor arcana. Even Arrow and Spear were frowned upon because it was all about AoE balance. Always.

If you used your cards for anything else, you were playing AST wrong, and I will not sit here and pretend that I wasn't at the opposite end of those same justifications; and force fed optimization when I argued how much I wanted to use those cards for the exact same purposes that are being used to revert the card system back. Now, all of a sudden the data used from savage content is the problem? "We need to consider all other content?" I used to say these things and was basically told that endgame was all that mattered because it is here that optimization is extremely important.

I totally know that this a cheap shot, and diverts away from the actual problem. I can't help but be a bit bitter towards the AST enthusiast back in SB who just loved how OP it was. At the same time though, I have a great amount of sympathy towards those who loved AST not because of all of its status, but rather because of its ability to do so much to assist with getting a clear.

I would really like to place a GREAT amount of emphasis on the last part of that statement: "THE ABILITY TO ASSIST WITH GETTING A CLEAR" I really hope that gets through to the devs, because a huge problem with healing right now, and has been TBH, is healers don't feel like they are contributing much when they smash one button with the occasional ogcd thrown in for tank/party longevity. Why do you think many of us get the most satisfaction when the shizz hits the fan, and by all means and purposes we should have totally lost the fight, but somehow made it through with clutch GCD heals, shields, and raises?

It is extremely satisfying to know that our timely heals is why we are still freakin standing. It is VERY satisfying to HAVE to use GCD heals during a fight (timing it perfectly with enemy cast bar shows skill and knowledge of the fight). However, currently getting through the ogcd heal + regen threshold is pretty much impossible in most situations. Especially for SCH and WHM. I can't even remember the last time I used a GCD heal on either of them outside adlo/regen. Even Medica II on WHM, I don't use it at all unless I'm screwing around, or have a group needing a little more help from avoidable damage. Whispering dawn along with other healer healing skills fall in here also. The majority of the time, I don't even need half of the heals I have access to and this is a BIG FREAKING PROBLEM!!!

Seriously. Imma gonna keep you at you 100% health and over heal here and there, and you wanna know why? Because I am literally sitting on half my tool bar. Don't worry, I'm not even clipping my GCDs for damage. I'm just mindlessly blasting you with all these ogcd heals I have between them because, why not? There is literally no consequence for doing so. Don't use enmity as an argument. 5.0 made sure tanks generate plenty with minimal effort.

In short, devs are pretty clueless when it comes to healers, and history shows they couldn't give any less of a eff about it too. But I also think they know that if they truly want to improve healer gameplay, they would actually have to change up encounter design. Healers have a lot of power, and the devs confidence in the rando healer seriously dictates how far they are willing to go. That said, the current state of healers would then imply that their confidence in us isn't all that great :(

Illusion of choice is a good thing when it is done in a meaningful way, the SB Ast card system was far from perfect but it was a darn site closer to being a meaningful illusion than ShB one is.

I loved Ast since 3.0 in its broken battered undertuned shell to its stupidly OPness in 3.4 to its now current state even with its cumbersome card system I can't hate it completely to put it down but I cannot understand the devs policy on Ast and healers in general.

Healers have been designed with group play in mind only, it is the only thing that makes sense with all the changes that happened to them, while this is an MMO and group play is a very big part of it, it is not the only part. This MMO has a very heavy emphasis on story and is regarded as a big solo experience with regards to that yet all 5.X healers have the worst solo experience in any MMO I have played, they are not fun when left on my own, they only get interesting at high end play at level cap synced content with dumb dumbs or ultimate which is so incredibly niche.

Take ast as an example,

Old card system,
-balance,bole,spear,arrow,ewer could all be used on yourself for beneficial effects while solo. Balance is defacto best but all are useful to you(this is the more meaningful illusion just because there is a best card doesn't mean it is the only one)
-spire being tp was useless to you so you had a 1/6 chance of drawing a useless card but it could be be MA to a heal or dmg both useful just different variations of useful.
-effects were instant and can be used freely outside battle with only downside wasted time.

New card system,
-all cards are useful but 50% of them are half as effective on you, from a solo stand point I want to redraw more often to get the better effects
-effects are instant but if used outside battle no seals are gained.
-Divination has too big a wind up for solo, you just do not get the effects by the time you kill things outside fates even B ranks die before you can get this off unless you use sleeve draw, also seals being gained only in combat doesn't help with your current fight only a future one if you plan on having one at all.

Both system have a far greater impact in parties but the old system had a better impact when solo than the new one despite Ast having the same dps rotation for both.

Devs one piece of advice look at healers solo then group play not just group play please for the next expansion do something about the tedium that is healers.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

They're either like me and defending it when we're bored and at work, or they're in the game enjoying it and not crying about it here.

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Or they just play it because they have an attachment to it after multiple years and don't feel at home on any other healer. I almost exclusively play AST when healing, doesn't mean I'm happy with the state of it.

this card system is just so boring. There has to be a way to do this and not make it as mindless. I truly don't even care what I draw and the buff is so short and so small it really doesn't feel rewarding or fun.

I think they won't revert the cards for one simple reason. Balance between the healers. And that becomes impossible when you have to try and take chance/RNG into account. That is why all the cards now give a damage boost and the difference between doing it "right" and doing it "wrong" is so minuscule. They have to know that as long as an AST is using their cards, even suboptimally, that they can still be balanced around an x% buff at worst or X+% at best versus what SCH or WHM can do.

So yeah, this is probably the sacrifice of them trying to balance all healers against each other. They obviously heard the complaints from WHMs in expansions past. Whether they went too far or not is probably beyond the scope of this thread's intended use though. Best to hope for if you do not like the current cards is that they redesign them again in a way that is more engaging or fun for you, but do not expect full RNG to come back to the fold. That is a balancing nightmare in and of itself. As someone earlier suggested, maybe if every card still gave a small damage+ boost in addition to something 'niche' or situational (i.e. bole,etc.) then card flavor could still least be saved perhaps.

Just my .02 cents. The new cards are atrocious. Known my FC's main healer a decade across 4-5 games; she rerolled after the Shadowbringers card changes. Decided to try it myself, I want to shoot myself rather than play it even while sub-lvl 50.

• Lore. Jannequinard: Behold the new card, the secrets of the stars reveal themselves tonight! Me: Oh you're giving me a "new card" of +3%/+6%? I already got all of them 10 levels ago. I really appreciate the buildup to this card in the quest (it's expounded on more than NIN's ninjutsu) but I've been using it (or have I?) for so long.
• Let's be honest. The real reason I rolled a healer is to farm the sweet sweet commendations. Is an AST rolling +3%/+6% going to have tangible results for people not running a DPS parse? Not really. Refresh MP, crit buff? Those stood out and I did hand out commendations for that. The current iteration? You could do everything perfectly, is anyone going to notice outside of a Savage raid?

The card system was a nonsense from day one. Choose any card - try again - try again.... A fairground amusement stall gimmick.
The card mechanic was introduced in an attempt to distance Ast from Whm when it was first introduced - as it simply copied/renamed several Whm core mechanics.
All that resulted in was a Ast v Whm battle.

Basically the card system is a busted flush, initially a "do you feel lucky?" mess, subsequently replaced by a hit this-get that mechanism which doesn't need the card identifier.

What they need to do is simply scrap it and introduce more differentiating skills. Skills that are selectable when needed - not a return to the circus stall lucky dip fiasco.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

The card system was a nonsense from day one. Choose any card - try again - try again.... A fairground amusement stall gimmick.
The card mechanic was introduced in an attempt to distance Ast from Whm when it was first introduced - as it simply copied/renamed several Whm core mechanics.
All that resulted in was a Ast v Whm battle.

Basically the card system is a busted flush, initially a "do you feel lucky?" mess, subsequently replaced by a hit this-get that mechanism which doesn't need the card identifier.

What they need to do is simply scrap it and introduce more differentiating skills. Skills that are selectable when needed - not a return to the circus stall lucky dip fiasco.

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Removing the card system from AST would be the "Worst" case scenario. I don't just play it because it looks pretty. So many people loved the old card system, just because you could not draw balance 80% of the time did not mean you were playing your class wrong. You made the best situation out of what you were given, and if you did, then you were playing it as intended. All it needed was a few tweaks to make the Spire card worth drawing. I don't wish to see AST turn into another WHM that will make me drop this class permanently. If you could not handle making the best out of what you were drawn, WHM and SCH were available options.