Your response right here is the post of the hour for me. Thank you... and +1.Quote:
Originally Posted by dotsforlife
The recent DDoS attack on FFXIV servers.
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10-26-2018, 12:48 PMRamesses
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10-26-2018, 12:50 PMSigma-AstraAhaaa, gotcha, sorry about the mix-up then. It was hard to figure out the context of your words and who it was aimed at exactly because I see that term being used for both sides of the fence in these kinds of arguments. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by dotsforlife
"You're an armchair tech because you think you're so smart!"
"No, you're an armchair tech for being so naive and ignorant!"
But, yea, you are 100% right that they're sheep if they think it's as easy as restarting a machine. -
10-26-2018, 12:59 PMdotsforlifeNo worries. People are quick around here (and in general) to misplace their ire. Not being educated on certain things doesn't help either. Less time lashing out with feelings and more time educating themselves would do them a world of good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
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10-26-2018, 01:01 PMSigma-AstraSound advice...and it's unfortunate that most people ignore common sense and good advice like yours. I work in a grocery store part-time aside my other job, so....the people not educating themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by dotsforlife
It speaks volumes to me, lol. -
10-26-2018, 01:07 PMhynaku
My suggestion is they temporary stop the deleveling in eureka, stop the drop out penalty for duties, and make it so don't loose your crafting mats when you get disconnected. Till these attacks stop.
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10-26-2018, 01:12 PMSigma-AstraYou can't just "temporarily" stop things already coded into the game because you're being inconvenienced, that's not how game design and coding works. You can't just "shut off" a certain part of the coding without causing a domino/snowball effect for everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
And in the case of DDoS, it's not worth re-working an entire stream of data and not even a good idea to be messing with the game like that while a DDoS is going on. They could open themselves to a security vulnerability. -
10-26-2018, 02:11 PMGeminaI don't know anything about this kind of stuff, but still know enough to know that SE isn't clinking wine glasses in toast to their subscribers not being able to play FFXIV. I even want to say that if I was Yoshi, I would make a public statement elaborating the issue and apologize for the inconvenience, but for all I know, the man can be in the middle of an 18-hour flight and has 500+ emails in his inbox, which maybe like 2% pertain to the DDos attacks. All from the peeps who need confirmation on how to respond to the attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dotsforlife
MMOs are not exempt from RL tribulations that affect our playtime. SE does a good job of letting all of us know in advance when servers will be down due to maintenance, so I find little reason to fault them for things like this. We need to return in kind the understanding they give us when they know they have to shut down playtime in order to perform necessary maintenance to keep the game running.
Yup, that's right. I am actually using downtime to justify our current downtime :D -
10-26-2018, 02:33 PMWyssahtynThere was a statement released on the 9th. Considering the DDoS attacks have been occurring intermittently since, I presume that the company sees little need to release another statement that would in essence say the same thing. At least for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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10-26-2018, 02:54 PMGeminaExactamundo! Don't get me wrong. I want to play too and sympathize with those who are frustrated, but I can't continuously try and shove a square peg into a round hole and expect a different result. I know it is in SE's best interest to keep the game up and running, and that is really all I need to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn
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10-26-2018, 03:06 PMDirwen
Mad I can't semi afk in Eureka to earn my tomes due to the DCs happening today in the middle of the train run.
Also one statement from weeks ago isn't enough to calm the masses. SE needs to show they care to alleviate the anxious crowd. Some pretty pixelated ingame reward to distract us be nice.
Make it a mount of a boxed server with a crack in it. -
10-26-2018, 03:17 PMGeminaA statement made now that says the exact same thing isn't going to do it either, and would actually infuriate the masses even more due to the problem not being resolved entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirwen
This is a pay to play game. Trust me, they care but I'll put in the request to send you over some beef skewers and funnel cakes while you wait. -
10-26-2018, 03:35 PMDirwenYea but if people complain to their faces and getting no reaction it's not a good sign either. If you give them an inch they'll take a mile as they say. I hate when something goes down and the bigwigs will always reply with "no comment" but in this case just downright being quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Also, I have high cholesterol so no beef skewers or funnel cakes for me. XD -
10-26-2018, 04:56 PMMarxam
Maybe this is a sign that SE needs to stop taking money from FFXIV and actually start putting some of it back? This is only going to get worse with more games become online only, server bandwidth needs to shared and more servers will need to be built. Luckily I was working so hopefully its back up after I post this.
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10-26-2018, 04:59 PMVahlnirI agree that the game needs way more funding than it clearly gets, but...this isn't something throwing money at the game can really solve. Other issues like actually good content and character creation? Sure! But DDoS attacks are extremely difficult to counter, especially on this scale. So...we just need to wait it out. Eventually whoever's behind it will get bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
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10-26-2018, 05:12 PMKageTokage
I got DC'd several times within a period of 20 minutes earlier today, which was particularly stressful because it happened just prior to the Southern Thanalan S rank spawning after a hour of FATE spamming.
Thankfully nobody touched the thing until all parties involved in getting it show up were present. -
10-26-2018, 05:30 PMWyssahtyn
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...b3b4a365873f53
Another statement from SE regarding the intermittent DDoS attacks was posted about an hour ago. -
10-26-2018, 06:09 PMNestamaMight wanna do some research on what a DDoS actually is and why they're difficult to prevent. Also, if the datacentres were truly crappy, then FFXIV would be crashing on an hourly basis the second the 500th person enters the game. I won't deny there is some latency that makes certain mechanics annoying to deal with (like Suzaku EX, but I learned how to side-step without getting hit by running into the flames), but that's not much of an issue if your GCD's aren't interrupting themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macleod
Or continue to live in denial. Your money, I don't care what you do. -
10-26-2018, 06:30 PMRyaz
Well, that explains the massive lag when I first logged on this afternoon. It got better, but I logged off before more attacks hit. FC mates couldn't get on tonight because the servers were constantly down.
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10-26-2018, 09:53 PMNyvara
It was so bad last night Adders were actually winning in frontlines!
/duck -
10-26-2018, 10:48 PMSigma-AstraAdders always win on my server, that or Maelstrom....it's when the Flames win that you kind of tilt your head towards the side like "What?", lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyvara
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10-26-2018, 11:28 PMSkivvyThat's been my experience too on our data center D: Flames seem to rarely win (that's my current GC), and this is why I always enter as a free agent :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
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10-27-2018, 12:10 AMPaladinleedsCan some mitigating measures be taken? Sure. However, given how easy it is to proxy yourself, or even copy the IP address of other people accessing the game (as in legit players), including spoofing their MAC address (think hardware ID), plus how a lot of ISPs use dynamic IP assignment, you cannot failsafe it. Bear in mind there has been DDoS attacks that have taken down some of the biggest and strongest networks, and you'll see that if someone is determined enough, no amount of protection is going to stop it. And as people said, these services are available for hire, so someone disgruntled by the game can order a DDoS attack on the servers, and they could pay for say like 50 years of daily attacks if they wanted to. DDoS attacks are very sophisticated as they use botnets to attack a server (basically, think thousands of PCs all attacking a server at the same time, with different IPs etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Macleod
Plus, if they're really determined, they can inject malicious code into SE's servers that when a player accesses it (say for example the login server), they get infected with that malicious code and their PC becomes a part of the botnet. PS4s are also susceptible to this if the malicious code is designed to exploit security flaws in the PS4. Trust me, it's a game of cat and mouse. Just gotta ride the storm and hope the person doesn't have an unending personal vendetta against Square Enix. -
10-27-2018, 01:03 AMAerlanaSo in your mind, DDOS on other games were done by not determined guys, or people bad at it. And only SE get a determined/good peep to do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinleeds
poooooor SE...
>_> -
10-27-2018, 01:08 AMPaladinleedsDepends on the technical competence of those orchestrating the DDoS attacks on those games (or how much money they're willing to throw at a DDoS network for hire), as well as how vindictive they are. If they're using run of the mill paid for DDoS attacks, then the malicious code etc in the servers won't be used. But if they create their own botnet to do it with, then yes, the malicious code in SE's lobby server etc is possible, in order to expand the botnet and set off virus checkers of those they can't take into the botnet, etc, to make people think FFXIV is a virus and will stop people supporting the game. I've done software development as a job in the past, and am a mostly technical person, so I know just how far it can go. As for how far it actually goes, depends on the person doing it. While what I am saying is indeed at the extreme end, it's showing just how far it can go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerlana
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10-27-2018, 01:13 AMAerlana
yes i understood what you said.
But when other game get far less DDOS matter than SE there is 2 solution
1) SE is on this point (like so much others...) in the way "spend less money, always less" and so... this
2) They are focused by a better/more determined guy or group of people.
... personnally i consider the matter is more SE side than the attackers. you consider the other way. The thing is no proof, on one side or the other. but the "SE victim" way is the one i can consider the less...
Really strange that the matter is far more there on this game than any other... -
10-27-2018, 01:19 AMPaladinleedsTruthfully, I actually think it's a bit of both. As I mentioned previously, there are mitigating strategies that can be applied (but aren't completely failsafe), and I do believe that SE could be doing more to handle this since I hear their "Technical limitations" excuse so much, I'm more surprised when they actually say they CAN do something. But Square Enix is a huge brand, and FFXIV is a very popular game, as well as being run by Japanese developers not western developers (unlike Blizzard, the main rival, which is a western development studio), so there's popularity as well as racist intentions potentially going on here further conflating the issue and making the attack at higher risk (as well as increased risk of higher potency).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerlana
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10-27-2018, 01:25 AMVrankylSee I don't know why everyone is thinking this has only happened to SE this bad. I remember the one holiday season where World of Warcraft was practically unplayable for weeks because of DDoS attacks, and World of Warcraft had far more resources to use to throw at it. Didn't stop the servers from constantly crashing until the culprits were caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerlana
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10-27-2018, 01:39 AMAndroir
Interesting. Since This doings here at the EU are illegal and they can get jailed.
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10-27-2018, 01:48 AMAerlanacould you link me some thing speaking of ddos doing game mass DC like we have here, during more than 1 week elsewhere else in lets say... 5 past years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrankyl
Lets not forget that, because you point wow... that SE get 2 more years experience at handling MMORPG (and i spoke about games not only wow or MMORPGs :-° LoL, CS etc )
Really, when i see wow, lol, CS, steam servers, twitter, or any big things that could be a target of choice to any DDOS attack... i have hard time finding anything that long... ... Some time yes, 1, 2, even 3 or 4 days. and i didnt cry the first week here. prefered patience...
but now... ... After ddos attack one year ago. And so much more thing to say about what they do to around servers (lets speak of how many month with the 4.1 latency matter? and when even some did continue have "call your ISP, not our matter anymore" . Hard to consider SE is now working on this matter seriously... -
10-27-2018, 02:17 AMVrankylThere is nothing you can do to prevent a DDoS attack. There are measures to take to prevent it from being catastrophic, which they have stated they are doing, but you cannot prevent nor stop a DDoS attack. Especially since these attacks aren't always directed at SE servers but the ISPs routing into those servers which SE can do nothing at all about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerlana
In regards to WoW in 2010 a man consistently launched DDoS attacks against WoW servers from February until March. There were also the Lizard Squad attacks that have hit Blizzard multiple times for weeks on end. Hell just in 2016 from August to September Battle.net itself was constantly being struck with DDoS taking multiple games down at a time. This also does not include the DDoS issues that World of Warcraft by itself suffered from November to December of 2014. It really just takes a simple google search. Though it's not common for these issues to be so prolonged, because the people behind them usually get bored or get caught for long term ones, they do happen. The SB launch was a huge mess for a number of reasons, not just DDoS, and that can be held against SE. This no so much. -
10-27-2018, 02:28 AMAndroir
If there is no way to stop them. Why there are so many companys which say that they can stop them?
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10-27-2018, 02:59 AMAerlanadid those things avoided people to play with decent latency? for 2014 i was on FFXIV so cant say, but i dont remember in WOTLK (2010) thing that make me unable to play... except with a matter with some ISP (free/SFR) that was part of blizzard fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrankyl
2016 , i did play all along, and again, no matter to play... not half of raid logging out each evening...
This is this i speak about... Is the game playable or should i have to forget most things i do everyday...
Else, thing like you point, there is also numerous on steam servers, LoL, and many others... i remember because i did saw the message about "sorry, we have a matter" but each time, i was able to play...
I really dont care if i was able to play because riot, valve, blizzard or anyelse did do a thing or another, it is not MY matter but THEIR matter. like SE matter is to have a service avaible for his customers.
And there was recently a big ddos focusing overwatch, but touching all game (because bnet is one block) and there cant say if overwatch stayed at least playable (probably wiht 100ms latency)...
And again, the first week we had matters (early october) i didnt mind, (angry yes... but not raging there, juste was patient) because a ddos cant be avoided... but then, you can fight against it, enough to make the game... playable...
Also i dont think we need a month free compensation (for now... ...) because it is "many" for what we have (for now) and i know compensation are not a thing they legally have to give us.
BUT fun fact : a company does not only have to do thing because it is "legally forced" ... but maybe i am the only one hoping some morality from SE... But why people are saying they are far better than EA so? dont understand... -
10-27-2018, 04:28 AMRaven2014One simply word: infrastructure. I can tell you there is one example of a company that will never suffer from DDOS attack: Amazon. They have a HUGE capacity. I think it's said that during holiday every 1 min they're down the company stands to lose 5mil or something crazy like that, so they always have more than enough to handle even Christmas traffic. They also have their own subsidize of cloud service, so they can rent out excess capacity to off set the cost. Amazon does get DDOS time to time, but it just shrug it all off. The last time there was a concert effort to ram up a sustained attack on Amazon for 48h ... and its server was just like "lol scrubs!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Androir
And ... how big is Amazon again? Because that's the kind of companies that can be considered safe from DDOS attack. I don't know what you mean by "many", because there certainly isn't that many. Either they're mega coporation, or some kind of back-end service provider with large enough capacity to spare, no one else is safe. In the end DDOS is brute force, and there is only so much efficient routing and coding can do, in the end it's simply a matter of outmuscle the attackers. -
10-27-2018, 04:36 AMwhiskeybravoBecause companies have a tendency to over-promise and under-deliverQuote:
Originally Posted by Androir
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10-27-2018, 08:31 AMNestama
A little something Yoshi-P said back on the 10th.
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A DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack overwhelms the target with an irregular amount of data, which causes servers and networks to become overloaded and cease to function properly. Because the irregular amounts of data are being sent from various sources all over the world, it is extremely difficult to trace or defend against an attacker.
For instance, imagine if an enormous number of people with fake tickets lined up for a concert. This would disrupt the workflow of the concert staff and prevent them from doing their actual tasks. Because a large number of people are coming from various locations at the same time, it would prove difficult to locate the person distributing the fake tickets or to prevent people with fake tickets from lining up beforehand.
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10-28-2018, 12:32 AMreiichiAmazon does get hit with DDoSes though. As does Google Compute. And most other hosting companies. Their mitigations are different though. Amazon has multiple datacenters with mirrored content for static files like images, video, scripts, etc. That's not often the case for a game server because the database overhead to duplicate content in different physical locations would have some pretty hefty overhead. Something like the Lodestone likely uses a CDN though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
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10-28-2018, 12:50 PMRamessesVery well said, and that was a great analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
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10-29-2018, 09:34 PMMaeroExactly this ^Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyvara