Imma spill some glamour option tea a bit...

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

https://wir.skyrock.net/wir/v1/resiz...Yx4x.jpg&w=399

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What exactly is that guy on the bottom, second from the left, doing?

I am personally fine with glamour options right now. I mean, I'd like to see more creativity with the male options, but making one bunny suit seemed to have mentally scarred the developers for life, so whatever. I think that's why we haven't seen any "veteran" rewards added that are based on female characters. People would reasonably expect them to be unisex

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Sorry to say this dude, but none of those are traditionally feminine. Like not at all lol, especially during those eras. You won't hear any complaints from me if sets like these were released and gender locked for males. Are you going to post more kilts, healed boots, and other gender neutral attire? And actually, I wouldn't even say these outfits are gender neutral. They are definitely designed for males to wear.

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I'm pretty sure that was exactly the point. At least what I took to be the point.

People say that there are too many feminine costumes in the game, and not enough masculine costumes, but I'm fairly sure it's because they look at things like this and see skirts and dresses.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

What exactly is that guy on the bottom, second from the left, doing?

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An excellent question which I also asked when looking through the images, but have no answer for.

I am not sure if I want to know.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The thing is people who don't want to conform to someone else's standards would feel like it is an attack because the preferences of another person is being forced on them.

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That's a sentiment those on the receiving end need to deal with, pardon my bluntness. I do not feel attacked by those who want gender locked outfits because I am not being personally attacked. That's the line I chose to draw. If people want to draw theirs at opposing aesthetic views rather than their character themselves then...best to terminate the game entirely. Then no one will feel attacked.

I just wish the stopped gender locking altogether...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Sorry to say this dude, but none of those are traditionally feminine.

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What makes something traditionally feminine or traditionally masculine?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Explain to me how keeping things gender locked hurts ANYONE. Please! I really want to hear this.

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It restricts choice in a way that doesn't benefit the game. There's no reason why a male character shouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt, nor a female character to wear trousers or a suit with a tie.

Oh wait, female characters DO get to wear trousers and suits with a tie. So why can't males wear skirts.

Flip your question and ask how removing gender lock hurts anyone. It doesn't. It doesn't even hurt you regardless of your "traditional values".

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

That's a sentiment those on the receiving end need to deal with, pardon my bluntness. I do not feel attacked by those who want gender locked outfits because I am not being personally attacked. That's the line I chose to draw. If people want to draw theirs at opposing aesthetic views rather than their character themselves then...best to terminate the game entirely. Then no one will feel attacked.

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But they don't need to deal with it. That's the point. Gender locking is a near meaningless restriction that has literally zero impact on the game's mechanics. Removing it would make people more happy than unhappy. Everyone would love more choice in glams. Anyway not all gender locked gear is extremely feminine or masculine. Some are pretty neutral.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It restricts choice in a way that doesn't benefit the game. There's no reason why a male character shouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt, nor a female character to wear trousers or a suit with a tie.

Oh wait, female characters DO get to wear trousers and suits with a tie. So why can't males wear skirts.

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Funny thing is there are some skirts male characters can wear. Even Raubahn wears a skirt and no one complains about it.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

What makes something traditionally feminine or traditionally masculine?

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I think it ties to how it fits and accentuates the body! The history of fashion is interesting and honestly throughout there have been a lot of different trends that developed for different reasons. Ex. Historically when European women wore massive hoop skirts with corsets that made their waists look tiny, sort of like a bell, the point was to make the hips look dramatically wider iirc because wide hips signified fertility and being a top quality feminine lady. I remember there was a time in history when it was manly for dudes to show they had muscular calves I think with hose and heels because it showed high status (don’t need to plow fields) and strength/masculinity. Can’t swear to the second but think I heard that. In general there is a lot of interaction between environment, resources, inconvenience, health, rarity, biology, and other stuff. It isn’t arbitrary, is an art form, and can be really cool! Worth researching all the different reasons behind trend development and then extrapolating for fiction. :) Also cool thing about fashion, as an art form works differently across different body types to emphasize different features and create various silhouettes and impressions. The traditional part of traditionally masculine or feminine just means that historically those trends were favored to emphasize certain aspects of male and female bodies and make statements about the individual men and women who utilized them I figure. Can defy the traditional norms and all, just wouldn’t be traditional specifically for masculinity or femininity because it steps away from the social conventions and messages being conveyed through fashion at the time.

Also quick note to people asking why gender locking on outfits, I think honestly it is in part because the devs would have to spend more time, money, and effort adapting the clothes for male and female models, which they do for most glamours. Probably it’s as simple as they spent their resources doing other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

The traditional part of traditionally masculine or feminine just means that historically those trends were favored to emphasize certain aspects of male and female bodies and make statements about the individual men and women who utilized them I figure. Can defy the traditional norms and all, just wouldn’t be traditional specifically for masculinity or femininity because it specifically steps away from the social conventions and messages being conveyed through fashion at the time.

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Based on this description, the definition of 'traditional' changes over time and depends heavily on culture and social norms. As social norms change, so too does traditional dress and expectations for 'feminine' and 'masculine'. I'd be curious to know which time and/or culture SE is attempting to adhere to with their current gender locking system. I feel like FFXIV is a big mixing pool right now, and to me it seems pointless to limit player creativity and expression.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Also quick note to people asking why gender locking on outfits, I think honestly it is in part because the devs would have to spend more time, money, and effort adapting the clothes for male and female models, which they do for most glamours. Probably it’s as simple as they spent their resources doing other stuff.

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They already have to adapt all of the clothing for lalafell models though, so I don't see why male/female is so much harder...?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Funny thing is there are some skirts male characters can wear. Even Raubahn wears a skirt and no one complains about it.

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He gives off a roman gladiator vibe with it, which isn't wrong given his past. And from where he comes from, wearing such 'skirts' shouldn't be a uncommon thing (Gyr Abania/Ala Mhigo).

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Originally Posted by Arrius

He gives off a roman gladiator vibe with it, which isn't wrong given his past. And from where he comes from, wearing such 'skirts' shouldn't be a uncommon thing (Gyr Abania/Ala Mhigo).

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Yep. I think that all is literally the point since they have coliseum fights, and literal "gladiators".

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Based on this description, the definition of 'traditional' changes over time and depends heavily on culture and social norms. As social norms change, so too does traditional dress and expectations for 'feminine' and 'masculine'. I'd be curious to know which time and/or culture SE is attempting to adhere to with their current gender locking system. I feel like FFXIV is a big mixing pool right now, and to me it seems pointless to limit player creativity and expression.

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Yup! Also based on region! Wish I remembered the specific people but heard there’s a culture where the desired figure is to form a triangle when sitting down. The connotation of health is an important part of it, and generally when you get stigma whether as horror (like zombies or lepers) or other forms of aversion, it ties to “this person looks very unhealthy and I don’t want to be unhealthy too” instincts. Again, beauty standards are a thing and they change according to time/place/resources, but still not arbitrary.

I think that SE, while an amalgam of many cultures/times, is mainly catering to Japanese sensibilities since that’s the biggest audience. Doesn’t mean styles are only Japanese, just that likely outside influences will be what Japanese consumers think is exciting and foreign. If Westerners throw money in too awesome but we’re prob a nice “and also” versus the main target.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

They already have to adapt all of the clothing for lalafell models though, so I don't see why male/female is so much harder...?

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Putting in a lot of work adjusting for lalas might make it less likely we’d get 100% gender availability imo. If SE has finite time and money, and they have to subtract a certain amount to make sure lala players aren’t locked out, then they have to adapt for different body types of one gender (a lot of work!), you still have all the different body types of the other gender. Proportions and movements aren’t the same across races. Even if differences aren’t as dramatic as say male roe versus lala, I wouldn’t expect them to be able to just resize to make it all fit. Most cases we get both genders anyway. Ones we don’t are prob from where the finite amount of time/money was going down and they had to decide what of the remaining features their resources get spent on. Also, if they don’t expect the returns to be significant enough to justify that extra time and money, doesn’t make sense to pour that in. They put a lot of heart and effort into this game, but it is a business too and there are people there whose entire job is to make sure time, money, and talent is used in ways that will pay off/allow for more games and content in the future. That make sense? I can’t claim to know more than anyone else about the inner workings of SE or details of programming/game making so this is just speculation, but that’s what I figure seems likely.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Also quick note to people asking why gender locking on outfits, I think honestly it is in part because the devs would have to spend more time, money, and effort adapting the clothes for male and female models, which they do for most glamours. Probably it’s as simple as they spent their resources doing other stuff.

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This is the key to it, I think.

They're not simply averse to giving male characters any kind of "feminine" gear. They can use floral hairpins and an assortment of skirts.

What they do seem to avoid is chest pieces, which need more modelling work to be refitted for different body shapes. (And come to think of it, I think male characters have a wider range of body shapes than female characters do, which might add even more to the amount of relative work.)

Combined with the fact that only a relatively small portion of the playerbase will actually want to put those dresses on their male character, it's understandable that they'll consider it not worth their resources - unless there's high demand for it like the bunny suits. (Which I'm fairly sure got "lost in translation" on the way to that final result of an exact replica of the female version.)

Skirts wouldn't need the same kind of work - just stick the same 'tube' of the skirt onto the base model of each character's legs - and of course hats and jewellery are one-size-fits-all.

There are a few things they probably could selectively unlock because they have the models - eg. the Spring Dress specifically for male Highlanders, courtesy of Hildibrand, and the Riviera Vest for females since it was modelled for the Vampire's Vest item (and the non-vampire version has appeared on at least one NPC!) - but maybe it seems too messy to have individual exceptions like this.

I have complained about it many times.
Pretty much all gear that isn't level 1 slutwears, flavour of the month "real world trash" crafted or brd/healer af is clearly only designed with male midlander in mind, some 1.0 sets look different between genders but they stopped that trend in 2.0, more sets should work like them or shisui and look different, the Tactics Ogre and FFT outfits should have and I'll forever be mad they don't, 75%+ of gear is clearly designed for males, but this forum love to cry males are oppressed because they can't crossdress or that casters and healers get ugly unisex robes.

Skimming this thread, it really doesn't surprise me at all that SE almost never listens to players when it comes to glamour. Why? Because 99% the playerbase is at eachothers' throats over differing opinions on it. There was a huge, long-term outcry for the male bunny suit... and it's the one requested thing they gave us.

But everyone else is just bickering and pointing fingers-

• "Females get more/better glams" versus "Males get more/better glams" (This one is a biggie and has several variations: overall number, number of mogstation items, number of FF character outfits, etc.)
• "Give us more modern fashion glams" versus "Modern glams are trash"
• "Make all the armor look the same for both male and female models" versus "All armor needs to be specially tailored for each gender"

It's a gd free-for-all. I don't blame SE for ignoring us and doing whatever they feel is best and/or easiest- they can't win anyway. Whatever they do, some very vocal group of players is going to whinge and whine about it.

Why can't people just let this go and let the devs decide for themselves the fashion for the world they created?

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Originally Posted by Arrius

He gives off a roman gladiator vibe with it, which isn't wrong given his past. And from where he comes from, wearing such 'skirts' shouldn't be a uncommon thing (Gyr Abania/Ala Mhigo).

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Absolutely. The point is he wears a skirt and his masculinity hasn't come into question. He's probably widely regarded as one of the most masculine characters in the game. Yet strangely there are similar skirts that are gender locked to female characters.

Basically what I'm saying is letting male characters wear more skirts isn't going to be the end of the world :D

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Combined with the fact that only a relatively small portion of the playerbase will actually want to put those dresses on their male character, it's understandable that they'll consider it not worth their resources - unless there's high demand for it like the bunny suits. (Which I'm fairly sure got "lost in translation" on the way to that final result of an exact replica of the female version.)

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But loads of gender locked gear aren't dresses. First of all not every female only chest piece is a dress, and there are gender locked items for the chest, legs, feet, hands and head slots.

Taking Lightning's outfit for example, the only arguably feminine piece is the skirt. Not even her hairstyle isn't particularly feminine but it is locked to females, meanwhile males can wear the Gyr Abanian Plait which looks significantly more feminine.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Also quick note to people asking why gender locking on outfits, I think honestly it is in part because the devs would have to spend more time, money, and effort adapting the clothes for male and female models, which they do for most glamours. Probably it’s as simple as they spent their resources doing other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

This is the key to it, I think.

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This is most likely one of the primary reasons for gender locking. It would take some time and effort to make some pieces work for other race and gender combos. Mainly the chest pieces. Head, gloves, legs and feet would require little to none. Male chestpieces would need to be readjusted for a large bust. Readjusting the female chest pieces would actually be less work because they can already be worn by flat-chested lalafells.

But yea while glamming is something SE certainly do focus on, I doubt they'll take away people from teams designing dungeons and raids to readdress an already released chest piece. At the very least they could abolish gender locking for future gear and hairstyles.