What about creating an ACTUAL Dark Knight?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Attacks that cost HP or that do more damage at lower HP may be "high risk, high reward," but the risk and the resource expenditure is shifted from the player to their healer. In a single player game where you control all of your party members, this is fine, because you have control of both sides of this. In an MMO setting, though, it doesn't work as a job theme. You'd end up deliberately throwing yourself into harm's way for more dps while your healer picks up after you.

The one area that you can work on is the lifesteal angle, as per Final Fantasy Tactics.

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I agree with this, but just to clarify, thats not quite what they meant.
But I do agree this style isnt the best thing to do in an MMO, and not just for the reasons you mentioned.
(Thinks on it, actually, I think I just came up with a work around, to make that work. *goes to write that down for personal use*)

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Originally Posted by Nephyleem

You know, these "high-risk high-reward" tanky jobs that sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves or deliver strong blows?
That literally steals vitality from their foes to survive?
Makes shield out of their foes' blood?
That do ACTUAL DARK STUFF.

Does is speaks to anybody?
Or is that just me? '^'

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First I have to say that I have never DRK in FF14, so I am basing my thoughts on what I think it should do. To me it seems that DRK would have been better served as a DPS class that focused on sacrificing life to deal exponential dmg. So that DRK did not have to rely on a healer to function properly, I would think that DRK's rotation would build up to losing health overtime, not as a DoT, but as each skill sacrifices a little bit more HP until the final skill in rotation would actually sap a great deal of HP from the target(s). This is where I think the strategy would come into play: making sure the target(s) have enough HP so that the DRK gets something back. And I mean that if you used this rotation against a dying mob or group of mobs, then their would not be sufficient HP to sap and DRK would not get all the HP they spent back. Other risk would be giving yourself enough time to complete the rotation before getting hit and killed due to having low HP. I may even go so far as suggest that once initiated, the DRK rotation would not allow for the DRK to be healed by any means other than completing the rotation, or canceling the rotation (this way a healer would not be able to play safety net, and the DRK rotation would remain high-risk/high-reward).

I could see DRK being a more viable tank be allowing similar tactics to what I described, except that the gain of the DRK, as opposed to being dmg used by the DRK against mobs, would instead be a buff transferred to the rest of the party (or maybe a target DPS role). I could see DRK becoming a tank that utilizes debuffs as opposed to dealing high amounts of dmg. I think causing debuffs on the enemy (i.e. blind, MP/HP DoT, stun, etc.) would still fit into the tank role of gaining enmity, while keeping away from becoming the "ultimate tank/DPS hybrid" role.


IMO, the Dark Knight as a solo-type role has always been about trading HP for DMG and then having some ways of stealing that HP back again. However as a multi-player type role, the Dark Knight seems better suited to being a debuffer class. Just my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

First I have to say that I have never DRK in FF14, so I am basing my thoughts on what I think it should do. To me it seems that DRK would have been better served as a DPS class that focused on sacrificing life to deal exponential dmg. So that DRK did not have to rely on a healer to function properly

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And then get hit by an AOE and die, making the healer ress you. Next!

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Originally Posted by Nephyleem

You know, these "high-risk high-reward" tanky jobs that sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves or deliver strong blows?
That literally steals vitality from their foes to survive?
Makes shield out of their foes' blood?
That do ACTUAL DARK STUFF.

Does is speaks to anybody?
Or is that just me? '^'

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That version of Dark Knight has never existed. The job was literally a melee heavy hitter that could use an ability called "Darkness" to use its own HP to hit all enemies.

A minus strike like a reverse spirits within, would be cool, if there was a combo between the original Blood for blood(now called lance charge) and bloodbath+convalesence, where lowered defense was offset by higher hp gains from healing(and life taps) i dont really see that making them "awfuller" at tanking in some regards. Perhaps the idea of using hp is off limits as a tank, but they could do more lifetapping/and even lower defense for a short time for more damage. But im pretty sure the route they want tanks to be at, less of the self heals/lifetaps, and more reliance on healers. I dont really like that route but im sure lots of people prefer it, probably healers

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

IMO, the Dark Knight as a solo-type role has always been about trading HP for DMG and then having some ways of stealing that HP back again. However as a multi-player type role, the Dark Knight seems better suited to being a debuffer class. Just my thoughts.

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If they were hellbent on this magic tank idea, DRK should have been given a dot spell that drains hp/tick(tarpit for pve?), Theres so many things they could have thematically given them, that would def draw a distinct line between the tanks, this current iteration though, is the byproduct of what once was a really unique tank, that offered so much what the others didnt, despite it being slightly clunky and out of place, then they just took everything off their kit and divvied it around to the other tanks. Since we got nothing left, they could now just give it its own flavor. And get rid of the term "delirium" that skill is cursed. I love berserk, but come on-that was the hw inspiration, this thing we got now resembles nothing of that job.

The problem with a DRK sacrificing its HP is the risk of dying when big hits come.
So what if, instead of having mitigation oGCD, he had HP refill ones ?

He could have skills like the current Thrill Of Battle or TBN, that could compensate for having lower HP most of the time, or even a skill to swap HP with someone that could also be used to give a good portion of HP back to the MT when you're the OT, or a Drain line of spells. And, instead of having GCD that would heal you (Like SoulEater, Clemency, Storm's Path, etc...), he would have GCD that would mitigate damage, so roughly the reverse concept of how tanks play right now.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

And then get hit by an AOE and die, making the healer ress you. Next!

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And that's where the high-risk/high-reward part comes into play. If you are good at the job and aware of the mechanics at play in the moment, you survive the AOE by getting out of the way. People are already making poor decisions and getting killed by AOE and needing healer to ress them, so...

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

If they were hellbent on this magic tank idea, DRK should have been given a dot spell that drains hp/tick(tarpit for pve?), Theres so many things they could have thematically given them, that would def draw a distinct line between the tanks, this current iteration though, is the byproduct of what once was a really unique tank, that offered so much what the others didnt, despite it being slightly clunky and out of place, then they just took everything off their kit and divvied it around to the other tanks. Since we got nothing left, they could now just give it its own flavor. And get rid of the term "delirium" that skill is cursed. I love berserk, but come on-that was the hw inspiration, this thing we got now resembles nothing of that job.

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Unfortunately, I never got to see the older versions of DRK in action. I first got this game when HW came out, but only played for a month. I hear a lot of people saying the job was more unique earlier on. Dark Knight has always been a class/role that's held my fascination in every game I play in which it makes an appearance. I am so close to having the job unlocked now. I really don't know what to expect with it at this point though. Some people are saying that 5.1 may bring changes to DRK, I guess we'll see.

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

And that's where the high-risk/high-reward part comes into play. If you are good at the job and aware of the mechanics at play in the moment, you survive the AOE by getting out of the way. People are already making poor decisions and getting killed by AOE and needing healer to ress them, so...

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Would this kind of DRK have a self sustain? If not then it's just going to bother the healer since the tank is always the primary focus, which is why it could potentially work.

I'd like if Living dead instead set your HP to 1, and gave you a shield of blood like the size of your HP bar that would eat hits instead of your HP, but it takes up actual space in your HP bar so you're unable to be healed until you take damage again.

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Originally Posted by SakiKojiro

I'd like if Living dead instead set your HP to 1, and gave you a shield of blood like the size of your HP bar that would eat hits instead of your HP, but it takes up actual space in your HP bar so you're unable to be healed until you take damage again.

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I'm not sure I follow entirely, but it sounds interesting..does the rehealing apply to the first hit chipped off of the shielding, or does that mean you cant be healed until your health hits 1 again?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem with a DRK sacrificing its HP is the risk of dying when big hits come.
So what if, instead of having mitigation oGCD, he had HP refill ones ?

He could have skills like the current Thrill Of Battle or TBN, that could compensate for having lower HP most of the time, or even a skill to swap HP with someone that could also be used to give a good portion of HP back to the MT when you're the OT, or a Drain line of spells. And, instead of having GCD that would heal you (Like SoulEater, Clemency, Storm's Path, etc...), he would have GCD that would mitigate damage, so roughly the reverse concept of how tanks play right now.

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I agree with you but I'm a little on the fence. This was literally 2.0 WAR and as cool as it was, it was a nightmare to heal imo. But again, during 2.0 levelling WAR I didnt believe DRK was ever going to be a job, because 2.0 WAR was pretty much how I thought DRK would be like as a ff14 job. I was def wrong come HW(but by then we were having discussions of new tanks they might add), but WAR did get that work in 2.1 which took a lot of those things away from it. TBF, the identity problem between the two might actually be stemmed from early dev hindsight, but idk, Your idea makes sense, but then theres WAR original identity. A hard sell for sure. I get why they made the 2 so similar this time around, but its totally just not in good taste to me.

Drain line of spells would be great though. Its too bad they took debuffing away from tanks, they couldve made cc or more utility-like debuffs work, but thats not how the meta is sadly.

Mates, mates! Chill. Structurize what you don't like about the way DRK plays now and make the proposals about every point in the structure, so this tread won't fall in the ANOTHER living dead only conversation, somewhat like this:
- We can't rewrite the lore, so it stays the same: DRK must draw his power from the darkness/abyss type of magick
- What resource he need to utilize his kit that will come to play as the PRICE of said drak/abysall powers?
- What he must do to replenish said resources?
- What the main theme of his skills/spells should be to feel apropriate with resource usage/management?
- How those skills/spells will come in play as TANK oriented?

For example I can bring you this answers:
- Resource: as BLM utilizes a lot of mana in his black magick so must do DRK. I think it will be apropriate to mana be the main resource and with each cast/usage of spel/skilll the next SAME one will need to cost more, just as BLM's "Fire".
- Resource replenish: I think to create a PRICE for usage of the black/dark/abysall powers would be HP. For example - he uses all of his mana for the rotation or some costly skill/spell, to replenish it he will neeed to sarcrifice like... 20-30% of his MAX HP. Ofcourse we will need to have a skill in the rotation, that will give us the meanings to replenish said HP via combat. Thus we will need to manage our DPS output to stay alive and dealing damage, balancing the need for mana and HP.
- The main theme of the skills will not change to much:the power that DRAINS your mana dry if you will not find the way to sip it's power from the others (enemies, but not always). So the DRK will apear more like vampire knight or some. For example we can make him to drain HP from the foe (like now, but add a bit more vapiric touch to the skill rotation) or drain MP from his allyes (yo, bard, I need your mana, boots and bike).
- About tank orientation of the kit: he will, obiously, need the powers to protect himself and the allies in the battle, but this is quite easy to do even with our present enmity generation and shields. Like any other tank he will need the invulnerability, so we come to the Living Dead problem. I think if Living Dead will just allow us to not fall behind 1HP it's OK, but to make it work MORE LIKE the actual DRK (and to follow his new theme) we can make that he will NOT recieve any healing from ANY source, but his own skillsas drain. Make him actualy go full DEAD BERZERK, give him "Haste" and/or "Immunity to CC" during this "Undead rage" so he can DRAIN LIFE WITH EVERY SKILL/SPELL HE HAVE and, if in the end of the LD time he manages to cure some amount of HP he will be alive and recieve the HP of the amount he drained. The SE can even give us some gauge that will show us how much we have drained. This will actualy make DRK look more sinister and DARK (lol) and make his DPS windows a lot more predictable (have the mana - use it till it dry out and then some and if someone will try to hit you hard (LD windows) you will become only stronger and bleed them out).

I wish DRK would have an extra deffensive cooldown to play with, because that what we have now is simply underwhelming.

Dark mind is unnecessary ability, it serves little to no purpose since TBN is taking its place in any tank buster there is.
I would change it to the ability which heals us off for 20% of received damage (shield and hp).
It will make a great synergy with the TBN.

Dark mind is usually pretty good during raids cobsidering usually raid tank busters are magic damage. They got bad luck this tier.

But TBN alone puts Drk in a pretty great place tbh

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

This was literally 2.0 WAR and as cool as it was, it was a nightmare to heal imo.

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In 2.0, WAR had literally one "mitigation" skill with Thrill Of Battle. The increase in healing received wasn't even tied to Defiance but to rage, which forced them to not use Inner Beast. PLD would have been a nightmare to heal too if it only had rampart and Shield Oath didn't reduced damage by itself.

Found my old explanation of the "road of DRK's identity":

I think in order to make DRK "feel like a DRK", we have to explore the identity of DRK.

It was first playable in FF3, but most of the NA audience never played 3. So really, our first exposure was FF4, in the form of Cecil. Cecil as a Dark Knight could use the ability "Darkness" which cost HP, but did damage to all enemies. He had high HP and Def and could use swords and shields and heavy armor.

It didn't appear again until FFX-2 as a dressphere. There, it also had Darkness (aoe) and Charon (single target version of Darkness), and Arcana. It also had proof against most if not all status ailments. It still had high HP and Def.

It next appeared in FFXI as a DPS class. It lost a lot of it's identity here, as it was basically turned into a hybrid caster/melee. Could use black magic and stat-absorb spells, had access to early Stun and could gain TP really fast. Also lots of Draining abilities.

It appeared in FF: Tactics PSP version (war of the lions), and there it focused on HP/MP drain.



So the major themes of DRK have been:

-High HP

-High Def

-Darkness (sacrifice HP for damage or later HP/MP drain)

-Drain/Absorb

-Ailment immunity and or infliction/absorb



I think FF14's DRK actually fits those themes fairly well. We don't have the HP sacrifice part, but they changed it to MP sacrifice (the mp management mechanics). They kept the high HP and Def themes, as well as the Drain/Absorb aspects.

I agree with the other poster that the biggest thing is just getting rid of the Dark Arts spam. Not only is it annoying, but it trivializes the "lore" of the ability as well to have to spam it so much.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Found my old explanation of the "road of DRK's identity":

I think in order to make DRK "feel like a DRK", we have to explore the identity of DRK.

It was first playable in FF3, but most of the NA audience never played 3. So really, our first exposure was FF4, in the form of Cecil. Cecil as a Dark Knight could use the ability "Darkness" which cost HP, but did damage to all enemies. He had high HP and Def and could use swords and shields and heavy armor.

It didn't appear again until FFX-2 as a dressphere. There, it also had Darkness (aoe) and Charon (single target version of Darkness), and Arcana. It also had proof against most if not all status ailments. It still had high HP and Def.

It next appeared in FFXI as a DPS class. It lost a lot of it's identity here, as it was basically turned into a hybrid caster/melee. Could use black magic and stat-absorb spells, had access to early Stun and could gain TP really fast. Also lots of Draining abilities.

It appeared in FF: Tactics PSP version (war of the lions), and there it focused on HP/MP drain.

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You have a few things out of order here.

Dark Knight's 3rd appearance was in FFT(PS) (1997) as Gafgarion's exclusive job with 2 special attacks that dealt Dark element damage and recovered either HP or MP.

XI (2002) and the Advanced Job Dark Knight was released before X-2 (2003) and its Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

but they changed it to MP sacrifice (the mp management mechanics).

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MP is a ressource meant to be spent, you don't "sacrifice" it. And the MP management has been reduced to the bare minimum since we only have 3 skills to spend them, with basically the same end result.

Also in FFIV, if you look at Cecil's stats as a Dark Knight, he's actually pretty low in HP and stamina. It just so happens that several of your teammates are mages so they are weaker than you. Just compare his stats to Kain's or Yang's.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

You have a few things out of order here.

Dark Knight's 3rd appearance was in FFT(PS) (1997) as Gafgarion's exclusive job with 2 special attacks that dealt Dark element damage and recovered either HP or MP.

XI (2002) and the Advanced Job Dark Knight was released before X-2 (2003) and its Dark Knight.

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There was also the the FF3 remake for Nintendo 3DS, where IIRC Dark Knight was only(?) a mid-tier job in the grand scale of things and had also the all-enemy hp-draining skill. It was recommended to use them with Bards for synergy during the parts the combo was valid.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

There was also the the FF3 remake for Nintendo 3DS, where IIRC Dark Knight was only(?) a mid-tier job in the grand scale of things and had also the all-enemy hp-draining skill. It was recommended to use them with Bards for synergy during the parts the combo was valid.

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In FF III, the only uniqueness of DRK was to be able to use Katanas...that prevent monsters from multiplying.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Also in FFIV, if you look at Cecil's stats as a Dark Knight, he's actually pretty low in HP and stamina. It just so happens that several of your teammates are mages so they are weaker than you. Just compare his stats to Kain's or Yang's.

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Dark Knight Cecil's Stats are actually superior to Kain's for the level range that they appear together (and only really start exceeding DK Cecil's at the levels where you should have Paladin Cecil). Yang's stats are inflated to make up for Yang's inferior equipment.

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Originally Posted by Nephyleem

sacrifices their own HP to protect themselves

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Originally Posted by ExLegen

That makes no sense whatsoever in a tanking scenario. =p

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Sacrifice HP. Gain defense. Now the HoT placed on you is no longer overhealing and the following tankbuster won't one-shot you, so long as you're topped off before it.

How does that "make no sense whatsoever" for a tank action? You're literally smoothing out damage intake, exploiting lulls in damage to prevent spikes.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Dark Knight Cecil's Stats are actually superior to Kain's for the level range that they appear together (and only really start exceeding DK Cecil's at the levels where you should have Paladin Cecil).

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It's not that uncommon to reach lvl20 before changing to Paladin. At that point, a lvl 20 Kain would trump you in HP. In fact, a level 1 Paladin Cecil has around 50% more HP than a level 20 Dark Cecil. How can someone say that Dark Knight was a "high HP, high def" job in that game ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not that uncommon to reach lvl20 before changing to Paladin. At that point, a lvl 20 Kain would trump you in HP. In fact, a level 1 Paladin Cecil has around 50% more HP than a level 20 Dark Cecil. How can someone say that Dark Knight was a "high HP, high def" job in that game ?

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Because for the first half of the game, you're paired with almost exclusively Wizards of some variety.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In 2.0, WAR had literally one "mitigation" skill with Thrill Of Battle. The increase in healing received wasn't even tied to Defiance but to rage, which forced them to not use Inner Beast. PLD would have been a nightmare to heal too if it only had rampart and Shield Oath didn't reduced damage by itself.

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Youre absolutely right, but pre fix the hp fluctuated so chaotically at times, it was like watching a good HW or SB DRK's mp gauge during a big pull, and was crazy. At times you didnt know when to heal, or not(youd def heal because you dint want them to die at all) but then this idea, paired along with yours:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sacrifice HP. Gain defense. Now the HoT placed on you is no longer overhealing and the following tankbuster won't one-shot you, so long as you're topped off before it.

How does that "make no sense whatsoever" for a tank action? You're literally smoothing out damage intake, exploiting lulls in damage to prevent spikes.

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Paired with a now streamlined defensive kit, would definately work. The question now would be all about tuning it - pretty possible I think.

Oh man Cecil Harvey, FF4... I could go on and on about that one. For instance how its stats were deliberately halted around level 50 or so, max hp around 5k at 99, etc. The fact that every character was put in as a drkcecil if you recruited them before their time (dummy/placeholder char/ stats too). Even more hillarious is that PLD cecil and DRK cecil seem to be most likely 2 different characters entirely(you cannot beat zeromus without having PLD cecil in your party. Its a wipe, and game over during the crystal of light part) Ah man, to be fair to add to this, i wouldnt rely too much about the drk cecil stats, they very deliberatedly made it worse on purpose. Most definately the 1 will stat the entirity of its levelling, which was magic defense, i think? (magic tank my :kupo:)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Because for the first half of the game, you're paired with almost exclusively Wizards of some variety.

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It's not because they're squishier than you that you are an actual tank. Before XIV, there was no DRK iteration than can be close to a tank. The most important part is that it never had any skill that could be related to tanking.

Son to go back to the "themes" of Dark Knigh before XIV, it was basically :

• Sacrifice HP for damage
• Absorb HP/MP/Stats
• Inflict status

And, like I said, you can probably make a tank out of this, with abilities costing HP to do damage, and a drain line of spells. Technically, you could use the absorb line as a justification for mitigation (Like putting Vulnerability while reducing damage received, absorbing defense, etc...)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Youre absolutely right, but pre fix the hp fluctuated so chaotically at times

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What seems wasted to me is that because they only half-baked the "tank with high HP" concept, they completely thrown it away in 2.1. After all, since PLD had Rampart and Sentinel, WAR could have multiple "tier" of ToB, Inner Beast could have stayed at 300% damage converted into healing, but with any overheal increasing your max HP for a few seconds, etc...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How can someone say that Dark Knight was a "high HP, high def" job in that game ?

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FFIV is character driven and not class driven.

FF3: Heavy Armor, AoE specialist, ignores defense

FF4: Used as a plot point to transition into a PLD, shares AoE from FF3. Which uses HP and has a CD of 2 turns.

FF8: Darkside command from Guardian Forces which expend HP to deal damage.

FFX-2: Status Immunity, HP sacrificing attacks

FFXI : Heavy Armor, skills that focus on absorb/drain, debuffs
Tactics:Heavy Armor, HP and MP absorb, HP sacrificing attacks

FF4HoL: Darkside action to sacrifice HP for damage

BDFF/BDFF2: Heavy Armor primarily Helmets, HP sacrificing attacks, stat increases on receiving damage, blow up when you are KO'd dealing AoE damage on death, ability to absorb all magic damage and convert it into MP and take no damage, cast doom on self to boost all stats, Minus Strike which lands attacks they do damage based on missing HP. Hitting an enemy say at 10/500 HP will make it land for 490 damage.

FF Dimensions: HP sacrificing attacks, Draw Attacks which is a provoke to focus on the DRK, Last Resort is another ability that inflicts doom on self to buff stats, Final Thrust is an attack based on hit point total and low success rate at high HP, HP absorb.

A general breakdown of DRK over the series shows prominent use of heavy armor and HP sacrificing attacks with the occasional status immunity and interesting anti magic tank skills.

Mostly prominent in the BDFF subseries.

It's all on the wikia for you to gloss over.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And, like I said, you can probably make a tank out of this, with abilities costing HP to do damage, and a drain line of spells. Technically, you could use the absorb line as a justification for mitigation (Like putting Vulnerability while reducing damage received, absorbing defense, etc...)

What seems wasted to me is that because they only half-baked the "tank with high HP" concept, they completely thrown it away in 2.1. After all, since PLD had Rampart and Sentinel, WAR could have multiple "tier" of ToB, Inner Beast could have stayed at 300% damage converted into healing, but with any overheal increasing your max HP for a few seconds, etc...

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Yeah, it's really interesting that you bring this up, which is a really good perspective on how they couldve done things differently, at least starting in HW, but even more so the direction leading outward till now. I think I'm gonna need to Edit this in a bit, you got me thinking. In that given hypothetical, like you said they changed up WAR identity quite a bit, but left that identity to where it might have been better suited for a DRK later down the road. I often wonder, how drastically job identity got lessened due to the cross role line up of additional skills over the latter(HW and before SB), Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not because they're squishier than you that you are an actual tank. Before XIV, there was no DRK iteration than can be close to a tank. The most important part is that it never had any skill that could be related to tanking.

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FF4 introduced a system where you HAD to have at LEAST 2 people take more melee dmg, and at least 2 people dealing less melee dmg, but resisting it.
Almost every character had an option for being put in the back row (with the exception of PLD Cecil)
But unlike me as a child, who put everyone in the back row, and just turtled every fight, i was forced to put people in the front row.
everyone who had means to help survive the melee attacks of the front row, also had melee options that actually did decent dmg.

In short, if it was able to go to the front row, it was a tank.
but not everything that could go to the back row was a tank.

FF5+ changed this, and the jobs that had back row options sometimes lost those options starting from this game. (While also losing some of their survival)

back on topic:
2.0 made the mistake of keeping rampart/sentinel/shield oath as -X% of an enemies dmg, rather than being like foresight, raising your own def by a %.
this caused the issue we still suffer from today, that causes tanks to be too limited in their unique mitigation options.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

FF4 introduced a system where you HAD to have at LEAST 2 people take more melee dmg, and at least 2 people dealing less melee dmg, but resisting it.
Almost every character had an option for being put in the back row (with the exception of PLD Cecil)
But unlike me as a child, who put everyone in the back row, and just turtled every fight, i was forced to put people in the front row.
everyone who had means to help survive the melee attacks of the front row, also had melee options that actually did decent dmg.

In short, if it was able to go to the front row, it was a tank.
but not everything that could go to the back row was a tank.

FF5+ changed this, and the jobs that had back row options sometimes lost those options starting from this game. (While also losing some of their survival)

back on topic:
2.0 made the mistake of keeping rampart/sentinel/shield oath as -X% of an enemies dmg, rather than being like foresight, raising your own def by a %.
this caused the issue we still suffer from today, that causes tanks to be too limited in their unique mitigation options.

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All of this is really an issue of how awfully sterile the game is as a whole.

Everything is a set specific percent that doesn't scale. Defensive cooldowns should have actually scaled on a stat, or multiple stats, instead of just "Flat buff or percentage of some type". WAR used to have a few things kind of like this, and it was my favorite job.

Hell now even MP is a flat amount across the board. I've been criticizing SE for years on their completely sterile padded room of a game, well now those hens are finally coming home to roost for everyone else. They didn't know how to balance things in the extremely non-lenient system they built for themselves, so to balance they just homogenized even further.

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Originally Posted by SakiKojiro

All of this is really an issue of how awfully sterile the game is as a whole.

Everything is a set specific percent that doesn't scale. Defensive cooldowns should have actually scaled on a stat, or multiple stats, instead of just "Flat buff or percentage of some type". WAR used to have a few things kind of like this, and it was my favorite job.

Hell now even MP is a flat amount across the board. I've been criticizing SE for years on their completely sterile padded room of a game, well now those hens are finally coming home to roost for everyone else. They didn't know how to balance things in the extremely non-lenient system they built for themselves, so to balance they just homogenized even further.

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Yeah, youre right, at one time Dex even helped up parry/block rate, str helped block str/parry%, things like this, back in 2.0. Heck its so bad now, you cant even meld main stats anymore. See? Man.....
I keep saying I just really dont like the direction they keep heading with it(middle of HW), well you put it bluntly at least, as to why. I'm still interested in talking about making a good identity for DRK, but this probably confirms its futility. Current DRK is probably the future of all the tanks before too long.

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Originally Posted by SakiKojiro

All of this is really an issue of how awfully sterile the game is as a whole.

Everything is a set specific percent that doesn't scale. Defensive cooldowns should have actually scaled on a stat, or multiple stats, instead of just "Flat buff or percentage of some type". WAR used to have a few things kind of like this, and it was my favorite job.

Hell now even MP is a flat amount across the board. I've been criticizing SE for years on their completely sterile padded room of a game, well now those hens are finally coming home to roost for everyone else. They didn't know how to balance things in the extremely non-lenient system they built for themselves, so to balance they just homogenized even further.

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This, for the most part. In most MMOs, you see a difference in mitigation based on your gear-proximity to the content you're trying; when you start a new raid tier with the old BiS set, you mitigate less (percentage-wise) than you did in the last tier because things now hit harder, while progressing through that tier gets you back to where you were and then further, such that you have slight improvement over the course of the expansion while also making the difference between active and passive mitigation (such as through guaranteed blocks) more pronounced. I kind of miss that when playing XIV.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

In short, if it was able to go to the front row, it was a tank.

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No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

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End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

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That was literally the only option until the remakes allowed you to swap characters at endgame. Even fully geared, Rosa and Rydia would survive between three and four hits from strong trash mobs if left in the front row. Granted, Edge's defense was garbage as well, but his melee attack at least gave you an excuse to leave him up front.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That was literally the only option until the remakes allowed you to swap characters at endgame. Even fully geared, Rosa and Rydia would survive between three and four hits from strong trash mobs if left in the front row. Granted, Edge's defense was garbage as well, but his melee attack at least gave you an excuse to leave him up front.

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there was the adamantium armor, but legit farming that was not something anyone sane probably should try to do, not for full party. But yeah, I mean even in the back row those two could get 2 shot from regular mobs on the way to zeromus lol

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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That's because when you climb Mount Ordeals at around level 15-20 as a Dark Knight, but you're expected to come back down as a level 1 Paladin, and they don't want you to get oneshot by monsters on the way down. Because you gain the first 10 levels or so nearly instantly, you actually have very little stat growth that happens over those levels. There's actually very little difference between a level 1 Paladin and a level 10 one. It's more for storytelling effect.

Either way, no two Final Fantasy games are alike. Shiva is a motorcycle. Ragnarok is a spaceship. The concept of "tanking" doesn't really exist in other games outside of FFXI, so what job fits what role is largely up to your imagination. Blue Mage and Dragoon could have been tanks. Paladin and Dancer could have been healers. Rather than lamenting what could have been, maybe it's worth focusing on this iteration of the game?

If anything, FFXIV has the most interesting spin on the PLD/DRK duality. In FFIV, Cecil became a Dark Knight in pledging service to Baron and its institutional corruption, but found freedom in becoming a Paladin. In FFXIV, Paladins are historically trained as bodyguards who swear oaths in service of the Sultanate. Dark Knights, on the other hand, swear allegiance to no master. Their only duty is to follow their hearts, to protect the weak against injustice, and to punish evil as they see fit. As a classically trained Paladin who switches to becoming a Dark Knight in the Brume of Ishgard, you're essentially following the same path to freedom.

"We dark knights don't care one whit for prestige or pedigree. We are free to follow our hearts─to defend the weak and punish the guilty as we see fit.
The law of the land? The authority of a name? These are tools cowards use to escape harm. We have no need of shields figurative or literal."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, because being in the back row also reduced your melee damage. So the rule was "if you're a melee job, you're in the front."

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I already said that.
Also, you had ranged attack options as the others.
Yang had Kick, not hindered by back row, edge had throw/ninjutsu, kain had jump, DRK cecil had darkness.
but your quote also doesnt counter either of us.
ranged only characters couldnt go to the front, not because the game forbid it, but because there was no benefit to it. they didnt do melee dmg, and they had no method to lower physical melee dmg.
(Also i put edge in the back row usually for bosses (using throw), and kain in the back row for xeromous, so when he used big bang, everyone would die, except kain, and he'd rez everyone back up.)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

End game was usually cecil, kain, edge in front for me and rosa, rydia in back, idk how other people did it, that was just the formation that made the most sense to me.

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Yes, does that make Dragoons and Ninjas tanks, yet ?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The concept of "tanking" doesn't really exist in other games outside of FFXI, so what job fits what role is largely up to your imagination.

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Provoke and Cover are skills designed for you to take hits instead of you party member, that's the concept of tanking outside of MMO, and it existed since FF III.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In FFXIV, Paladins are historically trained as bodyguards who swear oaths in service of the Sultanate. Dark Knights, on the other hand, swear allegiance to no master. Their only duty is to follow their hearts, to protect the weak against injustice, and to punish evil as they see fit.

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Which makes DRK much closer to the usual lore related to Paladins. While you roam with Sidurgu trying to protect a little girl from a corrupted church, Paladins are running around Eorzea to measure the size of their...sword.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, does that make Dragoons and Ninjas tanks, yet ?

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In the context of FF4, yes.
Blink was broken as heck, and Jump allowed Kain to survive Big Bang in playthroughs where you were severely under leveled.
DRGs are the most tanky jobs in all FFs with their ability to have higher than average HP, good armor, and a 100% evasion skill that also does dmg.

Put either kain or edge in the back row and they then take -50% melee dmg, while also doing dmg in the back row. (edge does more dps, due to jump taking up a turn, lowering the actual DPS. but DPS doesnt matter in a 1 on 1 scenario w/o a DPS check. As the turns in which a boss wastes attackign nothing, equate to the turn having never happened.)

Put cecil in the back row, and he's just a bad healer. (i tried this for my low level play through, he could survive big bang on occasion, but was too useless back there.)
Kain and Edge were beasts as tanks compared to cecil, when maximizing potential.
Cecil is just more straight forward, and "easier" to just take hits, since there's no set up for him.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Provoke and Cover are skills designed for you to take hits instead of you party member, that's the concept of tanking outside of MMO, and it existed since FF III.

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Provoke yes, though useless outside of FFX. Cover, not so much, since its too rare of an occurrence, which cant be properly controlled. Its better suited for offense.
put on a slow character with massive attack power, given counter attack, then put in a MNK who can easily get to low HP. (like FF6)
It COULD act as an actual means to protect allies from damage in the future games, like it does in XIV.
But you'd protect the squishies far more by sticking them in the back row in FF4. Putting non squishies in the front row. Thats the most effective tactic for protecting them from dmg.
tanking fundamentally from game design, is the job of being defensive. healers and tank are technically the same role, from a game design perspective.
but like how melee and casters are sub roles of DPS, tanks and healers are sub roles of defense.
so simply lowering dmg others take, is the equivalent of tanking (as its mostly mitigation, and someone being dedicated towards mitigation. while healers are less about mitigation, but HP going back up.)
So While Cover and Provoek are "tanking methods" its not from directly mitigating dmg, but indirectly mitigating dmg.
The spell of Protect counts as mitigation and "tanking" and so does having to force someone to the front row, where row slots are a limited resource.

So in the end, yes NIN and DRGs tank.
(also depends on the game too, as both are more than qualified to be designed as such. Just like most jobs)

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

DRGs are the most tanky jobs in all FFs with their ability to have higher than average HP, good armor, and a 100% evasion skill that also does dmg.

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The first attribute of a tank is to focus all attacks on him, what MMO call enmity. In that regard, DRG are the absolute worst tank precisely because they force the ennemy to hit somebody else.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

Put cecil in the back row, and he's just a bad healer. (i tried this for my low level play through, he could survive big bang on occasion, but was too useless back there.)

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Put Cecil in the back row, and he only take scratch damage, far lower than his capacity to heal himsel, which is why a Cecil solo run is just a piece of cake.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

Provoke yes, though useless outside of FFX.

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It was always useful to make sure weaker characters don't take hits.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

Cover, not so much, since its too rare of an occurrence, which cant be properly controlled. Its better suited for offense.

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In FFIV, you can manually decide who you want to Cover, on top of automatically Covering anyone with critical HP, again, ensuring that weaker target don't take too much hits.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

It COULD act as an actual means to protect allies from damage in the future games, like it does in XIV.

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It does, it always did.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

But you'd protect the squishies far more by sticking them in the back row in FF4. Putting non squishies in the front row. Thats the most effective tactic for protecting them from dmg.

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Back row characters still take damage. If they're at critical HP, they would still die if not covered.