Please Square do not turn Lyna into Lyse 2.0

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

I agree with Hyo because I'm a writer and an artist. It actually makes me mad they can get so much wrong because of it.. - points to Zenos.- His first fight with us had so much promise but fails cause SE couldn't push the letter and have him in plot kill us.. making him a joke afterwards completely in my opinion. He's literally in plot just a level wall.

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Idk my dude, it makes perfect sense with how Zenos operates. Guy's been desperately looking for a worthy opponent and has been doing his best to cultivate that for a ridiculous amount of time. He put Yotsuyuu in charge of Doma specifically because he knew she would be cruel, unfair, and infuriating to people. He'd hoped that would piss the population off enough that they would rally and produce someone who could really fight him. The whole reason he got pissed at Yotsuyuu with that hair-yanking scene was because she pushed too far and outright broke the nation to the point of giving up and despairing instead of fighting back.

WoL is same spirit for him. He knows we're the famous Eikon slayer and all, we put up a better fight than most people but aren't on the level yet. He thinks we could be, so he spares us. Same way that he leaves some people alive as witnesses to him beheading massive numbers of soldiers and committing other atrocities. He wants someone to get pissed enough to git gud and give him a serious challenge.

If WoL was the only case of him holding back to try and cultivate an opponent I'd be with you, but he does this kind of thing repeatedly for a clear and understandable reason.

In a sense, Zenos reminds me of one of my fave characters of the Bleach series.

Kenpachi Zaraki
https://66.media.tumblr.com/8671f9cb...e0rbo1_400.gif

I think Zenos is an incredibly well-done antagonist. Is he likeable as a person? Perhaps if you like bad guys, but this guy has layers. He's the stereotypical monster created by a mixture of nature and nurture. He cares for nothing; he loves nothing - the only emotion Zenos hasn't had stomped out of him is a sensation that he's alive and he clings to it. As a prince, his life has more than likely been the game of politics - a game full of deceit and unneeded movements in the dark as people argue for anything and everything. Zenos hates this; he despises it. I believe he hates his position as a prince, yet is somewhat powerless to remove himself from him at the same time even if he wants to. And why would he even try to when this position gives him the 'sport' he needs?

The Warrior of Light is the first person he has come across who is on his 'level' of ferocity, though they aren't as 'evil' as him and have more emotions. The truth is that the Warrior of Darkness is a destructive force who's every waking day is killing someone or something, they're a nuke. Beyond this, the Warrior of Light is someone he can see himself in, perhaps a 'purer' version of what could have been. What should have been. Finally, I believe that Zenos puts us on this pedestal of a friend and enemy - heck in some scenarios it almost seems like unadulterated lust, without the sexual attraction and desire - because through the clarity of battle can see a person for what they truly are. Their resolve their personality and spirit. Zenos is very much attracted to the WoL/WoD and respects them. The line between enemy and friend is blurred for him - it's gone beyond that.

Zenos hunts the WoL because he needs to feel that emotion again, that connection and desire that only the WoL can provide. A part of me wants to believe that while the mother crystal has made the WoL her champion, Zenos is the opposite - he is the one with Zodiark's gift. It wouldn't surprise me if he were Zodiarks Avatar, honestly.

But what I can glean as a writer myself, that Zenos is the whole desire and life is hell-bent on feeling that emotion again that only one person in the entire world can give him. To the point, he will take back his Empire and make the WoL fight even harder - become an even greater driving force so the two can grow in skill, strength and then ultimately fight. Fighting is the only true way this man can show emotion.


As an add on; if I hate a character there is honestly a good reason for it. Either they're simply badly written and used for plot movement that isn't deployed well. An example of this is Preston Garvey from Fallout 4, in truth a decent character - but due to the way the games 'building' system was made - he's unlikeable because he was the character who kept giving you the most brain dead of tasks, to the point that he became a mem. When a character is associated with something that is extremely negative and irritating - such as making you walk to the Waking Sands repeatedly for something trivial - then the character itself is seen as negative, even if they're just a plot point.

Voice and personality also matter I've already stated in the past why I disliked Minfillia because of her voice and personality - but I also disliked Alphy for the same reasons. The difference is that Alphy redeemed himself and showed character development that was interesting and made you feel somewhat invested. He's well written. Minfillia, however, showed zero character development other than 'I am the voice piece' and honestly, puts her on a level with what we call a 'Mary Sue'. She's there to be a plot piece, a perfect plot piece. And thus, when characters are made to be like - they tend not to be well written.

Or the absolute, the character is such a well-written character and they're just genuinely unlikeable in regards to personality. This doesn't mean the character is badly written but the opposite. To the point that everything they do sparks some sort of revulsion and hate because that's what they were designed to be like. It's very rare that I come across a well-written character who is like this. When it does happen I applaud the writer.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

He cares for nothing; he loves nothing - the only emotion Zenos hasn't had stomped out of him is a sensation that he's alive and he clings to it.

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I mostly am with you on this stuff! The one spot I interpret differently is I legit thing Zenos was born without being able to empathize with others. There are people in the world like that. In-game maybe it just happened that way, maybe it's because of Ascian heritage, but I actually think especially with the level of boredom he has/no indication of trauma or longing for past emotions, it could be just that he's never really felt stuff from relationships before. He only cares about the WoL/D because of the function they serve as a fighter capable of beating him and delivering the adrenaline rush that comes from being near death. He probably is more interested in fighting than extreme stunts partly because it gives the illusion of connecting to another person when he otherwise can't, partly because he has trained his whole life to fight, is very good at it, and feels like his own skill has a major impact on the outcome. It's not a matter of chance, it's the sense of being on a mission and achieving something.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Idk my dude, it makes perfect sense with how Zenos operates. Guy's been desperately looking for a worthy opponent and has been doing his best to cultivate that for a ridiculous amount of time. He put Yotsuyuu in charge of Doma specifically because he knew she would be cruel, unfair, and infuriating to people. He'd hoped that would piss the population off enough that they would rally and produce someone who could really fight him. The whole reason he got pissed at Yotsuyuu with that hair-yanking scene was because she pushed too far and outright broke the nation to the point of giving up and despairing instead of fighting back.

WoL is same spirit for him. He knows we're the famous Eikon slayer and all, we put up a better fight than most people but aren't on the level yet. He thinks we could be, so he spares us. Same way that he leaves some people alive as witnesses to him beheading massive numbers of soldiers and committing other atrocities. He wants someone to get pissed enough to git gud and give him a serious challenge.

If WoL was the only case of him holding back to try and cultivate an opponent I'd be with you, but he does this kind of thing repeatedly for a clear and understandable reason.

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I hear you my guy.. but let me spin it a different way. It might just be me.. but wouldn't it be more powerful if he had killed us.. thought nothing of us at that point. But then we fight thur the lifestream, come back and then almost beat him. Him being shocked we as the WOL beat death and then nearly beat him the second time. Proving we are the WOL of legend? Instead it just feels like we were out leveled.... cause we were. THey show us his level in the fight killing all emotion. I know it was for gameplay purposes but STILL. On it's own I've kill tons of primals/gods.. to lose to some guy is insulting. I don't care if he's some awesome warrior... I'm the damn Warrior of LIGHT. To lose like that was like.. ugh. Least in my opinion. :C

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Maybe it’s weird to me because I’m a writer and villain fan? There are characters who I’ve looked at and just been like X NEEDS A KILLIN’ but I can still find other stuff they do funny or endearing. It doesn’t mean they don’t need a killin’ or aren’t legitimately horrifying to me, I just compartmentalize. Since it is fiction it’s easier to do for me.

Using Asahi as an example, I actually laughed at him a few times 1) because his yandere crush on Zenos is ridiculous and it is so clear in the cutscene where the miscommunication happened leading to it 2) his faces omfg. Who the hell makes faces like that? What is the little weirdo even doing? But at the same time as all that I can also find him legitimately horrific in how he treats Yotsuyuu and uses people overall.

Similarly, if I understand how and why a character works and the execution reads honest I generally don’t have an issue with them. I’ve been truly pissed at characters who were supposed to be heroes being deeply cruel or even sadistic without it ever being addressed as messed up in-narrative. That feels like a betrayal and it feels like lying. But I don’t think the FFXIV characters are guilty of that, so for me they’re fine. Alphinaud approaches in a minor way for me by being insensitive and self-absorbed at a point, but he gets better and is also a teenager. Teens are like that. So I cut him some slack.

Maybe I intellectualize it since again, writer. “Would I personally want to be buddies with this character” usually doesn’t come up as much for me.

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I can understand where you’re coming from. I’m a writer myself, but even while writing, I form emotional bonds with my characters. The irony of me hating the authors that kill off my favorite characters, I am also guilty of killing off characters in my own works. I can view it differently while writing, but it doesn’t lessen my emotional attachment when I’m in a reader’s position.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

I hear you my guy.. but let me spin it a different way. It might just be me.. but wouldn't it be more powerful if he had killed us.. thought nothing of us at that point. But then we fight thur the lifestream, come back and then almost beat him. Him being shocked we as the WOL beat death and then nearly beat him the second time. Proving we are the WOL of legend? Instead it just feels like we were out leveled.... cause we were. THey show us his level in the fight killing all emotion. I know it was for gameplay purposes but STILL. On it's on I've kill tons of primals/gods.. to lose to some guy is insulting. I don't care if he's some awesome warrior... I'm the damn Warrior of LIGHT. To lose like that was like.. ugh. LEast in my opinion. :C

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I get what ur sayin' my fella (;P), but tbh I kinda feel like if we'd been killed off for real it might've been cheap? I'm generally not a fan of resurrection stuff in fiction unless there's a massive cost. I know there have been a bunch of fake deaths so far already, whether it's "jk Nanamo was just sleeping" or "Minfilia's back yet again" and so on. I'm just not into it because imo it lowers the seriousness and finality of death. It'd be like if Ysayle or Haurchefant came back.

Also I find it kind of interesting that you keep explaining the situation in terms of shaping the story to make fights for the players at specific points. I actually think Zenos being the boss there was because narrative-wise it fit and deepened his characterization. If it hadn't they could have made someone else for the fight.

Different fandom, had somebody in the past try to argue one character was only featured in a film adaptation to be the love interest and get women watching. I know there is massive media history tied to that character, with the overall story focusing on tragedy and questions of accountability. Wouldn't be possible to pull off as well without the character in question. Is there a side-effect of getting ladies who like romance to watch? Sure, but it's not the main point. To me, the level boss bit is kind of like that.

For what it's worth, not trying to convert you to agreeing with me here. We have different ways of looking at this but doesn't mean either is strictly wrong. For me, I've found I prefer finding ways to like things I formerly didn't through new perspectives. Figure explaining allows that option in case you do too. There are characters I used to find super boring but appreciate now because a friend did that for me.

Also tbf I think WoL was totally pissed right along with you about losing to Zenos lol.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I can understand where you’re coming from. I’m a writer myself, but even while writing, I form emotional bonds with my characters. The irony of me hating the authors that kill off my favorite characters, I am also guilty of killing off characters in my own works. I can view it differently while writing, but it doesn’t lessen my emotional attachment when I’m in a reader’s position.

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Thanks man, and for what it's worth I'm with you on still caring about the characters! I've just sort of trained myself where it's very hard for me to turn writer-vision off if that makes sense. Can still cry over a character suffering or dying, still laugh or go holy shit or call a character some expletive or other. There's just an underlying affection that makes it tricky to hit true anger or hate. If I catch myself getting really pissed in a way that is deliberate and enhances the story, that just leaves me feeling impressed with the storyteller after and excited to see what happens next. If I know why a character is there and can understand how and why they work, even if they're not my favorite I can usually respect them.

It seems like most people connect with characters in a similar way that they would to real people. There are some they'd want to be friends with and some they would hate if they were stuck in a room with 'em. I just go by whether characters make sense and are interesting, usually.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Exo post facto doesn't deal with international / country / outside invasion. I'm pretty sure murder is still illegal within the empire and its territories. However, they turn a blind eye to crimes committed because they don't care about the normal riff-raff. They don't care about the non-Garleans.

Justice =/= law. They are not mutually exclusive.

Fordola committed war crimes, not crimes subjected to one particular place's laws.

I'm also speaking of morality, not laws (hence my 'things you and I would certainly call crimes').

Fordola chose to fight for an empire that wants to subjugate everyone under their rule and kill those that choose not to. At best, she has questionable morals.

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I'm speaking of morality too. Everyone is guilty within her storyline. But the story has forgotten about it.
Fordola chose to fight for the Empire because her own people were immoral monsters. She has questionable morals, along with the rest of subjugated Ala Mhigans who preyed on the unarmed and defenceless. When evil is used to stop evil, that rage and hatred will lead to new conflict. Fordola was betrayed by her own people and caused her to lose all hope. But again, the story has forgotten about this. The chickens have not come back to roost in this story.

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Originally Posted by disturbedcobra

In a sense, Zenos reminds me of one of my fave characters of the Bleach series.

Kenpachi Zaraki
https://66.media.tumblr.com/8671f9cb...e0rbo1_400.gif

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At least Kenpachi wasn't cruel and had a kind of rugged charm. He wasn't a Final Fantasy evil villain whom tend to be evil cliches. When Kenpachi said "Fighting together?" "IT AIN'T A LINE FOR YOU OR ME, ICHIGO!!", I could respect that. There was a debate of ideologies going on, with both sides being valid. Meanwhile Zenos is no role model and nothing he says can be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I get what ur sayin' my fella (;P), but tbh I kinda feel like if we'd been killed off for real it might've been cheap? I'm generally not a fan of resurrection stuff in fiction unless there's a massive cost. I know there have been a bunch of fake deaths so far already, whether it's "jk Nanamo was just sleeping" or "Minfilia's back yet again" and so on. I'm just not into it because imo it lowers the seriousness and finality of death. It'd be like if Ysayle or Haurchefant came back.

Also I find it kind of interesting that you keep explaining the situation in terms of shaping the story to make fights for the players at specific points. I actually think Zenos being the boss there was because narrative-wise it fit and deepened his characterization. If it hadn't they could have made someone else for the fight.

Different fandom, had somebody in the past try to argue one character was only featured in a film adaptation to be the love interest and get women watching. I know there is massive media history tied to that character, with the overall story focusing on tragedy and questions of accountability. Wouldn't be possible to pull off as well without the character in question. Is there a side-effect of getting ladies who like romance to watch? Sure, but it's not the main point. To me, the level boss bit is kind of like that.

For what it's worth, not trying to convert you to agreeing with me here. We have different ways of looking at this but doesn't mean either is strictly wrong. For me, I've found I prefer finding ways to like things I formerly didn't through new perspectives. Figure explaining allows that option in case you do too. There are characters I used to find super boring but appreciate now because a friend did that for me.

Also tbf I think WoL was totally pissed right along with you about losing to Zenos lol.

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Lol on the little intro rap we had going on. But after thinking about it I think you're correct. I still feel how I feel about it but you gave me something to think on and another point of view so I respect it. I'm actually replaying the MSQ of SB on an alt and I'm going to pay abit extra attention and see if I can see it another way. And the revive plot point can work but I see what you mean about it failing too often. Hell XIV has so many fake outs I don't blame you for not liking the idea. I still wish that fight had more of a punch but I think I'm looking at it too literally and point by point. So again I'm going to try to look at it from another view point. Thanks for the debate bro. lol

Personally i really liked Lyse, i don't understand the malcontent against her.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Honestly hating fictional characters is kind of weird to me.

Like non-final fantasy context, there have been a couple characters who destroyed all other characterization in nonsense ways that couldn't be ignored or rationalized. I've hated a few of those, but a fun kind of hate if that makes sense. The kind of hate where you shake your fist and curse their name when they appear.

But I mean... anything short of that, I can understand mild dislike or thinking potential's not being met. A little frustration. Hate just seems bizarre strong imo.

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Of course hate is a strong word but just like you can truly hate a living real human being, it really should not be surprising that people can do the same with fictional ones. There are characters in game that are written in a way that most people will feel hate for them, be it for their character or their deeds. Some people might just dislike certain character types/stereotypes or characteristics and if a character has too many of them it might turn into hate.

I mean imagine someone that you truly despised in real life. Maybe some kind of typical bully. Then suddenly you have that kind of similar person as a character in a game. Is it that surprising that one would hate such a character then?

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

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Whoop just saw this, but back atcha bro! :D Honestly I’ve been really enjoying the forums for exactly this kinda thing. Sometimes I’ll come out like X IS A THING and someone’ll be like actually lemme explain why it’s actually Y and it ends up being crazy interesting. Hope you have a blast replaying SB, and for what it’s worth I’m willing to bet we’ll get some crazy fights and stakes in ShB.

Also I get you on the revive plot point! There are a few cases where I’ve been like aight I can go with this, like for Nanamo the fallout was insane and I could believe the political machinations involved to make it happen. But figure this stuff needs to be employed with extreme care and some amount of cost generally haha. Otherwise you start getting questions about why an exception is only being made for just one character and not everyone. Plus reduced dramatic tension because audiences start going “lmao it’ll get retconned in a few weeks”.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Again might be weird of me tbh, but I have a pretty high threshold for hate? I can feel contempt, frustration, and anger more easily. Outright hate is something else.

XD I actually made peace with the bullies I encountered growing up haha. I was pretty snotty and judgmental of them too but assumed it didn’t count if I was in an “underdog” clique. At a certain point it occurred to me that I was being a jerk so I started talking to them like regular people. Didn’t have a problem after that. It actually meant a lot getting to know them in a different light.

The few cases I feel outright hate have to do with a combination of hypocrisy, dishonesty, and cruelty. I still understand those people, just find 'em repulsive. As long as characters in that vein are portrayed honestly, with the consequences and reality of the situation clear to see, I actually feel grateful. It’s interesting stuff and an important subject to examine imo. Would only go >:/ if the storyteller tried to endorse that mindset or hide the way it impacts others. Feel that way about most baddies.