About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I honestly see parallels to Ishgard and frankly Ishagrd comes out in the worst since as far as we've seen only Solus knew the truth while Ishagrd had essentially a secret police and the head of the clergy keeping the popoluce under constant check, not to mention they spun that lie to keep themselves appear holy and rigtheous.

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Given that at least the two guards (blue and red) in the throne room are also aware and not very surprised by Solus, and we have ample testimony about Garlemald ramping up its secret police activities (Frumentarium et al) during Varis's reign from the Prima Vista crew, I don't think the distinction is that wide.

Especially considering that one NPC on the Prima Vista who also views every new revelation from the Ivalice raids in a favourable light to Garlemald. (He's also the one who tells us about critics being disappeared under Varis's regime, so he's not exactly a blind supporter.)

the 2 guards are probably ascian warrios in disguise. Probably a reference to the ultima daemons of FFT if I have to use a wild guess.

I wouldn't say that the use of the secret police is really that unfounded from Varis, heck we are waging a war of shadow on him now and frankly even before 4.4 since Lolorito has spies in the empire which warned him about the Agrius also apparently Thancred can move around the empire easily. The empire is idd it's own worst enemy yes, buit let's not forget that we are at war

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Originally Posted by Remedi

the 2 guards are probably ascian warrios in disguise. Probably a reference to the ultima daemons of FFT if I have to use a wild guess.

I wouldn't say that the use of the secret police is really that unfounded from Varis, heck we are waging a war of shadow on him now and frankly even before 4.4 since Lolorito has spies in the empire which warned him about the Agrius also apparently Thancred can move around the empire easily. The empire is idd it's own worst enemy yes, buit let's not forget that we are at war

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I prefer the idea I read on these forums somewhere. That red and blue are Zorn and Thorn. Of course they can still be Ascians.

Hmm, wonder what town we will get as a hub if we are going to play a shadow war in an Empire that doesn't want us. Zozo maybe?

As for redeeming the empire. I don't think we will do this. Mostly because of the timing. Sure it would be easy to kill the Ascians and put Varis in charge to make an empire that actually works for stability and not against it.
But we are at the third expansion. We can't do away with our antagnoists now.

True that but Celia and Lettie from Tactis also wore red and blue outfit and they were ultima daemons in the service of Marquis Elmdore and since the many references to the ivalice alliance I thought of that first, but Zorn and Thorn aren't a bad catch either (If they are ascians they can also fuse together).

I do agree that this arc is coming to a close too early, however there are many possibilities that can be explored like that the empire at the end of the next expansion still remains a power in the world, but not a friendly one. We could simply remain in a state of checkmate.

"Thanks for helping me get rid of my grandfather and son. Now fck off or I'll send my armies to Eorzea."

Actually a good way to tie into the next expansion (well next next) is to Varis, or whoever takes the throne, asking you to prove that Eorzea and Garlemald can work together by going to [new area in 6.0] and do [plot of 6.0] for him as a favor.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Celia and Lettie

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Damn, damn, double damn. I had forgotten them entirely and playing FFT so long ago I didn't even remember their colours (I was thinking, like, pink and black). That's another very fitting couple of characters. That's a pretty great catch.

Well their color is blue and magenta (which reminds pink), but usually magenta is the base red in coloration

I feel like the "twin dooms" are indicative of this conflict being a war where the outright victory of one side or the other will lead to an overall terrible event. I wouldn't be surprised if the crystal deposits in both Garlemald and Mor Dhona have something to do with this, but note that there is yet a distinction between the government and the Ascians. That, there can be peace if the interlopers were removed.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

not to mention they spun that lie to keep themselves appear holy and rigtheous.

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That's only part of the truth, really. While it's true that the lie was originally conceived in order to cover up the dishonorable actions of the surviving members of Thordan's disastrous campaign, and to justify their place at the top of the social hierarchy due to their "heroic" actions against the "evil" dragons, that really only applies to the original generation. After that, the lie ballooned to encompass all of Ishgard, to assure all of the people of the city that the misery they were suffering in the endless war was undeserved; that Ishgard was the innocent victim of evil monsters. And in a very real sense, that was the truth! Even just a single generation away from the original vile acts, the folks being oppressed by Nidhogg were innocent of any of the crimes he was persecuting them for.

It was the opinion of present-day Thordan (as well as his predecessors) that revealing the truth about WHO STARTED IT would spread unnecessary doubt among the citizenry. At this point, a thousand years later, "who started it" was a moot point. Ten years later, or a thousand years later, Nidhogg was hardly going to accept "I'm sorry, we were wrong" as a valid reason to stop his murder machine. In all likelihood, it would cause morale to plummet, and possibly even start a civil war, which would essentially spell the end of Ishgard, who could barely hold off the dravanian horde even with everyone strong and united.

It took a very special and specific set of circumstances to avoid that fate - basically, the WoL stepping in to both slay Nidhogg, and to use their status as the hero who accomplished that deed help mollify the masses when the truth came out afterward. I don't think that things would have ended so well if the great lie had been revealed ten or a hundred years earlier. While the lie started out as a way to glorify the original murderers of Ratatoskr, it quickly became necessary to bind the nation together against a relentless foe.

As for Solus and his lie - yeah, the fact that he was the sole secret-keeper makes the citizens of Garlemand victims in the scheme, as well. Even so, the citizenry certainly seemed to jump at the nationalistic opportunity to declare other peoples to be "savages" worthy of conquest. It was quite reminiscent (and likely deliberately written so) of the way the German people, crushed under the debts levied against them at the end of World War I, rallied around the idea of being "ubermenschen" - a "superior race" who had the right to rule over the lesser races (particularly Jews). At this point, I'm not even certain that the truth coming out would dissuade them of the idea of Garlean supremacy. (Not that I'm suggesting that all citizens share that viewpoint - but those that do are certainly well-represented in the Garlean military!)

The thing about Solus' lie is that it's individual components are truths. It's only when he combined them all in a specific way and left out certain information that they're a lie.

Truth: Primals drain the land of aether. Lie: The Burn is what happens when primals drain the land of aether.

Truth: The faith many religions are based on is enough faith to summon a primal. Lie: All religions result in primal summoning. Another Lie: Religious faith is the only kind of faith that can summon primals.

This sets up the atheist Garleans as the only people who aren't capable of summoning a primal. And gives them the duty to eradicate the other religions so that they don't summon primals. And most religions are integral parts of other people's cultures...

Of course, it ignores the fact that primals don't drain the land of aether so quickly something can't be done about it. And the fact that most religions never have managed to summon a primal. And the fact that enough faith in anything can summon a primal.

So you've now got an entire nations' worth of people who have a lot of faith in their Empire's ideals and none of them think that could be a potential problem...

Don't forget that in lore Garleans do have better qualities than the other races in their phisique, their only problem is their inability of use magic, which they supplement with superior strenght, field of vision and ingenuity.
Not really that hard to make them feel supeior to the others.

In fact i would like to have more specification about the oppression of the Garleans that supposedly they had before.
Since they've been written as being superior in body, they shouldn't have been so much oppressed by the ppl near them especially if the hint of coming from the clockwork city is true, because that would mean they would already be more advanced in technology and easily overcome the magic of their enemies with warmachines

If our Gaug is anything like it's Tactics version then it's safe to assume that they brought on their own destruction which set them back to something like the bronze age which of course was less tech advanced than everyone else in the area.

Whoa whoa whoa... bringing up Na- er, 1940's Germany and comparing it to Garlemald is bound to make... certain posters... rather unhappy. While I only find the comparison slightly distasteful due to what I perceive as similarities, it's been brought up before and some people really don't like the comparison. Just... tread lightly.

Lies by omission are still lies - and "Solus" lied about a lot more than the Burn and eikons.

Lie: The Burn was caused by eikons.
Fact: Allag did it. (Eikons might be able to cause a similar phenomenon.)

Lie: Religion invariably leads to eikon summons.
Fact: Not a strict truth, and certainly less likely (if not impossible) prior to Silvertear.

Lie: Garleans are superior to other races in every way save their inability to wield magicks.
Truth: Not scientifically proven; the source for this idea (Aulus) is undoubtedly biased.

The big one, though?

Lie: The Empire's mission is to stamp out eikon summons and bring order to the world.
Truth: The Empire's mission is to cause eikon summons and bring chaos to the world.

That last bit is what causes so much friction between Varis and his, er, handlers. Varis genuinely believes in the ideals (lies) he was brought up to believe in; now knowing they're lies, it's anyone's guess whether he'll turn his back on those ideals or try to make the fictional narrative into reality. The same goes for any Imperial supporter who ardently believes in the Empire's ideals, assuming they were to find out the truth.

The lie about eikons was said later to reinforce their conquest as a crusade.
His first edict was:
"No lands must remain beyond our grasp. Go forth. Conquer. Rule"

This was said before, this sparked the conquest, they came to the burn after their imperialism started. Perhaps this is when the switcheroo happened if there was one.
Unless that line is now to be considered omitted, that was the spark, he lied later about the primals.
Let's not forget this because, it seems we are are considering the lie about the burn as the spark for Garlemand imperialism which wasn't.

It might not have been the spark of Garlean Imperialism, but it made that Imperialism much more palatable for the people who were on the fence. Imperialism is hard to pull off when a significant portion of the conquering empire think the Imperialism isn't necessary. So Solus gave everyone a semi-legitimate reason for the Imperialism.

Finding out Souls lied about the generally accepted reason for the Imperialism will make the most difference for the people who wonder how necessary the Imperialism really is and the people who need a good reason for the Imperialism in the first place. For the people who always supported it, it's not going to make that much of a difference.

That said, it is probably going to make a bigger difference then we think it will. Out of the all the Imperials we've met, finding out about the truth about the primal situation has caused most of them to change their approach to the entire situation. The only Imperials we've met who didn't care about why Garlemald is doing what it is doing either didn't care about Garlemald at all (Nael, Zenos) or were obsessed with something else (Asahi). So getting out the truth of the situation is something that needs to happen. There's a very high chance that doing that will cause Garlemald to at least stop trying to conquer countries while they figure out what they should be doing about the situation.

While stopping eikons and saving the world in so doing was not a part of the Empire's founding ethos, it has been the narrative used to legitimize the Empire's ceaseless attempts at conquest and the outlawing of any and all religious practices ever since it was spun. Take that away and it becomes naked cruelty, ambition, and greed.

Stopping primal summons is important, but the Empire's brazen aggression is going to cause them, not prevent them. Turns out that's the intended effect.

Now the question is: What is the Ascian plan for Garlemald? How long should it keep going? Did they ever plan the truth getting out? Maybe that's why it was revealed to Varys? There is bound to be an uproar and Empirewide chaos. Maybe that causes the calamity the voice guy wants to avert.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Maybe that causes the calamity the voice guy wants to avert.

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The Calamity the voice guy allegedly wants to avert.

There's no guarantee that he's any more trustworthy than the Ascians whispering to the beast tribes "go on, summon your god and have your vengeance before your enemies destroy you".

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Originally Posted by Remedi

In fact i would like to have more specification about the oppression of the Garleans that supposedly they had before.
Since they've been written as being superior in body, they shouldn't have been so much oppressed by the ppl near them especially if the hint of coming from the clockwork city is true, because that would mean they would already be more advanced in technology and easily overcome the magic of their enemies with warmachines

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I wonder that too and kinda question if maybe Ascians even had a hand in that too? I mean they are known to play the long game and maybe saw a race of people that are without the ability of magic as a great way to throw them against the primal problem in the future. Maybe they even gave the other tribes the means to push them back and later when they were still hating this and feel vengeance for that they come in and have a mass of people following them to get their revenge.

(I am also of the opinion that if its fine to compare them to other rl countries and empires that it should be fine to compare them to more recent ones too. And imo the parallels are there, especially in the part of a country that feels oppressed and one person coming in and giving them the means to be and to feel superior, giving them a common enemy and thus having the masses behind them to go to a huge war.)

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The lie about eikons was said later to reinforce their conquest as a crusade.

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This is true and I believe that they used primals after all the time either because they were finally going near the countries that have big amount of aethers thus are more likely to summon them or because the people in Garlemald might have grown tired of going to war just for the sake of conquerings others. Maybe that might even be the time where the Populares appeared (as the voices that dont want to fight anymore, since that always means death and suffering for their side too) and thus Solus used the primals as a way to drown out these voices and to give them a motivation to fight once more.

I wasn't saying that the lie about primals wasn't useful in uniting Garlemand in a crusade, what I meant is that Garlemand already had imperialistic wiew and idea of saving the savages by making their life better under their wiser rule (and also a little bit of revenge for the oppression of the near state), though we know full well that it's a sentiment not shared by all Garleans since they've shown to be either caring of their subjects or monsters, but this is a realistic part of empires in history.

I'm not convinced that the populares aren't imperialistic themselves, there are other ways to gain control of nations outside of an hard conquest, in fact Gaius stance in the 4.4 sting would make him lean towards a populares position, since he says that an unjust rule of oppression will lead to rebellion. If the Garlean in the prima vista was a tease towards the presence of the populares, it is very likely that their aim is a rule of Garlemand over all by politics and not by military conquest, he does seems to imply that Garleans have a savior complex.
Frankly the way the peace treaty was worded to Doma it made it clear that Hien had his hand forced, peace negotiations are made on equal footings and Doma was not able to make demands, actually he was made an offer they couldn't refuse in exchange of friendship and I doubt they used the word friendship randomly there


@Alleo I don't know if the wikia uses the infos from the lorebook, though since it narrates some parts it seems so, but Solus had the eikon edicts after reaching the Burn and "witnessing" what happened there, which was 6 years after the start of the imperial campaign of annexation of lands, which apparently was after the fall of Dalmasca. maybe someone can confirm.

Iirc, Ilsabard was already under the Garleans control before "Solus" gave his speech about the burn.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Whoa whoa whoa... bringing up Na- er, 1940's Germany and comparing it to Garlemald is bound to make... certain posters... rather unhappy. While I only find the comparison slightly distasteful due to what I perceive as similarities, it's been brought up before and some people really don't like the comparison. Just... tread lightly.

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I admit I was a bit worried that I was skirting the edges of Godwin's Law, but just how many blatant parallels do the writers have to throw at us before we call a spade a spade? Dear lord, when the Garleans rounded up Domans in Namai to march them off to be laborers (with the implication they were to be worked to death, which is why we stepped in to save them at great risk to our covert operations), I was just shaking my head. Yes, SE, we get it. We can see who the Garleans are supposed to remind us of.

It's among the reasons I bristle when folks try to compare the nuanced, grey morality brilliantly portrayed by the antagonists in FFXII to the ham-fisted Evil Empire in this game. The writers aren't even TRYING to portray the Garleans as having a legitimate point of view - and what flimsy rationalization they had (we're saving the world from Primals!) just got the rug yanked out from under it, with the rationalization that it was Ascians leading them by the nose all along. (Not that that revelation made me at all happy... Can't we have at least one pie without any Ascian fingers in it?)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I admit I was a bit worried that I was skirting the edges of Godwin's Law, but just how many blatant parallels do the writers have to throw at us before we call a spade a spade? Dear lord, when the Garleans rounded up Domans in Namai to march them off to be laborers (with the implication they were to be worked to death, which is why we stepped in to save them at great risk to our covert operations), I was just shaking my head. Yes, SE, we get it. We can see who the Garleans are supposed to remind us of.

It's among the reasons I bristle when folks try to compare the nuanced, grey morality brilliantly portrayed by the antagonists in FFXII to the ham-fisted Evil Empire in this game. The writers aren't even TRYING to portray the Garleans as having a legitimate point of view - and what flimsy rationalization they had (we're saving the world from Primals!) just got the rug yanked out from under it, with the rationalization that it was Ascians leading them by the nose all along. (Not that that revelation made me at all happy... Can't we have at least one pie without any Ascian fingers in it?)

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Yeah. The Empire was POTENTIALLY interesting once upon a time. But even 1.0 had the Meteor Project. We had Gaius but we also had Nael. We had Hydrus but we also had Zenos.

The framework of a compelling antagonist is there. A legitimately good goal of stopping Primals from slowly killing the planet. Being driven out in the past to give them a beef with other lands. But not only was the foundation already deeply damaged by the Meteor Project in 1.0, but even Gaius' approach was undermined by his alliance with the obviously evil Lahabrea who used his plan to almost bring about another calamity.

And then we come to Stormblood. Yoshi apparently didn't intend for people to relate to Gaius as much as they did. So they over corrected. They made Zenos INTENTIONALLY unsympathetic so people wouldn't want to side with him. And now the reveal shows that even the good intentions of order and stopping primals was a lie.

This isn't FF XII, it's FF VI where the empire may have some good people within it but as an organization is evil and bad to the core. There's someone on another board I've had frustrating conversations with because they seem to think that Garlemald is the roman empire bringing order to savages as if they buy into the in lore propaganda, dismissing stories of abuse from ala mhigans as non credible sources, playing up the supposed virtues of the empire and downplaying the faults. It's really hard to have an actual discussion with someone with such deluded headcanon who sees the Empire not as it's presented in lore but how they want it to be.

The thing is, it's been a while since the FF series has had a "Evil Empire". So it doesn't seem like SE's style to do one anymore. I don't think people were expecting them to go this route.

And even with the Garlean Empire being the "Evil Empire", it still isn't so one-dimentionally evil either. The current emperor is probably the biggest question mark as of now. We know he doesn't like the Ascians and wasn't happy when he found out they were behind the Empire. Now is that because he really doesn't like the direction the Garlean Empire is going or just because he wants to be in-charge of it? I don't know. He's a lot less clear-cut then Gaius who seems to have dropped the idea of conquest altogether to focus on fighting the people who are the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The Calamity the voice guy allegedly wants to avert.

There's no guarantee that he's any more trustworthy than the Ascians whispering to the beast tribes "go on, summon your god and have your vengeance before your enemies destroy you".

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True. For all we know he could very well be an Ascian

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The thing is, it's been a while since the FF series has had a "Evil Empire". So it doesn't seem like SE's style to do one anymore. I don't think people were expecting them to go this route.

And even with the Garlean Empire being the "Evil Empire", it still isn't so one-dimentionally evil either. The current emperor is probably the biggest question mark as of now. We know he doesn't like the Ascians and wasn't happy when he found out they were behind the Empire. Now is that because he really doesn't like the direction the Garlean Empire is going or just because he wants to be in-charge of it? I don't know. He's a lot less clear-cut then Gaius who seems to have dropped the idea of conquest altogether to focus on fighting the people who are the real problem.

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The current emperor is not the one in charge. As Solus says, his place is to carry out directives not issue them.

Now, if Varis manages to throw out Solus and Elidibus and take control he could make the Empire something better than what it is, but right now it definitely is 'evil' and its noble goal a lie to fool the masses. That doesn't mean everyone in the empire is evil, but as an organization it's just a tool to sew chaos behind the scenes.

Even if Varis or Gaius manage to remove the ascians from the empire, that doesn't mean we become buddy buddy.
While Solus had a vision and design for what the empire had to be, Varis and Gaius have their own vision for it,l which doesn't make them tools, the moment either of them will gain a opening they will exploit it to rid themselves of the yoke.
Ascians aren't omnipotent as they think they are. Lahabrea learned it the hard way.
So far only Elidubus and allegedly Solus were able to lead the game, otherwise they've been pretty much cartoon villains
Frankly the unwillingness of Varis to follow up with Elidubus plan is essentially a cechov's gun, if sooner Varis won't make that indolence work I'll consider it a flaw in the writing.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

There's someone on another board I've had frustrating conversations with because they seem to think that Garlemald is the roman empire bringing order to savages as if they buy into the in lore propaganda, dismissing stories of abuse from ala mhigans as non credible sources, playing up the supposed virtues of the empire and downplaying the faults. It's really hard to have an actual discussion with someone with such deluded headcanon who sees the Empire not as it's presented in lore but how they want it to be.

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Going off-topic for a moment here, if you'll forgive the digression...

Welcome to any discussion about Garlemald ever on the Lore Forums! Your experience is not unique, I assure you.

Just remember to call red herrings and that "agree to disagree" often means "I can't refute your argument, but I refuse to concede as well" in context, and maybe, just maybe, you'll get out with your sanity intact.

Erm. Back on point - yes, the Garlean Empire is an evil organization (Lawful Evil, to be exact), and parallels the Gestahlian Empire of VI much more than the Archadian Empire of XII (and this is coming from someone who only brushed the former and got bored halfway through the latter), even if not everyone in the Empire is evil. Zenos was made almost comically evil to bring the point home after so many thought Gaius had the right idea.

If they wanted to make the Garlemand empire an evil organization completely they wouldn't have brought back Gaius nor made Varis reluctant in 4.4 stinger.
Yes Zenos made the empire look evil and the collusion between Varis and Zenolidubus cemented that, however 4.4 throws everything into discussion because while Solus is shown to be completely evil, you can't say the same for Gaius nor Varis, especially since the former is actively seeking to remove the ascian problem to create a rightful empire probably.
As if the existance of the dissent in the empire wasn't proof enough, you cannot say that the organization is entirely evil, it was created for evil yes, but it became something else and this is why the ascians came back.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

If they wanted to make the Garlemand empire an evil organization completely they wouldn't have brought back Gaius nor made Varis reluctant in 4.4 stinger.
Yes Zenos made the empire look evil and the collusion between Varis and Zenolidubus cemented that, however 4.4 throws everything into discussion because while Solus is shown to be completely evil, you can't say the same for Gaius nor Varis, especially since the former is actively seeking to remove the ascian problem to create a rightful empire probably.
As if the existance of the dissent in the empire wasn't proof enough, you cannot say that the organization is entirely evil, it was created for evil yes, but it became something else and this is why the ascians came back.

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Of the two examples you name, it's telling to note that GAIUS LEFT. Even in 2.0, he and his legion had gone AWOL to pursue what Gaius felt was the proper way to handle Eorzea. Sure, he was doing it for the sake of Garlemand, but they were actions that the Empire did not want him to take. And NOW, as the Shadowhunter, he is explicitly targeting Ascians - and since Ascians are running the Empire, it follows that he is not only not a good example of a good member of the organization, he's actually in direct conflict with the organization.

And as for Varis - he hasn't left yet, but he is also clearly displeased with the organization. His resistance is passive, for now, but will likely become active in due time.

Basically, anyone decent turns against the Empire to one degree or another as soon as they learn enough about it. When folks of a noble nature appear to be supporting the Empire, they are treated by the narrative as being tragically misguided. If that doesn't paint the Empire as evil, I don't know what does. Garlemand as a nation is not evil. Garleans as a people are not evil. But Garlemand as an Empire most certainly is.

Cilia brought up FFVI, and yes, that's a MUCH better parallel for they style of Empire we have than FFXII. Vayne is not in charge - Gestahl is (well, kind of a Gestahl/Kefka mix given how irreverent and flippant Solus is). Garlemand has its General Leos, loyal individuals who believe in the nobility of their nation, but these folks are essentially little more than propaganda-fodder because the folks in charge are basically monsters - and just as we saw with Maxima, when those General Leos become inconvenient they are disposed of.

Gaius wants a reofrmation of the empire not a dissolution.
He still believes in a just reing of the empire, which is what his character has been built since 2.0. He doesn't wow to end the empire when he saw the use of black rose, he laments the fact that their action will make them lose provinces.
Which means that once the Ascians are purged from the empire he fully intends to return. Just like he wanted to use the eorzea campaign to further his own agenda whichever it was.

As for Varis, the whole point of his resistance being passive is to show the cracks in the empire and the fact that he is under an unwilling yoke. He still remains the emperor, which should mean something since nobody knows about the ascian yoke over him, when the times comes. I repeat, he can't do anything now and he knows it, he's biding time, the whole point was to set up a theme for 5.0, which I hope will be touched or all the death stares, the gasp and the teeth clenched will be for naught.

I don't get why we are comparing Solus to either Ghestal or Kefka now, since he literally had only 1 scene in-game and besides acting like Ardyn he didn't really shown much but perhaps being a cartoonish villain, while Kefka is a nihilist and Gesthal a power-hungry man.
In all seriousness if you believe that the empire as a whole is completely evil I can't agree with you. It means that we have to disregard ppl that have been shown to not being scums and completely ignore ppl like Maxima the wanted the treaty to go and this is disrespectful
In fact I made more than 2 examples and I also spoke of the populares but w/e

Gaius is an interesting character because we don't know the specifics of what he wants for the Empire right now. We do know he thinks the Empire isn't doing a good job by losing so many territories, but given how they are losing their territories (Zenos is bored) that's a valid problem to have with the Empire. Anyone with any sense of strategy would think that.

What we do know, and have known about him for a long time, is that he puts a lot of stress on the idea of ruling well. From how he talks about Eorzea, it sounds like he doesn't want to conquer them just for the sake of conquering them, but because their current governments aren't doing a good job at it. And at the beginning of 1.0, that's not necessarily a wrong way of viewing the situation. A big chunk of the early part of 1.0's MSQ is focused on the starting city-states and all of them have governmental issues that are not portrayed in a positive light. And there's the whole problem of Eorzea not knowing about eikons and having a way to deal with them. By the time 2.0 ends (before the patches start), a lot of those problems have either dealt with or are less of an issue. And Eorzea's leadership has a very good idea of the type of threat both eikons and the Ascians present.

So I can see Gaius thinking that by the end of 2.0 that Eorzea is being ruled well enough that he doesn't have to conquer them to provide that. Meanwhile, he hasn't had any contact with the Empire since before the War of Succession came to a head. So who knows what state Isabard is in by this point. Given how many Ascians he's run into by the time we see him in 4.3, it's very likely Isabard is dealing with much more Ascian Manipulation then Eorzea did. So in his mind, he's probably got every reason to be there.

The reason I bring up Gaius' idea of "ruling well" (no matter how hypocritical it is) is because Gaius is the only Garlean-in-power that I can remember talking about that concept. I don't think we've ever heard Varis talk about it. Varis seems to be more concerned with saving the planet in any way possible and it almost seems like that is a chore for him. And that goes all the way back to his introduction in 3.0 which might be before he found out the truth about Solus. Gaius at least cares about how he goes about doing things. We know he has limits, even if they aren't as limiting as most people want them to be. It also seems that neither stopping the eikons or stopping the Ascians is something Gaius feels overly burdened by. I get the feeling he's doing what he wants to do in 4.3 if just to prove he isn't being manipulated by the Ascians anymore.

Now that I think about it, I could see Varis being jealous of Gaius. Varis hates the Ascians, but can't do anything overt about it. Meanwhile, Gaius has managed to get out from under Ascian manipulation and has turned the fight back on them.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

If they wanted to make the Garlemand empire an evil organization completely they wouldn't have brought back Gaius nor made Varis reluctant in 4.4 stinger.

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An organisation or government is not much less evil just because they have morally grey characters in it. I mean Gaius was still someone that would have conquered another country and had believed in the right that you should rule if you are stronger. Heck he wanted to use the Ultima weapon as a game changer to force the alliance into giving up. He is thankfully not willing to do everything to conquer a country and might have changed even more after the betrayal from Lahabrea but he was still a morally grey (and interesting) character. Varis is a wild card. Depending on how SE wants to write him he can either become an ally or he will still be an enemy. And seeing how he wanted to use genocide to destroy the primals forever (and probably the complete destruction of any culture or religion to stop anyone from summoning them again) then he still quite morally grey (I would even go and say morally black) and not necessary a good way to show the better sides of Garlemald.

I mean just because we had people in our own history that went against their dictator (as an example) does not mean that the rule itself was not evil. And we will see how certain characters truly stand in the coming expansion.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

*snip*

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Maxima is an example of a General Leo. A good person who is loyal to the Empire and has faith that they're ultimately doing the right thing. The fact that he is a member of the Empire doesn't make the Empire less evil - it makes Maxima misguided for believing in it, just as Leo's loyalty to Gestahl turned out to be misguided.

As for Solus having just one scene, that's not entirely true. Solus has quite a bit of history, and we learn bits and pieces of it over the course of the game. He was a charismatic leader, and popular with his people, just as Gestahl was. While a ruthless warmonger, he was apparently a reasonable authority figure, and even a patron of the arts. Gestahl was much the same way; when the Espers began to run amok, he sued for peace and offered to make amends for his nation's wrongdoings, appearing to put concern for his nation over his personal ambitions. Gestahl's contrition turned out to be a lie - his offer of peace was a front to gather the marauding Espers in one place to be easily slaughtered. Likewise, Solus claimed to want to bring order to the world when his true goal was just the opposite.

And Gaius? It may be true he's not (knowingly) in opposition to the Empire, but my point is that he's working against the Empire anyway. The problem is that Gaius's vision of what the Empire should be differs from Solus's. Solus's empire - the Evil Empire - is an engine for spreading chaos and misery for the purpose of ushering in a Calamity. Gaius's empire is one of strength and personal integrity, designed to allow a strong leader to save the weak of will from their own weakness by way of authority and firm command. The Empire Gaius is loyal to is NOT the Empire Solus created (even if Gaius thinks it is). In fact, even before we learned Solus was an Ascian, the Empire Gaius believed in was an ideal that didn't really match the reality. Gaius believed that non-Garleans such as Rhitatyn and Fodola could prosper under Garlean rule, so long as they embodied Garlean ideals and worked earnestly and hard. Only under his command, was that ideal the truth - once he was out of the picture, the best Fordola could accomplish was to keep the mockery of her Garlean "peers" at low volume. Gaius, too, was a General Leo, placing his faith in a system that was, ultimately, a lie.

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

Frankly the difference between Gaius and Zenos as a governor are proof enough that Governors have complete authoruity over their provinces and no province has the same form of rule
The truth is we really know nothing of the empire, but of Ala mhigo, Doma and Dalmasca. Doma is another anomaly because they left Kaien in charge, would be good to know what kind of rule happened there since that is quite anomaly

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

Frankly the difference between Gaius and Zenos as a governor are proof enough that Governors have complete authoruity over their provinces and no province has the same form of rule
The truth is we really know nothing of the empire, but of Ala mhigo, Doma and Dalmasca. Doma is another anomaly because they left Kaien in charge, would be good to know what kind of rule happened there since that is quite anomaly

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Nobody is saying there aren't good people in the empire. But they're not in charge of the empire. It doesn't matter if the Populares were against the Meteor Project or don't know that the Ascians are pulling the strings. The empire is not evil down to the last man, but as an organization the empire is a tool of chaos and evil, and even Varis is not truly in control of it. He's emperor in name but his scene with Solus makes it clear he's not actually the one in control of the situation.

There are people within the empire who want to reform it, and even more that would if they knew the truth, but the organization itself is currently a tool of evil being used by the ascians to cause calamities. They already brought about one and are working towards more.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

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Because we are not discussing the actions of individuals but the actions of an organisation. An organisation that was only created to sow chaos, an organisation that used its peoples anger and ego to create wars around the world that killed a huge mass of people, made the live in Eorzea even worse by nearly destroying it with a moon, that razes cities to the ground and that even managed to create a calamity which completely destroyed a shard. (And who knows how many living beings there) An organisation that was ruled to 99,9% of the time by an Ascian that wanted chaos and was using it for their evil plans. And that now have a ruler that was fine with mass killing beast tribes if it solves a problem, even though he knew that others were also looking for a solution. A new ruler that might be turning into an ally or might not.

It does not matter if they are some people in it if we talk about the empire itself. And lets not forget that Regula was still quite fine to kill our beast tribes friends at Varis order, that he was still ready to shot down our ship which would have killed us and that only worked together to solve a problem that he could not solve in another way. He also had some good sides to him but we should not forget that he was also ready to kill and also still called us a savages. His early death was sadly something that stopped him from being a deeper character. It would have been nice to see him react to this lie and where his loyalities would have lied.

Again good people exist in any regime, in any empires of the world and history. But that does not change the fact that the head or the system itself is bad/evil. And that most of the time a change in minds and government is needed to truly change it to something better. A place where people with differen opinions like Maxima wont be put on a hit list to be murdered. Because no matter how much you are against something, in such bad empires you have no chance to change anything because you will either just be killed or not be heard at all.

The populares are also not that powerful if they only now got their voices heard by Varis and got them pushed down quite fast again with the primal summoning. Its sounds more like a smaller group that has been working for more peace for quite some time but such a group has no chance at all if you are ruled by a dictator. Garlemald is seemingly not like Ishgard where Aymeric is the spokesperson but needs permission from the board of the elected people to do something. And if the two political groups can take down Varis then he seemingly has still enough followers.

About the provinces: A good ruler that wants to have provinces without any rebellion should make sure that they are run by the right people. Instead of just looking away or not caring they should take down any province leader that is making the situation worse. Ala Mhigo under Zenos and Doma under Yotsuyu was quite showing how to not do it. Not only was it bad for earning money (a functional saltery could benefit both sides quite well) but taking away the young ones in a lot of villages and only leaving the old and weak would make sure that they wont surivive long or that the country will break down and be not worth anything. I was always surprised how incompetent they looked because it was not making much sense. Now it does: Because by threating them that badly, especially in Ala Mhigo, maybe Solus has hoped for more primal summonings. Which in turn would show the Garleans that they are "right". But its defintely not a good way to rule an empire at all. Such empires wont last long simply because of all the rebellions that would pop up. An emporer need to trust the people that they sent there but they cant turn a blind eye afterwards. They should care how they are doing there and take them out if its necessary. Solus did not do it (for obvious reasons) and Varis didnt either.

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To give this a more rl example: (without a government this time)

You have an organisation that from an outside view wants to help certain countries in the world, that gives them jobs and builts things for them. People do believe that they are working for something good and it gets praise and support. Suddenly the truth comes out. The bosses of this organisation did not do this to help the people. They did it to find oil and because those people there are poor they use them as cheap workers, maybe even with horrible working conditions. All the "good deeds" they did were to gain support from others, so that this was paid and to get the people there to believe in them. But it was all a lie.

Would you say that the organisation itself, that from the very start only existed for that reason, is not bad? Or would you say while hearing about this story on the radio that these are the worst and that the leaders of it should be dealt with and the organisation stopped?

(I know that this is a complete constructed example, I wanted to avoid using any real ones)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

It does not matter if they are some people in it if we talk about the empire itself. And lets not forget that Regula was still quite fine to kill our beast tribes friends at Varis order, that he was still ready to shot down our ship which would have killed us and that only worked together to solve a problem that he could not solve in another way. He also had some good sides to him but we should not forget that he was also ready to kill and also still called us a savages. His early death was saddly something that stopped him from being a deeper character. It would have been nice to see him react to this lie and where his loyalities would have lied.

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Speaking of Hydrus, in retrospect part of me wonders if Elidibus wanted him out of the way because he was loyal to Varis personally. That masked kid he sent to work with us DID try to spring a trap for Hydrus though it wasn't successful, and Varis' position would be stronger with Hydrus around and loyal to him. His death in HW leaves Varis without an asset he'd find very useful if he ends up working against the Ascians.

Probably just coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Speaking of Hydrus, in retrospect part of me wonders if Elidibus wanted him out of the way because he was loyal to Varis personally. That masked kid he sent to work with us DID try to spring a trap for Hydrus though it wasn't successful, and Varis' position would be stronger with Hydrus around and loyal to him. His death in HW leaves Varis without an asset he'd find very useful if he ends up working against the Ascians.

Probably just coincidence.

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I am not really sure he would have planned that. Regula only got stuck there because of Ysayle and thus might have needed to ally with us thanks to that. Also didnt that kid (I never remember is name x)) try to stop the Garleans from freeing the triade? I mean it could be all a masterplan to get rid of him but I doubt that even Elidibus would have some much insight. Also at that time Lahabrea was still alive, thus Solus was not back and seemingly Varis was still on track with his plan (thus no annoyance to Elidibus). I would even dare to say that maybe Regulas death was not great for Elidibus because having someone deeply loyal with someone can also be used for quite some bad stuff. Varis only doubted in this new patch (which seems to surprise and annoy Elidibus a bit) thus he should have still been an important puppet in Elidibus plan at that time and if the emporer follows his lead then Regula would also follow and maybe do even something drastic to save him at some time.

But sadly all of this will always remain in the realm of pure speculation because he got killed way too fast imo.

If the populares were not a big group they would've never won the empire attentionm, the fact that they lost the support of the ppl it means that there are 3 groups in Garlemand.
Optimates, Populares and commonfolk, whose support changes depending on their emotions on the subject.
They are important.
Also you are discussing the actions of individuals when speaking of the empire, because you are talking about Solus idea and Nael idea of the empire as a way to condemn the empire, why are you allowed to do that?I already said is not the correct way to represent the empire as a whole. Besides an ascian that was using the empire for evil plans you say? I'm sorry what kind of argument is that? We don't even know exactly if Zodiark is evil nor if Hydaelyn is good. Aren't you presuming much? We are just guessing, what we know is that if they die we all die

@Bright-flower
WIth Elidubus? I'm ready to say that it wasn't a coincidence nor the fact that he gave the eyes to Ilberd leading to the summoning of Shinryu and then to Zenos' death.
If you think about it it was just so strange that just after Zenos' died he was ready to take over the body and reappear in the capital, the timing is just too good and completely in the modus operandi of Elidubus.
I mean in 2 events both the emperor's son and his most closed ally were killed off too good for it to be a mere coincidence