Lack of action against gathering bots, it needs to be changed, and soon

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Stop making mountains out of mole hills here.

What the GM is meaning that you shouldn't exert punishment on your own, but instead report the suspicious individual.
'Vigilante justice' can always hit someone who isn't involved in all this, which is why support need those reports to investigate whenever those accusations are true or false.

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Hellooo, literally the whole thread is about GMs not reacting to reports of cheaters doing their business, with some of them doing it since HW expansion. Wake up dude. Or did you just grab my comment out of context just to try to prove your point?

I don't think it's so much a matter of them not investigating as it is the manner they go about doing it is extremely flawed, because people wouldn't be getting banned at all otherwise (I've read first-hand accounts from botters who got banned that show that their numbers aren't just empty fluff).

I suspect they are not doing actual in-person investigations and are instead just using a packet viewer or some other monitoring tool to look for unusual data being sent from a player's client as the botting programs do allow people to do things that are not normally possible using the in-game control schemes. However, even that seems flawed as I've witnessed things like bots triggering skills while they're still in the middle of cutscenes or toggling gathering abilities while they're still on a loading screen (This manifests as buff notifications appearing in an empty space next to the aetheryte they're warping some five to 10 seconds before they actually load in visibly). I've also witnessed them targeting things through walls as well as keeping things targeted from far outside the range a normal player would be able to (Mostly can be observed with aetherytes).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Bots are pretty inconsequential. They're like hyper weeds... if they ban one, two more come back in it's place. There's really no point in wasting time and effort banning bots.

SE focuses on the end result: RMT. Every ban wave, they ban thousands and thousands of accounts linked to RMT (either selling or buying), and ultimately that is the goal anyway.

Bots being at the same mining node really doesn't hurt you as a player. And the bots themselves don't do the selling on the Market board, that is done by other accounts.

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The RMT bots can't be controlled with bans. They can create new accounts literally the instant they get banned then hit level 50 again within 24 hours, leaving them with the rest of the week to farm gil; not to mention the bulk of their gil is obtained via quest completion anyways so they've already amassed a sizable sum by the time they start farming Amdapor Keep.

Also, they almost never actually ban buyers and the accounts doing the selling are expendable. The vast majority of the bans you see in their reports are for their expendable farm bots, with a fair amount of bans also being issued to their spam bots, but ultimately, buying gil being so low risk is partly why the trade is able to flourish.

On the other hand, it takes a substantial amount of time for people to create even just a DoL bot due to the MSQ locks and what not, as they need to complete all of the MSQ quests manually even if they opt to get around the EXP walls by FATE botting.. They could easily be kept in check if their enforcement teams were capable of identifying their repetitive behaviors and abnormally long periods of activity.

No, having the bots gathering with other players isn't harmful due to the thankfully instanced nature of nodes, but having them selling things at prices that are scarcely profitable for people who are actually playing the game is. Also, there very much are DoH bots who are tied to the RMT trade. There's one on Cactuar right now who's so persistent about trying to control the market via 24/7 gathering, crafting, and undercutting that I can't imagine them doing it for any other reason and they're very obviously an alt account judging from how the absolute bare minimum has been put into everything about them that isn't tied to DoL/H classes.

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Originally Posted by BothFawn

Judging by what I see people saying in this thread, is it safe to assume that botting is ultimately... allowed?

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Basically, along with RMT. I know of some bots that were banned, but it took the STF about 2 years to do it.

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Originally Posted by BothFawn

by a GM who literally doesn't care that there is a cheater running around

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Has nothing to do with caring. GMs are not allowed to do anything about them. If a GM threw one in jail or issued a temp ban for "automated gameplay" the punishment would be reversed and the GM would lose their job.

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Originally Posted by BothFawn

I really wonder what is Naoki Yoshida's stance on this. And I mean what he is REALLY thinking about it.

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Along with RMT, the devs don't want players doing it, but they won't be taking any additional actions to combat such behavior at this time (because money). Now, if the number of players doing it were to spike to where it couldn't be ignored, then they might take action.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I expect some measures to either be in place by, or be set up after, the ishgard rankings start. Because bots will basically rule that

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Maybe, maybe not. How long did it take them to fix Triple Triad tournaments? Hunts on release received backlash and were adjusted, but they've done nothing about radar until ShB when they gave everyone a poor man's version for B and S ranks. If crafters stay inside an inn, an apartment or their house, how would anyone know they were botting?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Bots are pretty inconsequential. They're like hyper weeds... if they ban one, two more come back in it's place. There's really no point in wasting time and effort banning bots.

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Player bots can't sprout up as fast.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Bots are pretty inconsequential. They're like hyper weeds... if they ban one, two more come back in it's place. There's really no point in wasting time and effort banning bots.

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This is incorrect as it pertains to the bots I am talking about. The gathering bots that do the most damage require time to level up to max (both a combat class and all gathering classes), and given most of these bots are (probably) not involved in RMT, banning these bots makes it unlikely for the problem to come back from the same source given the time and money investment.

If a player does decide to "sprout" a new bot after a ban, at the vert least, it will take some time for it to level back up.

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Originally Posted by Oxidized

This is incorrect as it pertains to the bots I am talking about. The gathering bots that do the most damage require time to level up to max (both a combat class and all gathering classes), and given most of these bots are (probably) not involved in RMT, banning these bots makes it unlikely for the problem to come back from the same source given the time and money investment.

If a player does decide to "sprout" a new bot after a ban, at the vert least, it will take some time for it to level back up.

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Squeenix should be doing nightly bot raids. Have a special bot response team. They've got the cash. Have a team, 2 people, round the clock, working in shifts, to jump around to the known botting points to hunt down and take out bots.

No wave bans. Just bam. Insta-ban. Track who these bots gave items to, or gil to, and investigate them for a suspension. As a cost to this add a 3 day suspension Empty their inventory of mats/crafting items, and reduce their gil to 100,000.

That would teach the botters.

That's another issue is that in the odd event someone does actually get caught botting the initial punishment is so small that many of them simply just go right back to it due to how low the chance of them being caught a second time is.

They should do a background check to determine whether or not it looks as though the player has been abusing it for a lengthy period of time (Looking into their gathered/crafted item counts would be a very easy to expose them) and punish them accordingly.

Instead of pointlessly raging about bots, just use their cheap resources and save some IRL time on gathering.
I don't see the problem. Gil is pretty much useless in FF-XIV.

Yes SE should curb their activity more and ban their users. Is it a drama if they do not? Not really.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Bots being at the same mining node really doesn't hurt you as a player. And the bots themselves don't do the selling on the Market board, that is done by other accounts.

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For people, who enjoy gathering, they do hurt. I started off a BTN/MIN before moving onto crafters when I observed how futile it is to compete against bot farms who gather 24/7 for months.

Why should DoLs be deprived of something they enjoy and a chance to make decent gil?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Instead of pointlessly raging about bots, just use their cheap resources and save some IRL time on gathering.
I don't see the problem. Gil is pretty much useless in FF-XIV.

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Gil is the currency of time and convenience. You can bypass many grinds with gil.

Don't feel like doing Eureka but want the hairstyle,mounts and minions?

Buy them off the Market Board with gil.

Don't feel like gearing up alt jobs with tomestones?

Buy crafted gear off the Market Board.

As a crafter main, I've probably benefited from gathering bots. But it hurts legitimate gatherers who enjoy gathering and who are trying to make decent gil.

Secondly, FFXIV's economy is supposed to be a player-driven economy.

Which means it's part of the MMORPG theme park.

Why should legitimate players who enjoy crafting/gathering/playing the Market Board be deprived or hindered by cheaters?

I assume most players don't care because anything which is not combat content is not important but I'd like to point out apart from the MSQ,everything is optional.

Lastly, I'm going to be petty about this; I hope for those people who keep telling DoL/DOHs not to care about botters, the content that you do enjoy seriously gets infested with bots.

Maybe then, SE might decide to seriously tackle botting.

Can anyone tell the bots to check prices on new aethersands? We're running out here.

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Originally Posted by BunnyChain

Can anyone tell the bots to check prices on new aethersands? We're running out here.

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Come over to Crystal, our MB is being stocked full of 1000+ new sands of each type per day on most of the servers not named Balmung or Mateus.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

As a crafter main, I've probably benefited from gathering bots. But it hurts legitimate gatherers who enjoy gathering and who are trying to make decent gil.

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Many of the people who operate gathering bots also operate bots that mass-produce pots and food (and probably endgame gear too), driving prices down so low it is no longer worth your time to make.

I know that the one bot I am going hardest after currently does this.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Instead of pointlessly raging about bots, just use their cheap resources and save some IRL time on gathering.
I don't see the problem. Gil is pretty much useless in FF-XIV.

Yes SE should curb their activity more and ban their users. Is it a drama if they do not? Not really.

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This is not about drama, but about being able to enjoy a game that largely gets casual content right. There is no drama if the bot problem continues and I find myself unable to enjoy the great DoH/DoL systems that the devs created and expanded upon, I simply move on to a game where I believe the playing field to be fairer, even if it is an inferior product. Sadly, I know a few people who have already went this route, and I know that I will probably be joining them in a couple of weeks, only coming back intermittently to check out the major content releases that pique my interest.

GMs are too busy responding to every little Manchild or womanchild that is sending them reports for someone saying a cuss word now a days.

If ban waves were slow before theyre at a dead stop now until people learn to deal with other players on their own instead of running off to daddy GM over ridiculous reports of so and so said the F word in chat, ban him! Taking up too much GM time when they can just use blacklist.

Until then ya, Im gonna just have to put up with not making any money gathering. Prices are stupid low, worse then ever. Thanks blizzard for dumping all your poop over here.

I mean, TIMED node materials 700g each??? wth, Non timed node mats are 800-900, of any type. Who are these people and how freaking old are they?

But ya end of the day, its just going to get worse because people are treating the ToS like their own personal ban hammer and acting like little babies. SE isnt going to hire more GMs just because people want to act like theyre 12 and report everything under the sun, instead of investigate real reports that matter like gathering bots, so thats where their focus is all at now instead of on our precious gathering materials


Honestly Im surprised I dont get reported for being a viera with my cheeks hanging out at this point!

I honestly think the gather bots in WoW are less of a problem then they are here simply because while they can be created more quickly you can actually get them banned if you report them.

The number of bots in XIV has just been swelling as time goes on and the usual suspects from as far back as HW on my server are still around but have been joined by several new faces at this point.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I honestly think the gather bots in WoW are less of a problem then they are here simply because while they can be created more quickly you can actually get them banned if you report them.

The number of bots in XIV has just been swelling as time goes on and the usual suspects from as far back as HW on my server are still around but have been joined by several new faces at this point.

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WoW put its clamps on the gathering bots all the way back in Wrath (although they looked into player-driven reports as early as BC), and was much better for doing so. WoW's big bot-related sin was being late in stemming the tide of the more sophisticated PVP-related bots, but at least they recognized that it was a problem and were committed to ridding the community of cheaters, developing their own automated measures over time alongside personally looking into reports when such a solution was not available.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The RMT bots can't be controlled with bans. -snip-

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Yes, that's what I said.

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Also, they almost never actually ban buyers and the accounts doing the selling are expendable. The vast majority of the bans you see in their reports are for their expendable farm bots, with a fair amount of bans also being issued to their spam bots, but ultimately, buying gil being so low risk is partly why the trade is able to flourish.

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All of this is incorrect. They actually ban more gil buyers than gil sellers. And the accounts you see in the reports are not bots, they are gil sellers and gil buyers.

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No, having the bots gathering with other players isn't harmful due to the thankfully instanced nature of nodes, but having them selling things at prices that are scarcely profitable for people who are actually playing the game is.

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Bots don't do the selling. That's done by other characters. And in fact, ~60% of gil sold on websites comes from normal players who sell the gil to said websites. As for those who do sell on the market to then sell to websites, if they undercut, that isn't actually bad for the economy at all. Either a savvy marketeer takes advantage of it and buys up the stock (if it's a severe undercut), or the undercut isn't severe enough to cause a significant and permanent drop in price and in fact, it helps to balance the price equilibrium (which is often weighted in the sellers favor).

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Originally Posted by Oxidized

This is not about drama, but about being able to enjoy a game that largely gets casual content right. There is no drama if the bot problem continues and I find myself unable to enjoy the great DoH/DoL systems that the devs created and expanded upon, I simply move on to a game where I believe the playing field to be fairer, even if it is an inferior product. Sadly, I know a few people who have already went this route, and I know that I will probably be joining them in a couple of weeks, only coming back intermittently to check out the major content releases that pique my interest.

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Or maybe, if crafters in the west (I heard it's less of an issue on JP servers) would stop charging absurd premiums, botting would not be so lucrative in the first place.

Since s/o mentioned Aethersands, I checked the prices:
Scuroglow: NQ: 9K / HQ: 9K
Chiraoglow: NQ: 4K /HQ: 4K
Agedeep: NQ: 14K / HQ: 15K
Agewood: NQ: 15K / HQ: 16K
Ageflow NQ: 24K / HQ: 24K

Considering that these items take less than 5 minutes of actual playtime to gather, I'd consider them quite profitable (Scuro and Chirao aren't must much anymore because they are for low level items).

So please... forgive me if I can't be up in arms about us gatherers no longer being able to charge 50-100K for an item that is utterly trivial to obtain.

Doesn't mean SE shouldn't crack down on bots ofc. Bot users are cheaters and cheaters deserve to be banned from any multiplayer environment.
If a few survive (and there will always be survivers) it's not the end of crafting as we know it.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

All of this is incorrect. They actually ban more gil buyers than gil sellers. And the accounts you see in the reports are not bots, they are gil sellers and gil buyers.

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Considering that SE's policy is to never permaban on the first offense outside of major offenses, it seems safe to assume that the tiny temporary ban figure for RMT/illicit activity is the one that applies to actual players while the much larger figure is for the gil farm bots (It's 9045 vs. 19 this week).

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if they undercut, that isn't actually bad for the economy at all. Either a savvy marketeer takes advantage of it and buys up the stock (if it's a severe undercut), or the undercut isn't severe enough to cause a significant and permanent drop in price and in fact, it helps to balance the price equilibrium (which is often weighted in the sellers favor).

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You can't really take advantage of a bot that's packing such an excess of items that it'll relist a new item within minutes of you buying it and undercut you if you try to resell said item.

The bots on my server are able to consistently maintain low prices and drive them even lower if anyone tries intrude on their monopoly. While they do have an undercut "limit" they will not go under, they are not working together, nor do they update their bots at the same times so even if you find the price floor for one of them, one of the others will generally notice sooner then later and start going even lower.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Or maybe, if crafters in the west (I heard it's less of an issue on JP servers) would stop charging absurd premiums, botting would not be so lucrative in the first place.

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How does that explain FATE and crafting bots? Players bot because it's free money or progress while they AFK and there are no consequences for doing it. If sands were cheap they would just bot something else, like they already do.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

(Scuro and Chirao aren't must much anymore because they are for low level items).

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Scuro is used in grade 2 tinctures

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Originally Posted by Granyala

So please... forgive me if I can't be up in arms about us gatherers no longer being able to charge 50-100K for an item that is utterly trivial to obtain.

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If it's so trivial, why not gather them yourself?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

If a few survive (and there will always be survivers) it's not the end of crafting as we know it.

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Except it's only a few that ever get banned, which is what the topic is about.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

If it's so trivial, why not gather them yourself?

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I did.
Only as much as I need for myself though, because the process is mindnumbingly boring.
I'm a scrooge, so I won't pay 15K per sand if I can farm it myself within a few minutes. :D

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Or maybe, if crafters in the west (I heard it's less of an issue on JP servers) would stop charging absurd premiums, botting would not be so lucrative in the first place...

Considering that these items take less than 5 minutes of actual playtime to gather, I'd consider them quite profitable (Scuro and Chirao aren't must much anymore because they are for low level items).

So please... forgive me if I can't be up in arms about us gatherers no longer being able to charge 50-100K for an item that is utterly trivial to obtain.

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Please don't try to justify cheating with crafters overcharging. Even on Balmung with its vicious undercutting,there are bots.

World Visit is also leading to the standardization of prices across the data centre although at the cost of gathering bots now having access to more customers.

For botters, even if they sell a gathered item from a timed node for less than 10 gil per item, it's still pure profit.

Secondly, if it's so trivial to obtain gathered items, why don't more people gather themselves?

The premium that is being paid for legitimate gatherers is for their time while others are doing other content.

In short,cheaters gonna cheat. Not even talking about the gil sellers but I've met players who have admitted they use bots because gathering is too tedious/grindy.

As if grindiness is an excuse to cheat.

SE needs to takes drastic actions like perma banning/deleting every single account that uses botting.

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Originally Posted by UnrealTai

GMs are too busy responding to every little Manchild or womanchild that is sending them reports for someone saying a cuss word now a days.

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Just so you know, GMs actually aren’t allowed to respond to reports of suspected cheating. Only the STF are allowed to answer those reports—and the STF is a team of 4 individuals. GMs don’t have the power to ban even RMT shout spam bots, much less the DoH/DoL ones.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Bots don't do the selling. That's done by other characters. And in fact, ~60% of gil sold on websites comes from normal players who sell the gil to said websites. As for those who do sell on the market to then sell to websites, if they undercut, that isn't actually bad for the economy at all. Either a savvy marketeer takes advantage of it and buys up the stock (if it's a severe undercut), or the undercut isn't severe enough to cause a significant and permanent drop in price and in fact, it helps to balance the price equilibrium (which is often weighted in the sellers favor).

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This is only true in the cases where a player is collecting the resources and not a bot making the resources intended to be limited by playtime by crafters to gather it an infinite resource for anyone to buy at their own accord. While the selling part is often handled by the player themselves due to it being a slightly rougher process (huge understatement) to make an optimal bot for, the collection of resources is actually often bot handled. The only people who short-term benefit out of this are people who do combat related activities exclusively and the botters themselves. Crafters and gatherers suffers heavily from this though as the price is artificially reduced tue to the supply being artificially increased without the demand increasing at all.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

SE needs to takes drastic actions like perma banning/deleting every single account that uses botting.

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I think to them that would be too many lost profits (closed accounts and substantial workforce to fight the windmills).
Can't really explain their lax stance on this any other way, esp on those obnoxious RMT bots (that bother me infinitely more than gathering bots do).

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I did.
Only as much as I need for myself though, because the process is mindnumbingly boring.

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Exactly. So it's work.

You expect other players to level their gathers to 80, acquire gear and go through a mindnumbingly boring process that even you don't think is worth the current prices, then sell the result of that work for next to nothing?

I think it's mindnumblingly boring too and the prices aren't near enough to tempt me to farm them to sell. I'd rather buy them, because to be honest they're dirt cheap compared to the end products I can make from them. If anything, crafters have never charged less. Sand, ore, mats, crystals, materia and gear prices are at rock bottom this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I think it's mindnumblingly boring too and the prices aren't near enough to tempt me to farm them to sell.

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As I said: I consider the prices quite good compared to the rather low amount of effort required to gather them.
I just don't farm to sell because I have no use for gil. I already have a medium house, am an omnicrafter myself and can do furnishings I want or gear my classes.

To someone that crafts, gil is mostly useless. To someone that doesn't craft/gather, crafted items are still too expensive because what you get from the game is rather limited unless you luck out on retainer ventures. (though I guess selling the tome materials could be profitable)

Curious question: I consider 5K for a single ore like Tungsten a pretty hefty price. What price would you guys want beyond that? What would you deem appropriate compensation for the amount of "work" you put into gathering resources? Leveling gatherers can be done while watching netflix, so I don't consider it "work" at all.

Don't crafters in general use a macro to craft? It doesn't seem all that difficult to be a crafter either. I personally like to gather but can't stand crafting. It's why I stopped leveling crafters in Heavensward. But for me to go out and gather something and it sales for 5k a pop is like a dream on my server. Most everything I gather is more like 500-1000 a pop. Just my 2 gil on this topic.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Don't crafters in general use a macro to craft? It doesn't seem all that difficult to be a crafter either. I personally like to gather but can't stand crafting. It's why I stopped leveling crafters in Heavensward. But for me to go out and gather something and it sales for 5k a pop is like a dream on my server. Most everything I gather is more like 500-1000 a pop. Just my 2 gil on this topic.

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High level crafts are typically done with macros. However, DoH bots leave their scripts running for 24+ hours, if not more, and then flood the markets with the products they make. Some even attempt to dominate markets by severely undercutting anyone who tried to “encroach upon” it.

Crafting isn’t hard by any means. But it should still be rewarding for those who put in the time and effort to level their crafters should they seek to craft for profit. DoH bots can make that very difficult.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

High level crafts are typically done with macros. However, DoH bots leave their scripts running for 24+ hours, if not more, and then flood the markets with the products they make. Some even attempt to dominate markets by severely undercutting anyone who tried to “encroach upon” it.

Crafting isn’t hard by any means. But it should still be rewarding for those who put in the time and effort to level their crafters should they seek to craft for profit. DoH bots can make that very difficult.

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I guess as a gatherer I would like a little more reward for spending time out in the field but that's were yellow and white scripts come in at...sort of. That being said I am not going against bots being removed just trying to see why crafters are feeling a certain way about bots since I figured they are the one benefitting from the low priced gathered items. Since I don't craft anymore, I don't pay attention to the market that deals with crafted material. So can't say I have seen this going on or not on my server and just figured it wasn't even a thing. I mean crafters have been still able to easily make their millions so everything seemed alright when I looked at it that way. Either way, it's an insight on how bots can effect crafters too.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Don't crafters in general use a macro to craft? It doesn't seem all that difficult to be a crafter either. I personally like to gather but can't stand crafting. It's why I stopped leveling crafters in Heavensward. But for me to go out and gather something and it sales for 5k a pop is like a dream on my server. Most everything I gather is more like 500-1000 a pop. Just my 2 gil on this topic.

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The fact that there are 1 button macros for HQing crafts from NQ mats,Reuse being OP etc, is another can of worms that SE needs to address;crafting at endgame is too easy.

For me the challenge about crafting is about tracking prices/trends and managing mat supplies.

Especially on volatile items.

If the mats cost you 900k to make an item and the finished product is selling for 1.2 - 2 million,you need to be able study the sales history and determine whether the demand for the item will ensure your item gets bought before someone comes along and undercuts below your cost price. Selling taxes also have to be accounted for.

Usually, once someone undercuts below your cost price,others will follow suit and now you're stuck with the item and looking at a possible loss if the market demand is insufficient to raise prices.

Secondly, it's also about studying market trends and predicting/preparing. A month before SHB dropped, there were certain mats which were selling for 20k and below. Now, some of those mats are selling for 100 - 200k across the data centre.

On the other hand, some of the mats I stocked up, the prices are falling rapidly, so I need to clear my stock on those or hope the demand for them remains the same or goes up.

There are plenty of broke overmelded crafters who don't understand how the market works or things like opportunity costs. For me, the challenge has never been in the actual crafting.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I guess as a gatherer I would like a little more reward for spending time out in the field but that's were yellow and white scripts come in at...sort of. That being said I am not going against bots being removed just trying to see why crafters are feeling a certain way about bots since I figured they are the one benefitting from the low priced gathered items. Since I don't craft anymore, I don't pay attention to the market that deals with crafted material. So can't say I have seen this going on or not on my server and just figured it wasn't even a thing. I mean crafters have been still able to easily make their millions so everything seemed alright when I looked at it that way. Either way, it's an insight on how bots can effect crafters too.

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They only benefit if they directly buy the materials from the bots selling them on the market board. Personally, I prefer to gather my own materials since I have all gatherers maxed out anyways.

And yeah, the crafters can make millions—provided that their markets aren’t overrun by the bots that were causing the problems. The bots on my server dominated the raid food and potion markets throughout Stormblood, so legitimate crafters had to fight them to sell their foods/potions.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

High level crafts are typically done with macros. However, DoH bots leave their scripts running for 24+ hours, if not more, and then flood the markets with the products they make. Some even attempt to dominate markets by severely undercutting anyone who tried to “encroach upon” it.

Crafting isn’t hard by any means. But it should still be rewarding for those who put in the time and effort to level their crafters should they seek to craft for profit. DoH bots can make that very difficult.

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At least on Balmung it has to have some crafting bots for random low stuff that I notice. No one in their right mind makes almost 1500 of random mat sells in stacks of 99 when the only recipes that use it need one or two. They are also not really linked to any leve. The only way I can understand it is if they botted it. They weren't buying up and controlling a market either they had a signature on all the stacks.


What I don't understand is here and on reddit I have seen comments that support botting in a way. If the items get badly botted why wouldn't those players just support a vendor instead. Or on the tricky slope increase the amount of types and items retainers can get and adjust the time it takes.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

What I don't understand is here and on reddit I have seen comments that support botting in a way. If the items get badly botted why wouldn't those players just support a vendor instead. Or on the tricky slope increase the amount of types and items retainers can get and adjust the time it takes.

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People who support the existence of DoH/L bots under the oft faulty notion that the items players sell are overpriced are indeed basically just arguing against the existence of a crafting/gathering system in general.

They often don't understand the concept of a time/labor cost. People want to charge for the time they spend crafting because that time could be being used for other activities. Botters don't care about that, which is why they'll so readily drop prices as they're not actually spending any time on what they do.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

People who support the existence of DoH/L bots under the oft faulty notion that the items players sell are overpriced are indeed basically just arguing against the existence of a crafting/gathering system in general.
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This 100%. If you believe something to be overpriced, then simply put in the work to do it yourself, then you will not be paying for it; if enough other people agree that it is too expensive, they will follow suit.

Those who are claim that "bots are good because they lower prices" are missing the point entirely; it is not about fair market economics, but about cheating in general, how it is allowed to happen, and how it undermines a HUGE part of the casual FF14 community through the inaction of enforcement.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

People who support the existence of DoH/L bots under the oft faulty notion that the items players sell are overpriced are indeed basically just arguing against the existence of a crafting/gathering system in general.

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I don't support the existence of bots directly, since I still wish for them cheaters to get banned, but I am also not blind. I see that I am essentially profiting from their behavior because, similar to the Chinese IRL they make a lot of stuff way more affordable, which means most players have to grind less.

You wanted a realistic crafting economy? Well here you have it. Including some players breaking the rules (workforce safety, patent rights etc) to offer mass produced goods on the cheap.

In order to give some context to why I don't feel botters are a particular problem on my server:
https://i.imgur.com/UB8NC9j.jpg
Date: 17.08.2019 @11:12 CET

Maybe it's (yet again) a region specific issue?

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Originally Posted by Oxidized

If you believe something to be overpriced, then simply put in the work to do it yourself, then you will not be paying for it

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F A L S E

You will be paying the EXACT SAME AMOUNT because you could have sold the product.
You merely pay with a different currency: time vs Gil.

You statement is the reason why many players who do NOT bot ruin the profit margins of many crafters. They think "if I farmed it myself, the item is free!" and continue to not add it's actual value into the sale price.

Apparently, they've now taken to using trust bots to farm the level 80 MSQ dungeon for goetia tomestones.

Granted, it's still extremely inefficient as it's only 80 tomestones per 30+ minutes but it's better then any of their previous methods they resorted to like PvP or PotD/HoH due to lack of queues and player interaction.

I probably make as much goetia in a few hours as they do over the course of multiple nights just by hunting A/S rank hunts each day, but they're not actually needing to put any effort into it, so...

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Apparently, they've now taken to using trust bots to farm the level 80 MSQ dungeon for goetia tomestones.

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Dear Lord, I feel pity for our poor scions.

Some of you people really makes me wish that someone comes up with a way to make a bot that is able to clear savage and sells savage clears at 500k and snatching world firsts to devalue your "precious time" in the same manner you seen to embrace bots to do for people who sink their time into DoL/DoH content so you will know first hand the pleasure that is seeing the content you enjoy losing all value.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

seeing the content you enjoy losing all value.

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Sorry to burst your bubble here but I don't raid for the epeen or any artificial competition. I get enough of that crap IRL.
I raid because I enjoy doing challenges with my friends. As such, people that clear the content super fast, sell clear runs or even bot the raids would not influence me or my group in the slightest.

People botting might end up a boon to the general playerbase, if them bots were good enough to do savage, crappy dungeon runs and people raging over no DPS healers / low DPS players would be a thing of the past. *chuckles*

Funsies aside: I still think SE should crack down way harder than they do now. Botting should never be tolerated be it in PvP, raiding (I've actually seen bots in LFR in WoW) or gathering.
I merely don't share the "sky is falling!!11" panic of some of the people here, because from my perspective, crafters, that actually craft for profit and not just for personal use like I do, still make Gil hand over fist compared to folks that do not craft.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I merely don't share the "sky is falling!!11" panic of some of the people here, because from my perspective, crafters, that actually craft for profit and not just for personal use like I do, still make Gil hand over fist compared to folks that do not craft.

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Really now? You think high-end DoH/DoL's are making more Gil than high-end DoW/DoM players? I think you might mix up crafters/gatherers with MB flippers, which you don't have to be DoH/DoL to do by any means.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Really now? You think high-end DoH/DoL's are making more Gil than high-end DoW/DoM players? I think you might mix up crafters/gatherers with MB flippers, which you don't have to be DoH/DoL to do by any means.

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Not talking about high end DOW/DOM. Obviously people being able to sell savage clears make a lot of coin. I was more referring to the average player that doesn't have the luxuries. An average crafter still makes a hell of a lot more Gil than the average non crafter. Bots or no bots.

AH-Flippers are their own species entirely and best left out of this discussion. :D

Tbh I don't really care about the gathering bots. Those leveling bots on the other hand, that induce queue time congestion (server as well duty based), now THOSE are the real problem. Create an alt on Spriggan or Twintania, see for yourself.