Revelations from the Shadowbringers E3 Trailer

Is it just me or did our boi Alphinaud get taller???
Or am I seeing things because the camera is at a certain angle.


https://i.imgur.com/gPXL2qN.png

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Is it just me or did our boi Alphinaud get taller???
Or am I seeing things because the camera is at a certain angle.

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It's the camera angle; you can see he's about the same height as before in the benchmark and in other parts of the trailer.

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

It's the camera angle; you can see he's about the same height as before in the benchmark and in other parts of the trailer.

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Ah, thank you.

So, I'd been seeing the Ifrit was right all along! bit posted around, and I knew in ARR, at least, he specifically says he can't "smell the taint of another" upon us. I remembered ARR Ifrit dialogue being remarkably similar to 1.0 Ifrit dialogue, but it seems in some regards the passage of time has addled my mind, so here's a quick transcription of 1.0 Ifrit (with generic Companion text in brackets):

You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid. (Rocl's note: He's likely talking about us introducing ourselves as being members of The Path of the Twelve)
To which do you kneel, mortals?
[I kneel to no primal]
Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune.
[Protection? Who protects me now then, eh?]
Your blindness is born of ignorance. I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda...or Titan? Perchance...Leviathan?
[Who the hell are those guys?]
Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed.
There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked.
Yet the Paragon has entrated that I spare you, and so I shall—on one condition.
Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.
[What? You mean I can summon a primal!? But how?]

and 2.0:

Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One.
Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee...
The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number.
The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

It's weird he can't figure it out 2.0 before the fight, but during the fight, specifically the end he references the blessing of Light. Garuda tries to temper us too, fails, is confused for a minute and then after we rip a Crystal of Light out of her and complete our six set smells Hydaelyn. It's weird to me it takes both of these Primals a minute to figure it out....

Also fun to note Paragon becomes plural after the Calamity :P

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Originally Posted by Rocl

So, I'd been seeing the Ifrit was right all along! bit posted around, and I knew in ARR, at least, he specifically says he can't "smell the taint of another" upon us. I remembered ARR Ifrit dialogue being remarkably similar to 1.0 Ifrit dialogue, but it seems in some regards the passage of time has addled my mind, so here's a quick transcription of 1.0 Ifrit (with generic Companion text in brackets):

You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid. (Rocl's note: He's likely talking about us introducing ourselves as being members of The Path of the Twelve)
To which do you kneel, mortals?
[I kneel to no primal]
Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune.
[Protection? Who protects me now then, eh?]
Your blindness is born of ignorance. I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda...or Titan? Perchance...Leviathan?
[Who the hell are those guys?]
Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed.
There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked.
Yet the Paragon has entrated that I spare you, and so I shall—on one condition.
Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.
[What? You mean I can summon a primal!? But how?]

and 2.0:

Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One.
Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee...
The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number.
The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

It's weird he can't figure it out 2.0 before the fight, but during the fight, specifically the end he references the blessing of Light. Garuda tries to temper us too, fails, is confused for a minute and then after we rip a Crystal of Light out of her and complete our six set smells Hydaelyn. It's weird to me it takes both of these Primals a minute to figure it out....

Also fun to note Paragon becomes plural after the Calamity :P

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I wouldn't be surprised if they can't smell Hydaelyn's branding because it's indiscernible from the aetherial equivalent to background radiation. The completed Blessing of Light would probably amplify it enough for Garuda to tell.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

That was my hypothesis oh so long ago. We're effectively living on a Primal, and Primals aren't inherently "bad", just all the ones we've faced (who've been summoned via Ascian teachings...) are actively leeching off Hydaelyn. Granted, perhaps Hydaelyn also guzzles aether like the rest of the Primals, given that's basically the lore behind Rejoinings at this point... Still... I'm hesitant to kill the very embodiment of the very land we walk on... Hydaelyn seems self sufficient when you factor out Ascian meddling...

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I don't think Hydalyn guzzles the worlds aether, so much as she is the world's Aether. Hyd and Zodiark are the same beings, torn between letting life run its course and destroying it. The ascians who want the return of the one true god [hyd+zod] spread the seeds of primal summoning to weaken hydalyn. I posted this in discord thinking about it after watching the E3 vid. Glad someone else was thinking it too. xD

" I think the narrative of this expac is to push us away from hydalyn, but ultimately we are going to stand with hydalyn. I thought for a moment, what is hydalyn doing that makes her a better primal than the rest, then I realized hydalyn has never really manifested a form outside of borrowing minfilia and the crystal.

What if the world is hydalyn, manifest. We are her dream, like ffx. Primals being summoned weakens her ability to keep the world running.

Zodiark wants the destruction of the world [all 13 shards since hydalyn split them] so that hydalyn and him can merge back into one. Hydalyn, reverent of her creations, emboldened by their prayers refuses to wipe the slate. For the sake of her children she will keep their world alive, even as they deny her and drain her power for the protection of lesser gods."

My two cents: I suppose 'the will of the star' is actually the entity of both Hydaelyn and Zodiark combined.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

What does the imperial invasion that started in 4.5 have to do with anything we've seen in the trailers? Maybe I'm just not putting the pieces together. The way the MSQ ended and what we've seen in the trailers doesn't seem connected.

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To be accurate, 4.5 ends with a status quo. Nobody wins, nobody loses. Both parts keep their positions. Nothing is happening there unless there is a major change. Varis and Zenos withdrew to deal with the rumours in Garlemald and possibly prepare another assault. But the WoL has nothing more to do there. It's up to the Eorzean Alliance to handle things there for now.

I will wait until we get the full story because right now I still doubt that reveal. First should we really trust an ascian? Also doesnt that mean that they are tempered too? I am also a bit confused because we know that Answers at some part is from Hydaelyns view and there she is definitely not sounding bad. Since they often try to mislead us with such trailers (thinking certain people will die or that Urianger is a real traitor) I wait until its truly done in the story. But if that is true I am a bit disappointed..just another FF where we would have to fight any gods..

First time I have ever shouted out "I knew it!" Startled my boyfriend who was sleeping next to me, and I got a pillow to the face. But I called the whole "Mother Crystal was a primal" over a year ago...now to see how it actually plays out in context instead of just in a trailer. ;)

Now I remember what this setting really reminded me of! Spoiler following concerning the End of Fire Emblem 10 / the Tellius Saga, but it's a good comparison.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark remind me of Yune and Ashera from Fire Emblem 10. The seem to be at odds with each other, (Ashera) Hydaelyn sealed (Yune) Zodiark to rule her own way/form the world her own way, and initially, combined they are one entity, (Ashunera) the Will of the Star.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

So. F/GO Babylonia-style rebellion against Mom incoming? And we still don't know why the Ascians serve Zodiark and consider him the "one true god," if he too is a primal like Hydaelyn...

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I wonder how we would be even able to do this? Because if Solus is right and they are both primals...than that means that both sides are tempered, which also means that we cant go against her at all. (Maybe that is why Alphinaud looks a bit angry at the WoL in the trailer because we are sticking to her while the others might want to go against them)

In the end I just hope it makes sense..but I am 100% not a fan of this.

Edit: If Hydaelyn is a primal why not temper every single living being like Thordan did and just be done with the danger of getting other stuff summoned? That at least could hint that if she is one, she does not want to harm us much.

From the Trailer:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ER_unknown.png

Eden Summon in FF8:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...430/image0.png

http://www.pngall.com/wp-content/upl...minati-PNG.png

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

From the Trailer:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ER_unknown.png

Eden Summon in FF8:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...430/image0.png

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Yeah, with that comparison shot, it's definitely Eden-related. The twelve circles are not the Western Zodiac (which would imply Ivalice) or the Twelve Gods (which would imply the Source, and possibly Hydaelyn), but instead Roman numerals. Which only makes sense as a reference to the Eden summon animation.

(Or Garlean Legions, but there are supposed to be fourteen of them, and having them somehow be part of a huge planet-wide sigil is probably too far a plot development for most.)

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Now I remember what this setting really reminded me of! Spoiler following concerning the End of Fire Emblem 10 / the Tellius Saga, but it's a good comparison.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark remind me of Yune and Ashera from Fire Emblem 10. The seem to be at odds with each other, (Ashera) Hydaelyn sealed (Yune) Zodiark to rule her own way/form the world her own way, and initially, combined they are one entity, (Ashunera) the Will of the Star.

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But when does Zodiark appear as a small bird?

Ten characters

I'll quote Sylvanas

This....changes.... everything

I had some idea that circle of how stuff happen and why is somehow similar to FFX, in meaning of you have an endless loop and if you dont break it it will go on forever. Endless loop being here Zodiark and Hydaelyn. One thing that supported my idea is the fact that Ramuh actually remembers the life before Zodiark and Hydaelyn, means the life on the realm did exist even before them. That they are primals makes total sense. That would probably be grand finale of FFXIV, destroy both of them and break the circle.

Is there also gonna be a live letter or was it just this trailer?

With the scene of our mystery Crystal Tower person holding a copy of Heavensward (along with the other inner-shard travel hint in the trailer) I think it pretty much confirms the time travel "gimmick" that seems likely to set the stage for the story:

We can pretty-safely assume that the Crystal Tower in the First is the same as the one on the Source, but gone back in time from the future. G'raha Tia awoke to see that disaster had befallen the world and studied history (including the book Heavensward and other chronicles of the WoL) to narrow down history's turning point and a way to prevent the calamity. He then warped the Crystal Tower back through time and space over to the First before this critical junction in history, but since he probably couldn't tune the time travel precisely, he erred on the side of caution and overshot. Then, he just waited for the right moment to bring the WoL and Scions over.

Thanks to the temporal paradox (and the tower's existing powers), the two Crystal Towers can essentially serve as an interdimensional bridge between shards, which is what will allow us to freely teleport there and back. I assume he had to warp the Scions first so that people in our era would have the necessary hints so they could "tune" the Crystal Tower to be in alignment with the one over there and make the dimensional bridging work. Perhaps once this bridge is secured, they'll be able to warp the Scion bodies over to rejoin their souls already on the other side (since they appear to be in their own bodies while they're there).

So the history that needs to be unwritten (per all the trailers) isn't our past, but G'raha's past -- it's still our future. With this intervention, we'll be avoiding the calamity we otherwise would have walked into, and instead be able to learn the truth about Hydaelyn, Zodiark, the Ascians, and the new way forward -- whatever that will be.

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Originally Posted by zeylos

Is there also gonna be a live letter or was it just this trailer?

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Yes, there's a Live Letter on Friday afternoon (3pm PDT), but I'm not expecting to get too much more lore-related hints at that one. They mentioned it'd cover some of the crafting/gathering content/changes, so probably more things like that.

I know a lot of people are saying this changes everything, but honestly does it?

We have a few instances of primals saying we are claimed but that claim may not come in the form of tempering. We have the blessing of light which is distinct from the Echo. The blessing may make us claimed but it does not make us tempered - from which we may be immune thanks to the Echo.

Also keep in mind that what Solus is saying could lie anywhere on a sliding scale of truth from being an outright lie, any number of forms of half truths, or the absolute truth. Keep in mind though that even if it is an absolute truth, the more interesting part is not the fact but the reason for revealing it, and to a lesser extent how many people know about it. I'd hazard a guess that most ascians don't. Remember up until this point the ascians have always kept saying that their god is a god. That they are doing what they are doing because they need to bring him back, but they also say that Hydaelyn needs to be removed, implying that only Zodiark should remain. Something which makes very little sense regardless of the nature of either side.

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Originally Posted by Lozza

I know a lot of people are saying this changes everything, but honestly does it?

We have a few instances of primals saying we are claimed but that claim may not come in the form of tempering. We have the blessing of light which is distinct from the Echo. The blessing may make us claimed but it does not make us tempered - from which we may be immune thanks to the Echo.

Also keep in mind that what Solus is saying could lie anywhere on a sliding scale of truth from being an outright lie, any number of forms of half truths, or the absolute truth. Keep in mind though that even if it is an absolute truth, the more interesting part is not the fact but the reason for revealing it, and to a lesser extent how many people know about it. I'd hazard a guess that most ascians don't. Remember up until this point the ascians have always kept saying that their god is a god. That they are doing what they are doing because they need to bring him back, but they also say that Hydaelyn needs to be removed, implying that only Zodiark should remain. Something which makes very little sense regardless of the nature of either side.

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Actual question because I can't remember: When they say they want to revive their god do they ever NAME Zodiark during those points, or do they say their "one, true god"?

Because some of those cave paintings imply that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were once one being.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Actual question because I can't remember: When they say they want to revive their god do they ever NAME Zodiark during those points, or do they say their "one, true god"?

Because some of those cave paintings imply that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were once one being.

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I think Lahabrea might.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Actual question because I can't remember: When they say they want to revive their god do they ever NAME Zodiark during those points, or do they say their "one, true god"?

Because some of those cave paintings imply that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were once one being.

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You have a good point about that. I'm fairly sure they usually refer to "the one true god", and "my god". However they also talk about Hydaelyn's "complete excision" which suggests that they are not talking about a combining of the two. We know from Hydaelyn herself that she and Zodiark used to be "one" but the suggested context I believe is in the sense of they existed together as a form of balance not necessarily in the one body. Though ultimately this could be read either way.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Actual question because I can't remember: When they say they want to revive their god do they ever NAME Zodiark during those points, or do they say their "one, true god"?

Because some of those cave paintings imply that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were once one being.

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Scene with Lahabrea and the Ascians at the end of 2.0 first time we hear his name. 2.5 Nabriales mentions it in passing, first time our character hears his name. 3.0 Final Dungeon ARF, Igeyhorm directly calls their god Lord Zodiark before us.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

Yes, there's a Live Letter on Friday afternoon (3pm PDT), but I'm not expecting to get too much more lore-related hints at that one. They mentioned it'd cover some of the crafting/gathering content/changes, so probably more things like that.

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I think they'll go over graphic stuff (costumes, new areas, mounts, minions and things like that) But I kinda expect the live letter not to give us anything exciting

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Originally Posted by Lozza

I know a lot of people are saying this changes everything, but honestly does it?

We have a few instances of primals saying we are claimed but that claim may not come in the form of tempering. We have the blessing of light which is distinct from the Echo. The blessing may make us claimed but it does not make us tempered - from which we may be immune thanks to the Echo.

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True also Midgardsormr was able to block the blessing. Another thing is if whose who received Hydaelyn's blessing have been tempered with then how did Ysayle managed to become a 'Primal' herself ? There is also the Sahagin Priest who had the power of the Echo and still help summon Leviathan.

Personally I think there still too much unknown and we have yet to get Zodiark's version of the story and not just the Ascians'

Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals doesn’t necessarily change anything in a practical sense, it just opens the door to them not being all-powerful/immortal beings, and paves the way to the eventual demise of one or both of them.

Ramuh showed us that primals can be benevolent, and that tempering isn’t intentional.
Perhaps the Echo does still prevent us being tempered, and Hydaelyn choses those with the Echo because they won’t be tempered by her light.
How else could we ditch the title of WoL and become a WoD? If we were tempered, we wouldn’t be able to make that choice.

It’s all in the details.

Ascians never lied to the WoL and co. tho you cant say "Never Trust Ascians". the only thing Ascians didnt do is give details.

as far as the Big Reveal goes.....

*everything* we have been doing in game since the start has constantly challenged our idea of 'what constitutes a primal'. just going to the next level now is all.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

as far as the Big Reveal goes.....

*everything* we have been doing in game since the start has constantly challenged our idea of 'what constitutes a primal'. just going to the next level now is all.

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We could be primals ourselves :D People crying out for heroes, and abundance of aether. Each WoL a mini-primal!

So... since ancient times people have revered the day and the night... and this made manifest the primals Hydaelyn and Zodiark as the embodiments of light and dark? And an era of permanent day such as what The First is experiencing gave rise to belief that the Hydaelyn god had cast out Zodiark? And ascians are basically people who were tempered by primal Zodiark?

This has my mind racing and adds so many more questions if Hydalen and Zodiark are indeed primals(/doubt due to coming from Solus):s
-What purpose were they summoned for?
-Who in the pre sundered world wanted a being like Zodiark and Hydalen?
-Why do the ascians only want Hydalen removed from existance?
-Are ascians tempered? as Hydalen doesn't seem to install that selfsame devotion into people i am doubtful we are
-Was Zodiark's crime tempering which could be seen as destroying life?
-How could Hydalen maintain herself since WoLs/Zodiac braves only seem to appear close to a calamity so knowledge of her is incredibly limited especially with civilization resets after a calamity?
-Who gave the land the name Hydalen?
-What are the twelve? they haven't manifested despite goodness knows how many people worship them
-Could Hydalen be preventing the twelve from being summoned because they would siphon too much devotion from herself?

These are just a few i have now :s

Though i do not think Hydalen will be something we fight unless it is by her will to be killed, if she is a primal she has resisted mass tempering for millenia, allowed life to go on how they would want at risk to herself, actively fighting against Zodiark to preserve as many shards as possible which weaken her, entered pacts with aliens again at risk to herself, if the original idea for Hydalen was to preserve life no matter what i could buy the primal thing better but i doubt that so much at this stage and even then who in their sane mind create a being like Zodiark with enough power to be close to Hydalen.

Went and got as many screenies of the murals and it looks like the ones with Zodiark and Hydalen do depict what we have been told so far about them:

https://i.imgflip.com/336rbv.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/336rm1.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/336soz.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/336ss5.jpg


These are clearly separate and more recent(100 years ago) sin eaters were definitely with the flood and not before Minfilia stopped it:

https://i.imgflip.com/336rq2.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/336rtv.jpg

Really hard to tell who is attacking Y'shtola i wanna say Gauis or the WoL/WoD due to the tatters seen at bottom of coat:

https://i.imgflip.com/336s9k.jpg

Definitely Emet-Selch with that Zelara symbol:

https://i.imgflip.com/336sel.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

As I said in a different thread, it's an Ascian saying that and taking one of them at their word is asinine at best.

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It's the word of an Ascian, yes.. but the Ascians have never actually lied to us, or anyone else. It's always been with a bias to their side, but they've not told a single actual lie that i know of. Even Lahabrea's tirade about the imbalance turned out to be true.

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Originally Posted by Lozza

I know a lot of people are saying this changes everything, but honestly does it?

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After thinking it through a bit more, it would imo only change something if we find out that Hydaelyn is taking massive amount of aether from us thus we need to finish her to stop that. Otherwise I also dont see how it changes it much. We are able to do our own things, the WoDs were able to take the Ascians side for a bit and we dont act so single minded like other tempered people.

Heck we dont even know if she is summoned right now or its just her mind in the lifestream. In the end this should not let us switch side because Zodiarc would be one too and at least unlike him and his Ascians, Hydaelyn gave us free reign and seemingly does care about her children.

I mean if she wanted complete reign and she can temper like a normal primal does, why not temper everyone? This way you would also stop the ascians plans.

I've said this elsewhere, but I don't know that I buy the trailer reveal, especially with tension brewing between Elidibus and Solus already. I think Solus has been making a huge powerplay and is going to backstab Elidibus, use us to take out the "primals", and do what he's been feeding to Varis: make the Garlean master race Varis ranted about in 4.5 with Solus as an immortal god-emperor at the top of it all with no pesky Hydaelyn or Zodiark to stop him. The WoL assumes Elidibus' role as emmissary for Zodiark and works with Minifilia in the same role for Hydaelyn to defend them and keep the balance from here on.

Plus, other primals don't have that whole 'need for balance' thing going on either.

I'm not saying them being primals is out of the question, just that Solus is literally the only Ascian we've met that I don't trust to speak the truth. If it were Elidibus saying it, sure, 100% I'm on board. But not Solus.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

It's the word of an Ascian, yes.. but the Ascians have never actually lied to us, or anyone else. It's always been with a bias to their side, but they've not told a single actual lie that i know of. Even Lahabrea's tirade about the imbalance turned out to be true.

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Ahh but there is the rub of it all. This Ascian may not have ever told a lie to us, since we have never met him before but he has lied to an ENTIRE country/race. He also ruled over it and fostered fear and hatred among those people. I mean this is Emperor Solus of Garlemald. Hell he's even lied about who he really was for 60 years more or less?

Second, of all with all the Ascians we've ever met maybe the one who had given us an inkling of truth was trying to lead us around like an ass driven carriage with him sitting in the seat dangling a carrot in front of our noses. The others were just straight up trying to kill us.

It's possible that the trailer is deliberately misleading and the scene where Solus says "the most ancient primals" is not the same scene as Zodiark and Hydaelyn conversation, that he's talking about something else there but the trailer is cut to make it look like he means ZOdiark and Hydaelyn. Though I actually kind of hope not. I really prefer this to them being almighty gods.

Presuming that cave painting of Zodiark and Hydaelyn is from before the Sundering, it should exist on the Source too. I wonder where it is? Maybe it's under Silvertear Lake?

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

With the scene of our mystery Crystal Tower person holding a copy of Heavensward (along with the other inner-shard travel hint in the trailer) I think it pretty much confirms the time travel "gimmick" that seems likely to set the stage for the story:

We can pretty-safely assume that the Crystal Tower in the First is the same as the one on the Source, but gone back in time from the future. G'raha Tia awoke to see that disaster had befallen the world and studied history (including the book Heavensward and other chronicles of the WoL) to narrow down history's turning point and a way to prevent the calamity. He then warped the Crystal Tower back through time and space over to the First before this critical junction in history, but since he probably couldn't tune the time travel precisely, he erred on the side of caution and overshot. Then, he just waited for the right moment to bring the WoL and Scions over.

Thanks to the temporal paradox (and the tower's existing powers), the two Crystal Towers can essentially serve as an interdimensional bridge between shards, which is what will allow us to freely teleport there and back. I assume he had to warp the Scions first so that people in our era would have the necessary hints so they could "tune" the Crystal Tower to be in alignment with the one over there and make the dimensional bridging work. Perhaps once this bridge is secured, they'll be able to warp the Scion bodies over to rejoin their souls already on the other side (since they appear to be in their own bodies while they're there).

So the history that needs to be unwritten (per all the trailers) isn't our past, but G'raha's past -- it's still our future. With this intervention, we'll be avoiding the calamity we otherwise would have walked into, and instead be able to learn the truth about Hydaelyn, Zodiark, the Ascians, and the new way forward -- whatever that will be.




Yes, there's a Live Letter on Friday afternoon (3pm PDT), but I'm not expecting to get too much more lore-related hints at that one. They mentioned it'd cover some of the crafting/gathering content/changes, so probably more things like that.

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Guess in the end both theory of the First being the setting and Time travel being related to the story maybe true now considering that was a discussion here in lore section before they revealed where 5.0 will go last year.

Now I am curious if we may see visions of that future and what went wrong rather than just hearing words about it.