Dev Team, you screwed up.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

This game (currently) doesn't have support classes. So a BLU can't be one. If it was it would become either mandatory in a grp or useless and ignored.

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What is BRD if not a support class?

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Again it's nothing to do with the use of the spell - if a RDM is Vercuring and not DPSing then something has gone wrong in the grp.
You don't bring RDM to heal people. You being them for quick reses in progression and then ignore them in speed kills.

This game (currently) doesn't have support classes. So a BLU can't be one. If it was it would become either mandatory in a grp or useless and ignored.

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Okay, then all it takes for a BLU to not be a RDM clone is to not have a raising spell (it could still have with Angel's Whisper anyway). You bring RDM for quick reses, but you can't do it with BLU. The classes have now different utilities to the party.

Also, the game doesn't have a strict support class, but that doesn't mean that classes can't support each other. That's one of the ways that DPSs can set themselves apart from one another.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

What is BRD if not a support class?

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Bard would be a support class if its DPS was reduced by say 40% and was brought as a support class not as a DPS.

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Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

Okay, then all it takes for a BLU to not be a RDM clone is to not have a raising spell (it could still have with Angel's Whisper anyway). You bring RDM for quick reses, but you can't do it with BLU. The classes have now different utilities to the party.

Also, the game doesn't have a strict support class, but that doesn't mean that classes can't support each other. That's one of the ways that DPSs can set themselves apart from one another.

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Absolutely - but then you run into the problems of what becomes mandatory and what becomes useless.

Look at the schism between the three healers. Unless WHM is given some very significant damage buffs there is little to no reason to bring them over an AST or a SCH.
There is currently no reason to bring a MCH over a BRD.
Having a BLM/SAM who under-performs is a waste of a DPS slot.

Yes, this only effects the people who want to play the game on a more serious level - and of course everything is viable in all content with the right player - but why would SE add to these issues by making BLU anything but just another DPS mage. Like they did with RDM.

Anyway - I'm not trying to convince you that you don't want to run with your BLUs in DF content - that's all cool with me.
I'm just pointing out that there are glaring issues with it and you will only get a watered down version of it to keep the already badly managed class balance status quo.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Bard would be a support class if its DPS was reduced by say 40% and was brought as a support class not as a DPS.

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So support classes can't deal damage?

Also, last I checked, BRD's were brought because of their support skills rather than their DPS (Since, they're not the highest DPS class, even with DRG providing a boost to their damage)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

So support classes can't deal damage?

Also, last I checked, BRD's were brought because of their support skills rather than their DPS (Since, they're not the highest DPS class, even with DRG providing a boost to their damage)

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Not really going to argue semantics here - if you want BRD to be a support class it can be.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Not really going to argue semantics here - if you want BRD to be a support class it can be.

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I mean, you're the one who brought up "There are no Support classes" and "There can never be a Support class"

When, we literally have had a Support class since ARR, in the form of BRD which has continually been providing significant team boosts and as such as been fairly critical (Heh, puns) within competitive parties even without being the highest DPS (Due to their support increasing overall DPS despite that)

Now, semantics would be arguing that DRG is a Support class, because it gets brought along to boost BRD/MCH damage and that's about it (Battle Litany too, but mostly just the 5% piercing resist down), however, I am not wont to do that because there's a difference between all the utility that BRD brings and just having a couple of skills that help other players.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I mean, you're the one who brought up "There are no Support classes" and "There can never be a Support class"

When, we literally have had a Support class since ARR, in the form of BRD which has continually been providing significant team boosts and as such as been fairly critical (Heh, puns) within competitive parties even without being the highest DPS (Due to their support increasing overall DPS despite that)

Now, semantics would be arguing that DRG is a Support class, because it gets brought along to boost BRD/MCH damage and that's about it (Battle Litany too, but mostly just the 5% piercing resist down), however, I am not wont to do that because there's a difference between all the utility that BRD brings and just having a couple of skills that help other players.

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Honestly I don't see them defined as Support Classes in the truest sense but I don't want to argue with you about it.
Where I am is that I don't think BLU will be implemented well enough to satisfy people and I can understand the decision they made. That's all.

I never said there would never be a support class - I said that given the game as it stands there couldn't be. This, of course could change. But given the two examples of RDM and the current implementation of BLU it would suggest there is precedent for them not making a support class - making BLU mage just another mage with a crowed in class bar and different colored spells and perhaps a piercing debuff. Which, in my humble view, is not what everyone clamoring for DF BLU mages actually wants.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Honestly I don't see them defined as Support Classes in the truest sense but I don't want to argue with you about it.

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It all depends on how you define "Support Classes".

If you mean "Completely useless class entirely reliant on buffing other classes" then no, there are no Support Classes in the game. Nor should there ever be.

However, "Support Class" in reality is a fairly broad term. Usually defined by the notion that the class receives interest for bringing to a party not because it performs well at its role, but because it helps others perform better at their role.

Which means that the reason WHM is inferior to SCH/AST is because WHM is pure Healer, while SCH/AST are both Healer/Support because they have boosts to other people's DPS.

Why is BRD unanimously favoured over MCH? It's because MCH is pure DPS while BRD is DPS/Support and MCH doesn't have the raw DPS to outperform other raw DPS classes even if it does outperform BRD.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Where I am is that I don't think BLU will be implemented well enough to satisfy people and I can understand the decision they made. That's all.

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Well, your entire argument seems to be hinging on the implementation of RDM. Which has issues merely because it's a DPS/Healer in a game where healing is overtuned that it's a non-factor outside of progression (It also doesn't outperform BLM/SMN in terms of magical DPS classes)

That, and this notion that all classes of a particular sub-role are literally identical. That BLU = RDM = BLM = SMN and there's no differences between them. (By that standard, WHM = SCH = AST, WAR = DRK = PLD, MCH = BRD and SAM = DRG = NIN = MNK and thus there are only actually 5 classes in the entire game)

BLU has plenty of potential viability being a DPS/Support class. Not quite the raw damage machines like BLM/SMN. Not quite the healing output of RDM. But enough tools and utility to which you might want to bring a BLU to your raid/party for some buffs/debuffs.

Much like how BRD is middle of the road in terms of DPS output, but is still useful because they bring a bunch of utility that aids the party/raid as a whole.

Meanwhile, there's little to actually change from the current implementation of BLU, certainly nothing drastic needs doing. Meanwhile, you've stated yourself that you in fact do like the current implementation of BLU. So... It stands to reason that people should like a BLU that has been fleshed out a bit (Which is all that's necessary to turn current BLU into a viable DPS/Support job that can be viable in normal content, just like BRD)

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I never said there would never be a support class - I said that given the game as it stands there couldn't be.

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No, you literally said:

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

This game (currently) doesn't have support classes. So a BLU can't be one. If it was it would become either mandatory in a grp or useless and ignored.

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Which is implying that there not only is not a support class (There is) but also that it's not possible for there to be one by stating that BLU can't be one (If BLU can't be one, who CAN be one?)

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

This, of course could change. But given the two examples of RDM and the current implementation of BLU it would suggest there is precedent for them not making a support class

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But they have BRD, which is precedent for a support class.

They have current BLU, which has precedent for a support class (Via Peculiar Light, White Wind, Bad Breath) - Even more so if they actually made Mighty Guard and Moon Flute more closely resemble previous games iterations.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

making BLU mage just another mage with a crowed in class bar and different colored spells and perhaps a piercing debuff. Which, in my humble view, is not what everyone clamoring for DF BLU mages actually wants.

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As has been mentioned, time and time again, BLU could quite easily be distinct from other mages. They have potential to be supportive much like BRD, without "Just having a piercing debuff" (Which is unlikely to happen because then it would mean that people would basically just take whichever class did more DPS between DRG and BLU and ignore the other one completely)

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Bard would be a support class if its DPS was reduced by say 40% and was brought as a support class not as a DPS.

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If BRD did 40% less damage, it would be doing less damage than tanks and healers. Remember that in this game, everything is a DPS no matter it's color; there's no reason a support class wouldn't be the same. Bard and Ninja are already perfect examples of how XIV treats support; they're lower on the pole among the DPS class, but they still do more than tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

So support classes can't deal damage?

Also, last I checked, BRD's were brought because of their support skills rather than their DPS (Since, they're not the highest DPS class, even with DRG providing a boost to their damage)

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As a matter of fact, in a metal comp, the BRD is the highest or second highest DPS.

And based on your logic:
We only bring ninja for Trick Attack... Support.

We only bring DRG for Battle Litany: Support.

Oh BRD won't run without DRG becasue without piercing they do less *gaaasp* DPS!

Just because a job brings some support abilities doesn't mean said job will be shelved into a role that doesn't exist.

WAR has slashing and Shake it off, not support.
Even DRK has support via TBN.
PLD as cover, veil, passage... Heck even a heal. It's a tank, not support.

All three tanks help aggro management with provide and shirk. Also mitigation with reprisal.

All melee have feint and goad.

All casters have manashift, addle, apoc.

So BRD and MCH having refresh, tactician and palisade doesn't push them out of DPS into support. Specially when they are higher DPS than half the melee and one of the casters.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

-snip-

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From all the logs I've been seeing, there are plenty of classes above BRD in DPS.

In addition, 1 support skill does not make a support.

However, BRD doesn't just bring one support skill.

They bring Songs (2% crit rate for party), Foe Requiem (3% more damage taken by enemies), Battle Voice (15% direct hit rate for party), The Warden's Paean (Cleanse), Troubador (15% Max Health/10% Phys protection/10% Mag protection depending on current song) and Nature's Minne (Essentially Covalescence for any target)

Never did I touch on Role Actions when regarding them as a support, because role actions are just that, role actions, usable by every class within a role.

Also, WTF do you mean "Shelved into a role that doesn't exist"? They're quite clearly DPS/Support their entire lore is about being DPS/Support and their kit is about being DPS/Support.

If you can provide evidence that they are pure DPS and provide no meaningful support outside like 1 skill in their kit, then I might concede that they are instead pure DPS.

However, every log I see has them not being top DPS, but I know for a fact that they're wanted for their support otherwise they wouldn't be in every raid group. If they were only wanted for their role skills they'd be replaced by MCH who out DPS them.

Sure, some logs shows BRD as second DPS, but usually also quite far away from the top DPS. I also see far more logs where BRD is 3rd/4th on DPS and have not seen one where BRD is top DPS (It's usually always BLM and if not being used SMN)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Snip

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I'm not the one claiming a fourth role exists. The burden of the proof falls on you my friend.

Just having a few support abilities doesn't make you a support. Specially considering most are redundant like the cleanse or a single target convalescence considering the later is considered "useless" at decent levels of play since it doesn't increase healing received from non-spell sources (where the majority of healing is from).

Also PLD has Clemency, Cover, Passage of Arms, Intervention, Hallowed Ground (this cheeses mechanics, hence support!) and Divine Veil. I counted as many actions as you did, still would've shove PLD into the non-existent support role.

Ninja has so much group enmity control and they have Trick Attack. If there is a top abilities that guarantees spot on their own in ANY MMO, Trick Attack is definitely on the top of that list, if not the absolute #1.

The existence of BRD in a party guarantees DRG a spot because of the DRG's "support" abilities. Making DRG's support more vital than BRD's.

Red Mage has flipping CURE spell.. CURE!!! Named VerCURE to make it obvious. And it's not considered support or healer. Oh also Verraise and Embolden to name more things because apparently quantity is very important to you. :)

Heck even the selfish Samurai provides Slashing Resist down and Dark Knight has TBN.

Support is something EVERY class can provide to a different extent.

According to the logs, 3 jobs above BRD are non-meta jobs, being: Black Mage, Samurai and Monk. The remaining two, being Summoner and Machinist, compete for the same spot of the "fourth DPS" in the meta DPS jobs consisting of: Ninja + Dragoon + Bard + Summoner/MCH. Hence my statement remains true of Bard being highest or second highest in said groups. In a speed run or a "parse run", you won't find said black mages or samurai as they are not considered "meta jobs" even if their personal DPS is extremely high.

Bard does more DPS than the following: 1- Ninja. 2- Dragoon. and Competes VERY WELL with Red Mage and Machinist.

Regardless, I'm not here to argue semantics. The point of the post here is BLU can be a very viable job if some of the spells are moved to off GCD actions, some potencies raised, other spells turned into cooldowns, and given actual weapons with actual weapon damage on them. Instead, Square Enix choose to deny us a full cake of fun and just "limiting" us to bread crumbs (see what I did there? Dhur hur).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I'm not the one claiming a fourth role exists. The burden of the proof falls on you my friend.

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And I've provided proof. Or do you want me to go and post all of the logs where BRD is picked in every single raid group and not the top DPS?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Just having a few support abilities doesn't make you a support.

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No, but having a few support abilities AND being picked because of your support abilities DOES.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Also PLD has Clemency, Cover, Passage of Arms, Intervention, Hallowed Ground (this cheeses mechanics, hence support!) and Divine Veil. I counted as many actions as you did, still would've shove PLD into the non-existent support role.

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Yes, PLD is Tank/Support. It's the reason why they're not as favoured as WAR who are Tank/DPS because people don't care about their support skills and just want the additional damage that WAR provides.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Ninja has so much group enmity control and they have Trick Attack. If there is a top abilities that guarantees spot on their own in ANY MMO, Trick Attack is definitely on the top of that list, if not the absolute #1.

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And yet, not every group runs with a Ninja.

Meanwhile, EVERY group runs with a Bard..

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The existence of BRD in a party guarantees DRG a spot because of the DRG's "support" abilities. Making DRG's support more vital than BRD's.

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Again, not EVERY group runs with a DRG. While EVERY group runs with a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Red Mage has flipping CURE spell.. CURE!!! Named VerCURE to make it obvious. And it's not considered support or healer. Oh also Verraise and Embolden to name more things because apparently quantity is very important to you. :)

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RDM is a DPS/Healer. That is literally the reason they're only cared about during progression when the extra healing/raises actually matters. Since, instead of having raw DPS like BLM/SMN they have additional utility in the form of their heal and raise which people don't care about once content is on farm.

It's almost as if you've not paid any attention to my previous posts and are just trying to "Prove" that BRD isn't a supportive job in the game by using poorly thought out arguments that I've already answered...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

According to the logs, 3 jobs above BRD are non-meta jobs, being: Black Mage, Samurai and Monk. The remaining two, being Summoner and Machinist, compete for the same spot of the "fourth DPS" in the meta DPS jobs consisting of: Ninja + Dragoon + Bard + Summoner/MCH. Hence my statement remains true of Bard being highest or second highest in said groups. In a speed run or a "parse run", you won't find said black mages or samurai as they are not considered "meta jobs" even if their personal DPS is extremely high.

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Okay. Fine. Here are the top 10 logs for Savage Alphascape:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/1bJZt...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xYnQz...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xYDy8...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xnDjh...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3Gy9n...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fpVjZ...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/J8WBL...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3P9J2...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/VJYxQ...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/zGCMY...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/4TFQY...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fpbxy...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/7PWpM...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/zN72W...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fRAz8...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/37rk9...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3K8RY...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3qfa2...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Ra4hC...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/JrDKM...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Q9j4r...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xNahP...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/dwLkq...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/jtXGh...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Zd1r6...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/wGqF7...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/zdPR9...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/DAbpG...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/1dWvn...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/cyMhX...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/F4Dzk...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/kB4PT...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/GHA76...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/4VPHd...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/L96ft...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xq47L...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/wGnkf...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x8arW...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/BVnxa...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HaCfY...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/4LN3R...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/NwZFL...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/ZyAX6...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HCQPq...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/CBaK3...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/bprWd...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/tan7X...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/dbkmL...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/xXBc6...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Vzgaf...pe=damage-done

Tell me some more about how no-one runs BLM/SAM/MNK and how BRD out DPSes everyone else that's used in a "Parse run".

Go on. The "Burden of proof is on you" I believe. I've done my part. Unless the top parses from Savage Alphascape doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Regardless, I'm not here to argue semantics.

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And yet, like other people who use the same "I'm not here to argue semantics" line, you literally came in here to bring up semantics because apparently, "Support" should mean "Does absolutely nothing else but supports allies"

Rather than FFXIV's "Support" classes not only existing, but still pushing out a decent amount of damage (Like every other job in the game, DPS is a high priority. So jobs that make the entire parties overall DPS the highest are the preferred ones, this can mean taking a lower DPS job that has buffs that more than make up for the difference between them and a "Top Selfish DPS" job)

Role and Capability are different distinctions.
Most jobs have some measure of support capability, but don't fit the support role. They also merged a lot of typically role exclusive abilities and spells in this game. it also does depends on your definition of support.
If" Anything that helps the party" is support, then All jobs are supports, even more Pure DPS like Sam and Blm since they help kill the mobs faster.

Healers in most games are classified as support roles. It should also be noted that all of the healers start out with a DPS spell at level 1, get a cure at 2, and don't get another until the 30s.

With a 4 person party archetype, its difficult to deviate away from Tank, Heal, DPS X2.
And if they create a role now for Support that was dedicated, in 8 man or higher raids, with only 1 job, it wouldn't work, so it would have to be optional to replace a DPS.

Getting ahead of everything anyway, as Blu is capped at 50 for now, but it would take a lot of revamping.

They certainly could give more diversity of spells 51-70 to Blu if they go that route however. If White Wind remains the same it would be busted with a 35k health Blu, while maybe not doable in true endgame content, in DF roulette it "could" replace a healer, especially in some of the lesser cure intensive dungeons. Not having an esuna option does make it a bit more difficult. I think a few more less situational combo spells, and some more variety of elements (for potential blu exclusive content) could be nice.

Also, give Blu angel whisper and every healer will curse it out XD

I want this job to work, After whm, blu is one of my favorite jobs, and it can truly shine in this game, they just need to tweak it a bit.

Blue makes me happy.