SHB BLM is the peak of this game's job design

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright kids, hot take time:

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When I first read the description of Aspect Mastery I was really hoping it would affect Flare; sadly it does not, at all (Flare still costs MP from UI).

My preference would be option 1.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

While this might work above level 68, between that level and 50 it would mean the BLM AoE fire rotation is a single flare followed by waiting for MP. At least F2 casts give you a chance to proc thunder to get around the MP tick issue.

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Considering we already avoid F2 like the plague, I would like to see the math on a rotation of F3>Flare>TP>Freeze to cap (with generous sprinklings of T2/4) vs F3>F2 till near empty>Flare>TP>T2/4.

Though I feel like if your math shows a higher PPS value on using F2 as it currently is, there might be a flaw given the concensus is to simply avoid it.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright kids, hot take time:

Thoughts?

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No.

But if yes, you easily fix this by having Flare consume on umbral heart, cost 2400 MP to transition, and bam, it's not worth using in single target.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Considering we already avoid F2 like the plague, I would like to see the math on a rotation of F3>Flare>TP>Freeze to cap (with generous sprinklings of T2/4) vs F3>F2 till near empty>Flare>TP>T2/4.

Though I feel like if your math shows a higher PPS value on using F2 as it currently is, there might be a flaw given the concensus is to simply avoid it.

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This is probably going to be my last post because of the forum post limit. F2 has always had some use, it just became increasingly niche with time. In SB F2 overtook Flare at something like 15 enemies because Flare's 78(?) potency minimum was below the 80 of F2 and F2 also had a faster cast time. F2 requires a large number of enemies to be worthwhile in Shadowbringers as well, which is why I only looked at the case with 10 enemies.

Intermediate level AoE prefers F2 because when you can only cast Flare once and have to wait for MP ticks, you overall PPS goes down, so you don't need as much PPS in a given cast to find a net increase in total PPS.

4 enemies, assuming instant MP ticks on transpose, I also don't know how many F2's you can actually cast, I just went with 3:

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 67.2
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 188.5 PPS

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 67.2
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 185.0 PPS

Adding T2, I'm estimating that it procs for 50% of casts at 4 enemies. That's an effective PPS of 328 which increase the averages to 208.4 and 220.7 respectively.

BLM feels extremely good right now, I leveled SMN first and now I'm leveling BLM. Even at 72 the aspect mastery makes a big difference along with despair.

Also why are so many people posting AOE rotation with F3 before starting Flares... Freeze straight into flare feels smoother with a super fast flare cast. Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Hzex076

BLM feels extremely good right now, I leveled SMN first and now I'm leveling BLM. Even at 72 the aspect mastery makes a big difference along with despair.

Also why are so many people posting AOE rotation with F3 before starting Flares... Freeze straight into flare feels smoother with a super fast flare cast. Am I missing something?

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You mean the massive potency dump?

Casting spells from opposing stances is 50% less cast time and 50% less potency on the base number.

This means Flare is coming out at 130 potency done from Ice.
Flare coming out in AF3 is 260 x 1.8, or 468.

Thanks for that, I really didn't know. Don't remember it from the starter guide. I appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You mean the massive potency dump?

Casting spells from opposing stances is 50% less cast time and 50% less potency on the base number.

This means Flare is coming out at 130 potency done from Ice.
Flare coming out in AF3 is 260 x 1.8, or 468.

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Wrong. Umbral Ice does not decrease the potency of the spell, only MP and cast time.

The reason you drop F3 in some AoE rotations is that after about 5 adds you get a higher PPS by using only AoE skills. The raw damage you get not using a GCD on a single target is higher even though you lose about 40% of the total strength on the first Flare.

Okay that makes a lot of sense. I've always found that BLM had an awkward AOE rotation. Thanks for giving me more clarity.

I just took another look at the BLM guide which led me to the wiki on Umbral ice stacks and it mentioned that it will reduce the potency of a fire spell by 30% for 3 three stack of umbral ice... is that correct as of 5.0?

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Wrong. Umbral Ice does not decrease the potency of the spell, only MP and cast time.

The reason you drop F3 in some AoE rotations is that after about 5 adds you get a higher PPS by using only AoE skills. The raw damage you get not using a GCD on a single target is higher even though you lose about 40% of the total strength on the first Flare.

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https://i.imgur.com/8BY7bt7.jpg

So my bad on the numbers. It appers to be closer to a 25%-30% reduction.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

https://i.imgur.com/8BY7bt7.jpg

So my bad on the numbers. It appers to be closer to a 25%-30% reduction.

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So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

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Originally Posted by Hzex076

So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

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Sounds like you can do either to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Hzex076

So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Sounds like you can do either to be honest.

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Less than 5 adds, use F3.

5 or more adds, skip F3.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Less than 5 adds, use F3.

5 or more adds, skip F3.

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Sounds good, thanks for yalls input. That was really bugging me.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

This is probably going to be my last post because of the forum post limit. F2 has always had some use, it just became increasingly niche with time. In SB F2 overtook Flare at something like 15 enemies because Flare's 78(?) potency minimum was below the 80 of F2 and F2 also had a faster cast time. F2 requires a large number of enemies to be worthwhile in Shadowbringers as well, which is why I only looked at the case with 10 enemies.

Intermediate level AoE prefers F2 because when you can only cast Flare once and have to wait for MP ticks, you overall PPS goes down, so you don't need as much PPS in a given cast to find a net increase in total PPS.

4 enemies, assuming instant MP ticks on transpose, I also don't know how many F2's you can actually cast, I just went with 3:

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 168
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 188.5 PPS

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 168
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 185.0 PPS

Adding T2, I'm estimating that it procs for 50% of casts at 4 enemies. That's an effective PPS of 328 which increase the averages to 208.4 and 220.7 respectively.

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Maybe I'm missing something (edit: these calculations are rough), but:
(168 + 192 + 192 + 192 + 327.6 + 160) / 6 = 205.3
(168 + 327.6 + 160) / 3 = 218.5

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Originally Posted by Hzex076

I just took another look at the BLM guide which led me to the wiki on Umbral ice stacks and it mentioned that it will reduce the potency of a fire spell by 30% for 3 three stack of umbral ice... is that correct as of 5.0?

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From the testing I have done the values of -30% (x0.7) for Fire spells in UI and +80% (x1.8) for Fire spells in AF3 appear to still be correct.

Also, I'm not sure how the math turns out but the issue with using Flare straight from UI is that Aspect Mastery does not apply... i.e. you will eat your Umbral Hearts and most of your MP for a Flare with -30% potency. Casting Fire III from UI costs nothing (except a GCD) and you can then cast 2 full strength Flares (at +80% potency), or 3 with Manafont.

Edit(2) Updated: Did some (more correct) math and the cross over point appears to be 8 enemies (though the benefit is as little as 0.4%)... for 10 enemies the benefit is about 1%, and it caps out around 3%.

Edit(3): If you are using Triplecast (or even Swiftcast); i.e. lowering the effective cast time of Flare in AF to the GCD; then you should always enter AF with F3.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Also, I'm not sure how the math turns out but the issue with using Flare straight from UI is that Aspect Mastery does not apply... i.e. you will eat your Umbral Hearts and most of your MP for a Flare with -30% potency. Casting Fire III from UI costs nothing (except a GCD) and you can then cast 2 full strength Flares (at +80% potency), or 3 with Manafont.

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I did it earlier. The break even point (when both do the same potency per second) was 5.08 enemies. Before that, F3 Flare is "Better", after that, Cold Flare is "Better". However, when you extrapolate this out to 5, 10, 15, enemies, then factor in Foul / T4 and potential procs, the short answer is

Use either.

Updated: Noob mistake with the averages, but the conclusion is still the same: Freeze spam > Fire II rotation :/

Crunching some more numbers on this AoE stuff, and, umm, maybe I've missed something but are you better off just spamming Freeze (and Thundercloud procs) from level 35 to 50 for AoE?

Maths:
Freeze (in UI) = 100 / 2.5s = 40 PPS per enemy.
Fire II (in AF3) = 80*1.8 = 144 / 3.0s = 48 PPS per enemy.

So we are OK so far, Fire II (while being cast in AF3) has a higher PPS... the issue comes in when you put it in a rotation, mainly that you can only cast 3 Fire II's before having to switch back to UI (with Freeze), and that the best(?) way to switch from UI back to AF is Fire III (a single target spell).

So a rotation of Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Freeze has a total potency of (168 + 576 + 576 + 576 + 280) = 2176 for 4 enemies and takes 14s; so 2176 / 14 = 155.4 PPS... but Freeze alone has a PPS of 40 x 4 = 160 for 4 enemies, and it doesn't get any better (it actually gets worse) as the number of enemies increase; so, ummm ???

Add to this that we don't even get AF3 until level 40 (Magick and Mend II) and it gets even worse. It gets a bit better at level 50, where adding in Flare increases the PPS of the rotation to greater than that of Freeze alone… even then though, using Flare without Umbral Hearts (to say nothing of having to Transpose and wait for an MP tick) is kind of clunky.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Thoughts?

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Never take the Black Mage outside Expert Roulette. :P

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Wrong. Umbral Ice does not decrease the potency of the spell, only MP and cast time.

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According to the wiki, each rank of UI reduces the potency of Fire spells by 10/20/30%, in addition to ranks of AF increasing it by 40/60/80%.

Mathematically that means any Fire spell cast at UI3 has about 40% of the potency of the same spell at AF3.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Crunching some more numbers on this AoE stuff, and, umm, maybe I've missed something but are you better off just spamming Freeze (and Thundercloud procs) from level 35 to 50 for AoE?

Maths:
Freeze (in UI) = 100 / 2.5s = 40 PPS per enemy.
Fire II (in AF3) = 80*1.8 = 144 / 3.0s = 48 PPS per enemy.

So we are OK so far, Fire II (while being cast in AF3) has a higher PPS... the issue comes in when you put it in a rotation, mainly that you can only cast 3 Fire II's before having to switch back to UI (with Freeze), and that the best(?) way to switch from UI back to AF is Fire III (a single target spell).

So a rotation of Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Freeze has a PPS of (67.2 + 192 + 192 + 192 + 112) / 5 = 151 for 4 enemies (where AoE > single target)... but Freeze alone has a PPS of 40 x 4 = 160 for 4 enemies, and it doesn't get any better (it actually gets worse) as the number of enemies increase; so, ummm ???

Add to this that we don't even get AF3 until level 40 (Magick and Mend II) and it gets even worse. It gets a bit better at level 50, where adding in Flare increases the PPS of the rotation to greater than that of Freeze alone… even then though, using Flare without Umbral Hearts (to say nothing of having to Transpose and wait for an MP tick) is kind of clunky.

Thoughts?

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We can finally play an Icemage, below level 50?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

We can finally play an Icemage, below level 50?

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It seems so :)

Flare changes things and is worth it up to about 8 enemies if you are hard casting, though it somewhat depends on how long you have to wait for an MP tick after Transpose. Swiftcast Flare in AF is definitely worth it, but the real game changer isn't until level 68 (Enhanced Umbral Heart), and then of course level 72 (Aspect Master).

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Maybe I'm missing something (edit: these calculations are rough), but:
(168 + 192 + 192 + 192 + 327.6 + 160) / 6 = 205.3
(168 + 327.6 + 160) / 3 = 218.5

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Oh you're right. I accidentally typed the potency of F3, not the PPS. The averages are correct, just the F3 PPS is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Updated: Noob mistake with the averages, but the conclusion is still the same: Freeze spam > Fire II rotation :/

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I hadn't really given the pre 50 rotation much thought. Good to know that Freeze and thunder is the way to go. I just hope it doesn't confuse the rest of the party that you happen to be in. There are probably a few people who don't main BLM but know enough about it to think avoiding fire is a huge DPS loss. Maybe add a macro to freeze "/p yes this is actually optimal" lol

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

That AOE rotaion of Freeze -> Filler -> (F3 Optional) -> Flare -> Flare -> Repeat is so smooth.

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What is Filler? I missed that somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Shepceptional

What is Filler? I missed that somewhere?

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Thunder/Thundercloud procs and Foul.

Thanks! Should i be sharpcasting the T4 or F3 spells in AOE rot.?

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Originally Posted by Shepceptional

Thanks! Should i be sharpcasting the T4 or F3 spells in AOE rot.?

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Sharpcast Thunder spells.
F3 for transitioning from UI to AF is shorter cast and no MP anyway.

Thanks! Should i be sharpcasting the T4 or F3 spells in AOE rot.?

I am a budding BLM and I just wanted to say thanks to all you who have posted the info and opinion in this thread. Reading through it has really explained a lot about the evolution of play style I should expect as I keep leveling up.

Has anyone figured out if it's worth using a firestarter proc after using despair if you never used it during your rotation, or is it better to just go into umbral ice at that point? Also, does black mage have an AoE rotation between 50 and 72 that doesn't feel terrible?

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Originally Posted by Dragonpuff

Has anyone figured out if it's worth using a firestarter proc after using despair if you never used it during your rotation, or is it better to just go into umbral ice at that point? Also, does black mage have an AoE rotation between 50 and 72 that doesn't feel terrible?

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I use Firestarter to weave Swiftcast before Despair. Despair is like Flare, it gains significant DPS when made into an instant cast since it's longer than the GCD, even longer than F4.

EDIT

Since I didn't actually answer your question, I'm calculating the basic BLM rotation (no SPS, no procs, no cooldowns, no Xeno since it's on its own timer) to be 158.2 PPS. Firestarter is 172.8 DPS on its own. So it's a DPS gain to cast it.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I use Firestarter to weave Swiftcast before Despair. Despair is like Flare, it gains significant DPS when made into an instant cast since it's longer than the GCD, even longer than F4.

EDIT

Since I didn't actually answer your question, I'm calculating the basic BLM rotation (no SPS, no procs, no cooldowns, no Xeno since it's on its own timer) to be 158.2 PPS. Firestarter is 172.8 DPS on its own. So it's a DPS gain to cast it.

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Thanks for that edit; i'm already using firestarter to weave swiftcast for despair when swiftcast is up and using firestarters when I need to move unexpectedly, but I wasn't sure if it was worth using those times where swiftcast is on cooldown and everything worked correctly. Do you happen to know if thunderclouds are always worth using if they don't mess up your rotation, or does thunder's DoT need to be under a certain number of seconds left for it to be a DPS gain?

Could someone post a link to the BLM guide that's been mentioned here a couple of times?

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

-snip-

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So what I'm getting from this is --

18-34: Fire II spam till empty, Transpose, Blizzard II (or Thunder II after 26) to full, Transpose
35-49: Freeze spam at three or more targets (as the Fire II rotation goes up by 35.9 PPS/target while Freeze is an even 40), Fire III then single-target rotation below (Fire II having arguable use at 2 targets until Firestarter at 42)
50-80: Flare is your new god

... I guess there goes the "Fire II has niche uses" argument for not just upgrading it into Flare, since it's basically mutually exclusive with Freeze.

Here's what I think you could do: make Blizzard II and Fire II both 25y, radius 5y aoe attacks which have 2.5s cast times and deal 80 potency to each target. Somewhere in the 60s or 70s, a trait should upgrade them so that they always give you full stacks of Umbral or Astral, just like Blizzard III and Fire III do. Additionally, increase Freeze's cast time to 4s to match Flare's.

That way, all the baseline Blizzard and Fire spells have symmetrical damage profiles, and all have at least a hypothetical use case - you'd use the new Fire II to swap to AF3 while AoEing, you'd use the new Blizzard II to regain UI3 if you've just been rezzed or otherwise lost Enochian, and you'd continue to use Freeze to swap from AF3 to UI3 after a Flare.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So what I'm getting from this is --

18-34: Fire II spam till empty, Transpose, Blizzard II (or Thunder II after 26) to full, Transpose
35-49: Freeze spam at three or more targets (as the Fire II rotation goes up by 35.9 PPS/target while Freeze is an even 40), Fire III then single-target rotation below (Fire II having arguable use at 2 targets until Firestarter at 42)
50-80: Flare is your new god

... I guess there goes the "Fire II has niche uses" argument for not just upgrading it into Flare, since it's basically mutually exclusive with Freeze.

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I feel like that's more negligence on their part than a design choice, though. Nothing uncommon for the leveling process, since you're not really even designed for unless you're at level cap. You're just... scavenger-status.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I feel like that's more negligence on their part than a design choice, though. Nothing uncommon for the leveling process, since you're not really even designed for unless you're at level cap. You're just... scavenger-status.

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Lets not pretend ARR classes were foundations of great design either.

In retrospect, they were all almost universally at odds with themselves.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Lets not pretend ARR classes were foundations of great design either.

In retrospect, they were all almost universally at odds with themselves.

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How is saying that former expansions have shared little of the design improvements over further expansions felt at level cap pretending that ARR classes were well designed?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Jobs being designed for level cap includes when level 50 was the level cap.

And ARR jobs were a mess :P

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And a handful of ShB jobs are still a mess at level 80. That doesn't change the fact that changes meant to benefit play at level 80--as at 70 in SB prior--had negative effects on the toolkits available to players up until those points, all without note or even the faintest compensation.

Blackmage plays awesome at high level.

But in level synch it's horrible. You have to learn different rotations for every level-area, you have to keep skills on your hotbar you will only use in level synch (Fire 2, Blizzard 2), then we have Foul wich changes from a single target nuke into an AoE-only nuke. And then all the QoL updates like switching from 0 mana into UI and being able to keep UI between pulls - and being able to stack it to UI3 so you don't have to cast the 4 seconds Fire 3 / Blizzard 3 spells all the time.

Espcially the AoE rotation is a hot mess. It seems like it changes every few levels.

BLM needs a rework to streamline the leveling process, thin out the questionable skills and bring the QoL improvements earlier into the job. But on the other hand BLM is so awesome at high level that a rework could possibly destroy the job...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How is saying that former expansions have shared little of the design improvements over further expansions felt at level cap pretending that ARR classes were well designed?

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Jobs being designed for level cap includes when level 50 was the level cap.

And ARR jobs were a mess :P