Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Kaldaka

Kicking for failure to meet other standards isn't listed under reasons to kick, to my knowledge doing so is reportable (Or at least used to be).
If a whole party is suffering, they can leave as individuals or vote abandon. Further more they could also talk to each other and solve it like adults.

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Kicking for "difference in playstyle" is a legit reason to kick someone - so as long as you're not insulting the person in question, you can remove them from a party for making mistakes, even in DF (when you set up your own PF you set the rules anyways and if someone doesnt meet your standards, you can always remove them - again: without being a jerk about it, of course).

If the whole party is suffering and its clear as day to everyone whos fault that is, why should the time of 3/7 (and in rare cases: 23) people be wasted or why should someone take the 30 minute penalty, when the whole dungeon could easly be completed with a competent person?
Even more so, when advice was given and the "bad player" still didnt act on it.
I actually had a mute (and undergeared...) bard in The Burn lately. They werent using songs, they weren communicating, they werent reacting to anything that we said in chat. The rest of the group - me (pld), my boyfriend (BLM) and a friend of ours (WHM) - did absolutly fine and we would have probably been able to clear the dungeon despite that bard not having the faintest idea of how to play at level 70 and ignoring polite and friendly advice/requests to make use of his basic abilities.

Why should we tolerate such behaviour? And why should one of us get punished for it by leaving the dungeon?
If the majority decides "I'd rather not play with this person", why should that person remain in the dungeon instead of the majority of players who are perfectly fine with finishing the run together?

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

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There’s a difference between poor performance due to being a brand new player to FFXIV and poor performance in high-end content, which you see far more often than not. And once you hit level 70, you are no longer considered new to this game. You’ve progressed to endgame, and you need to start learning your role instead of just yoloing it. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Kaldaka

So you'd rather sit there, bully someone until they kick/report you, than either take a penalty OR put up with it for a temporary amount of time? (Hoping your answer is No)
I'm quite convinced players ended up like this because they don't even play the game for the most part anymore. They boost their chars from the store, followed by face plunging into the PoTD/HoH.
Regardless of whatever method they took to get there, they still have the right to suck and unless they ask for help/I offer them guidance without being a tosser about it (and they accept), there is simply no reason for interaction (unless you're talking in general - the weather/lunch/how salty people on the forum are being today).

No half decent human being is going to willingly put the stick up their backsides and start raging at some innocent bystander they've never met before and are 90% likely to never meet again. Right?
Gets you arrested and/or banned from places IRL.

Get me? :)

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As others have said, I don't advocate bullying. But I should be able to hold you accountable in a reasonable context and manner.

Players not using their main asset as part of their job should be questioned and depending on which content we're doing, it can be anywhere from "Can you please cast dots or use songs?" to "Are you seriously trolling us or just being purposefully bad?"

The issue is, as OP made clear, is that our first recourse should be making the assumptions she made in her post.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

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Most people arent talking about "new players" though - they're talking about players who reached the maximum level of the current expansion and are trying their hands on current endgame dungeons/raids/trials.

At this point your so called "new player" went through about 200 instances and even more hours of playing the game. They're not new anymore.

New players dont annoy me (and I think its the same for a lot of other people) - specially not the ones being vocal about it, asking for advice and taking it.
Lazy people annoy the hell out of me. People who despite playing for hundreds of hours and having seen mechanics at least 20 times, not having figured out what to do and if you give them advice or an explantion or ask them to do stuff a certain way, get defensive or aggressive and do exactly what you did here: Telling me that they PAY THEIR SUB AND ARE THEREFOR ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
They're not. This is a game that requires you to work as a team, and yes at a certain point it requires you to know how to do your job.
Past level 50 the excuse "I'm new!" doesnt fly anymore when its such basic things as tanks tanking, healers healing and dps knowing their basic rotation(s).

We're not talking about the level 16 sprout in Sastasha, who doesnt know what to do.
We're talking about the level 70 bard in The Burn (latest dungeon) who isnt using their DoTs or songs (both key-skills of a bard) - thats not "being new", thats "being bad" or "not caring". And if they dont care, I dont care for them.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Most people arent talking about "new players" though - they're talking about players who reached the maximum level of the current expansion and are trying their hands on current endgame dungeons/raids/trials.

At this point your so called "new player" went through about 200 instances and even more hours of playing the game. They're not new anymore.

New players dont annoy me (and I think its the same for a lot of other people) - specially not the ones being vocal about it, asking for advice and taking it.
Lazy people annoy the hell out of me. People who despite playing for hundreds of hours and having seen mechanics at least 20 times, not having figured out what to do and if you give them advice or an explantion or ask them to do stuff a certain way, get defensive or aggressive and do exactly what you did here: Telling me that they PAY THEIR SUB AND ARE THEREFOR ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
They're not. This is a game that requires you to work as a team, and yes at a certain point it requires you to know how to do your job.
Past level 50 the excuse "I'm new!" doesnt fly anymore when its such basic things as tanks tanking, healers healing and dps knowing their basic rotation(s).

We're not talking about the level 16 sprout in Sastasha, who doesnt know what to do.
We're talking about the level 70 bard in The Burn (latest dungeon) who isnt using their DoTs or songs (both key-skills of a bard) - thats not "being new", thats "being bad" or "not caring". And if they dont care, I dont care for them.

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I wish I could put this whole post in my signature so I could just point at it from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Kaldaka

������ What's a mute bard?
And why would you be playing with someone that long if you don't like how they play?

(Ice maging is hillarious. Should try it in something like Garuda hm or somewhere Ice 1, Ice 2, Ice 3, FREEEEZE - got half the comms assuming from the people who noticed lol)

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A mute bard is a bard that doesnt sing. One would hope that by the time someone hits 70 they figured out that they should be rotating through them...but they'd be disappointed. I told them to read a guide and we booted them after Rabnasty's 2nd boss. As half the party agreed with a a mute bard being a waste of a slot, the vote went through and we got a replacement that did well enough.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

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Eating an unfamiliar mechanic because you are new is understandable, if not expected.
Mistiming your newest skills in a leveling dungeon is is understandable, if not expected.
Not using your core abilities in Alphascape 3 will get you a boot at the 5 min mark and no amount of "ThINK o F THE nEWBIEs!!!1!" should sway that.

https://i.imgur.com/Y4Lj0Wd.gif

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And I'm telling you, your example is laughably absurd, especially given the context I responded to. By your logic, someone running the purple marker into the stack in o12n did nothing wrong. After all, "it's only a game." People have no right to be annoyed a basic mechanic that everyone should be aware of by level 70 just wiped the entire group. A less obvious example would be the DPS yelling at the tank for aggro issues yet when asked if they used Diversion, they respond with "You're a tank! I shouldn't have to!!" This is essentially telling the tank "cater to me because I can't be bothered to press a button which impacts my rotation in no way whatsoever."

So no, it isn't I who needs further clarification...

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

You've utterly failed at reproducing my logic, but congratulations on creating a square in four spaces: the post.

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I would like to see you respond to the Bold part of Bourne_Endeavors quote. Can you explain to me in what way dropping a mechanic on the party that wipes them no matter how topped up their health is, is sub optimal play rather than just doing it wrong? I'm legitimately curious as to how you feel about that situation.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is ridiculous why don't you just stop playing If new players annoy you. Expectations? The point in doing raids and dungeons are to progress the game maybe instead of expecting someone else to know something maybe you get off your high horse remember when you first played the game. Did you know all the dungeons and cycles NO YOU DIDNT. By all the posts so far I've ready is Damn the New Player because he/she does know anything.
Thank goodness SE does not base sales off of arrogant "know it all" who bash a game that you PAY FOR!!!!!! Good grief have some fun with the game. Lighten the hell up

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If you're new, you're in some of the first dungeons, and you don't know what you're doing, that's expected. New people will not know some things, and that's okay. You cannot be any more bad at a game than when you were level 1 only just starting.

The difference is, what do you do from there? This is why WoW seems to suffer the "same issue" despite even Blizzard stating that the playerbase over there has been getting better and better. it HAS gotten better and better, but that's for the top people. There are players that will seem to do everything in their power to not learn a thing. A level 70 in Suzaku is not a level 1 that just started the game. They've leveled. They've done content. They've seen some of these moves already.

That's the difference. Do you want to stay at the same skill level of a level 1, or try to improve? You wanna know my expectation in an expert roulette? The tank has kept threat. The healer let nobody die. The dps at least knows what single target 1 2 3 is. Yes, I am even stating that I don't even expect dps to aoe 10+ mobs anymore because it's so rare.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I agree - I don't think anyone should be kicking anyone in DF - you leave or you stick it out.
But the problem of not holding people to account - or at the very least asking people to have a very basic grasp of how things should work - bleeds into every part of the game.
Personally I've not seen anyone behave horrendously in the DF - anecdotal and of course I know it does happen. But I think it's a huge leap to say questioning a BLM as to why they can't cast their basic rotation is on the same level as threatening to kill them irl or something equally foolish, for example.
I just don't think it's a massive problem, or at least to the extent some people feel it is.
I know it's kind of a wash to say 'Internet get used to it' or similar, but really, bad people exist and good people have a bad day occasionally. But it happens, in all onlne activities.
I think we shouldn't be conflating questioning bad play with internet harassment.

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I’ve seen those situations, I had a friend who was new to DRK and someone in the party kept going on about how he was a crap player (using more friendly terms here), for tanking in grit.

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Originally Posted by Remus

What's with this generation trying to find ways to say people underperforming or being lazy in any activity is fine?

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Fixed that.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Fixed that.

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Was there really a point in that? Besides to be rude to a group of people?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

1. Are they a new player?

2. Did they recently change their UI/Binds or both?

3. Are they having a bad day or are they feeling sick?

Could be any of these things or more preventing someone from performing well. and to be fair most of the time I find it is.

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1) You can't be a bad player if you're new because you have 3 buttons to press and standing in the fire won't kill you (mostly). At higher levels where you start to die from fire you're not new anymore.
2) you re-learn your new keybind order rotation on the dummy, doesn't take so long for your muscle memory to adjust. One doesn't go change his whole UI and then enter ultimate a minute later.
3) Then you should sleep, I actually had a fever last week so after only one kill of Suzaku ex with friends I went off because I couldn't concentrate instead of you know wiping all the time and wasting their times.
As a word of advice, whenever you are sick enough that you cannot concentrate (fever for example) it's actually bad to play games, it can often increase your headache and/or makes your fever worse. You should be resting / laying down if you can't concentrate, watching something is like the only thing you should be doing if you're bored and can't sleep in such condition.
pretty much what I did last week, instead of wasting peoples time I was in bed for several days and watched netflix whenever I couldn't sleep or was bored.

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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Unskilled new player =/= lazy player. There's a huge difference. That's what a lot of people are getting at and nothing more. Now, some people are going to be lazy regardless and there's no changing that.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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The game has plenty of students.

By level 70 though, you should be able to play your job at least semi competently. You should know what aoe is and when to use it, your basic rotation, what genreal recycled mechanics do. And if you don't you should ask or look up guildes. Nobody's expecting perfection in expert roulette, but people do want competency and effort.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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If you had read the posts, then you would realize we’re not talking about a level 15 sprout new to FFXIV in Sastasha—we’re talking about level 70 players that start venturing into endgame content, and how they should know what they’re doing when they do so.

Having to carry a BLM doing 2,000 DPS in something like V12N just because “lol this is how I want to play deal with it” is unacceptable.
Having a healer who cannot keep the raid alive in V11N is unacceptable.
Having a tank that cannot hold aggro on a boss is unacceptable.
Having a person who stacks an AOE in a stacking mechanic instead of running off with it and killing the entire raid is unacceptable.
Doing these same things in an Extreme primal or a Savage raid even more so.

If you are venturing into endgame content that requires a specific level of skill, then yes, you should have the specific level of skill it is asking for. Again, we aren’t talking about baby sprouts in leveling dungeons. Go back and re-read the posts again, because you clearly missed that key element of context.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Nobody's expecting perfection in expert roulette, but people do want competency and effort.

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QTF.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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Since you're a monk, at least your "main class" is listed as one, Allow me to give you the expectation I have for end game dungeons.

You press More than bootshine. you at least attempt a positional every now and again.

^Can you do that? If no, you're part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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To answer your first question: I play because I enjoy it. I like the lore and the story of this game, I like the music and the dances that the more challenging fights are. I like to play together with friends who sadly dont live around the corner, so we get together ingame.
I play for fun, not to boost my ego - if thats what you're implying.
But "fun" to me isnt just lol'ing about, not caring about anything or anyone else around me in a semi-social enviroment. Playing for fun doesnt mean that I dont wanna win, of course I do!
So playing with people who are either actively hindering that (the chance to win) or display an attitude of not caring about their other party-members, for example by playing extremly subpar, isnt fun to me.

In regards to your second question: Yes, after running a good chunck of the over 200 instances this games offers, a lot of them being mandatory for MSQ-progression or to unlock current endgame-content, I expect you to be able to perform the basics of your job and the gameplay in general (stackmarker, dodging, "turn around" - the usual stuff). I still dont expect you to play at "my" skilllevel, I expect you to play at a skilllevel thats acceptable of a level 70 character.
Its no different from a solo-game, really - most solo-games will start you off easy and get more and more complex and difficult while you progress. So you improve and learn how to deal with the new stuff the game is throwing at you - but here, in an MMO-enviroment, you can just drop that ball and have someone else pick it up for you.

Which actually fits in quite nicely with your last point - again, I'm not sure how to interpret that, but I have a few ideas:
Having everyone believe that they're a master at their class is actually a HUGE problem this game has - and thats related to the terrible feedback you're getting. Again: In a solo-game, if you havent learned how to play when approaching the endgame, you'll lose and hit a brick wall and the game is telling you "Nope, you gotta improve". Here... if you clear a dungeon it could very well be because you got 3 skilled team-members. I just got out of yet another expert-roulette with a silent-bard who didnt use his songs or dots for about 50% of the dungeon. But we cleared the dungeon anyways and he'll never know.
...because here comes my favorite pet pevee: As I already mentioned, most people get defensive when you give advice and pull out the "you dont pay my sub!"-card. So a lot of the "masters" (master in the sense of teacher now) have given up, because the students dont want to study or learn or improve.
"Bad players" would be far less of a problem if they'd only listen (please read that with Suzakus voice).

Someone who needs to learn (even stuff they should have learned by now), but displays the will to do so, shows that they want to improve and takes advice wont be an issue (at least not for me) in 95% of the content (the expection being content like EX-primals and Savage, content that requires you to know your job before learning the encounter).

I'm really not asking for much when I ask someone at level 70 to know their base-rotation and some fundamental mechanics that have been introduced and used time and time again. Or, at the very least, if they cant do that, to take advice and put that into action.
"No students" is excatly the problem I'm having with "bad players" - they're bad because they dont wanna be students.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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https://memestatic3.fjcdn.com/commen...b58f02f345.jpg

I only get mad at bad players when it affects me. It's one of the big reasons why I absolutely abhor enrage timers. Heck, it might be the only reason I hate enrage timers. I just play the game to get in there, kill stuff, and get loot. I don't care what someone's skill level is as long as they don't get me killed. But the moment you start infringing on my time and wasting it by dying or doing so low it triggers the enrage timer--you better be prepared for a talking to!

I don't even mind slow tanks/healers in 4 man duties. New to the game? Pull one group at a time. I don't care. I just want to play the game and not die. Don't get me killed and we all kosher. I don't care if it takes longer. I play to have fun. Pull slow!

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Originally Posted by JackHatchet

I only get mad at bad players when it affects me. It's one of the big reasons why I absolutely abhor enrage timers. Heck, it might be the only reason I hate enrage timers. I just play the game to get in there, kill stuff, and get loot. I don't care what someone's skill level is as long as they don't get me killed. But the moment you start infringing on my time and wasting it by dying or doing so low it triggers the enrage timer--you better be prepared for a talking to!

I don't even mind slow tanks/healers in 4 man duties. New to the game? Pull one group at a time. I don't care. I just want to play the game and not die. Don't get me killed and we all kosher. I don't care if it takes longer. I play to have fun. Pull slow!

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And enrage timers, unless I'm mistaken, are only in Savage and EX trials, so in casual content you don't have to worry about them.

Sure there are dps checks, but they're usually not all that far into the fight, so if you wipe because you didn't kill Omega's monitor thing, it's okay it's not like you got to the very end of the fight and have to restart.

I'm glad enrage timers aren't in casual content, but for the difficult content they're pretty much required or else you could just stack a lot of healers and only red mages for dps and win your way through every fight via attrition.

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Originally Posted by Kaldaka

Kicking for failure to meet other standards isn't listed under reasons to kick, to my knowledge doing so is reportable (Or at least used to be).

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You can kick anyone for any reason under the nebulous term "difference of playstyle."

Why should someone be penalized 30 minute because they got paired with a healer who has no idea what they're doing, refuses to listen to any advice and simply doesn't care? Since you like to throwing around "reasonable person." What reasonable person attempts something with no basic understanding of what they're doing, then expect everyone else to cater towards them? How dare we hold people to such inflated standards as "this is a stack marker. You stack on it." Blasphemy!

Do any of these change the fact that they may in fact be bad?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

1. Are they a new player?

2. Did they recently change their UI/Binds or both?

3. Are they having a bad day or are they feeling sick?

Could be any of these things or more preventing someone from performing well. and to be fair most of the time I find it is.

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I agree with you on point one. This game is one that is easy to pick up, but hard to master.

However, on the last 2 points, it's completely on the player who may or may not be "bad". It's a player's responsibility to make sure the UI, Binds, or whatever hotbars are sorted out and ready to go before queuing for a duty. Also, if they have personal troubles or don't feel healthy enough, that is his/her problem for playing during such times.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

And enrage timers, unless I'm mistaken, are only in Savage and EX trials, so in casual content you don't have to worry about them.

Sure there are dps checks, but they're usually not all that far into the fight, so if you wipe because you didn't kill Omega's monitor thing, it's okay it's not like you got to the very end of the fight and have to restart.

I'm glad enrage timers aren't in casual content, but for the difficult content they're pretty much required or else you could just stack a lot of healers and only red mages for dps and win your way through every fight via attrition.

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There are 2 casual/non-8 man raid duties that I remember that have "enrage" timers.

One is the last boss of Haukke Manor (Hard), although it happens very rarely since most players are overgeared. After absorbing Lady Amadine and doing a few Beguiling Mists + Fire IV combos, the boss will eventually pick a random party member as a target for Fatal Allure. The Fatal Allure will instantly knock out the hit member and the boss will do major room wide Blood Rain. Should the party survive, she will keep on using Fatal Allure on the other party members until the party wipes or the party somehow manages to beat the boss.

Another is the first boss of Dun Scaith. If the party takes too long to beat the boss, the entire fighting arena will be covered in Void Death IV squares. Once that happens, there is no avoiding the next Void Death IV unless the party beats the boss.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

After all these posts, why exactly do any of you 70 levels play? Whats the incentive im skilled at running 200 instances so you should too? What? Wow a game with endless masters and no students....hmmmm.

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Why do you need an excuse to be lazy and bad at one of the easier MMO's out there? Level 70's play through content obviously to carry the people that can't even do a basic rotation or figure out what a stack marker means after the 100th iteration it's been used in dungeons.

Wow, what a player ladies and gentlemen. We have a real winner here.

Lvl 56, huh?

Someone take him through The Vault on minimum ilevel as his prize.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

1. Are they a new player?

2. Did they recently change their UI/Binds or both?

3. Are they having a bad day or are they feeling sick?

Could be any of these things or more preventing someone from performing well. and to be fair most of the time I find it is.

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1. If they've cleared Shinryu/Tsukuyomi/Exdeath, they're no longer a new player. By that point, they should know what certain returning mechanics are (stack marker), as well as have a basic understanding of their rotation.

2. Then they should practice before entering an instance. It's what I do, especially when I pick up a new Job.

3. I don't see how having a bad day could negatively affect your playstyle. Even if I'm having a bad day, I still put in the effort to get through stuff (I'm just easily agitated by everything now). If I'm sick, then I'm in bed.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If I'm sick, then I'm in bed.

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To be completely fair, sometimes when one is sick a distraction is more useful than rest. And if that means underperforming then I personally will stay out of higher end content. Normal raids and various roulettes are typically fine though. I can't speak for everyone though, this is just how I've gone about it before. Again, sometimes a distraction is the best medicine.

Can I call the Mentor-crowned crash test dummies who somehow die in LotA bad?

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Can I call the Mentor-crowned crash test dummies who somehow die in LotA bad?

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I call them the "doorbusters" because of department stores.

"Attention E-Mart Shoppers, we have a clean-up in aisle LotA. Some kid came back and knocked all of the doorbusters off the shelf and onto the floor. Thank you and once again, we appreciate you shopping at E-Mart."

I one rule should be are they having bad lag day. With all ddos attacks that could be reason ones is playing bad. I see ones always lagging in fights. Like other day lag from ddos attacks was causing my skills to pause for few seconds or caused them to be canceled.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

I one rule should be are they having bad lag day. With all ddos attacks that could be reason ones is playing bad. I see ones always lagging in fights. Like other day lag from ddos attacks was causing my skills to pause for few seconds or caused them to be canceled.

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In the case of our recent lagspikes (and bad lag in general), your party and alliance will see the DC above you when you start lagging and/or your dead body go on a parade around the arena so they probably aren’t going to call you a Bad™.

I can deal with bad players, and do all the time. I much prefer them over toxic players.

As has been pointed out, there are myriad of reasons why a player is playing poorly, but I never take it upon myself to try an improve a player's performance. They did not solicit any advice, and so it will not be received positively in most cases. There is the argument that a player may not know they're bad, but the issue here as I see it is a player who actually cares about their performance will continue to strive to get better regardless of their current skill. On their own, and will likewise seek out advice.

In a case where one player is trying to force feed a rotation to another member, I am actually going to consider the former to be more toxic unless the latter is clearly trolling. This doesn't warrant advice though; it warrants a swift boot from the party. I say that because the player trying to give advice is disrupting the run to do so, and for very little if any benefit at best. Since giving unwanted advice serves more to lengthen the run, and piss off others, it is actually falls more in line with the definition to trolling than the person playing poorly.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To be completely fair, sometimes when one is sick a distraction is more useful than rest. And if that means underperforming then I personally will stay out of higher end content. Normal raids and various roulettes are typically fine though. I can't speak for everyone though, this is just how I've gone about it before. Again, sometimes a distraction is the best medicine.

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I guess the only real 'sicknesses' I get (every so often) are headaches, which playing a game (or staring at a screen at all) doesn't help at all. So lying in bed is the best option here (after taking Panadol or whatever). Might do the same with a cold, since that's annoying and I want it gone ASAP.

Guess it really depends on what kind of "sick" you have. If you're well enough to play games, then whatever illness you have probably won't impede your playstyle too much (unless you have to wipe your nose and refuse to make nose-horns with your tissues). If you're sick to a point where you should be resting, well... stop playing FFXIV and go to bed. You're only making things hard on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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Sometimes you have to inform a player they're doing something wrong, otherwise they'll never know they're doing something wrong. About a week ago, I was in a Suzaku EX party with a SAM who wasn't doing their positionals. Someone advised they should try to do this since they would get more Kenki and the SAM went "oh I didn't know! Thank you!"

Only time giving advice would ever slow a run down is if the bad player doesn't take it, since at that point you've wasted your own time (and others) talking to a brick wall. If a player does take advice, the run can potentially speed up and go smoothly. Toxic players, to me, are those who try to make a player feel like trash (not giving advice, or what they could do differently. Just telling them they're bad).

Since everyone else has given their views on what equals New/Bad, I guess I'll have a turn...

If it's my first time in a Dungeon/Raid, if I mess up and die more than once, I'll apologize and admit to being the "Noob," maybe even ask what I did wrong (if mechanics and not AOE).

If I'm on an unfamiliar class or using a different hotbar (PS4 user), I'll practise before doing any group content (besides Fates).

If I'm sick or tired, I'll just stick to Solo/World Content, if I play at all.

It's not hard to take some responsibility for your own actions, is it?

As for being called "Bad," all I'll say is that without clarification, it just means "Not as Good as me," which like "Bad" as a comment, is subjective as hell.

I mean the vote dismiss button exists for a reason idk why people need validation in order to kick someone I kicked two people from World of Darkness because the healer didn't heal and their DPS friend was AFK auto attacking, even in 70 content if someone's not pulling their weight I will initiate a vote dismiss. I don't lose sleep over it I just move on with my life since this is a game and I don't know these people I have my own standards they have their own.

Having players deliberately or not deliberately underperform is and always will be bad for group content. But I prefer those than toxic trolls. A bad player can learn. A troll can (will) not. I've seen it numerous times in this or any other games, what happens when two (or more) toxic players start with their daily dose of "mommy, my nose is runny again" cry for attention. It can derail whatever the group was doing like not bad player can.

It's very simple, really. One should always ask oneself "Would I have the character, desire or courage to say "you are bad" to this person if we were face to face?" Meaning in real life. If the answer is "no", you should just forget about it and move one. After all, you don't want to be one of internet trolls, do you? Having courage to insult others only when hiding your true identity.
Who needs people like that? They are just BAD. :)

I have social anxiety, I even retired because of it.

For some reason I don't understand myself, I am playing DRK. I really like the class. But the tankxiety is strong, even after playing it for 3 years now. I know it's considered bad gameplay, but I really need the comfort zone of my tankstance. I drop it occasionally at some dungeon bosses when I know them pretty well, but I usually don't have a good feeling about it.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I have social anxiety, I even retired because of it.

For some reason I don't understand myself, I am playing DRK. I really like the class. But the tankxiety is strong, even after playing it for 3 years now. I know it's considered bad gameplay, but I really need the comfort zone of my tankstance. I drop it occasionally at some dungeon bosses when I know them pretty well, but I usually don't have a good feeling about it.

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My best advice would be to play 8 man content with a co-tank that you know. I don't have anxiety playing tank but I'm always a little uneasy in pug groups with a tank I'm unfamiliar with, but communication with your co-tank is always key, especially when you are dropping grit. Have them watch enmity as much you do, and give you a shirk when needed. Also use tools like anticipation now that you have access to them.

Even if not needed, using anticipation when dropping grit may help with the anxiety of dying, and watch your enmity closely and use a power slash when needed

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I can deal with bad players, and do all the time. I much prefer them over toxic players.

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^ this
With alphascape nm especially, when runs go bad I try to remember that some people may be new, or are still trying to get used to the fight.
Not everyone gets mechanics down pat after their first clear.

I'll take a couple wipes with someone sincerely doing their best to clear over a player who feels the need to belittles others if they don't play the way they want them to any day.

But like, if you're having any issues, please let your party know. Most people are willing to help if you ask//

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I can deal with bad players, and do all the time. I much prefer them over toxic players.

As has been pointed out, there are myriad of reasons why a player is playing poorly, but I never take it upon myself to try an improve a player's performance. They did not solicit any advice, and so it will not be received positively in most cases. There is the argument that a player may not know they're bad, but the issue here as I see it is a player who actually cares about their performance will continue to strive to get better regardless of their current skill. On their own, and will likewise seek out advice.

In a case where one player is trying to force feed a rotation to another member, I am actually going to consider the former to be more toxic unless the latter is clearly trolling. This doesn't warrant advice though; it warrants a swift boot from the party. I say that because the player trying to give advice is disrupting the run to do so, and for very little if any benefit at best. Since giving unwanted advice serves more to lengthen the run, and piss off others, it is actually falls more in line with the definition to trolling than the person playing poorly.

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Again, a lot of people aren’t talking about content like dungeons. We’re talking about high-end content where knowing your rotation is absolutely necessary (and, honestly, people should know their rotations in dungeons as well). It is far more toxic for a SAM to join in on an Extreme farm party and proceed to use their AOE combos or spam Enpi on a boss as opposed to single-target because “lol this is how I want to play these animations look cooler” compared to the person who would say “Hey, please use your single-target rotation on a boss because it’s more effective and deals more damage”.

When you start joining endgame content, you should know how your job functions. No one is expecting perfection, but if you are a MNK not hitting positionals or a BRD not using their songs or a SMN that won’t use a pet, you are clearly not fit to be in level 70 content of any kind. And it’s not “toxic” to have other people point out your shortcomings in content where you should know how your job plays.

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Originally Posted by Yuiipuru

^ this
With alphascape nm especially, when runs go bad I try to remember that some people may be new, or are still trying to get used to the fight.
Not everyone gets mechanics down pat after their first clear.

I'll take a couple wipes with someone sincerely doing their best to clear over a player who feels the need to belittles others if they don't play the way they want them to any day.

But like, if you're having any issues, please let your party know. Most people are willing to help if you ask//

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No, people don’t get all the mechanics down pat after their first clear. But that’s still not an adequate defense for a BLM doing only 3,000 DPS in the first minute of the fight where the mechanics are quite simple because they want to only use Blizzard III (you probably think I’m joking, but I’m not; I actually got a BLM who only used Bliz III in V12N last week—and judging from other existing logs of theirs, that is legitimately how they play in all content; it wasn’t just them trolling on a random V12N run).