As a player who's never been reported, why aren't behavior penalties ever forgiven?

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Originally Posted by Shadha

That's how I feel. And for me, there's the added complication that I roleplay. I mean, the ToS says "don't curse at anyone," it doesn't say "don't curse at anyone unless you're roleplaying." And it's kind of hard to write a situation with any gravity if the characters involved can't use bad words like adults. Even NPCs curse, and in pretty colorful ways.

Lots of roleplayers say that a GM surely would understand that it's just RP. But after the whole "penalized for a vulgar FC slogan inherited by an unused alt" thing, I no longer believe that.

It would all be okay if strikes were ever forgiven. But if a vengeful bystander can report me for writing a foul-mouthed desert monk miqo'te and get me marked for life if the wrong GM handles it, putting all the hours and dollars and friends I have in the game at risk, then...

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I can tell you for a fact GMs do not see it as just roleplay. As far as they are concerned, if you were reported then something offensive was done. This game may have role players but a GM would tell you to RP in a controlled environment like your private chambers then instead of open world RP.

I knew a guy that was RPing calling someone a thief and they didn't like that, got reported and the GMs jailed them. RP does not provide a free pass to the rules. Your freedom ends where some else's feelings begin as they say. You might see it as your character is being their character and you may not mesh/merge it into OOC, but those around you view it differently.

This is a bit off topic, but as for sensitive people and the like. I just want to remind everyone that people like the following exist.
She had this interaction with someone, and then decided to get the person removed from the convention entirely.

https://youtu.be/skQvZH3-gQM?t=182

When these people exist, no one is safe from the unnecessary banhammer.

Yeah can't really have a good time with randoms in game else you might offend someone and get reported. Using slightly colorful but mainstream language that no one would even think twice about is enough to get you reported, suspended, and banned in game. Keep yourself safe and be vanilla "Hi, we are having some weather today." (better not say it's good weather else someone might disagree and report you).

It's extremely difficult to have any respect for GMs when they will suspend you for a report from someone not even involved in your conversation because you used a swear word as an adjective to say you've been having some bad luck, talking about yourself and not directed at anyone else. One of my LS mates were suspended for this very reason, saying RNG was *rooster*-blocking them. Was talking about themself. Was not insulting anyone, just saying they was having some really bad luck in a slightly colorful way. So don't say it doesn't happen, because it does and you find more examples in the big reddit threads you see time form time with people posting their reasons they got banned.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

It's extremely difficult to have any respect for GMs when they will suspend you for a report from someone not even involved in your conversation because you used a swear word as an adjective to say you've been having some bad luck, talking about yourself and not directed at anyone else. One of my LS mates were suspended for this very reason, saying RNG was *rooster*-blocking them. Was talking about themself. Was not insulting anyone, just saying they was having some really bad luck in a slightly colorful way. So don't say it doesn't happen, because it does and you find more examples in the big reddit threads you see time form time with people posting their reasons they got banned.

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The more I hear about stuff like this, the more I think that people just roll the dice if they put something like that in the chat. Most of the time nobody will care, but sometimes there will be this one person who just has to report for anything and everything, and the GM's take action. It's actually crazy to think about. That's a crazy thing to actually be banned for, like did the GM take them and personally talk to them over this? Like, that is actually ridiculous, in my opinion, at that point I think it would be wasting the GM's time for something so minor. You are right though, better safe than sorry. Just don't bother chatting, and definitely don't use any "colorful" language, that is equivalent to a death sentence in this game if you get caught.

Whether it's right or wrong, I hear pretty often that the devs only pay any real attention to the Japanese official forum. Considering that, and just because I was curious how that community felt about all this, I posted a professionally-translated version of this thread in their general discussion, with a few differences to account for the fact that most of them, you know, probably can't speak English.

You can find it here, if you want. Chrome's built-in translator is sufficient to understand most of the posts, but the nuance is lost.

Because of that, I wasn't sure how to feel about the last three posts in the thread, so I had those professionally translated, too:

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Originally Posted by moch

Coming back from a long vacation, I had automatically been promoted to the position of leader. It's pretty strange, particularly if you think that I now have to take responsibility for my predecessor's ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by Pyonko

The word “outrageous” would seem to be appropriate here…
In a situation like this, I don't feel that things will be solved just by having the users talk it out between them.

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Originally Posted by colgon

If what Shadha said is true, then it seems that GM screwed up there.
Now, even if we're told that they have properly investigated the facts, I think that a lot of people will continue to be distrustful.
Well, it's true that I don't know exactly what kind of communication happened.

If they won't delete the damage that was done to the account, then we need to order them to make things right... is how I feel.
I don't like to use the terms and conditions as a shield.

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It's worth noting that the Japanese general discussion moves a lot more slowly. So, really, I suspect that the devs just...don't really read any of the forums... But still. It was interesting to see. Keep in mind that's a professional translation, so it should be as accurate as possible.

Mostly, I'm wondering how anyone successfully makes any meaningful suggestions about the game. I guess there's this...

https://i.imgur.com/4TG5wIu.png

But it mostly just points you back here.

The problem is, I feel like this is a serious issue with a reasonable argument to be made, but if they only really pay attention to things that have pages and pages of supportive posts, then...well, almost nobody cares about this until they've received a strike...

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Originally Posted by Shadha

The problem is, I feel like this is a serious issue with a reasonable argument to be made, but if they only really pay attention to things that have pages and pages of supportive posts, then...well, almost nobody cares about this until they've received a strike...

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I really don't understand what does/doesn't properly get the attention of folks who have ties to the dev team.

They most recently stated they'd be forwarding feedback on the raid currency inventory bloat to them, yet dozens of other threads with comparable amounts of posts get ignored.

How do people even know if they have a “strike” against them somewhere?

Most of you must have gamer rage really bad and should stop playing multiplayer games at this point. Is it really that hard for you not to type slurs and cuss words when you call somebody out for gameplay issues? I'm quite blunt with people in pf and df when something goes wrong or they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing and have been playing for five years now. I've had people report me and have never not once been in gm jail or gotten any strikes against my account.

Telling someone they are bad at the game will not get you banned. Yelling screaming and cursing at that player might get you banned. Most of you tend to do the latter. Maybe stop.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

If they were made leader of the FC due to inactiveness of the previous leader why did they not change the slogan before they were reported? They had to have known it was vulgar and could have easily changed it upon becoming the new leader. Ignoring it they are just as guilty as the person who wrote it.

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Just to clarify something from the OP, according to the original account of things (linked by OP) the FC they inherited was on an alt that wasn't even on the same datacenter as the character they usually play. So it's entirely possible they simply did not know that the FC had been passed to them.

I can speak with some firsthand experience about this. In the lull before Shadowbringers, many of us had either unsubbed or simply took a break for a while, with only a handful of us logging in sporadically. Hours before servers went down for the 5.0 patch maintenance I got a ping on discord from my FC leader. Apparently at some point the past few months, their position as FC leader got passed to me due to inactivity, exactly like in the situation described by OP.

At this point I had been playing once or twice a week for over a month, and can honestly say I had absolutely no idea that I was FC leader. It wasn't until I logged in and looked at my rank that I realized I had that shiny gold emblem instead of the usual officer's one. If that could happen to me on my main while playing casually, it could just as easily have happened to someone's alt on an entirely different datacenter.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Most of you must have gamer rage really bad and should stop playing multiplayer games at this point. Is it really that hard for you not to type slurs and cuss words when you call somebody out for gameplay issues? I'm quite blunt with people in pf and df when something goes wrong or they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing and have been playing for five years now. I've had people report me and have never not once been in gm jail or gotten any strikes against my account.

Telling someone they are bad at the game will not get you banned. Yelling screaming and cursing at that player might get you banned. Most of you tend to do the latter. Maybe stop.

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I mean, the guy I mentioned in the first post didn't do any of that and still got a strike. I get that it's easy to just blame the people who seem to think there's a problem, and it's just as easy to believe there isn't a problem if it hasn't affected you personally, but neither of those are really arguments that we're wrong. I'm not defending everyone who's posted in this thread, but many of us are actually pretty calm about this.

Just imagine, what if the guy who was warned over his FC slogan had had two strikes from years ago, and had learned his lesson from them, but then got permanently banned because it was strike three?

That that could happen at all means something's wrong with the system. I'm not in here saying people shouldn't get in trouble for screaming at people. I'm just doggedly insisting that we should be forgiven for behavior violations a year or so later. Just because someone has a bad day or makes a bad decision three times in nine years, assuming GMs don't make any mistakes, doesn't mean they deserve to be permanently banned from the game. That's draconian.

When you factor in that people report others to be vengeful, or because they said a word they didn't like and were able to convince the GM they were being harrassed, you don't even have to do anything really wrong. It all depends on who hears you and which GM reviews the report. That's literally it. And if you don't think people can be controlling, spiteful, or overly-sensitive (as in, people reporting cursing generally, not even directed at them, when there's a language filter for a reason), then I feel like you've not been paying attention. People are tribalistic and emotional, especially online. I'm not being hateful, it's just how our brains work. And if they label someone as an "bad", like you kinda seem to be doing with us, the context doesn't really matter to them anymore.

What's more is that I've literally seen people who are somewhat poorly-regarded by a server's community bait people into getting emotional and cursing at them, and then successfully report them. Not me, or any of my friends, thank god. Just in shout chat, and then I saw them talking about it later. Just, yeah, this system's busted and can be weaponized by manipulative people. Yes, I realize they shouldn't have let themselves get baited. Doesn't mean they deserve to get banned from the game because they upset someone who actively wants to punish them.

A simple system of forgiveness would go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

How do people even know if they have a “strike” against them somewhere?

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You can't see your strikes, but you get one whenever a GM punishes you for breaking the rules. There's more detail about the punishment system in a link at the bottom of my first post in the thread.

I agree there should be some statute of limitations and the strikes should not penalize the account after some amount of time.

I'm not going to Hazard a guess as to what that period of time should be

I'm curious, is there anyone who thinks a statute of limitations for strikes would be a bad idea? Is there an argument for that? Because it seems like most of the negative posts in this thread have been along the lines of "you only want this because you're a rulebreaker," which is verifiably untrue. I admit I'm naturally biased, but still.

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Originally Posted by Shadha

I'm curious, is there anyone who thinks a statute of limitations for strikes would be a bad idea? Is there an argument for that? Because it seems like most of the negative posts in this thread have been along the lines of "you only want this because you're a rulebreaker," which is verifiably untrue. I admit I'm naturally biased, but still.

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I think I'd be okay with a rolling reset every few years, just not a blanket reset. Say, you got a warning 3 years ago, but didn't make the same mistake again, so SE drops that first strike. But if you got 2 warnings three years ago, then only one of the warnings resets after that period of time.

That way someone who did genuinely get caught in an unfortunate situation (like FC name guy) gets the warning rolled off eventually, but someone who has repeated incidents over a short period of time doesn't get that benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by Shadha

I'm curious, is there anyone who thinks a statute of limitations for strikes would be a bad idea? Is there an argument for that? Because it seems like most of the negative posts in this thread have been along the lines of "you only want this because you're a rulebreaker," which is verifiably untrue. I admit I'm naturally biased, but still.

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Its just the typical anti-populist FFXIV response.

I agree that infractions should fade over time. Especially minor ones. This is coming from someone who's been playing MMORPGs for 20 years and never received an infraction in game. I doubt many of those with negative responses can boast that sort of record.

its even funnier that they offer a appeal.

When you know they aren't going to lift the ban ever and I agree it should be that after 4 strikes it should be a ban for a year because you are subbing to the game and the forums is a part of that subscription model because if you do not log onto the game with in 14 days you cannot post on the forums and even if you do not subscribe.

so why even bother adding a appeal service when the first time you get told no if you try again they will tell you straight up sorry we already seen you sent in a appeal our there for don't bug us anymore.

cousin didn't do anything bad either from what I read he even asked them for transcripts they said sorry we don't do that why? he got one email response saying he said lazy but cousin dug that topic up showed me never said lazy but the guy below him claimed he did and quoted him but what he said didn't seem like a ban offense also another time was during beta he had issues with someone and a gm told him to post on forums he'd get more help he got help and then whoever it was dug up his search history in 2016 reported him for a 2013 beta thread that should of been taken care of.

he got swept under the rug nobody wants to admit they messed up. there is nothing he could do now he just thinks the ban is not justified he's read people reports on reddit and some sound really way out there. I think bans from 2013=2016 should be unbanned due to rule changes they came out with.

he still reads forums he says and see's others saying stuff he usually says but nothing ever happens so it just makes him think that he got wronged.

me I can't say much except he isn't wrong anyone can see some stuff people do don't seem very ban worthy it depends on the people on the forums or on game they get angry then want revenge they dig anything up they can on them and report and have friends go after them as well seen that happen in allakzham.


but SE will never change stance they probably want you to go and get a new copy of game new expansions and pay more money to use forums. anyways outy 9000.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

The reporting system makes it so you do have to think twice about saying something critical of another player - and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. No one is going to get reported for saying "hi hi! how are you doing?" at the start of a run. No one is going to get reported for saying, "I'm sorry I got myself killed, that was my fault" when they fail a mechanic. Or for saying, "If you get the mark above your head, go to the back to avoid popping the cages. The adds here hit really hard." No one is going to get reported for telling another player they think their glam is cute. Rather, if someone is silly enough to report you over social niceties or explaining mechanics, the GMs won't actually add the strike.

There was a story a week or so ago for someone who got reported to a GM because of "elitism" because they had advertised a learning party in PF, a SAM asked to join, and they told the SAM "sure!" But the SAM apparently did not understand how party finder worked, and expected a party invite personally... and reported the person when they didn't get it. The GM who responded re-read the chat and went "You know what? Nevermind. Have a nice day."

There is definitely fuzzy line over what people will bother to report, and what GMs will take as a serious report, but the line is a lot deeper than most people realize. Be kind, and you have little to worry about.

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Honestly, I think as a paying customer, I should be able to be rude and you can just use the block feature. There's a blacklist for a reason, and if that's enough to solve your problem, I shouldn't have to risk being out of my money because you're sensitive.

I know I'll be in the minority in this.

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Originally Posted by Akamukai

Honestly, I think as a paying customer, I should be able to be rude and you can just use the block feature. There's a blacklist for a reason, and if that's enough to solve your problem, I shouldn't have to risk being out of my money because you're sensitive.

I know I'll be in the minority in this.

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Whether I agree or not, I think that's a reasonable way to feel. That said, I think the idea is that if everyone's allowed to be a rude paying customer, fewer people will want to play the game. That's not really what happened with WoW, but still. And this is where I note that I don't necessarily think that our community is nicer than WoW's (maybe some, but still), we're just less overt about it. Then again, the difference between being two-faced and being polite might be a matter of perspective.

I know somebody who got temp banned for "stalking". He was afk at an aetheryte, a guy who didn't like him teleported to him and then reported the afk guy for stalking. The afk guy got temp banned, even though he was there first, and afk.

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Originally Posted by Shadha

Whether I agree or not, I think that's a reasonable way to feel. That said, I think the idea is that if everyone's allowed to be a rude paying customer, fewer people will want to play the game. That's not really what happened with WoW, but still. And this is where I note that I don't necessarily think that our community is nicer than WoW's (maybe some, but still), we're just less overt about it. Then again, the difference between being two-faced and being polite might be a matter of perspective.

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I have nothing against the GMs taking action against rude, or particularly abusive people. Severity of bans should be considered before a permanent ban is given. It shouldn't be a blanket "3-strike" system. Permanent bans should only be given under the most egregious of circumstances, in my opinion.

They should also stop wasting their own time and throw out ridiculous reports, and stop taking action on them. I wonder if they realize they are being used by passive-aggressive players, and players who target others for the specific reason of getting them banned.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I know somebody who got temp banned for "stalking". He was afk at an aetheryte, a guy who didn't like him teleported to him and then reported the afk guy for stalking. The afk guy got temp banned, even though he was there first, and afk.

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I would bet actual money that there’s more to the story than that. Everyone “knows a guy” who swears they totally didn’t do anything. You play online games long enough and you realize that they’re usually not so innocent

hello everyone... I see a bit of discussion going on here and just want to add to this... i've actually said this in a few posts and it still baffles me... but first... yes i have received a strike, me and a friend were doing one of the 24 man raids... ppl were starting to get cranky cause people were making mistakes so... comments were made everyone started laughing... many many many more wipes were caused due to everyone laughing so hard they couldn't' see straight... next day both me and my friend got an email saying... ohh you did something inappropriate so there is now a strike against your account... this was when Ozma was current content and that's what we were doing... No one told us to stop with the raunchy comments... nothing... everyone was just laughing and then that... yeah.. I don't talk much in game after that... my mouth runs a head of me.. i know it does... but on to what baffles me the most... the fact that you can be reported for cursing when there is a profanity filter... if ppl are subverting the filter and getting around it.. ok i can see a report happening... but... i don't ... i know many people who could care less about that... i turn off the profanity filter cause the blasted thing drives me nuts.. i see someone cursing i see ___****___ get that away from me. Needs a disclaimer... if you turn off the filter you are agreeing to be subjected to vulgar language and remove your right to report for such... or something along those lines

i mean... in most games that have online interaction... it states... online interaction is not rated by the ESRB.. the only things that should really be policed is A harassment, B harassment, and C did I mention harassment? I do agree on the timed penalty forgiveness.. I got 1 strike.. i know my mouth gets a head of me... but i'd rather not be scared to have a good time because my way of it.. is aghastly offensive to someone whom... i'm probably never going to encounter again.. yes i'll say raunchy things... i like to see a group laughing... but if someone tells me to stop i will.. far too many times do i hear about someone getting reported... or hell, i hear a gm is talking with um... and they get explained to.. if someone had told me to stop i would have... no one did... gm looks through the logs... sees no one said anything and drops it

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Originally Posted by Misurugi

boop

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The profanity filter is more like a safety net to catch anything that people let slip, but people are still expected to watch their own behaviour.


I do agree that people shouldn't just report others without at least mentioning the issue first - just a simple "Excuse me, I find that word/phrase etc. offensive" just to let people know they might have said something in poor taste.

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Originally Posted by Hazmick

The profanity filter is more like a safety net to catch anything that people let slip, but people are still expected to watch their own behaviour.


I do agree that people shouldn't just report others without at least mentioning the issue first - just a simple "Excuse me, I find that word/phrase etc. offensive" just to let people know they might have said something in poor taste.

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Then how would they get more evidence in the chat? It's for that juicy report.

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Originally Posted by Shadha

I'm curious, is there anyone who thinks a statute of limitations for strikes would be a bad idea? Is there an argument for that? Because it seems like most of the negative posts in this thread have been along the lines of "you only want this because you're a rulebreaker," which is verifiably untrue. I admit I'm naturally biased, but still.

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I only would want that for minor strikes but for really bad ones those should stay on the account. It might sound harsh but would people that for example harrass someone or stalk someone really change if they knew that they would just have to behave well for some time and everything would be fine? But again this is for certain bans. I would be fine if some minor things are deleted over time.

I think there needs to be a point system. cheating.. etc. max points week ban. , remove undo cheat . stays on your acct forever. do it again your perm banned. others based on points, which stay on for a year and then fall off. if a pattern is active, it will happen within a year and the person reaches the max points and gets perm banned. kind of how DL work. so many points for speeding, agressive driving, running lights, passing school bus. . blah blah. just a thought, best way is to never chat .. just say "hello" and turn your chat off. which is sad. yes some ppl can be toxic, some are just having abad day and are really good folk, and many are just wanting to be social, which this is an MMO .. ;) thanks for reading my .02

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Originally Posted by Enla

Honestly I think strikes should stay on your account for upwards to a year and at that juncture should be able to be appealed or wiped entirely. Sometimes like you said it's just someone being stupid of catching blame for something they didn't do, and after a year has passed without any other incidents it is fair to assume the lesson should have been learned.

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Strikes on Accounts Stay Forever Trust me i Know it to 100% cuz i make a DSGVO Request and got a Pic of the Chat and Email blacked like from the FBI why i got this Strike 5 Yeahrs Ago

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Originally Posted by Hazmick

The profanity filter is more like a safety net to catch anything that people let slip, but people are still expected to watch their own behaviour.


I do agree that people shouldn't just report others without at least mentioning the issue first - just a simple "Excuse me, I find that word/phrase etc. offensive" just to let people know they might have said something in poor taste.

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That just invites a bigger problem and targeted harassment, especially online where you have a large number of people who delight in tormenting anyone they deem a "snowflake." If someone would like to give someone a verbal warning before reporting, that's their prerogative, but you're contractually bound to follow the ToS, so that burden falls on your shoulders alone. Nobody is obligated to alleviate you of it in even the slightest manner.

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At any rate, OP, it would be nice if the penalties slowly decayed. Blizzard does it that way both in the game and on the forums and I definitely benefited from that, as I did pretty much exactly what you said–I trolled as a teenager and found it boring as I got older, so I'm much better behaved now. Having said that, I've never been actioned in this game, so I'm not too worried.

After seeing a few new "can I report this person for this reason?" threads since posting this, I feel more justified than ever.

I sorta wish it was a more controversial idea so it would get more attention, lmao.

Please forgive me for double-posting! I feel dirty, but I may try to put this question forward in Live Letters, and I'd like to post in here when I do so.


If you want, you can like my question: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5100640


I was a few days late to this one because I managed to injure myself Monday and have mostly just been resting and healing...but there'll be other Live Letters later I guess. It's one of the only legitimate ways to ask Yoshi-P anything and I don't wanna try to circumvent that. Unless anyone wants to cover a flight to Japan so I can discuss it with him over an expensive dinner.