About the races we have.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

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I don't think I've said anything that would get me reported though? I mean some people seem like they're kind of being aggressive toward me, but I'm just talking normally.

I'll just leave it off at this; let people voice their opinions on things without shutting them down - on both sides. People shouldn't be called cowards for not agreeing, but no one should be dog piled because they have their own opinions on things too. Just let people be. Let people request things. If you don't like it and want something else, then request your own thing.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I'm not sure how true this is, I'm taller than my husband, and my brother's wife is taller then he is. Most super models are rather tall also.

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^^ I said some men, not all. A lot of men very much like their women nice and tall. Viera ladies certainly fill the supermodel space, they look glorious.

And long as this thread doesn't end up getting heated up and all not we should be good.

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Originally Posted by Leomoon

As much as I would like people to enjoy every game they play but not every game is gonna have 100% of everything you want.

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I get that, but as a Final Fantasy game, you'd expect that you'd get a little more of the Final Fantasy Aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by Leomoon

If we were in a perfect world every game would have a black desert character creations system with body proportions. But we don't and honestly I know it is impossible for that. due to skeleton issues.

As much as I would like people to enjoy every game they play but not every game is gonna have 100% of everything you want.

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Oh yeah, I would love some actual beards and some chest hair options for my Roegadyn. Same with Hrothgar, would love some nice thick beards on them, actual hair options and the ability to stand up straight but that's not happening and it's fine with me. Like you said no game is going to cater 100% to my interest, I take what I get.

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Originally Posted by Berret_Snow

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It'll never happen if you don't ask for it. Nothing wrong with requesting more beard options, or possibly chest hair for roe although there might be limitations on that. As for hrothgar standing up straight, that may be a /changepose option.

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Originally Posted by Leomoon

If we were in a perfect world every game would have a black desert character creations system with body proportions. But we don't and honestly I know it is impossible for that. due to skeleton issues.

As much as I would like people to enjoy every game they play but not every game is gonna have 100% of everything you want.

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No way. I get that people want to play what they want to play, but there is a limit. Some people's characters look stupid as heck, and completely ruin any immersion, or continuity in the game lore. There should be some restrictions in place, but you should be able to go crazy in the bounds of reason.

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Originally Posted by Vanitas

Back in my day character customization threads used to be about asking for more facial features and not a violent forceful injection of gross real life politics into a video game.

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Since when were masculine women and feminine men political? Imagine being told your body type or appearance was political. "Violent forceful injection"? Chill out. People just want more variety in body types. People were going ape over the idea of chunky Miqo'te, but fem dudes are just Political by default, I guess.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Some people's characters look stupid as heck, and completely ruin any immersion, or continuity in the game lore.

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Yeah, all the cutesy waifus that all look exactly the same are pretty immersion breaking for me. It's unlikely and unrealistic that you'd see such an absurd amount of tiny female miqo'te, au ra, and midlanders no matter where you are in the game world.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

It kinda annoys me that I can't make a Character that looks like Bartz, Cecil, WoL or any of the old style FF characters. Elezen I guess comes the closest, but not really. They have a kind of feminine (yet still somehow masculine) face that you can't get currently in FF14.
As for short, maybe some people really enjoyed FF9 and want a Character like Zidane.

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Seems intentional from SE that they're doing that. Look at Aymeric, Hien, Hilda and Yugiri faces. They same to give those to NPCs instead of playable characters.

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Originally Posted by Vanitas

Back in my day character customization threads used to be about asking for more facial features and not a violent forceful injection of gross real life politics into a video game.

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Those were the days, man.

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Originally Posted by Berret_Snow

Oh yeah, I would love some actual beards and some chest hair options for my Roegadyn. Same with Hrothgar, would love some nice thick beards on them, actual hair options and the ability to stand up straight but that's not happening and it's fine with me. Like you said no game is going to cater 100% to my interest, I take what I get.

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I honestly agree. I wish he had more long hair for women or just more styles atm.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I get that, but as a Final Fantasy game, you'd expect that you'd get a little more of the Final Fantasy Aesthetic.

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I wasn't disagreeing. I wish we could get more things like the older FF. More options for people has never been a bad thing for me.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Since when were masculine women and feminine men political? Imagine being told your body type or appearance was political. "Violent forceful injection"? Chill out. People just want more variety in body types. People were going ape over the idea of chunky Miqo'te, but fem dudes are just Political by default, I guess.



Yeah, all the cutesy waifus that all look exactly the same are pretty immersion breaking for me. It's unlikely and unrealistic that you'd see such an absurd amount of tiny female miqo'te, au ra, and midlanders no matter where you are in the game world.

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You seem upset.
https://i.imgur.com/YJlBRvY.gif

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Since when were masculine women and feminine men political? Imagine being told your body type or appearance was political. "Violent forceful injection"? Chill out. People just want more variety in body types. People were going ape over the idea of chunky Miqo'te, but fem dudes are just Political by default, I guess.

Yeah, all the cutesy waifus that all look exactly the same are pretty immersion breaking for me. It's unlikely and unrealistic that you'd see such an absurd amount of tiny female miqo'te, au ra, and midlanders no matter where you are in the game world.

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I mean, to be fair... you're a lot more likely to see small women than feminine looking men who are naturally feminine (without working for it) rather than developing a feminine appearance due to sexuality and/or fashion choices.
Strong buff females and feminine looking men tend to have to put a lot more effort in to achieve that look unless they are naturally blessed with those traits.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Since when were masculine women and feminine men political? Imagine being told your body type or appearance was political. "Violent forceful injection"? Chill out. People just want more variety in body types. People were going ape over the idea of chunky Miqo'te, but fem dudes are just Political by default, I guess.

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I won't agree that the inclusion of more feminine males is somehow political. It's not, but I will point to the boyish, arguably twinky males already present in the game. Manqote, Midlanders, and (arguably) Lala. I had a duty with a Lalafella that crossdressed and I had no idea he wasn't female until I looked at his search info. My jaw dropped over how convincing he was. It's not hard to make any of those three races effeminate.

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Yeah, all the cutesy waifus that all look exactly the same are pretty immersion breaking for me. It's unlikely and unrealistic that you'd see such an absurd amount of tiny female miqo'te, au ra, and midlanders no matter where you are in the game world.

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Your tone makes it seem like you carry this odd vendetta against cutesy, petite women. Every statement you've made in regards to them has been implicitly crapping on peoples' avatars because of their choice in aesthetics while you sit bitter because people voice their preference in not having another race glamour of males that can be made to look very feminine. The reason no one's voiced their "concern" for another brand of masculine females is because the only two races that fit that niche are Thighlanders and Roegadames. The ratio is offset.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Seems intentional from SE that they're doing that. Look at Aymeric, Hien, Hilda and Yugiri faces. They same to give those to NPCs instead of playable characters.

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They want their major NPCs to look unique, and it seems to be a separate system to the basic NPC "build-a-face" programming. I think the faces are more like a single custom mask that gets placed onto the generic face structure.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Why exactly do need feminine men?

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we don't need it, but it would be a nice option to have for some, since it would allow to further express ourselves on completely new ways.
I personally wish male viera will be masculine with 'femenine' traits such as longer eyelashes, and I also don't really understand what the word femenine on english means very well, since wehre I was born u can use it to describe soft and things that don't like to fight etc, and it has little to do with gender

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Originally Posted by Ahribear

Idk male Elezen seems pretty feminine (except the height ofc)

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Yeah, their long neck is a form of feminity in some cultures.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Yeah, their long neck is a form of feminity in some cultures.

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I didn't know giraffe's necks were considered femenine on some cultures. Guess u learn something new every day

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Originally Posted by zeylos

I didn't know giraffe's necks were considered femenine on some cultures. Guess u learn something new every day

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Neck rings. Though that's more about beauty than femininity, but you can see how both terms seem interchangeable by lots of people /shrug

personally i think female highlanders fulfill the muscular female bodytype better than female roegadyn do

With regards to femininity or androgynous in males i find how SE handles it is probably for the best, you get 1 face that can be customized in this direction in most races, yea you still have muscles even at lowest setting but this is fine (especially considering what our character does we would have a little muscle :P). This is what i ask for male Viera to have 1 face be potentially customizeable to be more feminine/androgynous while the default is whatever, this way i'll be 100% happy with their inclusion rather than just 90% that they got added to a FF game at last.

I'll just leave this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4sLQ0-rfI

Personally I hope that Hrothgar ladies won't be too bulky if they're added. I really want one of my alts to be one, but female Roes are pretty much my limit for bulkiness, so no more than that please SE lol.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

As for short, maybe some people really enjoyed FF9 and want a Character like Zidane.

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For Zidane we could stack with Miqo'te + Thancred 3.0 haircut + Veteran Zidane clothes... kind of. They seem to be a little bit too much athletic for Zidane, though, but they will be the closest option for recreating his style.

Dunno why ppl say that they want more feminine males while i tried to do it myself and it's work for me imho with 5 from 7 races
https://i.imgur.com/z3WIPZi.png

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I'll just leave this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4sLQ0-rfI

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He don't look feminine or androginous, but a cross-dresser. An ugly cross-dresser.

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Originally Posted by AnPo

Dunno why ppl say that they want more feminine males while i tried to do it myself and it's work for me imho with 5 from 7 races
https://i.imgur.com/z3WIPZi.png

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Can you post them full-body? For me, that Au Ra is not feminine.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Where do y'all live where feminine guys are all child-like? It's super weird how people conflate men being feminine with looking young. Of course, the same people probably have no problem with extremely young looking female characters (I see all of you with your uwu waifus).

I'm sure my partner would love more options to make his character more feminine looking while still being a dude, because that's how he is. Some of you say it's just 'preference' and people want their characters to look like themselves, but apparently that line of thinking stops with feminine men?

And why is it only feminine men that people are complaining about, do people forget that masculine women were also mentioned? Is it because people see being feminine as shameful or undesirable? Like how a woman in pants is fine but a man in a skirt is punchline.

inb4 I get eaten alive for this post

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A young Male does not have the features of a post pubescent Male, thus femininity is attached to that because when you say feminine you think, every single characteristic that makes a pre pubescent boy. Look at K pop dudes, they are borderline androgynous and that's cool if it's your style, but you do not look masculine, you look like a 14 year grown man boy.

Masculine women have no issues I am aware of in society, I mean when it comes down to the biological reasons, well that's a whole dissertation.

sure, it feels for me pretty feminine since male au-ra have a narrower waist compared to other races
https://i.imgur.com/lJCSjJB.png

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Originally Posted by AnPo

sure, it feels for me pretty feminine since male au-ra have a narrower waist compared to other races
https://i.imgur.com/lJCSjJB.png

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Au'ra have what I like to call 'Birth giving hips' due to the proportions they have from regarding the waist and hips. Anyway, that chap does look rather femme looking. Though that might just be the very young looking face? And when someone has a face that could be linked into adolescents - they tend to look more 'feminine' as the masculine traits have yet to show themselves until after puberty hits. He can pass as a female at first glance, without the auri male animations ruining it.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I'll just leave this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4sLQ0-rfI

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If only the WoL could talk. He could have said he's a dude lol.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I'll just leave this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4sLQ0-rfI

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This. You can already make some pretty effeminate men, you could also go the other way and make an androgynous looking woman. I always thought this was the friendliest mainstream mmo to people wanting to express some gnc avatar, though the glamor game could use some work. And it's surprising because in Japan "dondake" is a punchline. They don't feel the same way westerners do about this sort of thing. So this mmo is actually kind of progressive.

But I also still believe no male viera is just matsuno mulling it over. Bunny ears don't necessarily make a man effeminate, as shown by some p spectacular art.

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Originally Posted by brasteir

This. You can already make some pretty effeminate men, you could also go the other way and make an androgynous looking woman. I always thought this was the friendliest mainstream mmo to people wanting to express some gnc avatar, though the glamor game could use some work. And it's surprising because in Japan "dondake" is a punchline. They don't feel the same way westerners do about this sort of thing. So this mmo is actually kind of progressive.

But I also still believe no male viera is just matsuno mulling it over. Bunny ears don't necessarily make a man effeminate, as shown by some p spectacular art.

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Matsuno has actually shown a lot of interest in male Viera. If they were what he wanted - going by his views and desires for male Viera that he has stated on twitter - a male Viera's body would certainly not be feminine in a sense. He imagines the male to have zero body fat and extremely lean with defined muscle development. In short Male Viera have a body type that would be similar to Basche fon Rosenburg from FF12. Basically a strong, muscular-though-emaciated build,

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Originally Posted by brasteir

This. You can already make some pretty effeminate men, you could also go the other way and make an androgynous looking woman. I always thought this was the friendliest mainstream mmo to people wanting to express some gnc avatar, though the glamor game could use some work. And it's surprising because in Japan "dondake" is a punchline. They don't feel the same way westerners do about this sort of thing. So this mmo is actually kind of progressive.

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Yeah, I'm over here thinking, we need new effeminate men? This game is already full of them! What do you mean?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

He don't look feminine or androginous, but a cross-dresser. An ugly cross-dresser.

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If you're breaking gender roles then cross-dressing shouldn't really be an issue /shrug

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, I'm over here thinking, we need new effeminate men? This game is already full of them! What do you mean?! :rolleyes:

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Yeah! The only races that can't make effeminate men are just Roegadyn and now Hrothgar. Everyone else can!

I have a friend where the character is technically female but did such a good job on it, plays as a feminine male.. I sometime get my pronouns reversed.

Faces for more androgynous and feminine males are already in-game yes. A more androgynous and/or feminine body shape is not. All the males(sans lalafell) are very masculine. Even a male Midlander with 0 muscle tone slider just looks like generic average guy.

That's the variety I want. We could use a small/petite build male. Just make one or two faces more masculine or so.

Not every male has to be big and macho. I don't understand why people are against more options just because its not their cup of tea. I personally don't care about Hrothgar since I won't be playing it, but I do like that we have a more beastly race now.

We just need a scrawny/frail male and a burly and buff female and then we have some good coverage across the board.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Faces for more androgynous and feminine males are already in-game yes. A more androgynous and/or feminine body shape is not. All the males(sans lalafell) are very masculine. Even a male Midlander with 0 muscle tone slider just looks like generic average guy.

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I agree with this 100%. In my opinion, we do not have androgynous body types aside from lalafell. Every other male character, at least to me, has a masculine body type.

This is all really subjective and it's pointless going back and forth with people since no one is going to change their mind. The people who feel like we don't have enough androgynous body types are not going to change their minds, and the people who think we don't have enough masculine body types won't change their minds. Just let people request what they want to request.

edit: hit post limit or I guess my posts are still recharging

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Tldr; a man that is soft in body, has minimal muscle development etc is not feminine or androgynous. Hardly anyone who looks at a body that is seen like this hardly thinks 'you have a body of a woman.'

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I want something slender with smaller biceps, smaller torso, etc... idk about the semantics calling it androgynous or not, it's just easier to call it that. I guess more of a kpop star body type or like omega m? I really don't know what else to call it.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.

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eeeh sure I don't care what people call it, I would just like a character with the traits you described. Slender.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

And this is why folks start going 'no thanks' and 'keep your gender politics out of this.' Because it's a big part to play in gender politics these days.

This wasn't an attempt to gril you or anything. Just thought it wise to speak up before someone starts screaming about 'stop with your agenda Senn, rabble rabble rabbble'

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Don't know why everything is about gender politics these days.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I agree with this 100%. In my opinion, we do not have androgynous body types aside from lalafell. Every other male character, at least to me, has a masculine body type.

This is all really subjective and it's pointless going back and forth with people since no one is going to change their mind. The people who feel like we don't have enough androgynous body types are not going to change their minds, and the people who think we don't have enough masculine body types won't change their minds. Just let people request what they want to request.

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I guess the argument of this is that the reverse of a masculine body type is a feminine one. An androgynous male has feminine traits in regards to their body - barring sexual organs and chest. It's very niche and very rare. You don't look at a thin man's body and think 'this is a woman'.

So when people say they want an androgynous body type its actually pretty complicated. Because andro isn't just 'body type' it's a multitude of things.

I'm going to be very clear because the more this is said the more I sigh... a pubescent body is where neither masculine traits nor feminine traits are showing themselves. This isn't to mean you want to play as a child. But this is why people flinch back when people say this. The most common type of body that is andro is that of a child/someone who hasn't gone through puberty or has developed a strong identity- or men who have minimal testosterone/gone through medical treatment to remove their sexual glands. The other side of this is when a man has feminine like traits and looks like a female but is actually masculine in personality etc and demeanour. This changes in regards to personality, sexuality etc.

Or the other case where a person has a situation where they have both sexual organs - usually the show feminine traits in regards to body. But this isn't considered Andro.

Not even Korean popstar men have a feminine body. If I saw one naked even with their private parts, face and etc hidden I could tell it was a male rather than a female.

Tldr; a man that is soft in body, has minimal muscle development etc is not feminine or androgynous. Hardly anyone who looks at a body that is seen like this hardly thinks 'you have a body of a woman.' or 'I could confuse your body for a woman.'

A pubescent and adolescent boy/young man or woman who hasn't developed - curves/and chest- does have an andro body considered in the medical community. This is the case with Viera children and it's the same with our own offspring.

Muscles and height do not = masculinity.
A beautiful man is not truly androgynous. Women who actually have some masculine traits such as a sharp jawline or a strong nose are extremely beautiful in a lot of scenarios. There's a reason why men cross-dressing can actually make overly beautiful women.

The closest body that is actually feminine or andro hilariously enough is Aura Males due to their curves.

Anyway, if you research androgynous men - they look closer to women. It's hardly a case where you can't tell, though it happens extremely rarely where someone is very much truthfully considered 'androgynous', and this is usually heightened by fashion, sexuality, gender and personality.

A bunch of feral men in the jungle do not spark the idea of androgynous. But it does spark the idea that with some love and care - that they can pass off as women with the correct amount of makeup/fashion etc. This is if they're similar to their female counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I want something slender with smaller biceps, smaller torso, etc... idk about the semantics calling it androgynous or not, it's just easier to call it that. I guess more of a kpop star body type or like omega m? I really don't know what else to call it.

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Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men. To a lot of them, it's fashion. Popular fashion. I actually know Korean's who get really irritated when this is brought up and when people talk about Kpop stars as being andro etc they just shake their heads. Especially the assumption that most attractive men who follow this fashion are andro or something.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.


Androgynous right now is starting to become a fashion statement to some people. In truth, it's extremely complex and is not something that is strictly regarding appearance.If you go to the wiki regarding it this is what they have to say; 'Androgyny may be expressed with regard to biological sex, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual identity. The different meanings of androgyny point to the complex interrelationship between aspects of sex, gender, and sexuality.' and 'As a form of gender expression, androgyny can be achieved through personal grooming or fashion. Androgynous gender expression has waxed and waned in popularity in different cultures and throughout history.'

And this is why folks start going 'no thanks' and 'keep your gender politics out of this.' Because it's a big part to play in gender politics these days.

This wasn't an attempt to gril you or anything. Just thought it wise to speak up before someone starts screaming about 'stop with your agenda Senn, rabble rabble rabbble'

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.

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A lot of this is subjective, but I wonder if some of this is more an effect of current characters postures and animations then the models themselves. Personally I find miqo'te and midlander males very much in the "beautiful man" vein based on their body type. They're not overly broad, they're lean, and have options for softer features. That said, the resting poses and emotes for them (for miqo'te) are kinda like a runway model getting ready to do a turn or curled forward like he's about ready to run.

One of the reasons I love playing as a female Roe is because their emotes and resting postures are the only female ones that aren't overly cutesy, sexy, or demure. They're athletic and confidant with their /pose being an awesome flex of her arm and flashing a grin. It's not any less feminine, just a different sort. If fem Roes had poses and emotes in the same style as female miqo'te or hyr, I'd likely be playing a male character.

Male models really don't have an equivalent. Male lalafel's are cute and elezan are elegant, but there's no race where the male animations are more reserved/demure then the female and in that regard I can understand the want for a different sort of visual masculinity represented in actual body language.

As a female Highlander who has a roedame alt, we already have burly, buff and fierce girls, do they not count, or is this the case of "No True Scotsman?", or do we just lack fur to be considered an actual race? (About my character I went for a bifauxnen look.)

This goes to having a more feminine male. You can make them on almost any race. I seen some pretty fragile cats and humans, is it because they're not small enough? It's been pointee out Elezen has dimensions similar to Omega-M but again, "No True Scotsman" applies. They don't have animal ears so I guess they don't count in this community.

Honestly, the people requesting this I feel are ERPers who don't care about the race or their lore, they just want bunny ears on a petite male to LARP with.