Speed Run + Timer

Very easy to spot who has and hasn't done CC and AV speed runs :)

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Originally Posted by Shaedhen

I mean there's 3 50 dungeons and for all of them it's the same deal : run through 90% of the enemies and rush for the mini boss and then do the same for the final boss.

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Maybe if they spent less time on the forums qqing and more time playing they would actually know how the new dungeons work.

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Originally Posted by Shaedhen

To answer the OP I'm not necessarily against speed runs but I don't like the way they work right now. To me it just looks like a very cheap way to implement the principle of "time attack" into the instanced raids. I mean there's 3 50 dungeons and for all of them it's the same deal : run through 90% of the enemies and rush for the mini boss and then do the same for the final boss. I don't have any fun doing that, no matter what job I'm playing. Not the mention that it makes the dungeons repetitive right from the start.

I think that, as some have already suggested, it would be much better if we had to make choices between multiples objectives once we're inside the instance. Go there in x minutes to get a mini boss to pop which will cause another path to close for example and to stick with the time attack thingy. Also, and this is maybe my biggest concern : make every enemy worth fighting against. Randoms mobs don't have to be extremely hard to beat but at least give them some valuable drops or something like CC where you have to kill some mobs simultaneously for something to happen so we don't just rush through everything to get the speedrun done.

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I'm agree with you.
I really did found speed run fun, really, but if the speed run is designed to get you the final reward, instead of killing a tough boss that drop it, there's a problem. It's look more an hack & slash than a mechanical game, where there should be more strategy.
I remember the time on FFXI where you were fighting a coeurl, you didn't want to face him or you'll get silence/paralyze.
You wouldn't want to wake up that boss early on dynamis San d'Oria because he could charmga everyone.
You would like to get a barfira in case a bomb toss make your party wipe.
There's a ton of mechanical missing in this game, speed run doesn't make it better.

Coincutter have a good mechanic way, what i saw on video is ppl bursting him and the tank didn't care much about his 100T swing, as he can (pld) avoid it easily but he wont fall down, speed run make you to burst everything and dont care about mechanic, that is just sad.

It's not even about skilled ppl, because everyone can do a speed run actually, it's not that hard, and Mog have proven with his video is it possible to do it with all the class, as long as you know well the dungeon, but before the video, did Mog's team was doing it with all the class ? it's a bit late for proof (even if it is a breath to see it can be done), now everyone is bored of the dungeon and is waiting the next patch, they'd rather go on the easy setup that everyone know the most to get the low drop rate armor that everyone want.

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Originally Posted by morpheus

Very easy to spot who has and hasn't done CC and AV speed runs :)
Maybe if they spent less time on the forums qqing and more time playing they would actually know how the new dungeons work.

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I'm not qqing, I'm just stating a personal opinion. I never said I did CC and AV speed runs either. I saw multiples videos and just like Nexxus said most of the time it's just either running without even caring about the mobs around you or zerg them so fast they don't even have time to hit you. Now maybe it's not what it looks like. But then why don't you just explain me how they work instead of tossing some pointless sarcastic comments ?

But hey, it's ok, you had to pass by and show how your e-peen is huge, I won't blame you for that ! I invite you to check the thread about the "talented" players being alienated by SE if you haven't already though, it seems way more fitted for you. ;)

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

What about Cutter's Cry? lol Not trolling, I just thought perhaps you would do that dungeon with the challenge as well.

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I'll give it a go, for now however, here is AV speed run, 1 of each class:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlLSzCff_o

Having to rush rush rush does not seem fun to me... I would like it more if there were other team based things you needed to do, say like... step on x amount of panels to open door or ... cast a whm, and blm spell on different devices at same time or... other such things

Hey Doc, is there a reason why my speed run only popped 3 chests? Does it have something to do with that slug at the beginning or the land traps later on? Or killing both rooms of legionaires?

We completed AV in 24:59, having 35:01 left on timer but only 3 chests popped. Wondering what we are doing wrong.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Hey Doc, is there a reason why my speed run only popped 3 chests? Does it have something to do with that slug at the beginning or the land traps later on? Or killing both rooms of legionaires?

We completed AV in 24:59, having 35:01 left on timer but only 3 chests popped. Wondering what we are doing wrong.

Thanks.

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Could just be latency/delay between your timer and the timer server side. :01 of buffer is way to tight to guarantee a success. Also the timer you see is client based and not server based, so players could end up having different timers (noticed that during ifrit battle, when someone called time when pillars pops, there was a good 5 seconds (at least) difference with my own timer)

Same issue existed in XI as well, I remember getting a Dynamis time extension exactly right the time was over, in the logs it would say : "Time has been extended by 30 minutes" and right after "You'll be removed from the area in X seconds".

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Originally Posted by Antipika

Could just be latency/delay between your timer and the timer server side. :01 of buffer is way to tight to guarantee a success. Also the timer you see is client based and not server based, so players could end up having different timers (noticed that during ifrit battle, when someone called time when pillars pops, there was a good 5 seconds (at least) difference with my own timer)

Same issue existed in XI as well, I remember getting a Dynamis time extension exactly right the time was over, in the logs it would say : "Time has been extended by 30 minutes" and right after "You'll be removed from the area in X seconds".

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I was afraid of that. Although, we had at least 4 pt members who registered 35:01 on time so /meh

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Hey Doc, is there a reason why my speed run only popped 3 chests? Does it have something to do with that slug at the beginning or the land traps later on? Or killing both rooms of legionaires?

We completed AV in 24:59, having 35:01 left on timer but only 3 chests popped. Wondering what we are doing wrong.

Thanks.

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Here is my AV 5 chest speed run tutorial, it might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2bPOfKoL5A

There should be an all mobs vanquished achievement for every dungeon. That way there is a reason to slow down and return to a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Here is my AV 5 chest speed run tutorial, it might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2bPOfKoL5A

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I already watched it, and our set up is pretty close to yours so yeah I am indeed confused. It's no big deal though, I'll write it off as server latency and nuke harder next run.

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Originally Posted by Agoven

There should be an all mobs vanquished achievement for every dungeon. That way there is a reason to slow down and return to a dungeon.

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This is quite possibly the best idea proposed in all threads complaining about speed runs being linked to loot.

SE could implement conflicting coffer requisites that make it so all coffers cannot be obtained in 1 run; for ex:

Normal run = 3/5 coffers from boss
Speed Run = 4/5 coffers from boss
All Mobs run = 4/5 coffers from boss

the catch is that the speed run chest cannot be obtained by doing an all mobs run (because there isn't enough time to kill all mobs while doing a speed run) and vice versa; the all mobs run pops a chest that cannot be obtained by speed run but in turn does not pop the speed run chest.

This way people will have reason to do both speed runs and non speed, but all mob, runs in order to get all the loot. It would then be logical to split up the darklight or whatever other gear between those two chests.

from left to right:

1. killing middle slug on first poison room around 1:40, first slugs we targetted.
2. clearing imperials room.
3. kill molbor
4. speedrun
5. open all chests.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

OP was saying that speed runs are stupid, and while you CAN do them with diversity it favors job stacking. You can do them all NP with whatever jobs,true, but it doesn't make it the most effective method. I agree with OP, btw. Speed runs for best loot is not a challenge, speed runs ARE.NOT.HARD. Its a stupid, random hoop to jump through to create a wonderful time-sink to bide time til content. I'm glad you can do it with all the jobs, but having a few minutes left over compared to job stacking and having 10-12+ minutes left over... kinda supports the OP's idea in the OP. lol

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Obviously this person is a huge troll, runs around every thread posting like they know anything about everything.

Clearly has not done a speed run, and probably will never.

Good groups run about 5-6 minutes under the cut off, in a PERFECT run. Most runs are 2-4 minutes before the cut off. Just an FYI. Good attempt though.

Having speed run drop bodies is the best idea SE ever had. Pick-up parties getting bodies, NOTHANKS.

Going 0/30 on bodies is also nothx, but that's a different convo.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

from left to right:

1. killing middle slug on first poison room around 1:40, first slugs we targetted.
2. clearing imperials room.
3. kill molbor
4. speedrun
5. open all chests.

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Do you have to kill both rooms or just the second room of imperials?

We were told only the second room spawns chest, in which case that would have been our undoing.

Personally, I dislike speed runs for the reasons that the OP raised. While I understand their place in the game is primarily for a test of skill and achievement, what this actually translates to is players forcing others on to other jobs that are considered optimal for the task (i.e all Black Mages to sleep, or all Warriors to run through).

And while that may be normal even for a none-speed run, what becomes annoying is when a party will constantly restart the dungeon whenever a mistake is made that could deem a speedrun unfeasible. Countless times I've been in a party of speedrun obsessed players who will restart and kick players who cannot keep up with the speedrun; an aspect of gameplay that is easily forgotten after the fact, and is just as easily ruined by server lag wherein parties get stuck frozen for long periods of time before a cutscene should begin.. a cutscene that everyone must skip and never enjoy.

The unfortunate reality is that SE continues to put hard work into small details in their game, and then creates gameplay elements wherein players must skip these details. There is a serious problem in the design of this game when a timer begins as soon as an intro cutscene begins, because you cannot skip said cutscene until it has loaded enough to begin. Why must I mash the keyboard in an attempt to skip such a beautiful piece of cinematic art so that I can keep up with my party, as they begin charging as fast as possible to make up the half a minute that has already been lost just trying to skip the scene.

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Originally Posted by Kye

Personally, I dislike speed runs for the reasons that the OP raised. While I understand their place in the game is primarily for a test of skill and achievement, what this actually translates to is players forcing others on to other jobs that are considered optimal for the task (i.e all Black Mages to sleep, or all Warriors to run through).

And while that may be normal even for a none-speed run, what becomes annoying is when a party will constantly restart the dungeon whenever a mistake is made that could deem a speedrun unfeasible. Countless times I've been in a party of speedrun obsessed players who will restart and kick players who cannot keep up with the speedrun; an aspect of gameplay that is easily forgotten after the fact, and is just as easily ruined by server lag wherein parties get stuck frozen for long periods of time before a cutscene should begin.. a cutscene that everyone must skip and never enjoy.

The unfortunate reality is that SE continues to put hard work into small details in their game, and then creates gameplay elements wherein players must skip these details. There is a serious problem in the design of this game when a timer begins as soon as an intro cutscene begins, because you cannot skip said cutscene until it has loaded enough to begin. Why must I mash the keyboard in an attempt to skip such a beautiful piece of cinematic art so that I can keep up with my party, as they begin charging as fast as possible to make up the half a minute that has already been lost just trying to skip the scene.

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I'm not sure what party, or who you're running with. But anyone who exits the dungeon just because you messed up on a speed run is a complete FOOL, or everyone has full DL from the dungeon (which they don't).

Takes 15 minutes to reenter when you willingly exit, takes about the same time to clear the dungeon (by the time you have determined that your speed run is failed.)

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Originally Posted by Agoven

There should be an all mobs vanquished achievement for every dungeon. That way there is a reason to slow down and return to a dungeon.

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In Cutters, you have to kill almost every mob to clear it anyway. The only ones you can skip are a few mobs in the cactaur room and the last few peistes before the final boss.

I don't get how people think that clearing every single mob is somehow more "honorable" than clearing the dungeon quickly. It's just easier. It's for people that believe timesink > challenge. Changing the speed run condition to a "clear all mobs" condition lowers the incentive to perform well and the sense of achievement you get from completing something difficult.

Some people just need to accept the fact that they can't get every item in the game if they aren't willing to put in the effort involved in clearing a speed run. There are so many complaints about how this game is too easy when other people clear the endgame content in a few days. Yet when it comes time for them to do the content themselves they complain because speed run is too hard or that it forces them to play in a style they don't like.

What this says to me is that the level of difficulty is actually pretty fair. Of course, the drop rates are not. I think every sensible person believes that reward should be proportional to the level of difficulty involved. If SE made a dungeon with no timer, they would most likely reduce the usefulness of the rewards. Are people going to do dungeons that don't offer best-in-slot gear? Is designing that even worth the effort? Look at Totorak and Shposhae and I think you'll find your answer.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

let us taking our time finishing the dungeon, optimisation should only be strategy and gears, not jobs.

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In a game that lets you switch classes on the fly, having the right party setup will always be a part of optimization.

I consider the ability to change party makeup mid-dungeon one of the main strengths of this game. It's very FF5ish. Speed run itself is not the problem if you can't play your favorite job to complete it. The real issues are:

1) The Armory System
2) Class balance
3) Unwillingness of players to experiment and make other setups work

Well done DocMog, my hat is off to you.

i'm sure that all the top linkshells and players can agree that speed runs are not our ideal situation and we'd like to see content handled differently.

y'all whining about jobs and all this other bullsiht are fcukin stupid and you're gonna get me banned from the forums again, thanks!

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Originally Posted by kro

In Cutters, you have to kill almost every mob to clear it anyway. The only ones you can skip are a few mobs in the cactaur room and the last few peistes before the final boss.

I don't get how people think that clearing every single mob is somehow more "honorable" than clearing the dungeon quickly. It's just easier. It's for people that believe timesink > challenge. Changing the speed run condition to a "clear all mobs" condition lowers the incentive to perform well and the sense of achievement you get from completing something difficult.

Some people just need to accept the fact that they can't get every item in the game if they aren't willing to put in the effort involved in clearing a speed run. There are so many complaints about how this game is too easy when other people clear the endgame content in a few days. Yet when it comes time for them to do the content themselves they complain because speed run is too hard or that it forces them to play in a style they don't like.

What this says to me is that the level of difficulty is actually pretty fair. Of course, the drop rates are not. I think every sensible person believes that reward should be proportional to the level of difficulty involved. If SE made a dungeon with no timer, they would most likely reduce the usefulness of the rewards. Are people going to do dungeons that don't offer best-in-slot gear? Is designing that even worth the effort? Look at Totorak and Shposhae and I think you'll find your answer.



In a game that lets you switch classes on the fly, having the right party setup will always be a part of optimization.

I consider the ability to change party makeup mid-dungeon one of the main strengths of this game. It's very FF5ish. Speed run itself is not the problem if you can't play your favorite job to complete it. The real issues are:

1) The Armory System
2) Class balance
3) Unwillingness of players to experiment and make other setups work

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This^^

+1..

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Well done DocMog, my hat is off to you.

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Thank you.

From now on when new content hits, I won't be uploading our first kill.

Instead, I will reform the party to something more diverse, and beat the boss again, I'll upload that video. Maybe it will help the community realize that diversity is indeed possible.

I can see why people would want to just do what works, and by watching the top LS's vids want to stick to those tactics instead of trying something new.

By doing what I said above, hopefully I can force some innovation on the community by NOT releasing our videos of optimal setups.

On being forced to class stack, it might be a whacky theory but I've found people perform best on jobs they like playing which usually makes runs go more smoothly especially after some practice and following directions.

Side derail: I was introduced to straight tanking Coincounter today, how reliable is using Featherfoot to avoid 100-ton Swing if anyone has tried it? Foresight was phenomenal so I'm curious about Featherfoot.

edit: Another question: In the future if my group gets good enough to Speed Run, do you need to fulfill the requirements for all chests in order to get the chest that has the "best items" or is it only the Speed Run chest that gives them?

Featherfoot is really nice, you can dodge almost 90% of 100T Swing, but if you don't, you die, so i dont suggest you to use it.

Only the speed run give the 5th chest, you can skip the others chest pop condition if your only interest if this chest.

Thank you.

And that is nice about the Speed Run chest. It's seriously not a problem at the end of the day then since you will most likely get all you need from the other chests long before you get what you need from the Speed chest (although if your group is large it's understandable to want all of them to pop at once) and if you don't have to spend time fulfilling extra conditions you can save some time.

I wonder if everyone realizes you don't have to get all 5 chests and a speed run.

You can get the speed run by itself you know.. skip another chest or two to save enough time to get the speed run chest.

For instance, skip the killing of imperials to shave off 5 minutes and get the speed run chest instead.

just sayin'

You also wouldn't have to go out of your way to get Spiked Armguard chests =P

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Originally Posted by Estellios

You also wouldn't have to go out of your way to get Spiked Armguard chests =P

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But

WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULDN'T!?

Speed runs aren't a bad idea... I would just like to see alternative objectives also...
Like maybe a boss that can be completely skipped... but killing it makes an extra chest pop up after the Morbol...
or even 3 optional bosses throughout the dungeon....
It still would amount to a speed run though because getting to and killing the three optional bosses AND the Morbol in one hour run would require a lot of push, drive and skill

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Thank you.

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I was actually impressed that all classes were present... aside from a couple Mog deaths it was actually a very well done run....
The only thing I didn't like in the video was the way Midlander females run... I've hated it since launch...
Do you think you'll change race if given the option at 2.0?

Do you guys want to know the real reason timers exist, and thus the implementation of speed timers? Because SE can't devote enough servers to each individual instance and can't have parties inside the instance for more than X amount of time otherwise other groups wouldn't be able to participate.

GG SE NO RE

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Speed runs aren't a bad idea... I would just like to see alternative objectives also...
Like maybe a boss that can be completely skipped... but killing it makes an extra chest pop up after the Morbol...
or even 3 optional bosses throughout the dungeon....
It still would amount to a speed run though because getting to and killing the three optional bosses AND the Morbol in one hour run would require a lot of push, drive and skill



I was actually impressed that all classes were present... aside from a couple Mog deaths it was actually a very well done run....
The only thing I didn't like in the video was the way Midlander females run... I've hated it since launch...
Do you think you'll change race if given the option at 2.0?

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I would love to be Viera.

And yeah, I sucked hard, I don't get to DRG often XD.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I would love to be Viera.

And yeah, I sucked hard, I don't get to DRG often XD.

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You didn't suck... Coincutter hits like a monster (I guess he actually is a monster) and swipe comes really fast

Im not gonna lie.. I was on the edge of my seat at the last second of it... 35:00 on the dot... priceless...
You can't plan it better than that

Well if people didn't have to maximize DPS in order to get the speed run, we wouldn't have the current problem of people preferring WAR over PLD. Fights should be about difficulty, not how fast you can blow through cream puff mobs...

I blame this whole thread on Darklight armor.

If you could easily craft better armor or it dropped from any chest, this thread wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

I blame this whole thread on Darklight armor.

If you could easily craft better armor or it dropped from any chest, this thread wouldn't exist.

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and there would be a different thread in it's place