Non-binary option for characters, please?

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Now I'm offended because you're clearly the Lalafell here

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AETHEROCHEMICAL COMPOUND #666 IS CONFIDENTIAL HOW'D YOU FIND ABOUT IT

Well, I could never figure out any Lalafel gender, it's a pretty non-binary race.

No thanks. just keep it as is.

I sat here at my keyboard thinking how best to word a response to what is admittedly a complicated and very delicate issue. I literally spent thirty minutes rewriting this post over and over. Yet, ultimately, I feel like only one thing needs to be said. The smug wording of the original post makes it crystal clear that the intention here isn't to have an in-depth discussion in good faith.

you know i saw this thread and after reading this, i have to say i feel kind of bad for the Forum Mods who watch these threads, if one of you guys are here, do you guys just blank it out or get popcorn and read the comments,

to go slightly back on topic,

if this isn't a bait topic: the language used is for quick and easy contextual referencing to your character based on the sex chosen, which is translated from japanese and into two other languages, while 'they' could be used in a singular sense, ironically if you wanted a gender neutral term based on the time era of the words chosen (since they use alarum, goal and larboard which are archaic wordings ), you would be called "He" the "generic He" is a older gender neutral team, since He refers to the proper connotation of the word "man" which means "human" so if you wanted a gender neutral term ironically play as a male character then "he" would be gender neutral for the time period o3o
other examples of "generic he" can also be seen in referring to humanity as 'Mankind' or saying something is a massive step for the age of 'man' neither are masculine and are neutral to refer to the whole of humanity.

if this is a bait topic: why?

Eh.
4567890

I am also offended that there is no Apache attack helicopter option at the character select screen.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I can argue that in a world where we ride and fight alongside dragons, are the champions of the God Mothercrystals, where we summon and fight gods, adhering to the gender binary also does not make a very well told story. You yourself play a catgirl.

To clarify, I don't have numbers here how many people want this, and I'm rather certain that unless there's a huge outcry, the devs won't place this high on their priority list even if they do implement this. But we know that not everyone on the dev team works on the same things and they have pulled rabbits out of their hat as far as small yet meaningful QoLs go. I just disgree with the use of 'they' being so groundbreaking in storytelling. Did you know 'you' used to be plural-only as well? And look at where we are now.

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While it's true that the court T-V blend (use of the plural for figures of authority, just as a monarch would be more likely to answer with "we" rather than "I" in explaining his or her verdict in the same era) has occurred twice in English, it's worth noting that that clear-cut situational use never caused any wide-spread ambiguity. In transition, it modeled perfectly use of "sie" in German. And after the transition, our indexes lost only the equivalent of "du", "vous", or "tú" forms, not any distinct plural.

I also don't see what any of those fantasy elements would have to do with adhering to or exiting social binaries. Until such a binary is an actual story conflict, such that a wizard cannot embrace magic until having blended the apparently female and male halves of its source, or realizing that they're actually the same thing, the two are absolutely irrelevant to each other. No matter how real or fantastic the setting is, unless social binaries are a part, one is not relevant to the other.

And while I certainly wouldn't mind the addition of a third gender option for our simple class flags, unless such a conflict organically fits the story... I don't want it. I have enough issues just with "It's Allagans. It's always Allagans," and "Sinister figures behind literally everything. People can't be 'evil' for normal reasons. Old Gods/Zodiark." I certainly don't need a "Cus n+2 genders" plot-twist forced in there.

On the other hand, give me a race in the Sharlayan Mystlands were believes literally bend reality, changing beastmen between various forms and abilities and, naturally, genders, and I'd probably love the hell of it just because that actually would be consistent: the point there would be how pervasive, how deep, how unlimited, that concept goes. But that wouldn't have anything to do with aiding gender or genderless immersion; it'd have to do with the story of those people in particular.

Oh.... no....


You see, when it comes to things like cross dressing or gay marriage, those things are choices, and I would go on record saying that most gamer's and even just people who actively play XIV and not many other games, would respect others choices about their own lives.

When you decide to put in something such as a non-binary gender, what you're providing isn't a choice, but a statement. It's a statement that says "my version of reality is correct and yours is not".

It's one thing to have in a fictional universe as a matter of creative effort, and another thing entirely to have as a matter of political recognition or real world acknowledgement. I can think of one story in particular in which humanoid beings are capable of fluctuating between male and female as they wish with scientific principal to back it up, and that was acceptable as it had no reliance on the real world to make it such a plot point.

I play as myself in XIV. I named my character after myself and modeled it after myself. I can understand the desire to do so, while I doubt you've actually put effort into doing the same I recognize the lack of satisfaction in never being able to do such a thing. I play many games, and in most of those games I am unable to model or name my character, and at those times I take the perspective of the character that I'm playing rather than myself. I would suggest that you do the same in this regard. Playing as yourself is not the ultimate goal of video games, experiencing what you can't experience in the real world is much closer to the ultimate goal.

I share the same sentiment as some others here as well. Frankly put I'm sick of politics as a whole. I spent way too much of my time on it within the last couple of years, that at this moment in my life I want to escape from it, and FFXIV is a good way for me to do that. I'd really rather FFXIV not be infected with politics like that. The "option" you present for us is the exact opposite of an option for players such as myself, which I assume constitutes many more people than what would accommodate for the "choice" that you provide.

No. This thread is garbage.

For the record, as a spouse of someone that's at least partially off the binary + personally part of an oft misunderstood minority myself (asexuality), I totally get genderless/nonbinary being a legitimate thing.



All I'm saying is that it's still not the job of this game or pretty much any other game to cater to those minorities. Trans/NB/etc stuff may simply not be a thing in the world of this game, and nor does it have to be, particularly when it doesn't fit any particular critical narrative of the story. It's sort of how I will never expect, nor do I feel there should be, any openly asexual-presenting character in the game. There just isn't any reason for there to be one, and I'd rather they not just shoehorn one in there for the sake of "diversity!" like some other games, TV shows, movies, etc. have taken to doing lately (sometimes, it feels like, at the cost of actual storytelling ability)

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

you know i saw this thread and after reading this, i have to say i feel kind of bad for the Forum Mods who watch these threads, if one of you guys are here, do you guys just blank it out or get popcorn and read the comments,

to go slightly back on topic,

if this isn't a bait topic: the language used is for quick and easy contextual referencing to your character based on the sex chosen, which is translated from japanese and into two other languages, while 'they' could be used in a singular sense, ironically if you wanted a gender neutral term based on the time era of the words chosen (since they use alarum, goal and larboard which are archaic wordings ), you would be called "He" the "generic He" is a older gender neutral team, since He refers to the proper connotation of the word "man" which means "human" so if you wanted a gender neutral term ironically play as a male character then "he" would be gender neutral for the time period o3o
other examples of "generic he" can also be seen in referring to humanity as 'Mankind' or saying something is a massive step for the age of 'man' neither are masculine and are neutral to refer to the whole of humanity.

if this is a bait topic: why?

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Rumor has it that @ff14forums_txt is run by a mod. I can't remember where I read that, though.

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Originally Posted by Vaelin

I can already anticipate how “controversial” and “SJW” this post will be received by some as (God, when society in about 100 years from now looks back on this and how the word “SJW” is used as a slur for people who ask for more options of self expression, they’ll facepalm so hard.), but as a non-binary tax and sub-paying adult human, would there be any way you could (Square, that is) implement a gender neutral option, maybe if not on the character creation screen, then tucked away in the settings somewhere? (To avoid offending many of those who cry at the sight of *gasp* more than 2 genders!)

I look forward to the original remarks about Attack Helicopters and god knows what else being used as an argument against more options, but to the MANY gender-nonconforming players of this game (I’m sure you’ve all seen how many LGBT* FC’s there are), even just having one catch-all option outside of the gender binary would be so wonderful. I spend an ungodly amount of money on Fantasia due to being pretty fed up of being referred to as male or female constantly in basically every cutscene. (I probably shouldn’t have said that, you’re making a killing off me Square, I’ve probably funded all the expantions at this rate) What do you all think? Dangerous question to ask online, especially here, but I’ll risk it.

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Gamers are sociopaths when it comes to treating people with respect, so just remember that any perceived slight at this suggestion is because they have a closed or empty mind.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While this is a nice ideal, the pragmatic limitations are on the technical side - and are probably the biggest reason your request is unlikely to see fruition. From a technical standpoint, options are anything but free. Particularly when it wasn't in the original design spec. (Perhaps in the next FF MMO?)

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This is probably not too trivial to implement, it just would just make things hugely confusing for the non-English locales since English doesn't have gendered language where as French is rather heavily gendered. If we were able to create a truely "gender neutral" character at creation, ie, women characters with no chest/butt, allow facial hair options, men characters with ... you know what they're probably close to neutral enough without adding a bust and butt slider. That's still a trivial tunable, rather than creating entirely separate gender-specific gear models.

The reason people ask for such things is because they want a character that represents themselves as they are rather than playing a game with a fixed set of options. It's only been relatively recently that any MMO even allows for gay marriage, so games are just a decade behind where society finds things acceptable.

The trouble really is that NB, TG, and various other agender terms is that there is zero agreement on anything but singular "they" for language. If you don't know what someone is, you dehumanize them by calling them "it", and insult them by using any gender-determinate language, especially after they tell you what they want to be called. Voice chat adds an entire additional layer of sociopathy, and it ultimately makes any MMO far more toxic for it. If it were possible for the game to do voice analysis and then turn that into it's own character-specific speech synthesis, I think that would be removed as a toxicicity barrier.

Anyway I don't see any changes in this regard happening to FFXIV, not because of lack of interest, or developer inertia, but that there just isn't really any need for it, since the underlying motive (people identifying as agender, non-binary, transgender, etc) for it hasn't reached a similar level of acceptance in conventional media.

https://hornet.com/stories/ap-non-bi...nder-pronouns/

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But now, the AP Style Guide is permitting the use of singular “they” for people of non-binary gender.

The style guide now reads:

In stories about people who identify as neither male nor female or ask not to be referred to as he/she/him/her: Use the person’s name in place of a pronoun, or otherwise reword the sentence, whenever possible. If they/them/their use is essential, explain in the text that the person prefers a gender-neutral pronoun. Be sure that the phrasing does not imply more than one person.

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So the easiest way for the game to adapt, is to really just do what it's been doing all along and either referring to the WoL as WoL or the player's name, depending if it's a voiced or unvoiced scene, and use the players name instead of a pronoun even when they're being referred to in third person or not-present.

Retrofitting the existing Engish dialog is probably not that trivial, but there's probably a lot of flavor text that goes (player's pronoun) where it can be replaced with (player's name) except where someone has specific kind of 'tic that was phonetically localized. I'm not sure if there are any, but I know that some text in the game is presented different depending on your race, gender or GC.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Gamers are sociopaths when it comes to treating people with respect, so just remember that any perceived slight at this suggestion is because they have a closed or empty mind.

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Do you not realize that you just not only insulted a large and generalized group of individuals with little to no substantial evidence to back up your ridiculous notion and claims, but yourself as well in the same time and manner?

It's rather uncalled for....and a whole lot of other things that I can't express on the OF unfortunately.

Furthermore....because I missed this little gem...

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Originally Posted by Vaelin

That’s good for you. If only life was that simple for everyone we’d live in a world where we were all cut out clones of each other and despised anything out of the box.

More options > always good. How does being restrictive help anyone? It doesn’t, it only excludes.

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Not sure how non-binary terms not being used inside of a video game is exactly restricting you in real life. If you lose sleep over this, I think you might need some assistance on the matter.

[Laughs in smug]

"Internet historians will look back upon my self righteous post on an anime game and totally agree with me."

There's a point in one's life where your degree of separation from reality makes you say stupid shit you'll regret in only 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Vaelin

I can already anticipate how “controversial” and “SJW” this post will be received by some as (God, when society in about 100 years from now looks back on this and how the word “SJW” is used as a slur for people who ask for more options of self expression, they’ll facepalm so hard.), but as a non-binary tax and sub-paying adult human, would there be any way you could (Square, that is) implement a gender neutral option, maybe if not on the character creation screen, then tucked away in the settings somewhere? (To avoid offending many of those who cry at the sight of *gasp* more than 2 genders!)

I look forward to the original remarks about Attack Helicopters and god knows what else being used as an argument against more options, but to the MANY gender-nonconforming players of this game (I’m sure you’ve all seen how many LGBT* FC’s there are), even just having one catch-all option outside of the gender binary would be so wonderful. I spend an ungodly amount of money on Fantasia due to being pretty fed up of being referred to as male or female constantly in basically every cutscene. (I probably shouldn’t have said that, you’re making a killing off me Square, I’ve probably funded all the expantions at this rate) What do you all think? Dangerous question to ask online, especially here, but I’ll risk it.

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Play a Lalafell. They’re the easiest gender neutral race to play as. Aside from voice, I have a hard time distinguishing male and female lalafells some of the time.

Madness, our old friend!

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

Madness, our old friend!

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I've come to talk with you again.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

It's true. In 100 years from now, they will see you as the couragious warrior who fought for more gender neutral terms and applaud you for such bravery among a crowd who mostly doesn't give a shit.

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Their going to remember this as the Gender generation were everyone was concerned about their privates or someone elses. Get enough of this Gender BS in the news I really wish people would let it go..

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I've come to talk with you again.

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Cause a vision softly creeping.

There are only 2 genders: male and female.

the system is fine. :)

Woke: Gender isn't real.

Broke: Eleven pages of "Lol two genders."

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Originally Posted by xaventh

No. This thread is garbage.

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I agree actually.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Snip

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Japanese isn't gendered? What are you on about? They have a ton of different ways just to refer to oneself, let alone others. Wait just a second... World:Goblin?

https://i.imgur.com/2YyPlO7.jpg

I realise people have strong opinions, but it still boggles me how spiteful some of these posts are.

Even if you disagree with the idea of it yourself, you can still respect that the other person truly thinks of themself as the gender they claim to be, and address them in the way they ask to be addressed.

I also find it very hard to believe that people would "choose" to identify in a way that opens them up to such abuse, if they didn't really believe it to be true.

There's a lot more I could write. Anecdotes. People I know. A history of how I've felt about the issue.

But the core is: I know some of these people, and they're just people. They're not something 'other' that's less deserving of respect.

I don't know what to say, but I don't want to say nothing.

It makes me feel awful to see people talk like they do in this thread.

You can already select the gender of the character.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Woke: Gender isn't real.

Broke: Eleven pages of "Lol two genders."

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Scientifically speaking there are only 2 confirmed genders in humans. The lack of gender is not possible. The word gender is an interesting word, as folks seem to confuse what it's used for. Gender is primarily there to assign masculine and feminine traits upon things. This can be creatures or objects. To be gendered is to be put into a Male or female category based on characteristics ranging from the biological to the physical with biology being prioritized. The current fad of misconstruing the word to fit personal ideologies has been largely rebuffed by the populace at large. This has more or less caused those like yourself and OP to adopt a humorously overblown ego as this idea has been thrown around a number of internet echo chambers where this sentiment hasn't been rightly challenged. When presented with evidence or logic the discussion shuts down and turns into either derision or cold silence.

SE won't do it. Not because it might be a controversial subject to many people (remember XIV is a game played by players in many countries and continents) but because the game itself is limited to crawl.
The character creation screen is too limited and won't allow any other extra option unless SE overhauls its graphic engine and develop a major update to the core of the game.
Something that I can't see them doing any time soon.
What they could do however is the introduction of gender-less new playable race. Though I don't know if people who want something like this will agree on the appearance of this race and still they will have to rewrite many quest lines as the game still refers to you as he/she despite how neutral it is.
It's certainly not a thing that might ever happen. There are other more burning priorities.
RP can help you circumvent the issue as many of the NPCs you talk with in game don't know what you are inside your pants.
It's lore friendly.

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Originally Posted by kamenkuro

Scientifically speaking there are only 2 confirmed genders in humans. The lack of gender is not possible. The word gender is an interesting word, as folks seem to confuse what it's used for. Gender is primarily there to assign masculine and feminine traits upon things. This can be creatures or objects. To be gendered is to be put into a Male or female category based on characteristics ranging from the biological to the physical with biology being prioritized. The current fad of misconstruing the word to fit personal ideologies has been largely rebuffed by the populace at large. This has more or less caused those like yourself and OP to adopt a humorously overblown ego as this idea has been thrown around a number of internet echo chambers where this sentiment hasn't been rightly challenged. When presented with evidence or logic the discussion shuts down and turns into either derision or cold silence.

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Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

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Not that concrete, sex and gender were pretty interchangeable terms up until relatively recently.

There are only 2 sexes and intersex people don't change that. Intersex people have a medical condition, not a third sex.

This is why we can't have nice things in life and you thought it would be good to bring this to the only calming , less polluted place of recreation we still have.

There has to always be someone to play the "victim" card and the entitlement "me, me, me" .
I agree with more options, this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by cougarel

This is why we can't have nice things in life and you thought it would be good to bring this to the only calming , less polluted place of recreation we still have.

There has to always be someone to play the "victim" cad and the entitlement "me, me, me" .
I agree with more options, this is not the case.

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I think the ones feeling victimized are the ones who are opposed to something that has literally no effect on them.

Yes, that's it, not because that it is literally nonsense this wave.
Also there wouldn't be a direct impact on me or others, but the message is pretty straightforward and again, this is a game , it shouldn't be subjected to real life and this has been horsed to dead.

dear god, no #GetWokeGoBroke

stupid weekend bait threads like this are the reason why the devs will never take the western playerbase serious. (And also why I don't want to associate with LGBT+ despite being trans)
There are only 2 genders, stop trying to compensate your lack personality with made-up special snowflake terms. But at least /v/ will have fun with this thread for a while...

Or they change the word "Gender" in character creation to "sex" ...done.
As many genders as there may be, there are only 2 biological sexes. Can't blame anyone for adressing someone a certain way depending on their sex.

But yeah.. as said above, its an awefully small minority and while it might seem easy as the most logical way of their system would be to have the text adjusted per choice thus meaning adding one more choice and selecting a different word there would work.
However i am unsure on how many sentences they have whereby replacing any gender-specific words by a default replacement will make it grammatically not correct anymore. It might be alot more work than we expect it to be.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Japanese isn't gendered? What are you on about? They have a ton of different ways just to refer to oneself, let alone others. Wait just a second... World:Goblin?

https://i.imgur.com/2YyPlO7.jpg

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Japanese has, and uses very frequently, a lot of gender neutral terms. You are probably thinking of あたし、僕 and 俺 as terms to refere others or the different ways to call your siblings, but in the end Japanese is very gender neutral. You can actually see it in the tales of the storm, in the english version they included a "The WoL is Male/Female" option, something completely missing in the Japanese versions because it isn't needed seeing that the WoL is refered to as 英雄さん, Hero-san. Granted in the MSQ the WoL certainly is refered to as 彼 or 彼女, he or she at times.

All in all I think the whole debate is very unfair. This is a Japanese game and they simply don't have the same sensibilities as westeners in this regard because their language just doesn't work the same way English does. Demanding to be catered to from another culture in that way is perplexing to me.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

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I literally just explained everything in clear and concise terms. Did you read what I wrote? Gender is very simple concept. Anatomy and chromosomes are just a branch of biology. There is no one devoid of sexual characteristics. You're not really making a compelling statement. You're simply attempting to rebuff mine with faulty talking points. Gender is very real. It's why can refer to ships as women or divide the complicated nuances of plant reproduction. To gender something you generally follow a set structure. Biology>physical make up in absence of biology>opinion. First would be a human, second would be a humanoid robot, and third would be a rubik's cube. The first has characteristics that are clearly defined. The second mimics these characteristics. The third has no defining traits and can be given a gender at someone's discretion because at that point it does not matter. Your idea of gender conditioning is a reference to social gender identities which is where we give actions gender. That also changes place to place and falls into the third category of gendered by opinion. Your inclusion of outliers also does not render gender moot. As these outliers are biologically 2 genders. This is not in any way a killing blow to the definition of gender. In fact it only proves further that biology is the main deciding factor in it's categorical duties.

Anyhow I rambled on. Lemme just summarize. Sex is exclusive to humans and any other biological entity. Gender is used to categorize everything and anything into either masculine or feminine with biology being prioritized in this categorization. To deny the idea of gender is to deny the idea of sex as they are almost identical. Gender simply covers a broader spectrum.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I realise people have strong opinions, but it still boggles me how spiteful some of these posts are.

Even if you disagree with the idea of it yourself, you can still respect that the other person truly thinks of themself as the gender they claim to be, and address them in the way they ask to be addressed.

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Well I mean, it's mostly the garbage way the OP decided to present their argument and responses. They're either trying to troll with some low-quality bait or they lack more self-awareness than Neil Breen.

I've seen people in this community make all sorts of inane "suggestions/requests" and people tend to rebuff them with general civility--so long as the OP doesn't come off like a complete berk.

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Originally Posted by kamenkuro

I literally just explained everything in clear and concise terms. Did you read what I wrote? Gender is very simple concept. Anatomy and chromosomes are just a branch of biology. There is no one devoid of sexual characteristics. You're not really making a compelling statement. You're simply attempting to rebuff mine with faulty talking points. Gender is very real. It's why can refer to ships as women or divide the complicated nuances of plant reproduction. To gender something you generally follow a set structure. Biology>physical make up in absence of biology>opinion. First would be a human, second would be a humanoid robot, and third would be a rubik's cube. The first has characteristics that are clearly defined. The second mimics these characteristics. The third has no defining traits and can be given a gender at someone's discretion because at that point it does not matter. Your idea of gender conditioning is a reference to social gender identities which is where we give actions gender. That also changes place to place and falls into the third category of gendered by opinion. Your inclusion of outliers also does not render gender moot. As these outliers are biologically 2 genders. This is not in any way a killing blow to the definition of gender. In fact it only proves further that biology is the main deciding factor in it's categorical duties.

Anyhow I rambled on. Lemme just summarize. Sex is exclusive to humans and any other biological entity. Gender is used to categorize everything and anything into either masculine or feminine with biology being prioritized in this categorization. To deny the idea of gender is to deny the idea of sex as they are almost identical. Gender simply covers a broader spectrum.

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"Gender is real and that's why it can be assigned to anything and everything like something that isn't innate almost as if it were a human construct." ~Literally you not seeing how you contradict yourself.

You can type paragraphs and paragraphs all you want, you'll still be wrong, even poking holes in your own arguments, but somehow unable to see it. Like how is a boat female despite having literally no traits that can be described as feminine. Do you see a woman wearing pants and get absolutely tilted because "dresses are for girls, pants are for boys?"

Plant reproduction and sexual reproduction in general refers to sex which has nothing to do with gender because one doesn't need an arbitrary title to reproduce, they need functioning sex organs.

Loosen the MAGA hat and read a book, holy. It's not hard.

Nobody cares about your gender meat popsicle! Learn how to play your job instead.