Revelations from Keynote II

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Originally Posted by SannaR

At least we can't die because of eating a fish. XD

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No, but I'd be careful about the wine that might come with a fish meal ;)

Regarding Matoya, it could be parsed as soul transfer into a currently uninhabited body, given what we learnt in 4.5. I think Y'shtola's history, both recent and as far back as ARR, gives us reason to suspect her soul has been more taxed than most.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Thanks for posting this; I was going to ask about it.

Specifically, is the person on the top right anyone we know? I can't recall who they're supposed to be off the top of my head.

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Possibly this Emet-Selch in a mutated and possessed G'raha Tia. The gemini/twin aspect often coincides with monstrous mutations and fusions in FF games. I find the choice of colourations in the robes equally interesting, as it's the three major types of magic (black, white and red, their fusion), but probably not something an Ascian would care much about (as these are taxonomies - albeit objective in nature - devised by mortals), hence possibly stylistic in choice, or explained by something else.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Probably just some Ascian.

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Doubt it's just "some" Ascian if it's on the front of the expansion cover and with such an unusually contorted host and outfit. Likelier than not a Paragon of the Source.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

not keynote related, but this was written on the high seraph Ultima figure:

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Interesting. The similarities between Ultima's upper body, with the crossed, golden arms, and Zodiark's, in the same position and the same changes in colouration as arm goes to hand, make me wonder if she (or her worshippers) did not glimpse Hydaelyn and imbue herself with the same form, which would fit her heretical vibe from XII. The statue even has the same halo-type crown.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm not sure on the specifics, but the scene with Solus and Varis seemed to show Solus getting an idea. He's watching Varis decide to deploy Black Rose and musing over how "dear grandson" is making the "right" kinds of decisions and coming up with justifications that'll impress the people to boot. Then he thinks about Black Rose a little deeper ... it kills silently ... it moves like a shadow. Then he considers the fate of The First, and how ever since the Flood of Light began over there, it's been causing effects over here. Mulling that over for half a second he wonders "What if they could synergize?" and then he excitedly walks away like, "Varis, I leave the rest to you! I'm off to the First!" It's hard to imagine that is not gonna be 50% (at least) of 4.5 going sideways.

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That's a good guess and it hadn't occurred to me that he may have meant the First. It's still vague, what exactly he means by it, but I am guessing it comes down to what Black Rose actually is - this quest line is interesting in this regard, but it still refers to a diluted form of it being ingested. The fact that this induces madness/a frenzy could be specific to how it's being consumed or the species consuming it, but it suggest it is messing with the neurological system in some way, or alternatively, one's aether, since the mind is associated with the soul in this setting.

A possibility is that the aetheric depletion these floods cause weakens the bond between the soul and body further, making it an even more efficient killer, but the way he described it made me think more of pouring gasoline on a fire.

Alternately, Emet-Selch is in Solus like we currently assume, and G'raha has traveled back in time from The Future™ to warn us of things to come (getting a bit crystally in the process), after waking up and realizing that we done broke it. This could have something to do with the calamity Salina foresaw and her true plan for the Crystal Tower, or it could be him trying to undo the mistake of thinking he needed to use the Tower to travel further down the timeline when really he just needed to join the Warrior of Light's band of exceedingly competent merry men. Since G'raha's arc was loosely patterned off of Desch from FFIII, "coming back to save us when no one else can, after we thought he was gone forever" would be a perfectly valid card to play without invalidating any established references.

Or he could even do all that and then get bodyjacked by Elidibus after he leaves Zenos, because the last heir to the Royal Allagan blood is almost certainly too sweet a host to pass up.

Of course, we technically don't know who that is, but the facial structure and voice from the future stuff going on have suddenly made G'raha Tia the Occam's Razor answer to the question of who is under that hood.

I'm currently hoping they keep the time travel to a minimum. I'm still holding out on the hope that any talk of "let expanse contract, let eon become instant", "history must be changed" etc. is referring to how Zodiark perceives time, seeing it as a compressed singularity, and therefore able to foresee how current choices will affect future paths.

With that said, it could be any of the Paragons, including Elidibus, as he'd make a tempting host for any of them. Elidibus was my first guess, but they've also integrated the gemini theme into some monstrosities in past FFs. I think the thing with Solus is that it really is just an assumption that he is Emet-Selch; there is nothing specific tying the two together, other than the fact that Emet-Selch as an esper is also associated with death (via its dark analogue, Zalera) and this vaguely ties into the Black Rose train of thought. At any rate, if it's G'raha it'd explain the crystalline corruption, at least, and as you say it could have interesting plot direction for the tower. I won't deny that he could well be the missing link in all this echoing, mysterious voice stuff, although I am still leaning to it being Zodiark.

Makes me wonder if the body-jacking could occur precisely to put the Crystal Tower to some such use as you described.

I think the biggest revelation is that SE europe breaks technology often

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Alternately, Emet-Selch is in Solus like we currently assume, and G'raha has traveled back in time from The Future™ to warn us of things to come (getting a bit crystally in the process), after waking up and realizing that we done broke it.

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If it really does turn out to be G'raha, it's going to be a fantastic "called it" moment for me. I'll have to find the post I made suggesting it during the 4.4 discussion...

I don't think it's necessary for him to travel back from the Future to our time though - would make just as much sense (and put us in less danger of setting off paradoxes) if we go forward in time to where he emerged from the tower.

Any variation is possible at this point, of course.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

B-besides, we've already seen Urianger unmasked during our final showdown with the Warriors of Darkness!

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For all of about four scenes before he was straight back to the cowl and goggles. I was only just starting to get used to the fact that yes that's actually him after wondering what he looked like prettymuch the entire time up until then.

(And similar thing with Estinien. I was really quite distracted throughout Heavensward that I had no idea what he actually looks like under the helmet.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If it really does turn out to be G'raha, it's going to be a fantastic "called it" moment for me. I'll have to find the post I made suggesting it during the 4.4 discussion...

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And I'll get to go back to the comment I made to Moose (years ago) about wanting Gaius and G'raha in the same expansion.

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Originally Posted by Haxaan

The hooded character on the top right has a very Male Miqo resemblence. I know there aren't any ears, but just saying that the rounder face and the lips and nose especially looks just like one of the Male Miqo face base options.

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Hooded Y'shtola from the trailer didn't have visible ears when her hood was up, so...

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Originally Posted by Arya_Leviathan

Is it just me or does Titania resemble Alisaie a lot?

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Nope, not just you. That was the first thing I thought as well. Given that Titania is important to the plot, and we're becoming Warriors of Darkness, maybe in this expansion we have to encourage the summoning of Primals, but in order to control them we use incarnate summoning (like Shiva, Thordan, and Tsukuyomi). Maybe Alisaie becomes Titania, and Alphinaud becomes the Nu Mou's Primal. After all, we didn't see either of them in the trailer.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The thing is... it's implied the Allagan manikins are soulless but flesh-and-blood beings. The YoRHa units, debatably, are the exact opposite - mechanical beings with genuine souls.

The most advanced Allagan machina we've seen aren't anywhere near as advanced as the YoRHa units. We do have some mammets that, arguably, have souls (Gigi the Goldsmith and "Vivi" from Hildibrand's 3.x story), but they're even less advanced. The YoRHa units are physically indistinguishable from ordinary humans.

That said, if I had to wager a guess now I would have to agree that Allag will probably have something to do with it (again...).

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The alternative is, if we are indeed going to the First Shard in Shadobringers (though I hope we aren't), then perhaps the new 24-man is set on another shard.

They were a little coy on the topic of Titania's nature.

That aside, I wonder if the pixie zone will be set on the First. I'm leaning towards "no", because I think any such content mostly be dealt with via instanced content, however it's certainly the most ethereal and "otherwordly" zone so far. Which of course means nothing, per se. The architecture is reminiscent of Gridania, so they may tie it into that region's lore, maybe linking it to some cultural cross-pollination of some sort.

Now, since Dalmasca has been heavily hinted at in Orbonne, I think at least a few (1-2) zones will be there, and the Rak'tika Greatwood near it. If they stick with the pattern of 6 zones per expansion, and it's not on the First, I'm guessing at a zone in the southern provinces of Ilsabard. I wouldn't rule out Sharlayan yet, but I've a feeling they may reserve it and even the rest of Ilsabard (and maybe the moon if it plays no role for now) for 6.0, particularly as there's some hints at possible Ascian influence there - it'd be an obvious point of interest to them due to its heavy magic prowess and as the origin of most Scions. Fits in with the timing for the wrap up of the Zodiark/Hydaelyn arc.

Regarding G'raha, he makes the most sense to me for that character. I had thought Fordola, due to the tattoos and facial structure, but the body is too clearly male and the face is basically the same as he's got, plus the "tattoos" differ. The real questions will be who's in him (assuming there is but the robes suggest it is likely - the unusual colouration could be hinting at Elidibus), what caused the corruption and what role is he playing. We'll probably need to wait till 4.57 to get a better indicator.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So I kinda maybe, sorta, prior to Lore Book 2, had started coming up with a back story involving YoRHa in XIV that would have involved the First Astral Era civilization. Then I finally got to read it and realized the interpretation I had of the First Astral Era being about as technological as Allagans were ended up being wrong (I'm not even quite sure how I got the notion.)

So Allagans it has to be if it isn't more recent, so long as XIV YoRHa were made on Hydaelyn.

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Shouldn't that be lore book 1? Since book 2 didn't have anything on past eras (at least not that far back).

Titania does kinda looks like the twins don't they?
If we are going to the future then maybe Titania is how an idealized version of one of them looks like.

But with all the sheer weirdness we are seeing in the previews alone i think we might be in for a "reality break" scenario rather than a time travel plot. The reason they still haven't given us a map is because each zone is in one of the shards. That would certainly explain a Nier raid (which just made me 300% more hyped for the expansion).

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Originally Posted by Guiballad

Titania does kinda looks like the twins don't they?
If we are going to the future then maybe Titania is how an idealized version of one of them looks like.

But with all the sheer weirdness we are seeing in the previews alone i think we might be in for a "reality break" scenario rather than a time travel plot. The reason they still haven't given us a map is because each zone is in one of the shards. That would certainly explain a Nier raid (which just made me 300% more hyped for the expansion).

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Could be where they're going with it. Not a bad suggestion, actually. They'll devote one or two to Dalmasca, plus we're getting the Rak'tika Greatwood, but for the rest (they may not even stop at 6), if they want to reserve Ilsabard for 6.0, they could certainly do that, and bring in some realm-hopping. It'd tie in with some of the fortunes from the current seasonal event.

I'd be more partial to Shard hopping than time travel, even with an awareness of the hints towards such a story arc... if they limited any time travel to one character coming back from the future, I'd be ok with it. It's one of those things that's best left on the shelf unless it really enhances the story narrative in some way.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Could be where they're going with it. Not a bad suggestion, actually. They'll devote one or two to Dalmasca, plus we're getting the Rak'tika Greatwood, but for the rest (they may not even stop at 6), if they want to reserve Ilsabard for 6.0, they could certainly do that, and bring in some realm-hopping. It'd tie in with some of the fortunes from the current seasonal event.

I'd be more partial to Shard hopping than time travel, even with an awareness of the hints towards such a story arc... if they limited any time travel to one character coming back from the future, I'd be ok with it. It's one of those things that's best left on the shelf unless it really enhances the story narrative in some way.

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The team did a really good job on the Alexander storyline so i think they could handle a time travel plot quite nicely if they set some REALLY hard rules for it. But honestly i feel like time travel is always tricky to include in any story and can lead to some really frustrating plot holes or bad conclusions.
Breaking some in-universe rules to allow us to shard hop, even in a limited fashion, would give the team a lot of liberty to do some cool stuff without threatening much of the game's internal consistency.

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Originally Posted by DarthSanguine

Shouldn't that be lore book 1? Since book 2 didn't have anything on past eras (at least not that far back).

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The first lore book has more direct info, but doesn't actually say much about the technological level they would have been at by the end of the First Astral Era into the Second Umbral, just that the Second Umbral/Astral didn't advance that much as they believed many of the advances made during the First Astral helped lead to their undoing.

The Second book doesn't really have much yes, but one little line at the start of the weapons section is what got me. "The image of a cyclop's cudgel may provide a glimpse at the type of simple weaponry prevalent during the First Astral Era."

On time travel: SE in general has been mostly good when it comes to the Stable Time Loop type of time travel. Any time travel for ShadowBringers seems like it wouldn't work as a loop though, and thats where things get messy unless we are never allowed to go back to the present.

On the topic of time travel...

There's some potential for very messy ways to make it work.

Such as if we and G'raha Tia go back in time to visit another shard (Such as, say, the First) before it was engulfed by light in order to prevent said engulfing in light, thereby changing the future of the shard and thus our past (Since the Source wouldn't be affected by the First being engulfed, in addition to the WoD's we met no longer having a reason to visit us), then it would mean that we wouldn't have to then go back in time to do this thus creating an alternate timeline.

So there's one timeline where we fail to prevent the destruction of the First where we go back in time to fix it which we can travel between at will and one where we prevented the destruction of the First and thus don't have to time travel, which becomes the new canon timeline when the story progresses forwards.

Basically, allowing the retconning of events, but with a reasonable explanation that we are involved with. Potentially also allowing memories of the events to be kept for those involved, while others would be none the wiser (If those involved ended up taking their places in the "New" timeline)

With of course, the multiple timelines allowing us to freely move between the "Past" and the "Present" with ease, because we're really just shifting between the timelines.

Also, it would be funny to start causing a hassle for the WoD's we met while they're the WoL's and we're the invading WoD's see how they like it! xD

P.S. I spend too much time thinking about time travel...

Time travel on another shard is how I could foresee it working, but I'd want them to introduce some plot element, if they were to go down that route, that made it prohibitively difficult to accomplish, so that it remains a "limited use" plot device. Still, we're missing many elements of the puzzle, which will most likely appear in 4.57. I can't wait for late March.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Time travel on another shard is how I could foresee it working, but I'd want them to introduce some plot element, if they were to go down that route, that made it prohibitively difficult to accomplish, so that it remains a "limited use" plot device. Still, we're missing many elements of the puzzle, which will most likely appear in 4.57. I can't wait for late March.

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Well, I imagine that it would take an extraordinarily high amount of Aether to accomplish such a feat.

Not to mention, limitations within who and how it can work.

For example, why the chosen few scions? Why are their souls gone from their bodies? The answer to those questions being a factor in why they wouldn't be able to just pull this plot device out whenever they felt like it.

I'm iffy on time travel as a plot element because mechanically going to these places can't function any differently than changing zones currently does. And say we jump ahead in time, why is Rebuild Ishgard a thing? Shouldn't they have dealt with that themselves by then? It also rubs time bubble issues right in your face constantly because it can't take away any content and they've been careful to limit the points where we do cross it.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

The first lore book has more direct info, but doesn't actually say much about the technological level they would have been at by the end of the First Astral Era into the Second Umbral, just that the Second Umbral/Astral didn't advance that much as they believed many of the advances made during the First Astral helped lead to their undoing.

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Actually it did. It said that people didn't discover how to make stuff out of iron until the 2nd Astral Era, meaning the 1st was Bronze Age at it's end.

I'm going to guess that it won't necessarily be time travel(though it would be fitting, since the pixies and Titania were in XI during Wings of the Goddess), just based on the cinematic dialogue. A forest that's confirmed to be Rak'tika is engulfed in an inferno, and Matoy'shtola says that she'll hold the line until "Our friend," presumably the WoL/WoD, returns. Despite this, the footage we have of Rak'tika is blooming with life and serene to the point that parts remind me of TERA's environments. In the older footage, Derplander is walking aimlessly as just an archer before receiving what seems to be an echo vision of events from 1.0 to 4.57, and his demeanor changes immediately.

My flimsy assumption is that Minifilia will return to the Source and, with her and Matoya, the Scions will have their souls pulled back, with Matoya possibly using her own soul to bolster Y'Shtola. Come 5.0, we cobble together a way to travel to the First(souljacking our counterpart) with the goal of stopping the Flood of Light, which is now leaking to the Source, entrusting the Scions to hold the line until we finish our job.

I'm just guessing at this point. I have to think it's either shard travel or some weird time crap like 8(which would be appropriate, considering they based Gunbreaker on Squall) or even 13-2(string theory, changing the future to correct the past). The problem is that I don't see where the new zones would fit in what is an apocalyptic scenario on both shards.

Yoshida pointed out how the wooden fort resembles the burning location in the trailer but looked already burned down in the exploration trailer and screenshots. Considering the disrepair but lack of smoldering and smoke, and conversely the lack regrowth into it from the woods around it it can't be too long after the fire is cleared that we get there. The fire seems to have been contained to that settlement.

I think at this point in time, there's several key points in the plot which could have a number of different interpretations, which I'll recap with my own speculative views.

1. The true nature of Zodiark/Hydaelyn. You can divide this into a number of possibilities:
a) Everything we've been told about Zodiark is true and he willingly sought to overpower Hydaelyn; b) it was true that he was growing in power but that this was the natural result of how he was constituted in some way (fits with how he's portrayed in some other FFs); c) the High Seraph in Orbonne is emulating a little more than just Hydaelyn's appearance (an assumption of mine, but the stance of the body with the crossed arms, attachment to crystals and the halo-like crown on the statue, all of which are analogous to Zodiark's depictions, suggest something is going on here) but her demeanour, too; d) some other scenario.

I don't think these are equally probable, and of these I'm inclined to believe b), and that Hydaelyn has had good reason for remaining silent on what is going on with the floods of Light and chosen to deal with them only now via Minfilia. I have a hunch that unless the two Crystals are rejoined (albeit not by the methods the Ascians are pursuing), the floods will be recurring and eventually unstoppable, until all worlds fall to them, and so we will have to find a way to deal with this Gordian knot that neither the Crystals nor the Ascians thus far have been able to resolve.


2. The motivations and plans of Elidibus. This hinges strongly, IMO, on Zodiark's nature, and how much he himself knows. I like the hypothesis that the Ascian Overlords are individuals who, though perhaps were WoLs, caught on to the possibility of the light/dark imbalance and, with Zodiark's "dormant" state, came to the conclusion that they needed to become WoDs, only to later transcend into Ascians. They possibly did not realise they could go overboard with spreading darkness, until the 13th fell, and at that point Elidibus was tasked with reining them in.

He had intended for the WoDs to deal with matters on the Source, but that's not an option, so I think his plotline could be leaning to him taking direct action to rectify the imbalance, even though he would not typically be so hostile to the WoL, as to allow the Source to fall to the imbalance would jeopardise Zodiark's resurrection permanently, along with any other ill effects it would have. What I think has made matters more urgent is that the Light being "absorbed" by Minfilia isn't just going into Hydaelyn but permeating the entirety of the Source. I don't think he had really foreseen this possibility. It also ties in with what Moose mentioned about what Solus may be planning re the Black Rose. His role will thus depend on what steps the Zodiark plotline would require to resolve, and could cast him in the role of enemy, ally or someone we're forced to cooperate with for a time. I think if we do fight him, one will "die" but neither will perish, as a result of the Echo, and we'll see the catalyst for the transition to the WoD.

3. Solus/the other Overlords. Is he really on board with everything Elidibus is doing? Or will he turn the moment that he sees Elidibus is working with the WoL, either due to raw opportunism or a belief similar to Nabriales's, that Elidibus was working with the enemy? His admission to Varis that he planned for the chaos in the war of succession make it obvious that he relishes in causing it. I have to wonder if Elidibus is putting on appearances to keep the other Paragons at bay, and whether this attempt at luring out the WoL is an intended means of getting him to meet with Zodiark... or maybe he is just following Zodiark's master plan. All depends on Zodiark. Lastly, is he Emet-Selch as we've been assuming? We know he is an Overlord due to his mastery over possessing bodies and reviving himself, but is he that Paragon - a Paragon of the Source, no less - or another? If so, what signifance will the attributes associated with Emet-Selch (Gemini; seraph of death; angel of truth) take on, if any?

4. The mysterious figure in the right corner of the expansion image. G'raha Tia looks like a very good fit and he has a trait which would make him possibly very useful to an Ascian (Elidibus? Emet-Selch?) seeking to use the Crystal Tower in some way. The body is mutated in several ways and the robes are highly suggestive of an Ascian. To what end would they seek to use the Crystal Tower? Possibly to sustain gateways to other worlds and maybe across timelines. Even if Zodiark possesses mastery over the domain of time, it may be one of his agents who actually gets the ball rolling.

5. The mysterious voice. I'm listing it here, because I think so much of who it might be depends on the above, including the significance of phases such as "throw wide the gates"; "let eon become instant", and "History must be changed.

The most recent element of the game to touch on this is the fortune teller, who says to ware the words of this echoing voice... but why? I believe it relates to the next fortune they give, that the WoL/D will be dragged into conflict regardless (by whom? the leaders of the city-states and Garlemald? The Ascians? Both?) and that this will force them to walk a path of thorns. So the warning might in fact relate to what accepting this voice's exhortations involves (the "only you can forestall" bit), because the calamity is becoming increasingly evident and no one, not even Hydaelyn, has disputed its reality, so the warning must, I think, relate to what will be required of us, although perhaps the speaker's motives, too. It is worth remembering these incidents began after Y'shtola wove her magic in the House of the Crooked Coin, and I have to wonder whether what was there was a fragment of Zodiark, much like what is housed in the Heart of Sabik according to Lahabrea (also why this weapon could backfire spectacularly if it is what Gaius is using), but different in that it's capable of opening some channel of communication. The voice has appeared at all times when the ensuing war came up, and who it is may explain what's happened to the Scions. It could relate to G'raha's new form (including whoever is possessing it), Zodiark, or someone else, but the way it all started and the nature of it makes me think it's one of the former two.

Lastly, relating this back to the following:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2d2j7fc.png

This again refers to what appear to be hints at time travel, because "destiny" I take to mean the trajectory - based on things as they are (again, this ties into how I think Zodiark might view time, as a compressed singularity). It's been suggested the second part refers to the transition to the WoD (darkness joins light), and the first to the possible world and time travel we're going to see. In conjunction with the phrases the voice uses, I find it hard to say there's not very strong hints at time travel. But where? IMO, the "Master Matoya" thing will also become clearer once we get answers to this.

6. Varis. His speech in the tent was jarring, in some ways, because it was so at odds with his beliefs in many respects. He had quipped at Elidibus in the past that the Rejoining would mean the end of life as we know it, with disapproval, and also gone to pains to state that he was only considering the use of the Black Rose to preserve Garlean lives... plus he grew irate at Solus when he mentioned the harm their agenda had caused the Empire and when he said he had planned for the succession war's chaos. The same Varis, later on, is wholly on board with the Ascian agenda, admits this will require the erasure of Garlemald in its present form and then goes on to speak of the dissension of "races" (he really seems to mean souls) following the fragmentation of the shards, and then oddly puts this down as his plan to deal with the Ascians... having wholly surrendered to their terms. I think what was telling here were the flickering lights, with black moths accompanying them, as this is a common trope in movies to suggest observation (or even possession) by another entity. If this was Varis, and not Solus possessing him (the basis for this is the "since we may not meet again in this lifetime"), it's worth recalling he insisted on the presence of the Scions and the WoL. He may be doing this in a way that, to the Ascians, appears he is following orders to the letter, but is actually serving to expose the severity of the situation in Garlemald, maybe hoping it could rid him of Elidibus at the least. If it was Solus briefly possessing him, well then it becomes even easier to parse.

This costs the Ascians very little, because they want this conflict and perhaps need it to carry out Zodiark's revival. They're not stupid, so by now they will have figured out that the Scions will take this as a call to move into the Empire... but this is what they want.

7. Zenos's role. It seems fairly minor. The trailer suggests he's cutting down an imperial troop at some point, no doubt due to being in a Resistance member's body. To what end? To get to his old body? Or to the WoL? Either way, I think one of those will spell his permanent end, albeit after he proves to be an irritant. However, I've also come across the hypothesis that Elidibus might simply return the body to Zenos, since their current agenda aligns - he could then empower him, to try even the odds a bit, and let him go after the WoL, whilst he lays claim to another body. This makes a lot of sense as a possible plotline they might go for, since Elidibus doesn't engage in pointless fights and is a methodical thinker, and I can easily see him putting Zenos to such a use. This could then set the scene for a re-match between Zenos and the WoL.

All of this leads me to think we're not going to Ilsabard as a matter of urgency, where the situation will be very tricky and delicate due to the prospect of the loss of innocent lives on both sides, but will need to deal with matters elsewhere more urgently, and this has been spurred by the revelations in Orbonne that point to imminent moves in Dalmasca, which is where I think the Garlean conflict of the 5.0 will be based initially, with the added complications on other worlds (the First, at least) perhaps taking us there, too, maybe leaving Ilsabard and Garlemald proper for 6.0.

Apologies for the length, but I think there's so many different storylines moving together, in tandem, that their outcomes will have implications for all the rest.

Really looking forward to 4.57 and the next trailer. :D

I feel like a lot of people are getting too complex. Time travel might happen, but I highly doubt that in a game with instanced zones, and daily content do within them, that they would separate them from the world too much.

Keep in mind that beast tribes will need to be done daily. II Mheg will have to be a zone that one can teleport to, and instantly back out of. Zones have purposes, and weird restrictions would complicate things.

There are only a few areas in the game that are impossible to reach without teleporting from outside regions. That is Vylbrand, and The Far East. You can still teleport to those with ease, or take a boat. Even Azys La is accessible with ease once you unlock it.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I'm going to guess that it won't necessarily be time travel(though it would be fitting, since the pixies and Titania were in XI during Wings of the Goddess), just based on the cinematic dialogue. A forest that's confirmed to be Rak'tika is engulfed in an inferno, and Matoy'shtola says that she'll hold the line until "Our friend," presumably the WoL/WoD, returns.

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If this is the only reason why you think it's not time travel then I think you should reconsider. There is every reason to believe that she was referring to y'shtola herself, and very little or none to believe she was referring to the WoL given the circumstances that we know of.

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Originally Posted by DarthSanguine

Actually it did. It said that people didn't discover how to make stuff out of iron until the 2nd Astral Era, meaning the 1st was Bronze Age at it's end.

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*shrugs* I didn't look much at the Second Astral part so there you go, I miss things. Its how weird theories happen sometimes.

i don't know why are thinking that is possession... IMO Matoya It seems to be the inherited name in this case. just it.
but that implies that old matoya has died and y'shtola inherited his name, powers and secrets.
seems interesting to me... but this game tends to surprise me. so, who know what can happens? right?

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Do we ever learn anything about them? I always assumed they were nods to Dissidia, where most of them are just as you said. The few that are more then that are where I get the idea for YoRHa being able to be manikins in the XIV version. Even more so since the manikins that (seem to) gain souls in Dissidia are the ones given transplanted memories just as YoRHa have transplanted memories (though in that case its to give them a sense of purpose in fighting for humanity while they also are completed aware the memories don't belong to them.)

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As shown by A2 and 9S, the YoRHa units are certainly capable of self-determination, even if it causes internal conflicts with their programming, and they very obviously have emotions and self-awareness. The Allagan manikins don't show any of these traits that, arguably, are what collectively define humanity (and thus human measure of "having a soul") - they just sit around in Azys Lla attacking intruders to the Fractal Continuum.

Dissidia's manikins don't show any of these traits either, with few exceptions. Chaos (an amalgam of 10 peoples' memories), Cosmos (a replica of Cid of the Lufaine's wife), and the I Warrior of Light (a replica of Cid himself). Even they may have started out without souls, simply carrying out roles assigned to them - but by the time of 012: Duodecim and Dissidia proper, they've very obviously developed emotions and some degree of self-determination. Conversely, the Allagan manikins show no degree of anything resembling sentience, simply acting as highly-advanced mechanical (?) guards for the Fractal Continuum.

That's not to say the XIV adaptation of the YoRHa units can't be top-secret, highly-advanced Allagan manikins... there's just no evidence leading to that conclusion. There's no information given on the Allagan manikins, though, so I will retract my earlier statement that they are definitely flesh-and-blood; they could easily be advanced clockwork constructs, but that's still not as advanced as a YoRHa unit (see above rambling on souls)...

Meh. Best thing to do at this point is shrug and wait, in my opinion.

Oh, yeah, and our oft-forgotten magitek armor "Maggie" arguably has a soul too.

I can't help but find it a bit curious that Varis is absent from the Shadowbringers art, nor was he noted as being a major player in the expansion.

I'm wondering if Solus's words that he probably wouldn't see him again are an implication that the Ascians intend to get rid of him. It would be simple enough for them to have Elidibus replace him when he's already ceded control of the imperial armies to him.

It's absolutely time travel. I don't see how people can support a "we're going to the First!" interpretation with all the hints that Yoshida's been dropping. Specifically, we're going into an apocalyptic future, but also trying to avert it... this will probably mean splitting the timeline, which will justify us being able to go back to visit the alt-future zones even after we've prevented the calamity/flood of light.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

What's new for our many ongoing debates?

• Urianger and Y'shtola are rocking new jobs (AST and BLM) as the world goes to hell
• Y'shtola refers to "until our friend returns"
• ...Did Urianger just call Y'shtola "Matoya?"
• So is this the "aethersight is an added burden on the spiritual vitality" brick finally dropping? Or is it just a title now? lol
• It seems they're in Rak'tika but something's gonna go to hell there
• I'm somehow even more confused about where we're going. Some possibly Mesoamerican themes, old west themes, and that armadillo thing, have just added the New World to the possibility mix along with The First, Light-rekt areas, and/or Dalmasca.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyY8p15XQAA2Mqd.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyY6qkeX4AABlyr.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyY95mHWwAERo2B.jpg

• The Child of Light is Minfilia

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyY-_fCX0AEL0xD.jpg

• The gunblade-wielding job is called Gunbreaker, it is a TANK.
• This is not a Garlean gunblade; they will be closer to FF8, uses magicked ammo, and will start in Gridania
• Preview of the TRUST system showed Thancred tanking, Urianger healing, and Y'shtola on DPS in a forest dungeon
• New Area: Il Mheg, a very colorful, high-fantasy plains-like area
• Area is home to the pixies, notorious tricksters (not as bad as the moogles)
• They speak a unique Oda/Koji-formulated language (Fae) and worship the primal Titania, a major 5.0 plot point
• Much can be gleaned by the new 24-man raid title...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyZFMwIXQAAEXiC.jpg

• How the sugar-frosted f[kupo!] is this going to work? PLEASE LOOK FORWARD TO IT.
• (Some of you don't know Yoko Taro / Yosuke Saito levels of "be careful what you wish for" and it shows. This is going to be amazing.)
• Viera shown off, but there were only ladies. (SO FAR...?)

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Y'shtola is possessed by Matoya you can tell by how she talks in the trailer her voice tone and speech pattern is that of Matoya and not Y'shtola's and given that they have established that another soul can posses someones body it's not impossible for one as powerful as Matoya to do what the Ascians do.

The only souls we've seen posses bodies are souls with the Echo or the Resonance. Matoya, as far as we know, has neither. Body possession also seems to be linked to the Ascians and has never been shown to be something good for people to do. So until Patch 4.56 comes, I'm putting that view of the situation lower down on my list of explanations for the scene.

As far as Y'shtola talking like Matoya goes... Matoya was Y'shtola's mentor and it seems Matoya views Y'shtola as her protege at the very least, maybe even as her daughter. Y'shtola herself makes fun of herself turning into Matoya in Patch 4.4. So it's very probable that Y'shtola picked up on a lot of Matoya's mannerisms over the years. I could easily see something happening to Matoya while she tries to get the rest of the Scions back from being Called and Y'shtola deciding to take up her beloved mentor's legacy in her place.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they've thus far managed to avoid disclosing any information that really spoils what's going to actually happen at the end of the 4.5 MSQ. There's really only fuel for theories at this point.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The only souls we've seen posses bodies are souls with the Echo or the Resonance. Matoya, as far as we know, has neither. Body possession also seems to be linked to the Ascians and has never been shown to be something good for people to do. So until Patch 4.56 comes, I'm putting that view of the situation lower down on my list of explanations for the scene.

As far as Y'shtola talking like Matoya goes... Matoya was Y'shtola's mentor and it seems Matoya views Y'shtola as her protege at the very least, maybe even as her daughter. Y'shtola herself makes fun of herself turning into Matoya in Patch 4.4. So it's very probable that Y'shtola picked up on a lot of Matoya's mannerisms over the years. I could easily see something happening to Matoya while she tries to get the rest of the Scions back from being Called and Y'shtola deciding to take up her beloved mentor's legacy in her place.

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There's been multiple instances of non-Echo related soul shenanigans in side quests, such as with Genbu and Soroban in the Four Lords quests and Lalai and Shatotto in the SB BLM quests. You could probably consider what happened with Nidhogg and Estinien a similar case.

It seems like anyone who's powerful enough and has the know-how can potentially linger after the loss of their physical body.

There's that interesting aspect about this whole "Matoya Possessing Y'shtola's body" thing.

Which is, unless something happens between now and 5.0 to change it... Y'shtola's body is in the Rising Sands along with the rest of the Scions that have had their souls taken.

This suggests, that only their souls are being transported to wherever (And/or whenever) ShB is happening. Which suggests that whatever vessels they'll be using might have room for "Possession".

Like, we've had a glimpse of Solus clones and we now have knowledge of Nier style automatons with souls imbued with them with the upcoming raid.

Therefore there's a possibility that, however we end up getting to ShB content, what might be awaiting us is clones or automatons for us to inhabit in order to affect the physical world. With the potential that Matoya found a way to come with us and because she was unaccounted for, she ended up having to borrow a Y'shtola clone/automaton instead of having one of herself.

Since, as long as our physical bodies remain on the Source, it won't be like the way Ascians and the First's WoD who can get the ability to travel between shards with their teleporty tricks because they need to relinquish their physical bodies to do so. As such, we'd need some way of allowing us to leave the Aethereal Sea and interact with the physical world without transporting our physical bodies there (Unless, of course, 4.55 - 5.0 has something in store to show us transporting our physical bodies to wherever ShB occurs)

I really hope it's not time travel. It always ends up convoluted and confusing, with forced arbitrary rules to excuse the plot from going to far back.

The thing with Matoya and Y'shtola is the only way i can see Matoya die is for Y'shtola body possession has happened for non echo users with Genbu and Soraban, Ultima and Alma Nidhogg and Estinien but said possession has also had a high amount of aether involved being auspices a living primal or dragon eyes so if Matoya is possessing Y'shtola i think the crystal eye will be used to do it as for what sets things off i think we kill Elidibus as well as Solus releases a light aspected Black rose killing both the Alliance and Garlean main forces and this tips the balance on the source within the maelstrom of death we plead to Hydalen for a way to stop it and we get sent to the source to fetch Minifilia and bring her back but she refuses to leave the 1st to their own suffering and to combat the light there we become the WoD

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

It's absolutely time travel. I don't see how people can support a "we're going to the First!" interpretation with all the hints that Yoshida's been dropping. Specifically, we're going into an apocalyptic future, but also trying to avert it... this will probably mean splitting the timeline, which will justify us being able to go back to visit the alt-future zones even after we've prevented the calamity/flood of light.

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The thing makes me doubt time travel is involved is the fact that we're inevitably going to have to return to all of the different expansion zones for the post-5.0 MSQ. What reason would we have to return to a bad future if things have been patched up?

On the flipside, if we're going to the First to curb the flood of light, there's all sorts of reasons we could have for going back over there once matters have been seemingly resolved.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It seems like anyone who's powerful enough and has the know-how can potentially linger after the loss of their physical body.

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Mm. There's also the possibility that Matoya will make use of a forbidden spell in order to accomplish it.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I really hope it's not time travel. It always ends up convoluted and confusing, with forced arbitrary rules to excuse the plot from going to far back.

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I agree that I don't want to see a convoluted time travel story that creates paradoxes or alters past events - but what does give me some hope, if they're going that path, is the Alexander questline: a stable time loop.

Time loops make for more clever writing, and a much neater conclusion. I also prefer it to the implication that there are multiple timelines splitting off from events, and somewhere out there is going to be an alternate version of every time we failed to save the world.

It's messy enough already that there are multiple planes of reality, let alone introducing multiple timelines for those multiple planes.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

I'm iffy on time travel as a plot element because mechanically going to these places can't function any differently than changing zones currently does. And say we jump ahead in time, why is Rebuild Ishgard a thing? Shouldn't they have dealt with that themselves by then? It also rubs time bubble issues right in your face constantly because it can't take away any content and they've been careful to limit the points where we do cross it.

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I highly expect that any time travel will come with a stable way of moving back and forth between the "standard" and "future" times. Yes, it will probably be, functionally, no different to moving between zones - although it might mean we can't freely teleport across time. (Or maybe we can due to either our special powers or just some previously unencountered mechanic of how aetherial travel functions. Say, if you attune to one aetheryte in Now and another one in The Future, it will transport you across time as well as space. It always worked that way, but nobody was ever able to attune to aetherytes anywhere other than Now to discover that.)

If we do have The Future as a destination, I expect it will essentially be a second time bubble, so we're moving between the two. I've said before (when it was only a theory based on the more dubious part of those leaks) that moving to a "later" time bubble would allow the writers to bring in elements from main-time-bubble sidequests and use them in the MSQ, because there's no longer a need to hold off in case an individual player hasn't completed that quest yet.

For the specific example of bringing G'raha Tia back into the storyline, his timeline looks something like this:

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1. Start of main time bubble events
<---------------------------------------------- Player may be here
2. Player meets G'raha
<---------------------------------------------- Player may be here
3. G'raha is sealed in the tower
<---------------------------------------------- Player may be here
4. End of time bubble
====

====
5. Start of future time bubble events
6. Tower is unsealed
7. ???
8. Player pulled to future
<---------------------------------------------- Player is definitely here
9. Plot ensues.
====

Because we've moved to a different time bubble, there's no question that the events of the Crystal Tower raid have already occurred, whether the player has personally experienced them yet or not. That means they are entirely free to (re-)introduce Future G'raha to the player whether or not Past G'raha has been sealed in the tower yet, only needing a bit of variable dialogue depending on where the player is up to in the raid.

(Of course, due to the oddities of time travel, he will know you regardless of whether or not you've met him!)


By the same logic (and if they won't involve him in current-day MSQ) I'm really hoping Unukalhai will finally get to be involved in the plot as well.



Meanwhile, on the specific question of "why rebuild Ishgard if we're going to the future where it will be fixed anyway?"... well, present Ishgard is still in a mess, and someone has to do that fixing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

4. The mysterious figure in the right corner of the expansion image. G'raha Tia looks like a very good fit and he has a trait which would make him possibly very useful to an Ascian (Elidibus? Emet-Selch?) seeking to use the Crystal Tower in some way. The body is mutated in several ways and the robes are highly suggestive of an Ascian.

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We haven't seen any other Ascian hosts looking "corrupted" like that though, so it's more likely to be unrelated and (if it is indeed G'raha) attributable to the Crystal Tower's influence.

And the robes are a tricky one. There are all sorts of reasons for him to be wearing a hooded robe, not least that they might simply want to be able to put him on the poster image without entirely giving the game away! But also perhaps within the story for the same reason - we see this strange hooded figure, and perhaps after several glimpses we finally come face-to-face with them, and realise that it's not a stranger after all.

Somewhere in the vast amount of reading I've been doing on the forums today, someone (perhaps you) also brought up the colour of the robes - black and white, and "red to match G'raha's old outfit" - but having checked back on screenshots, his original costume features all three of those colours. Red-and-black shirt, white pants, white necklace, black boots and gloves with white highlights.

The robes look like they could be Allagan - eg. compare the Dreadwyrm Hood and High Allagan Gloves of Healing. They're not the same, but it's that kind of idea.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Oh, yeah, and our oft-forgotten magitek armor "Maggie" arguably has a soul too.

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That's apparently due to the "mammet core" we installed in her - however they're supposed to work.