Ran'jit's strength makes no sense

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Part of the issue is, and I recall this specifically coming up in the aftermath of 2.55, they can't really spend time accounting for every single job in the game for their cutscenes, at least in regards to having an animation for you actually doing things. I don't think Scholars/Summoners would be blocking many swords with their books, for instance, ability to do it in Susano'o ignored.

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Yes, for simplicity's sake most of our competence happens in instances, because cutscenes are exponentially complex between all the job and race combinations possible.

Honestly, it's not so disturbing.

He is a man who has lived through decades of fighting the Sin Eaters. He is probably the strongest human of the First.
The fact that he can fight with us as equals for a while is not so impossible (Even if we exclude Zenos, people like Gaius, Estinien, Ilberd or Raubhan for example can perfectly do). At the end of our first fight, he barely neutralized us for a few seconds with one specific technique, which will never work against us again as efficiently (proving like we have probably learned from our mistake).

If I compare Ran'jit's strength to how easily we were arrested and forced to flee during Nanamo assassination attempt, I have always find it much more shocking.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

Honestly, it's not so disturbing.

He is a man who has lived through decades of fighting the Sin Eaters. He is probably the strongest human of the First.
The fact that he can fight with us as equals for a while is not so impossible (Even if we exclude Zenos, people like Gaius, Estinien, Ilberd or Raubhan for example can perfectly do). At the end of our first fight, he barely neutralized us for a few seconds with one specific technique, which will never work against us again as efficiently (proving like we have probably learned from our mistake).

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At the same time, strength and experience fades over time and Vaulthy would have ensured that Ran'jit would not fight another Sin Eater as long as he was alive. It's a wonder that Ran'jit never gave into the very sloth and vice that he fought for and believed in.

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Originally Posted by Edax

At the same time, strength and experience fades over time and Vaulthy would have ensured that Ran'jit would not fight another Sin Eater as long as he was alive. It's a wonder that Ran'jit never gave into the very sloth and vice that he fought for and believed in.

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He seems like the type that would still train as best he can and guard the city just in case someone tried to do something silly.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

He seems like the type that would still train as best he can and guard the city just in case someone tried to do something silly.

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Given his impassioned plea about giving up, it seems he's the opposite of the type of person you describe.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Given his impassioned plea about giving up, it seems he's the opposite of the type of person you describe.

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He was giving up fighting the Sin Eaters. There are people *cough*Crystarium*cough* who were against the peace offered by Eulmore. They were a potential issue, especially after Thancred decided Minfilla didn't belong in Eulmore.

Watching someone you care about dying over and over can do things to you.
Especially since there was that addage about insanity repeating the same thing but expecting different results.

Ran'Jit shouldn't have even been in the game. His connection to the story was threadbare and there was no explanation for how deus ex broken he was outside of "he's been fighting a long time".

Honestly, they should have just built up the two Jongleur girls instead. They were proper creepy from the outset, fitting the theme of the expansion as the player was introduced to it. Make them an escalating annoyance throughout the story culminating in a big body horror moment where they turn into some kind of insane Sin Eater amalgam.

Basically they should have been the Zorn and Thorn of Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Donnicton

Ran'Jit shouldn't have even been in the game.

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I disagree. Granted, I think his character was handled somewhat poorly, but it's fairly clear that he was meant to mirror Thancred with the whole father figure arc. Really don't see how the two jesters as a Zorn/Thorn reference could achieve that in the slightest.

What Ran'jit really needed was some Echo flashbacks to him interacting with past Minfilias, so we could actually get a sense of how long he has been fighting, and watch that erode him. I also think his relationship with Ryne should have been... Better? At the very least she should have been able to mourn his passing, think Garnet/Brahne (although perhaps the IX character he should most closely have resembled is Beatrix). He did, after all, want to bring her back so she didn't have to fight and die, there's some amount of good intention in that... All we saw of him though, painted a picture of more of an abusive father figure... Really hard to feel any empathy for him when the only shred of emotion or character he ever showed was right as he died, I think they should have shown that side of him a whole lot more. The whole point of his character was that he raised these children to die fighting Sin Eaters, yet we never saw that, we're only told it. If we were shown it more often I think he'd have been a much better character. Here's hoping the Anniversary Tales can shed a bit more light on that, though it's still a shame to have that handled in a short story rather than seeing it in game where it really should have been...

Oh my no, I don't at all share the opinion that if you Fordola/Yotsuyu in minor underbaddies who do nothing but commit petty acts of one-dimensional evil throughout the expansion to drive the good guys' motivation and then force-feed us some cutscenes near the end about how their horrible past drove their horrible actions up to this point, it does enough to salvage them as a character, much less a sympathetic villain.

To make him work in a manner that makes the player care about him you'd have to rewrite the entire character, you'd have to make him more interesting than irritating the player with some Diet Zenos scripted losses and a couple of Echo drops. He'd need to be more involved with the story from the outset - he needs a proper introduction, a proper arc and a proper execution(so to speak). He doesn't need to be written as well as a second Emet-Selch, but he at least needs to be as interesting as the beast tribes. As Ysayle. Even Edda. God, for Scholars even the Tonberries became quite interesting. And I'm not really confident that the kind of rewriting that would be needed to make him to work just to force some kind of Bizarro-Thancred wouldn't also come at the detriment to the rest of the story, considering how well the rest of the story works without him and how unaffected it is with him.

Sometimes a Grynewaht is just a Grynewaht, and his role in the story I think would not have seen any sort of great vacuum having instead been filled by that kind of character - some annoying little flunkie gofer sycophant of a petty and childish villain like Vauthry, who generally just irritates you for a while and then he's gone and you're glad he's gone - like the nameless captain who was with Ran'jit in the greatwoods.

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Originally Posted by Donnicton

Oh my no, I don't at all share the opinion that if you Fordola/Yotsuyu in minor underbaddies who do nothing but commit petty acts of one-dimensional evil throughout the expansion to drive the good guys' motivation and then force-feed us some cutscenes near the end about how their horrible past drove their horrible actions up to this point, it does enough to salvage them as a character, much less a sympathetic villain.

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I'm not at all saying that's what they should do, just that's all they can do at this point... Some post-MSQ flash backs and the Anniversary Tales are the only possible way for them to flesh him out at this point, since he is already dead.

I disagree that his character needs a complete rewrite, his character was actually perfectly fine IMO. The issue is just they pretty much never showed it, the entire Minfilia/Ryne Thancred/Ran'jit arc was fairly rushed IMO, and I think Ran'jit came out the worst of it. His character was, and should have been shown as, a father figure for Ryne. Instead he is just the angry guy that's chasing after us, who comes off as solely abusive more than anything else. Pepper in a couple Echo flashbacks to actually show us his character, maybe give him a few solid interactions with Ryne to flesh out their relationship. Done, the actual character he is said to have is now shown. Instead the only window into any of that we actually see is his dying line, which I agree, is an absolutely terrible way to have handled things. That's the issue with Ran'jit in a nutshell, we're told things about him, and shown very little of it. All we're consistently shown is that he is a competent general, everything else we're only told... It needed to be shown, and that's the problem with him.

It's far too late for them to shoehorn that kind of stuff into the MSQ though, so I see little point in laboring the point. Best we can hope for is some post-story that might flesh him out a bit, which yes is a flawed way to handle things, but I didn't say it was a good way to handle it, did I? I simply said it's the best we can hope for. I agree that his character was poorly handled in the MSQ, but to say his character could be completely removed? No, I disagree with that. Like him or not, he was central to Rynes character arc and development. You can't just remove a character like that and replace him with a couple of nameless jesters... Wouldn't even make sense to have those two following us around the world... Eulmore needed a general, and it makes perfect sense for that general to also have be the "father" who raises Minfilias. It's a shame the MSQ focused solely on him being the big-bad leader of Eulmores army, when his relationship to the Minfilias and Ryne had far more potential. Only thing they can do to rectify that now is (hopefully) an Anniversary Tale.

I wonder how much of the complaints about Ran'jit and similar characters stem from some people being bitter that their glassy eyed waifu characters are actually given a run for their money and can't just cut through anything and everything put before them? I found him to be a pretty interesting character - a former hero with a tragic past broken by the bleak fate of the world.

It's particularly hilarious when those selfsame posters are absolutely fine with new protagonists being able to perform feats of great strength the moment that they appear!

Sure, more information about Ran'jit would be appreciated, though it isn't a problem for him to be powerful enough to give the Warrior of Light and Scions a hard time. The story would be very boring if it was just a power fantasy along the veins as some here wish it to be!

I attributed his "strength" to his unpredictable fighting style. TBH, you were whisked away from that first fight. His fighting style probably took some getting used to but once you knew how to deal with it, you overcame him. That he could pose a challenge for someone like Thancred is only understandable.

Also, some individuals on the First do possess the Echo - even a fractured soul with the Echo could prove a challenge, even if slight in the grand scheme of things. Maybe that is part of it. So that's what I make of it. I don't think they're really suggesting he's that mighty. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That said, they do have to leave some room for characters outside of Primals, Ascian Overlords, Lightwardens, Voidsent royals, genetically engineered Purebloods and the like to pose a challenge, else it becomes rather one note.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wonder how much of the complaints about Ran'jit and similar characters stem from some people being bitter that their glassy eyed waifu characters are actually given a run for their money and can't just cut through anything and everything put before them? I found him to be a pretty interesting character - a former hero with a tragic past broken by the bleak fate of the world.

It's particularly hilarious when those selfsame posters are absolutely fine with new protagonists being able to perform feats of great strength the moment that they appear!

Sure, more information about Ran'jit would be appreciated, though it isn't a problem for him to be powerful enough to give the Warrior of Light and Scions a hard time. The story would be very boring if it was just a power fantasy along the veins as some here wish it to be!

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At times, it does have that vibe... I am sure the devs realise that soon grows boring. I just wish they'd put a bit more focus on fight mechanics for fights like Hades, rather than watering down the MSQ version so everyone can get through it with minimal effort and leaving it all to ex modes. Not like you can't just watch a video of the outcome if you're that in a hurry to find it out; the main point of those fights should be their difficulty. I don't put too much stock into mechanical difficulty, though, because MSQ fights will lose out by default, especially depending on the format, but they really can go a bit further with the trials and the like. Like the solo duties with Zenos or Elidibus, or Zenos in the dungeon. They don't do the characters justice by implementing the mechanics in that way, regardless of what their lore "power levels" are, not to mention the joke that they are with tank or healer jobs, which really should see ramped up difficulty to make them sweat a bit. At least it isn't as outright ridiculous as some of the stuff in HW...

With all that said, some people were annoyed that the Dramaturge made their character fetch things. :D

I just brush off the disconnect between the EX fights and story fights as game-play and story segregation. I did like it better when the EX fights were canon, though - they do a much better job at making specific characters be very intimidating. Though given how much of a variety there is in terms of skill level amidst members of the community I'm not surprised that the development team are forced to compromise in such a matter.

At least the story makes a point of showing that the Warrior of Light rarely triumphs alone and usually has allies backing him up. If not for that, he'd likely be akin to a squashed pancake on the floor against many a foe! Even in many JRPG's, the 'main hero' never defeats the big bad alone. Or at least in most cases. I've never cared much for the 'one many army' trope, though. Nor have I felt compelled to consider my characters to be as such as a role-player.

Agreed, I do much the same, though I kinda wish the ex modes were the "canon" ones, with the normals being either non-canon "officially", or just your hazy recollection of them whilst caught up in the excitement of the battle.

Granted, with the WoL there is the aspect of being 9/14ths full "Overlord"-equivalent (then, 8/14ths) plus the Blessing of Light, which is a truly formidable combination, but there are clearly ways you can still blindside the character besides overwhelming them through sheer power and Ran'jit was one case of this. Trying to put it all down to pure "power levels" is probably a fool's errand in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Agreed, I do much the same, though I kinda wish the ex modes were the "canon" ones, with the normals being either non-canon "officially", or just your hazy recollection of them whilst caught up in the excitement of the battle.

Granted, with the WoL there is the aspect of being 9/14ths full "Overlord"-equivalent plus the Blessing of Light, which is a truly formidable combination, but there are clearly ways you can still blindside the character besides overwhelming them through sheer power and Ran'jit was one case of this. Trying to put it all down to pure "power levels" is probably a fool's errand in this regard.

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Another route would be tighter restrictions on how much you can 'outgear' a fight. Some battles are a lot more impressive than others for that reason. I did Shinryu last night, in fact, and it melted quickly with minimal threat - but at Stormblood's launch it was quite easy to wipe. Tsukoyumi, however, is still quite fearsome if mechanics are not followed due to how much damage she is capable of unleashing.

That, and it's easy to get distracted during the fight due to how much of a tragic character she is! Especially when the music shifts during phase transitions. I still consider Yotsuyu and Hien to be the best characters to come out of Stormblood. Fordola being a close third in equal place with Magnai.

Yes, or the Thordan fight, which is a bit of a joke now. Yes yes, you can "just do ex", but it waters down the experience for the normal versions to become that way. I find Nabriales is one of the few trials that have withstood the test of time.

The Tsukuyomi and Hades fights can both be quite distracting!

The true source of Ran'jit's power is definitely his eyebrows. By having those, he has proven to us that SE is indeed capable of giving us Highlander models with eyebrows. Cat's out of the bag.

I was hoping we'd get some explanation for why and how he beat us. I mean, yeah he's been fighting sin eaters his whole life, and yeah they're a powerful foe. But we've been running around slaying primals and monsters and voidsent for however long we've been doing that, so we're not exactly rookies.

And... not sure if it's cheese or not but we are 8x closer to having our original soul than he is. I feel like that should count for something? Maybe?

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I'd be fine if say,

Ran'jit beat us using some sort of technique, and we found a way to counter it, and then were able to beat him. But just throwing us into hopeless boss fights with scripted losses 'oh no he's too pooooooowerful' and then inexplicably having us beat the same character later for no reason other than assuming it's because our levels got higher is disapointing.Take Fordola for example, after the cannon incident Uriangr made a way to turn her power against her and we used that to defeat her. That was much more narratively satisfying, if still a bit convenient, than how Zenos and Ran'jit were handled.

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Honestly I had a problem with that too.

You expect me to believe this guy was somehow stupidly powerful compared to me for reasons, and then he somehow magically becomes a bit of a pushover, again for... reasons???? His death was so unbelievably unsatisfying that it was actually frustrating to me.

Honestly, the thing that annoys me most is the gameplay - story segregation here. You can play Ran'jit for a fool in the fight, dancing around all but his autos and busters, but then at some point he just says "screw it" and "kills" (neither of my characters actually dropped to even 1hp from his final attack) your character. I'm absolutely fine with Ran'jit being a strong character, but in most RPGs I've played when there's a battle you're *supposed to lose*...but you win, the story acknowledges that with at least your character stalemating them in the cutscene after.

Kingdom Hearts 1 for instance: you're not supposed to beat Leon, but you can, and if you do the following cutscene is different. It leads to the same conclusion: Sora passes out, though the player is left with the satisfaction that their winning or losing in the fight was by their own power. Disgaea 2 takes this in an extreme direction, actually giving unique endings if you, say, beat Etna in Chapter 3 or Laharl in Chapter 11(?). If say, you beat Ran'jit in the fight, the cutscene following could reflect that with WoL still standing, if looking exhausted; Ran'jit could comment about not expecting to be pushed so far, charge his attack and then Thancred pulls his trickery, scene plays out as normal.

TBH, for me, it's really just the insult of "well I'm oneshotting you now." Unwinnable fights can be done so much better, and they can even be rewarding when you do win.

Unwinnable fights are perfectly fine to me and have been a staple of many JRPG's and in quite a few of the other Final Fantasy games. The only people who seem to have an issue with them are those who want to be able to slaughter or subdue any and all who dare to stand in their way, usually under the pretense of 'realism'. Though that realism, as pointed out earlier, mysteriously doesn't extend to the player character and their major allies.

Beatrix was never defeated in FF9, despite being fought multiple times. It made her a very memorable character, especially since she sided with your party after a certain point in the game. I just don't understand how some you can seriously imagine a diminutive 'waifu' player character performing the various feats that they do in-game but somehow it's too much for a hardened, seasoned combatant like Ran'jit to be successful at driving your character off.

Here's hoping we see more situations like it in the future!

You're better than baseless ad hominem, Theodric. My statement was there are better ways to do unwinnable fights than "lol I kill u now". I think my statements were perfectly reasonable and my examples were relevant in regards to my opinion that there are better ways to handle that particular narrative beat.

Honestly, having a fight I was clearly winning (perks of being a warrior allowed me to get him to 40% in the first fight) go the other way due to "omg he's so cool and I wish had his scythe cause he's sooo cooool with his dragon" gimmick is getting old.

We were around the same narrative stand point in Stormblood when Rhalgr's Reach was attacked and Zenos beat us. It's just lazy story telling to have an unwinnable fight (again, in the same point in the story as last expansion) just to set it all up. Particularly when we don't even get exposition on what his power was. We get that with Zenos but not even a hint as what Gakumatz is or was. Once is acceptable, twice is a pattern.

How about this: Have a win state and a fail state. That way if I play well enough to actually beat the big bad guy/girl/bootlicker, I get a change in narrative so I can feel like the hero (and have my ego stroked), while everyone who loses has another narrative.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You're better than baseless ad hominem, Theodric. My statement was there are better ways to do unwinnable fights than "lol I kill u now". I think my statements were perfectly reasonable and my examples were relevant in regards to my opinion that there are better ways to handle that particular narrative beat.

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I was being playful. :(

My apologies if it seemed to be aimed at you, specifically, it was meant as a more general statement. My take on it is that whilst things could be handled better, it's usually only the antagonists that are held under such scrutiny. If a new protagonist emerges and they're shown to be a competent fighter, nobody tends to question how they're able to stand toe to toe with their opponents. Yet if an antagonist is introduced and they're shown to be a competent fighter there's a lot more skepticism.

I just don't understand it. Heck, I don't particularly like it when the game bends over backwards to stroke the Warrior of Light's ego by telling him how unique and amazing he is. Putting aside that every other player character is told the exact same thing, it just makes for a bland story if they're not challenged harshly every now and then. Ran'jit served his purpose well in that regard, I thought. We knew enough to get an idea that he was a powerful foe - and his unfamiliar fighting style caught our character and his allies off guard. I don't think it needed some deep explanation.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I just don't understand it. Heck, I don't particularly like it when the game bends over backwards to stroke the Warrior of Light's ego by telling him how unique and amazing he is. Putting aside that every other player character is told the exact same thing, it just makes for a bland story if they're not challenged harshly every now and then. Ran'jit served his purpose well in that regard, I thought. We knew enough to get an idea that he was a powerful foe - and his unfamiliar fighting style caught our character and his allies off guard. I don't think it needed some deep explanation.

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I can't understand why someone would want to lose. You know it's going to end with us being saved by <insert friend here>. What thrilling story telling considering that has happened every time we are forced to lose a fight. Sorry not sorry, we are not some run of the mill soldier or mercenary. Some rando fighting us is always going to to have predictable results. We will always win in the end. It's not like they can kill off our character and/or force the player to never play again.

Become what you must. Become the Japanese video game protagonist.

Ran'jit's strength now makes sense - he has magical kung fu from a region beyond Norvrandt. This makes me question how he's lived as long as he has though, given the Flood was a century ago. (Maybe that's why he looks kind of haggard; he used magic to extend his lifespan?)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I just don't understand how some you can seriously imagine a diminutive 'waifu' player character performing the various feats that they do in-game but somehow it's too much for a hardened, seasoned combatant like Ran'jit to be successful at driving your character off.

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How petty. At this point, the diminutive 'waifu's have become as battle-hardened and seasoned as any other PC.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If a new protagonist emerges and they're shown to be a competent fighter, nobody tends to question how they're able to stand toe to toe with their opponents. Yet if an antagonist is introduced and they're shown to be a competent fighter there's a lot more skepticism.

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The difference is that new protagonists are often introduced fighting on our side, while new antagonists are usually introduced fighting against us. The Warrior of [Light / Darkness] has crossed the width and breadth of the land, slaying countless foes both important and not. A kung fu monk being able to defeat us because of his magical kung fu drastically downplays the PC's ability to learn and adapt to a changing battlefield by implying that their unfamiliarity with Ran'jit's combat style is the main reason we lost to him... even though they have fought in extreme situations multiple times before, adapted, and persevered.

Even if expertly trained, Ran'jit is still just one man. The PC has gone up against the most powerful extant beings known on both worlds (such as Zenos, a man so powerful and skilled he can single-handedly turn the tide of a battle or war) and beyond and come out on top. Losing because he has magical kung fu is a bit silly, in my opinion.

Conversely new protagonists are often introduced fighting alongside and/or saving us, showing they can match (though not exceed) our mettle.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Unwinnable fights are perfectly fine to me and have been a staple of many JRPG's and in quite a few of the other Final Fantasy games. The only people who seem to have an issue with them are those who want to be able to slaughter or subdue any and all who dare to stand in their way, usually under the pretense of 'realism'.!

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You're wrong, there are other people who have problems with unwinnable fights. For one, these fights can be an absolute waste of time. Other JRPGs like Tales of Symphonia are able to make unwinnable boss fights more dynamic by allowing you to win some of the fights in the sequence and creating different cutscenes acknowledging this. By just having Ranjit waste 10 minutes of his and our time in a pointless fight, just to click an "I win" button is extremely unsatisfying, it has nothing to do with players needing

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Originally Posted by Theodric

to be able to slaughter or subdue any and all who dare to stand in their way

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Unwinnable fights are perfectly fine to me and have been a staple of many JRPG's and in quite a few of the other Final Fantasy games. The only people who seem to have an issue with them are those who want to be able to slaughter or subdue any and all who dare to stand in their way, usually under the pretense of 'realism'. Though that realism, as pointed out earlier, mysteriously doesn't extend to the player character and their major allies.

Beatrix was never defeated in FF9, despite being fought multiple times. It made her a very memorable character, especially since she sided with your party after a certain point in the game. I just don't understand how some you can seriously imagine a diminutive 'waifu' player character performing the various feats that they do in-game but somehow it's too much for a hardened, seasoned combatant like Ran'jit to be successful at driving your character off.

Here's hoping we see more situations like it in the future!

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I'm fine with unwinnable fights if it's well done and believable. I was even fine with Zenos for the most part, because he's got his own kinda power and the right kind of reckless zeal and obsession to drive himself to all kinds of lengths. I do think they had us get lolstomped by him just a few too many times, though... or at the very least, from a gameplay perspective, my *god* those fights dragged on. But the final battle and final cutscene where we defeated him was satisfying to me. It really felt like we grew to the point of being strong enough to win that fight.

With Ran'jit I just... didn't feel it.He just kept beating us and coming back and beating us again to the point where it was almost annoying, like a hound dog just chasing us, and the whole time he's got me wondering how? How's he doing it? What technique is he using, what power does he have that we don't know about? And then. Nothing. He's just an ordinary (well trained and experienced) guy, and we kill him in a relatively short and easy 1 on 1 battle because... reasons, I guess.

Which... you know, I think what irritates me most is that he had so much potential. He was set up to be a serious threat, someone strong and clever, someone who's bitter and angry and whose lost and lost again and again and has decided that fighting the end just isn't worth it anymore. It's hinted at, over and over, but in the end he just... falls over and dies. I didn't feel like I earned that win, and it just wasn't satisfying at all.

It was a disappointing end for a character chock full of unused potential.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I'm fine with unwinnable fights if it's well done and believable. I was even fine with Zenos for the most part, because he's got his own kinda power and the right kind of reckless zeal and obsession to drive himself to all kinds of lengths. I do think they had us get lolstomped by him just a few too many times, though... or at the very least, from a gameplay perspective, my *god* those fights dragged on. But the final battle and final cutscene where we defeated him was satisfying to me. It really felt like we grew to the point of being strong enough to win that fight.

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You know the funny (and possibly dumb) thing about this? They said us defeating Zenos was a miracle. I.e. he's actually still stronger than the Warrior of Light by an apparently pretty significant margin. My guess would be that him fusing with a primal to fight someone whose specialty is killing primals might have been his downfall there.

The Warrior of Light has been built up over time, sure, though they're not going to spend the same amount of time building up each and every antagonist we face. All we needed to know was that Ran'jit was a seasoned, veteran combatant and the leader of a powerful army. The logical assumption is that he is a threat and that his fighting style was something that the Warrior of Light had not encountered.

It seems to me that it's more a matter of personal tastes than something the writers have done incorrectly. Even with all the reasoning behind Zenos there were still people who didn't like the idea of their character losing to him. Sure, the writers could have done more with Ran'jit but even if they did, it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ran'jit's strength now makes sense - he has magical kung fu from a region beyond Norvrandt. This makes me question how he's lived as long as he has though, given the Flood was a century ago. (Maybe that's why he looks kind of haggard; he used magic to extend his lifespan?)

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My initial impression was that Ran'jit's techniques were passed down through the survivors of that non-Norvrandt ("Vrandtic" is the adjective, if I recall) region, as well as their cultures and naming conventions. I believe the description of the A-rank hunt Huracan says it's the familiar his father used, and it's speculated to still be around because Ran'jit's father was turned into a Sin Eater, which means Ran'jit's father was present in Norvrandt after the Flood. So we have kind of an upper bound on that timeline.

However, Ran'jit also implies that he's been broken by seeing several generations of Minfilias die, which makes me wonder how many of these generations there have been, given it has been a century since the Flood of Light. Assuming each Minfilia lived for about fifteen years (and ignoring the horrific implications of that hypothesis), there should be about six generations since the Flood of Light, especially since it's stated that there are "some years" between Minfilias. Which would certainly be enough to emotionally break a man like Ran'jit, but also imply that he's been around for every generation.

So it's entirely possible he's been able to prolong his life and effective combat ability through either magic, or sheer badass-ness.

I still think it's the mustache and eyebrows.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warrior of Light has been built up over time, sure, though they're not going to spend the same amount of time building up each and every antagonist we face. All we needed to know was that Ran'jit was a seasoned, veteran combatant and the leader of a powerful army. The logical assumption is that he is a threat and that his fighting style was something that the Warrior of Light had not encountered.

It seems to me that it's more a matter of personal tastes than something the writers have done incorrectly. Even with all the reasoning behind Zenos there were still people who didn't like the idea of their character losing to him. Sure, the writers could have done more with Ran'jit but even if they did, it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

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The thing that still sticks out to me about Ran'jit's strength is that, yes, he certainly has time and experience as strong factors for being as accomplished as he is-- but all in a stagnant world that's on the precipice of collapse. For all that he's seen and done? There would eventually come a point where he's likely seen and faced most of what Norvrandt has to offer in terms of fighting capability. He'd hit a wall.

Meanwhile, we've been fighting adversaries from almost every spectrum of life, from mortal to divine, and have likely seen a great deal of fighting styles and techniques that we ourselves have often come to master. We may lack for time, but in our role as the Warrior of Light? We've probably matched him in experience. So why is unfamiliarity with a fighting style not applied to Ran'jit? Why isn't he somehow set off-kilter due to seeing martial arts and magics developed from an entirely different world?

I don't mind losing a battle here or there, and I can accept that Ran'jit may just be that powerful, but all of the factors that apply to him apply to us.

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Originally Posted by Gerel

The thing that still sticks out to me about Ran'jit's strength is that, yes, he certainly has time and experience as strong factors for being as accomplished as he is-- but all in a stagnant world that's on the precipice of collapse. For all that he's seen and done? There would eventually come a point where he's likely seen and faced most of what Norvrandt has to offer in terms of fighting capability. He'd hit a wall.

Meanwhile, we've been fighting adversaries from almost every spectrum of life, from mortal to divine, and have likely seen a great deal of fighting styles and techniques that we ourselves have often come to master. We may lack for time, but in our role as the Warrior of Light? We've probably matched him in experience. So why is unfamiliarity with a fighting style not applied to Ran'jit? Why isn't he somehow set off-kilter due to seeing martial arts and magics developed from an entirely different world?

I don't mind losing a battle here or there, and I can accept that Ran'jit may just be that powerful, but all of the factors that apply to him apply to us.

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To be fair he wouldn't have hit a wall for quite some time, though. Bear in mind that that game exists in a weird time bubble and so although a lot of time has passed in the real world it hasn't been that long since the Warrior of Light first arrived in Gridania/Ul'dah/Limsa. I don't deny that the Warrior of Light has accomplished a lot but he still doesn't know everything there is to know about battle.

I'd also point out that Sin Eaters come in quite a vast number of varieties, each needing to be dealt with differently. To say nothing of the various other threats present across Norvrandt. In addition, simply being wounded by a Sin Eater is often enough to condemn someone to the unfortunate fate of either turning into one instantly or slowly devolving into one over time.

So I took it as him being a powerful foe by virtue of living and surviving long enough to outlast many others. Much like the Warrior of Light, Ran'jit lost a lot of people he presumably cared for. Friends, family, the various 'Minfilia' girls, comrades and so on.

One might even argue that some of those we face have lost far more than the Warrior of Light and as such something breaks in them that cannot be repaired. Yet they still have that drive to push onwards, further fueling their ability to fight.

That's how I see it, at least.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair he wouldn't have hit a wall for quite some time, though. Bear in mind that that game exists in a weird time bubble and so although a lot of time has passed in the real world it hasn't been that long since the Warrior of Light first arrived in Gridania/Ul'dah/Limsa. I don't deny that the Warrior of Light has accomplished a lot but he still doesn't know everything there is to know about battle.

I'd also point out that Sin Eaters come in quite a vast number of varieties, each needing to be dealt with differently. To say nothing of the various other threats present across Norvrandt. In addition, simply being wounded by a Sin Eater is often enough to condemn someone to the unfortunate fate of either turning into one instantly or slowly devolving into one over time.

So I took it as him being a powerful foe by virtue of living and surviving long enough to outlast many others. Much like the Warrior of Light, Ran'jit lost a lot of people he presumably cared for. Friends, family, the various 'Minfilia' girls, comrades and so on.

One might even argue that some of those we face have lost far more than the Warrior of Light and as such something breaks in them that cannot be repaired. Yet they still have that drive to push onwards, further fueling their ability to fight.

That's how I see it, at least.

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Does the Warrior of Light know everything about battle? Far from it. There's still always something to learn, something to glean from the world, and that's the point of the Warrior of Light's existence: they're an avatar of Hydaelyn's will for creatures to learn, hear, and think. That's why they continuously rise above the rest and encompass more than their corner of the world. But that's the inherent issue with the First and Norvrandt.

They've lost so much of their culture, history, and even their very world.

Are Sin Eaters a threat? Sure. But they're also creatures of apparent instinct who can be studied rather thoroughly to predict how they'll act. To the point where them -acting differently- is what gets people more than a little worried. Ran'jit has had far more time than most, and eventually, I feel a man who's at the head of the Eulmore military would begin to figure things out from a tactical standpoint.

As for virtue of being powerful by sheer will? I can also accept that. Plenty of people pull through on that explanation, like Thancred. But the Warrior of Light is often portrayed as an empathetic figure who's far more prone to taking on the weight of those they encounter. Can see that much in the Dark Knight storylines. They, personally, may not have lost as much as the rest of the world--but they do experience it keenly. Almost to an obsessive level. They just bury it deep, deep down because they're the "chosen hero" who has to carry the world on their shoulders.

It still doesn't address, though, that Ran'jit's advantages over us could just as easily be flipped around and used on him narratively. Which I think is his ultimate downfall. He's not a freak of nature like Zenos, and I think he would've better suited us as a tactical foil--not an opponent we beat down. They should've emphasized his role as head of Eulmore's military might far, far more.

Considering he's a general of an army, has some interesting techniques we've never seen before, and has seen several reincarnations of Minfilia one can determine he has had lots of experience in combat and has some unusual enhancement of his life expectancy, his strength and speed. He even survived a fall that should've killed him and has a form of true sight, so he's definitely got some kind of supernatural gift, perhaps an empowerment from Lord Vauthry or some kind of ancient practice we haven't been exposed to ourselves that has made him into a super soldier.

Yoshi P and Oda answered it,its related to the martial arts his ppl did at a place that got flooded and also related to his dragon-serpent~
but generally its due to the years of experience he has with constant fighting

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wonder how much of the complaints about Ran'jit and similar characters stem from some people being bitter that their glassy eyed waifu characters are actually given a run for their money and can't just cut through anything and everything put before them? I found him to be a pretty interesting character - a former hero with a tragic past broken by the bleak fate of the world.

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To be fair, I never wanted my glassy-eyed waifu to instantly be the best at everything she does. I much preferred the FFXI paradigm, in which my character was involved in some incredible things, and certainly talented, but at the end of the day was just another adventurer among many, and treated as such.

I've come to terms with the fact that Lineage is a paragon among paragons, though, after having it beaten into me for so many years. It's thoroughly baked into the game, and there's not much point in complaining about it now. However, this means that when an exception occurs, like Zenos or Ran'jit, I ask WHY. It's not an unreasonable question to ask. What makes these challenges so exceptional, after having successfully faced what we have?

Personally, I'm satisfied with Ran'jit's explanation. He's a thoroughly seasoned warrior utilizing an esoteric fighting style unfamiliar to us. It begs the question as to why we've not run into similar seasoned warriors on the Source (None interested in facing us? Not even for coin, hired by the Garleans?), but it makes sense that a century of experience could give him an unexpected edge. Zenos's overwhelming strength is a bit less palatable. He's pretty much that strong just because of natural talent, honed by sociopathy and narcissism.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

With Ran'jit I just... didn't feel it.He just kept beating us and coming back and beating us again to the point where it was almost annoying, like a hound dog just chasing us, and the whole time he's got me wondering how? How's he doing it? What technique is he using, what power does he have that we don't know about? And then. Nothing. He's just an ordinary (well trained and experienced) guy, and we kill him in a relatively short and easy 1 on 1 battle because... reasons, I guess.

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To be fair, we only fight Ran'jit three times (once as Thancred), and in those there times, he only beats us once. Thancred's is a narrow victory, and WoL's final bout is decisive. It's why the "secret trick that only works once" theory some have holds up.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

So it's entirely possible he's been able to prolong his life and effective combat ability through either magic, or sheer badass-ness.

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I think the timeline works out, all right. If we assume that Ran'jit is 120 now (a remarkable lifespan, but not outrageous) and that he was talented beyond his years at 20, he may have been assigned to work with the first Oracle of Light when she appeared. When she passed, and a new Oracle appeared, he may have been assigned to her by default due to his previous experience working with an Oracle. And so on, over time becoming the Oracle "subject matter expert", as it were.

I don't have a problem with Ran'jit or Zenos beating us. I don't even have an issue with Ran'jit just beating us because he's that well trained and badass.

I have an issue with how things resolve. What changes between our second and third fight with Zenos? Nothing except our level number arbitrarily went up. What I don't like is the vague 'power level' shoenen vertical story power progression.

We didn't overcome some great trial to beat Zenos/Ran'jit. We didn't do some training to coutner their style or find some sort of weakness to exploit. We just keep doing our thing, and then when the script says it's time to beat them, we beat them.

The other issue I have with it is how the initial battles themselves play out. An easy as hell boss fight with easy mechanics chipping away at an over inflated health bar with a pre scripted 'you lose' moment does not sell a character as intimidating. It makes them feel cheap and annoying.

It would play better if the fights were actually hard, keeping us on edge, and making us scramble just to try and survive as long as we can. SOmething more like the chapter 3 end boss of Type 0.

I don't care that every now and then we lose. I care that we get an easy scripted boss fight, lose because the story says so, keep doing our normal thing, and then magically win when the story says it's time for us to win.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Personally, I'm satisfied with Ran'jit's explanation. He's a thoroughly seasoned warrior utilizing an esoteric fighting style unfamiliar to us. It begs the question as to why we've not run into similar seasoned warriors on the Source (None interested in facing us? Not even for coin, hired by the Garleans?), but it makes sense that a century of experience could give him an unexpected edge. Zenos's overwhelming strength is a bit less palatable. He's pretty much that strong just because of natural talent, honed by sociopathy and narcissism.

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I had wondered that myself. Where is the Source's reflection of Ran'jit? Most of the recognizable alternate selves we've seen of people so far were actually pretty similar to their Source counterparts, so one would think we would know if we'd run into (or run afoul of) him. Then again, the Source had no Sin Eaters to fight. Perhaps he only achieved such great mastery of his style due to fighting countless battles against blatantly inhuman foes, in which case it would make sense for his counterpart on the Source to never attain the vast strength and longevity. It seems equally possible that his unique martial art did not exist at all on the Source. Were this the case, well, its version of Ran'jit could have been an extremely unremarkable man that is long since gone.

And Zenos... yeah. Zenos is blandness in motion. I'm really hoping they at least come out with some excuse about how he was the product of some horrible science experiment or something. He already comes off like an expy of Sephiroth in some ways. Might as well just go whole hog at this point, no?