Make Viera and Hrothgar non-binary / gender-neutral?

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Originally Posted by Nuna

If all genders are pretend, then why should we take them this seriously?

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I think that's the point they were trying to make, even irl its all about whether someone wishes to respect a persons request to be referred to as a specific gender vs just using a default response one would normally respond with had they 0 knowledge. Though i could have read it wrong as well.

Just at a functioning game level, it's unlikely that they could make non-binary characters in the existing structure of this game, even if they wanted to. The races are essentially templates with two slots each for male and female characters. You can put an intended-to-be-non-binary character in one of those slots if you like, but the broader game will still refer to the "slot designation" and apply male or female rules about things like gear permissions, pronouns, and other miscellaneous script details that change according to your gender.

It's simple really, you have males and females. Despite what you or your character looks like you are one or the other (if youre a female that looks like a man you are still female etc...) This pretend non-binary rubbish that others want in-games is what is ruining future games with needless political stances, literally nobody cares, there's two genders, always has been leave it as is. Hopefully male viera and female hrothgar comes in the future so the races feel more complete together.

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Originally Posted by Kaiche

It's simple really, you have males and females. Despite what you or your character looks like you are one or the other (if youre a female that looks like a man you are still female etc...) This pretend non-binary rubbish that others want in-games is what is ruining future games with needless political stances, literally nobody cares, there's two genders, always has been leave it as is. Hopefully male viera and female hrothgar comes in the future so the races feel more complete together.

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The best and Most Balanced and rational Comment here.
5 Stars, I'd buy that for a Dollar

But you can't do "gender neutral" looking. It's an illusion to believe you can.

Some will expect some kind of "feminine" look, some others will want some kind of manly look. Worst, the way people feel what is feminine or manly may vary.

You want "neutral" look, it can't be with humain apparence, you will need some kind of... tree or alien. But some people will still want human apparence.

No, thank you.

Let's not put 'gender politics' into the game.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

No, thank you.

Let's not put 'gender politics' into the game.

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traditional gender roles are also gender politics mate

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

traditional gender roles are also gender politics mate

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It's only been recently there's this huge political agenda in this 'gender neutral' thing.

I play a game to have fun and escape reality. Not to have real life politics shoved into my face.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

It's only been recently there's this huge political agenda in this 'gender neutral' thing.

I play a game to have fun and escape reality. Not to have real life politics shoved into my face.

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how many gender neutral ppl do you meet daily to want to escape them lmao

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

how many gender neutral ppl do you meet daily to want to escape them lmao

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None- because there's no such thing. Just a badge people throw on themselves to feel special.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

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But since when did any politician decide for people? It's pretty recent and mainly coming from USA to believe so. Before it was a social choice by the majority as an average not as an hostility towards minorities (hostility came afterwards because of some missunderstanding issue).

The majority can't talk for the minority? The minority can't talk for the majority either.

So now, please stop trying to put your american political progressive whims into a worldwide broadcasted game. Apart if you want to provoke what you want to make disappear : grudge against LGBTQ community. Most of them don't ask this current political hysteria.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

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not american and never brought up politicians?

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

how many gender neutral ppl do you meet daily to want to escape them lmao

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My best friend is actually 'gender neutral'. And yes I do also have gay friends if we want to go that route as well.

And gues what? They are the best, and they don't feel to need to remind me every minute of the day that they are 'neutral' or gay'. They also don't feel to need to put pressure on politics and to demand that male/female restrooms need to be removed because it's an insult to them and be replaced with 1 'neutral' restroom instead (> just to give an example).

I don't go around shouting that I'm hetero every minute of the day either.

Again, I play a game to have fun, not to deal with real life politics/issues. Surprising huh?

Looks like someone took what I said in jest in another thread and ran with it lol

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not to derail the conversation, but as a Japanese playing a game published and made in Japan, I have to point out that the country is far, far from the progressive nature most of the NA is. Japan doesn't recognize same sex marriages, and it even makes transgender people get sterilized (have surgery to remove the organs born with and then have organs that look like the gender they identify with) before they are legally allowed to get a name change/gender change papers. I don't mean to rain on people's parade, but JPN is very much more about conformity to societal norms and I highly, highly doubt anything like this would ever be allowed. The same thing goes for the non-gendered (sp) pronouns -- there are already soooo many tons of different pronouns we have to use depending on someone's age, rank, relationship to us, etc. that adding new ones even in the game wouldn't make sense and would just confuse people (at least confuse many non-English speakers, I'd think). To quote Yoshida in his recent article interview today: "This is a difficult era"

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Thank you. That's exacly what I was thinking about, reading this. FFXIV is played all around the world, and something like this may not be appreciated and accepted everywhere.

That being said, I'm not completely against it, I just would'nt care, really. I'd enjoy the game regardless, but I don't think its likely to happen.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

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I'm European and mostly despise both politics and activists from all kind (and from whatever they come or the camp they side for). I will not justify myself further. This forum is not the place for.

I want a ternary (however you write it) race.
Give me three genders to choose between.

Can people please stop conflating sexuality and gender. Please and thank you.

:)This is awesome. This would be perfect, actually. Thank you, OP!

Just make them agender and give us the ability to make them flat chested or not flat chested. Bam. Problem solved. Gender doesn't have to be defined at the character creation level anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mayon

:)This is awesome. This would be perfect, actually. Thank you, OP!

Just make them agender and give us the ability to make them flat chested or not flat chested. Bam. Problem solved. Gender doesn't have to be defined at the character creation level anyway.

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How about no? I want my titties.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Rather than having female Viera and male Hrothgar, why not just keep the existing body models, but give us variety in facial design and chest size?

Let people define their character's gender for themselves instead of defining it for them.
Don't list the gender for either race.
Have some masculine-esque facial choices for Viera
And some feminine-esque facial choices for Hrothgar
And add hair options that allow players to make male-looking or female-looking characters of each race.

This solves the "lack of resources" problem.
But also gives players the flexibility to play as whatever gender or identity they prefer.

It might require a bit of tweaking gear-wise (e.g. chests for viera), but at least it will give people more flexibility in how they play the game.

More flexibility and choice is always good (not SJW propaganda).

And lore can be updated to have both races as gender neutral (males and females are culturally similar in body-type and clothing).
And/or to have viera/hrothgar quests about non-binary life choices (in a respectful way).

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How about we don't and say we did?

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Originally Posted by Wynn_Storm

I'm sorry that people don't share the same opinion and view point as you do. Also the community overall is very good. You are entering a heated topic so of course there is going to be some choice words thrown around. I think you are being unnecessarily sensitive about this. People are trying to insert themselves and their view points into the game and onto others. Its selfish overall.

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It's very empathetic of you to call someone's existence a "view point" and to call someone sensitive when they talk about being harassed or bullied for their gender. You must live a very privileged life to be able to separate yourself from things like this so easily.

It's funny that people get so offended at the very mention of gender options that don't fit into the binary. Even if it doesn't replace any others and is merely an additional choice, people absolutely lose their minds because they've been spoon fed this Way Of Being when it comes to gender that they refuse to deviate from because they're all wannabe 70-year-old right-wingers that still think the earth is flat too.

Sorry, but nonbinary people exist. You can refuse to acknowledge them as people all you want, but that doesn't delete them from reality. Get over it and get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

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Well, for a part the problems comes from vocabulary and... gender apparence at first sight. You can't blame people to consider a man as a man or a woman as a woman at first sight because the person they meet looks to have this gender at first sight. The trouble appears after between gender (in mind), gender (in apparence), sex and finally sexuality.

The first reaction, because of the common average majority (at least in apparence), is to consider the whole as one thing.

I will talk as a straight hetero who feel without any doubt as a male who love women anf feel attracted by women as far as my memory can go back : nonbinary (or gay or lesbains etc.) is hard to imagine. Not because people refuse it but because we simply don't and can't feel things that way. It is NOT education, I FEEL hetero as far as my memory can go back.

The missunderstanding can (and do) come from both side. Some current activists since three years sound totally hysterical as if they have lost their mind, they don't ask some kind of... normality, they ask for some kind of revenge against hetero world. If people over-react blame the activists too.

You know, if people start to consider they fight, it means they have enemies, the problem they don't understand, is this behavior can lead them to rise grudge against them and then, they will create new enemies. And that's the reason why I absolutly categorically refuse to follow all kind of activists claimings.

While we're at it why don't we pull a New York City and include all of the following:

Bi-gendered

Cross-Dresser

Drag Queen

Drag King

Femme Queen

Female-to-Male

FTM

Gender Bender

Pangender

Transexual/Transsexual

Trans Person

Woman

Man

Butch

Two-Spirit

Trans

Agender

Third Sex

Gender Fluid

Non-Binary Transgender

Androgyne

Gender Gifted

Gender Blender

Femme

Person of Transgender Experience

Androgynous


/roll eyes

Just give us male and female options of each race and allow the men to wear dresses and the women to wear pants.

We don't need a billion genders for two sexes. We need 2 sexes with more customization options on the gear we wear. That's it.

A non-binary race option would certainly be pretty neat

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Originally Posted by Doozer

It's very empathetic of you to call someone's existence a "view point" and to call someone sensitive when they talk about being harassed or bullied for their gender. You must live a very privileged life to be able to separate yourself from things like this so easily.

It's funny that people get so offended at the very mention of gender options that don't fit into the binary. Even if it doesn't replace any others and is merely an additional choice, people absolutely lose their minds because they've been spoon fed this Way Of Being when it comes to gender that they refuse to deviate from because they're all wannabe 70-year-old right-wingers that still think the earth is flat too.

Sorry, but nonbinary people exist. You can refuse to acknowledge them as people all you want, but that doesn't delete them from reality. Get over it and get used to it.

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I don’t see anyone refusing to acknowledge the non-binary so much as they don’t want to deal with it. This is a video game after all and thus not real. If someone has a pronoun they like to be called in rl that’s fine, but stop shoving it in people’s face in a dungeon or raid run. I happen to be a gay male, does it mean I have to go screaming that in ul dah? No because it doesn’t matter, because my rl isn’t inserted into a mmo character. This whole “I need to be treated extra special because of x” is getting ridiculous.

A fine idea, but a tecnical mess to execute, you'd have to adjust everything, from skeletons, character models, armor/glamor models to animations and even more we can't dream about.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

traditional gender roles are also gender politics mate

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in the context of the game, it's "can wear gear that shows nipples" or "can not shows nipples but can have cleavage", which means non-binary / gender-neutral can't exist in this game.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

in the context of the game, it's "can wear gear that shows nipples" or "can not shows nipples but can have cleavage", which means non-binary / gender-neutral can't exist in this game.

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let me show my nipples then coward

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

let me show my nipples then coward

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you know this game is released in multiple countries with many different sets of laws right?

there's zero chance they'd ever do this, thank god.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

from ff wiki: "Final Fantasy XIV gives exposition to the elusive male viera, who are virtually identical at birth to females; only upon maturing they are able to be identified gender wise."

So there is lore saying they are almost identical.
Can make up lore saying that some males choose to dress/live as "females" to remain with them. And others choose to be more masculine and leave.

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Read again what you write yourself " upon maturing they are able to be identified gender wise "

We do not play baby character but matured one. Do not choose to read only what you want. A male is a male, a female is a female.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

from ff wiki: "Final Fantasy XIV gives exposition to the elusive male viera, who are virtually identical at birth to females; only upon maturing they are able to be identified gender wise."

So there is lore saying they are almost identical.
Can make up lore saying that some males choose to dress/live as "females" to remain with them. And others choose to be more masculine and leave.

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I think this is actually countered by something you brought up later.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

The article I linked explains that the way science looks at sex is different from they way society looks at sex.
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It talks about how sexual characteristics can potentially change throughout one's lifetime (e.g. ppl with 5-alpha reductase deficiency often display as stereotypically female until puberty)

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I'd previously seen a documentary segment about this, and it's exactly what came to mind when the lore information about Viera brought up that they're indistinguishable until puberty. Suppose a race-wide (or highly common) variation of this condition, with the result that the vast majority of children are apparently female, but the adults are still clearly male and female.

That, essentially, is what has already happened in reality. This is a text article based on the documentary I'd watched - basically, there's a village where it's common enough that it's not surprising when it happens.

So, whether the lore writers were aware of it or not, there's actually a genuine scientific base for Viera males not being identifiable as children, without requiring that they still appear feminine as adults.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not to derail the conversation, but as a Japanese playing a game published and made in Japan, I have to point out that the country is far, far from the progressive nature most of the NA is. Japan doesn't recognize same sex marriages, and it even makes transgender people get sterilized (have surgery to remove the organs born with and then have organs that look like the gender they identify with) before they are legally allowed to get a name change/gender change papers. I don't mean to rain on people's parade, but JPN is very much more about conformity to societal norms and I highly, highly doubt anything like this would ever be allowed. The same thing goes for the non-gendered (sp) pronouns -- there are already soooo many tons of different pronouns we have to use depending on someone's age, rank, relationship to us, etc. that adding new ones even in the game wouldn't make sense and would just confuse people (at least confuse many non-English speakers, I'd think). To quote Yoshida in his recent article interview today: "This is a difficult era"

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Honestly, this is a big reason why I want to move to Japan.

Despite denying it is SJW propaganda, you can tell that it is SJW propaganda by the way that it is.
(^o^)