An interview with Yoshida and his thoughts on healers in 5.0

I'm more worried now that they're going to completely overhaul Healers.

I'm worried because SE doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to reworking jobs (Bowmage anyone?) and we all know they don't do player testing.

So we're essentially going to Beta test healers once ShB drops. Why am I confident in saying this?

Because when SB was shown, all the healers raised concerns about WHM Lilies and SCH MP costs and lack of AoE. Nothing changed and both were released and criticisms were shown to be right.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I'm also concerned about this. I suspect that whm will be getting shields + utility and SCH better heals. Given that the pet has been a sticking point I suspect it's use to be significantly reduced or simply turned into a buff instrument that no longer heals.

If the homogenizing removes too much class identity I don't know how I'll feel about it.

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Or they're going to take the PVP route and make it summoned when you get enough Aetherflow, an activated skill.

As much as I don't like it, it does make sense. Makes you actually have to think about it.

Not mad about no new healer.
Though it may be because when I do play one it's WHM.
They need to fix WHM way more than they need to add another poorly balanced healer.
lilies have been fundamentally broken since SB started, and the role of a pure healer with no other utility just doesn't fit when both of the other healers can perform just fine in all content while offering loads of buffs or other utility.
Even Yoshi is flat out admitting that the healer roles don't work.

I'm skeptical as well. If they screw up again we'll pay the price again whole expansion for a design mistake (Lillies).

In a sense imagine if they never screwed up lilies in the first place, we could be talking about a different subject like the next healer in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Nathanial

I need to see these Scholar buffs cause the potency is still the same on all the skills since i left 6 months ago. not to mention fairy potency is not equal to scholars. embrace and adlo say they have nearly the same potency but embrace heals for less than 50% that of adlo. 250 potency is not half of 300. someone really need to check this math thoroughly.

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Only Indom and Excog got potency buffs at the beginning of SB.

Fairy was nerfed when they moved it's skills to instant during Sigmascape. Rouse is no longer applicable for other fairy skills except for Embrace. Also Fey Illum doesn't affect Whispering Dawn, but they bumped it's base potency up slightly to account for the loss of that and Rouse. Still, it was a nerf in-exchange for the most responsive fairy we've ever had.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

SCH MP costs are signficantly higher - you'd have a point if SCH spells would cost as little as the other two healing jobs. A WHM with 45 sec assize does hardly run OOM, a SCH with a 45 sec Aetherflow still can. There is no "free" healing provided by the fairy. (also remember that they had to reduce manacosts in 4.05 or 4.1 - because the situation was that bad - even though "free healing" AND a newly added lucid dreaming).

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To be fair, that's only because they had jacked up MP costs while halving your native MP rewards just before the expansion was released. What followed amounted to little more than a revert.

(Personally, I would have rather gone the other way, keeping MP costs high but granting a bit more reliable power to high-cost spells in exchange for requiring Energy Drain to be weaved in over time.

Ideally, I'd also nerf DT to the likeness of Bane, give it an AF cost rather than a CD, and make it a shared hotbar slot with Bane. Crit double-shield removed. Give ET virtually no animation-lock/time and cause next Spell to be instant-cast with bonus critical strike chance based on receiving player's missing %HP, again at AF cost, and push it up to level 30 as to no longer need Swiftcast. Rouse now costs AF but enhances all manners of pet effectiveness, and pets may now perform single-target variations of their HoT/Haste abilities over their GCDs (at low but stacking durations), giving space for your own direct healing and allowing Selene to be relevant again. In balance, Arcanists (and by association SMN and SCH) would then generate a charge of Aetherflow every 20 seconds, to a maximum of 2/3/4/5/6 over levels 20-60, with any AF spell giving back some MP but Energy Drain giving back far more -- enough to maintain MP off just about 1 in 3 to 1 in 6 AFs being spent on Energy Drain. Quickened Aetherflow trait remains. Miasma regains its Heavy effect. Voila, you no longer need Role Actions, and can therefore trim 4-11 buttons from your bars.

Been reading through just about every post here. Some common themes I see:

"WHM shouldn't change, AST should be reworked!"
"SCH is too powerful, but untouchable because its a healing class that actually works well"
"I have no hope for WHM/Healers, same excuse etc."

I've played WHM since 2.0... WHM's progression through the years is like watching a Wolf become an abused two-legged dog left for dead in a closet until it started to stink too much and you just hose it off a little.

I'm pretty sure the first one or two balance adjustments to WHM were nerfs to Holy. Took away a fang or two, fine. NBD, BLM got hit with something similar too.

Then they flayed an ear at some point and took Protect away from us; made that universal. Kinda hurts, but okay. Fair is fair... I guess.

Then, well, Stoneskin is too powerful, better reduce that (naturally 10%, was 18% with WHM Graniteskin, took that away in HW). And, boy, that Stoneskin skill sure is useless now eh? No one uses it anymore! Better just get rid of it altogether.

Oh, and while we're at it WHM. *Leg rip* We need to borrow Regen, Holy, Medica, Presence of Mind, Aero, and... well everything really. Because we got a new puppy! And he needs toys to play with. You can share, right? Oh don't pout. Tell ya what, you can keep.... Fluid Aura and Repose, okay? Now please, get in the closet we need all the space we can get for the new arrival.

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*Closet door creeps open* Hey Buddy! Oof, that kinda smells.... Now I know what you're thinking, but we haven't forgotten about you... in fact, we're gonna take Shroud of Saints, Divine Seal, aaaaand Cleric Stance, and improve them for you! Wow! These skills are so good now, right? Actually, *leg rip* it'd be a shame for you to keep them all to yourself, wouldn't it. Oh, don't be so selfish, WHM. Let's learn to share and give them to everyone! Mkay? Perfect!

Oooooh, it's okay baby don't worry! You're still special! And guess what? We took everyone out for ice cream earlier and we scraped some old flowers off our sho- I mean, we got some potpourii for you! We'll line the whole closet with it. And look! It's your new toy Divine Benison and Plenary Indulgence. DB here looks exactly like that Graniteskin thing you used to have; it might be a knock-off, though, we can't tell. And we haven't quite figured out how Plenary Indulgence works, but I'm sure you'll find a use for it. Such a good girl. Now off you go, back in the closet, okay?

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*Sniff sniff...* OMG WHAT IS THAT SMELL!? Oh, WHM, it's you... uh, SCH! SCH, did you let WHM out of the closet!? What do you mean she seemed unhappy? Oh gosh, that smell is absolutely putrid. SCH, get your brother AST over here and help me hose her off. Clearly the flowers and the closet aren't working anymore. We'll have to figure something else out...


Unfortunately, like the dog in this dramatization, I'm still implicitly hopeful that my owner cares about me. Yoshi acknowledging that "Pure Healer" is a broken idea give's me a faint glimmer of hope. But I have to prop my limp body against the closet door and press my eye to the keyhole to see it.

But changing the other two classes wont help. WHM has been abused and ripped apart so much that there's almost nothing left of it. WHM is the class that needs fixing. Unless you plan on gutting AST completely, in which case, well now you've just created a different abused dog.

If WHM doesn't get the fabulous, spectacular makeover it deserves... I'll likely switch to something else and never heal again in this game.

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Originally Posted by technole

Whereas they were still whining about Adlo and Succor "costing too much", and of course that didn't change at all.

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Aldoquium had its MP Cost reduced in 4.1, succor also had its MP cost reduced along with it having the barrier effect increased from 100% to 150% the amount of HP restored.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...04942848db9539 Look at the patch notes for 4.1 if you don't believe me.

Aldo used to almost cost as much MP as a raise, this was before we had a plethora of MP from high ilevel gear as well.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I'm more worried now that they're going to completely overhaul Healers.

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I'm more worried that they are going to present it as a complete overhaul, and the changes will just be the logical extension of the changes to the battle system. (Healers will get zero special consideration while they completely overhaul DRK.) DRK's issues were acknowledged a while back. Aside from saying "the healer meta is stuck and we've had issues balancing it" they haven't really acknowledged any issues aside from the one where (apparently) WHM needs to be easier.

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Originally Posted by Lozza

I'm more worried that they are going to present it as a complete overhaul, and the changes will just be the logical extension of the changes to the battle system. (Healers will get zero special consideration while they completely overhaul DRK.) DRK's issues were acknowledged a while back. Aside from saying "the healer meta is stuck and we've had issues balancing it" they haven't really acknowledged any issues aside from the one where (apparently) WHM needs to be easier.

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From the comments made it seems to be more than that, Yoshi P said that he hates the concept of "pure healer and "barrier healer" and that it is really limiting to the design process. I think that is the area that he wants to overhaul, and I can see why that will take another expansion to accomplish. I'm glad he said it because at least he is aware of the underlying design problem of healers.

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Originally Posted by Lozza

I'm more worried that they are going to present it as a complete overhaul, and the changes will just be the logical extension of the changes to the battle system. (Healers will get zero special consideration while they completely overhaul DRK.) DRK's issues were acknowledged a while back. Aside from saying "the healer meta is stuck and we've had issues balancing it" they haven't really acknowledged any issues aside from the one where (apparently) WHM needs to be easier.

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What's worse is you know they are going to hype it up all the way till May and if they raise those expectations too high especially after the blow the healing community just had with not getting a new job, manure will hit the fan. I am expecting a giant manure maelstorm come May and I'm not even thinking it's going to be just the healers up in arms. Though, with my life I have learned "Expect the worst, hope for the best" is the best mind set for me, so keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Even if it's a solution, I'am not very confident about breaking the distinction between pure healer and barrier healer.
I mean, if that happen, the advantages to bring one healer rather than another will be less noticeable.
And if one healer can do both, so what about two healers together ? Will they be too strong ? Will their shields could be stacked ?

I don't know if it would work, but I think they shouldn't throw away what healers have gone through all these years from 2.0 to 4.5.
It worked well during Realm Reborn, and for me, they need to look back during this golden age.
Indeed, WHM was a powerful pure healer because SCH hadn't so much of this part and vice-versa.
And let's not forget the old Cleric Stance which helped to maintain that. By removing/changing it, I think it has weakened the whole state of healing.

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If they aren't looking into entirely new ways for some of our current jobs to heal in a primary sense. (EX: making AST the HoT healer) then we are very likely going to get 1 steaming turd with 3 different names in 5.0. We need more ways to have healing done so that the effects can stack. Large ticking, short duration regens and long duration, smaller tick regens so that the healing per second curbs the incoming damage enough to get larger heals off, for example, might be enough to get WHM/AST to work. Assuming they get rid of some of the global cooldown issues.

Even if it's a solution, I'am not very confident about breaking the distinction between pure healer and barrier healer.
I mean, if that happen, the advantages to bring one healer rather than another will be less noticeable.
And if one healer can do both, so what about two healers together ? Will they be too strong ? Will their shields could be stacked ?

I don't know if it would work, but I think they shouldn't throw away what healers have gone through all these years from 2.0 to 4.5.
It worked well during Realm Reborn, and for me, they need to look back during this golden age.
Indeed, WHM was a powerful pure healer because SCH hadn't so much of this part and vice-versa.
And let's not forget the old Cleric Stance which helped to maintain that. By removing/changing it, I think it has weakened the whole state of healing.

I'm all for breaking shield vs regen healer duality.
I'd give each healer access to regens and shields (well SCH has both, AST has to choose but Collective Unconscious gives both regardless of the sect. Only WHM has Benison but no party wide shield), and have each job focus about its own identity. AST and SCH are fine by now, because their kit flow into their jobs.
WHM needs a good kick and start all over to get to the other two's level.

I just don't want "balance" to be brought by super nerfing AST and SCH because they don't want WHM to be more challenging in its design.

Honestly, I think that "Shield vs Regen" healing can be easily addressed with semi-permeable shields.

So that it's not super strong to have a fat shield that can literally just ignore mechanics because you rolled a Critlo on a WAR in Defiance + Covalescence + Largesse and then spread the shield to the whole party...

But instead, it works by reducing damage incoming over time akin to how Regen works at restoring health over time.

Since, having different mechanics between how the healers work is a good thing. Since it means that they can all have a distinct feel to them *Cough*AST basically copying WHM's kit*Cough*

The main thing though is to try and address gameplay so that multiple types of healing can have similar impact, rather than keep designing around telegraphed burst which heavily favours upfront mitigation (Shields) as opposed to reactive healing (HoTs/Direct Heals)

If they don't address this gameplay issue, then it's just going to devolve into homogenizing all the healers so they have the same kit and then their only difference ending up being their DPS values (Both personal and party based)... At which point, you may as well just make "Healers" actual DPS jobs that just have a handful of oGCD's to deal with mechanics >.>

Just give whm more ways to utilize ogcd you have only 2 spells that can do that atm and make the cast time from stone and aero 3 shorter like the recast time, and buff the dps to compensate for the Astro dmg and cards. Like there is a reason it’s called wheelchair job. You are a worse blm with the same unmobility. And healer balancing my ass they don’t even listening to feedback. When people told them whm whas bad with Lily’s and all the other skills they still did it. Fix the no competition sch has with shields so you see more Astro/whm and fix the fairy problem. It’s a free Regen that has priority and doesn’t die and cost mana just some management from it own skills. Isn’t freaking rocket science and a lot of whm mains give you tons off good feedback.

Yeah... I wish we at least had some moderator or something just to assure us that some of the concerns we raised have been brought to the dev's attention. I mean, sure the devs will still ignore it, but at least we'd know they've been heard. I guess that would be somewhat comforting... maybe... WTB role leads... =p

I agree with Yoshida in this case. The current healers need redesign - not adding a forth one which will further the mess. The argument that why not redesign the current healers and add the forth one do not hold, because they contradict each other. By not adding the new healer, they can finally redesign the current healers and make them better. I agree with this logic.

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Originally Posted by ksuyen

I agree with Yoshida in this case. The current healers need redesign - not adding a forth one which will further the mess. The argument that why not redesign the current healers and add the forth one do not hold, because they contradict each other. By not adding the new healer, they can finally redesign the current healers and make them better. I agree with this logic.

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Again, it's until you look at their track record with healers in general in the past and you'll understand why healers are so worried about that very thing. Will they finally get their act together this time? Only time will tell, but... from the little they've said we do still have cause for worry. There's also an argument that could be made that they could have made a new, completely different healer balanced to 5.0 content. Then balanced the other 3 around that healer. This way the players not only get a new job to play, but they can also play all 4 healers and give feedback based on their playing experience with the jumbled mess of 3 and the new balanced to 5.0 content one.

I'm not saying Yoshi didn't make a logical choice here, but......... "balance" has never left a good taste in healer's mouths ever since 3.0. We're skeptical, we kind of feel left out and forgotten about especially since we were promised balance in 4.X too, so we don't exactly feel confident that we won't get shafted this time too. Now, I'll grant you. We could be handed awesome and wonderful changes in May. If we are, I'll be happy and excited. But until then, I'm going to remain skeptical.

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Originally Posted by ksuyen

I agree with Yoshida in this case. The current healers need redesign - not adding a forth one which will further the mess. The argument that why not redesign the current healers and add the forth one do not hold, because they contradict each other. By not adding the new healer, they can finally redesign the current healers and make them better. I agree with this logic.

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The rationale would sit better if its use tended to proceed actual balance in MMOs, instead of a further lack of it. Somehow MMOs manage to somehow worsen balance shortly after refusing to continue new designs into a given role, more often than not. And thus far XIV's leading towards that trend.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Honestly, I think that "Shield vs Regen" healing can be easily addressed with semi-permeable shields.

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So like, it absorbs up to x% of incoming damage based on the difference between shield HP and incoming damage? If the shield has more HP than you have left, 100% mitigation until consumed. If half as much, 50% mitigation. On a full HP tank, with the shield amounting to maybe 15% by comparison, well... up to 15% mitigation until consumed. Can mostly save lives only so well as direct healing that way, but it does allow for flexible precasting.

We're making WHM easier so we've added a shield, esuna, and an enmity reduction element to assize. We've reduced the cooldown on assize to 5 seconds. Please look forward to spamming this one move over and over for the easiest healing ever.

Thank you.

If they could add the blue eyes of Minfillia to the WHM like a Trance, it would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Coltvoyance

We're making WHM easier so we've added a shield, esuna, and an enmity reduction element to assize. We've reduced the cooldown on assize to 5 seconds. Please look forward to spamming this one move over and over for the easiest healing ever.

Thank you.

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We felt Cleric Stance was overly missed, but didn't want to return its annoyances and just end up back at a problematic 'square one'.

So, you can now turn Cleric Stance off to passively heal one wounded target for 300 potency per second or turn it on to passively damage an enemy for 150 potency per second. There are no other buttons apart from Role Actions, as these seemed the most fulfilling use of one's hotkeys for all healers in all occasions -- otherwise, we wouldn't have made them!

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Honestly, I think that "Shield vs Regen" healing can be easily addressed with semi-permeable shields.

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This seems like a really interesting solution. Maybe if the Galvanized Icon looked more like the Aetherflow Icon with Roman Numerals to denote 3 seperate uses. So for example you would use Succor and everyone gets a Shield that reduces damage from the next attack by 10% using up it's first charge allowing the same reduction to the next 2 attacks. The initial Heal could be tuned up to compensate for the loss of direct shielding and any reapplication would refresh the stacks. This would allow this type of percentage based shield to layer with a potency based shield like we have currently so shields from an Astro wouldn't be overwritten. Adlo would be 15% reduction with double the damage reduction from a crit. The fairy healing would make more sense and Sacred Soil could see more usage as the Scholar becomes more of a reduction specialist.