Any update on Gil for Crysta? [WOW Gold for Subscription Model in FFXIV]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

Yeah but then the developers are letting whales buy so much gil they could flood servers and destroy economies. The gil that bots and RMTs have can legitimately be removed because of terms of service.
Square Enix are happy with players sitting on piles of gil as long as they continue paying subscription costs.....

---

No they can't because the gil is NOT getting generated it comes from other players. Is that so hard to understand?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

It's not about what I think, it's about you not reading anything we're writing, you keep saying people are selling gil to SE when now 5 times we have explained you the gil is not disappearing nor being generated so there's no cashing out. Gil goes from player A to player B, money goes from player B to player A, no gil is generated, no currency is generated, no money is lost, SE takes the real life money and converts it to crysta for player A. SO the end result is player A ends up with crysta or sub, player B ends up with player A's gil, SE ends up with the $$$ and a guarantee that the money will be spent on the game because its in crysta/sub form.

---

You're not reading mine either apparently, because you're fixated on the crysta part, and not where the gil comes from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

No they can't because the gil is NOT getting generated it comes from other players. Is that so hard to understand?

---

I don't know what game you're playing, but I'm pretty sure nearly every quest in the game generates gil from players completing quests. Where do you expect these players to have gil to sell for crysta from?

This idea is ridiculous stop comparing other mmos to ff14!!! and thix idea would just ruin the economy, market board and divide the community
~If it ain't broken don't tryna fix it!!!!
~ I Disagree with this idea 101%!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not reading mine either apparently, because you're fixated on the crysta part, and not where the gil comes from.



I don't know what game you're playing, but I'm pretty sure nearly every quest in the game generates gil from players completing quests. Where do you expect these players to have gil to sell for crysta from?

---

But the gil doesn't appear out of thin air, thats the point. But you don't understand how the token works anyway so we don't have to discuss further.

The evidence supporting these systems exists and has been vetted by multiple companies, some of these responses against it seem to be from a lack of understanding or an inherent gripe over giving gil value and the fact that selling digital currency is a multi million $ industry I wouldn't be surprised if some of these are just protecting their interests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not reading mine either apparently, because you're fixated on the crysta part, and not where the gil comes from.

---

The gil is coming from another player, not generated, and is not eaten by SE, it goes from player A to player B.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I don't know what game you're playing, but I'm pretty sure nearly every quest in the game generates gil from players completing quests. Where do you expect these players to have gil to sell for crysta from?

---

Player generated gil is already subject to sinks, no inflation would be created, people who want to buy more crysta will be using the market to get gil from other players in exchange for goods, not botting 24/7 to get raw gil like you seem to believe.

If they ever felt like too much gil is being generated they can lower the gil drop per dungeon/challenge log or implement new sinks, because they have full control on this, but generation of gil is a whole different topic that has nothing to do with the token topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

You talk as if crafting is some exclusive game mode that only a few can do, you just have to be level 10 to learn crafting. A system like this would hopefully encourage more people to participate in the economy, as people would have more money to spend and other people would have a big incentive to make money.

You don't need to spend a lot of time in the game to craft, even end game crafts are only done within 1-2 mins.

---

And you don't even need to be a max level crafter to make valuable things.

And you can earn a decent amount of gil even as a level one gatherer (shards).

And you can earn money as a battle class if you farm drops (fleece, halgai manes, etc).

Even my non-crafting, non-gathering friends are able to earn a decent amount of gil just off selling the materia they get from various types of content, or the occasional sellable rare drop.

If you're not making gil in this game, it's because you don't want to, and that's fine. Nothing would require you to use the proposed system.

The only thing I would say is that if this system does get added they need to put in a few gold sinks which is not hard to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

The only thing I would say is that if this system does get added they need to put in a few gold sinks which is not hard to do.

---

They need to put in gold sinks even if this system is not added. The game does need more of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They need to put in gold sinks even if this system is not added. The game does need more of them.

---

True, I'm not sure why they're so resistant to it. The only accessible to all gold sink is buying an apartment or FC room and that's only 500/300k taken out of the economy...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You seem to think I'm wrong.

---

A lot of people do, about a lot of things. You seem to think being wrong is something that's beneath you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You seem to think I'm wrong. In the interest of not writing a post that is two pages long and everyone will ignore anyway, I chose to cut to the point.

It is a bad idea, it only benefits those wanting to cash out. It does not benefit the players, especially when there is no goldsink in the game. If the only goldsink is selling the gil back to SE via game credit, then SE has manufactured a loss that cost them nothing, but they can deduct from their taxes.

---

Player A wants gil and has disposable irl income. Player B has gil but wants to supplement their irl income by paying their sub in gil. SE wants money.

How are the two players in this exchange not benefiting from the exchange? Sure, SE also gains something... is that somehow a negative to you? Do you hate the game so much that you don't want SE to make money now?

I'm not saying this is a good idea, I haven't yet given it a ton of thought, but to say the players aren't benefiting is just nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You seem to think I'm wrong. In the interest of not writing a post that is two pages long and everyone will ignore anyway, I chose to cut to the point.

It is a bad idea, it only benefits those wanting to cash out. It does not benefit the players, especially when there is no goldsink in the game. If the only goldsink is selling the gil back to SE via game credit, then SE has manufactured a loss that cost them nothing, but they can deduct from their taxes.

---

How does it not benefit the players? If you are in a bad situation real life and may not be able to afford the money for the sub but you have enough gil ingame you can buy such a token from the player that bought it legally from SE. SE gets money, the player that bought it gets more gil and can buy stuff with that and the other player can save a bit of real money. Win Win for everyone

Or are you of the view that gifts from the store (which is kinda the same way minus the gil) are bad for us too?

Also you dont need to be a crafter to make big amounts of Gil. Do treasure maps a lot and you are already getting quite a sum. Do content with rare drops (all the recent primal ones) and you get quite some good gil. Or just simply farm monsters for their skin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

If you're not making gil in this game, it's because you don't want to, and that's fine.

---

True, but probably not in the way you think it is.

The gil inflow noticeably exceeds the gil outflow, so everyone should be making some gil. But the rate at which you acquire gil from the actual system isn't particularly huge. So when people talk about "making gil", it's usually taking it from other players via trading.

And that is something that not everyone can do, because when you take gil from one person, he no longer has it. Groundbreaking, I know. But it means that make up for that, he'd either need to get the gil back from the system, which actually increases the amount of money in the grand scale, or take it from another player himself, who then would need to make up for that as well. The latter option leads to a perpetual chain reaction, so if everyone tried to make gil via the market, the whole thing turns into a zero sum game.

Except: Not a real zero sum. There's market taxes and that destroys a bit of the gil. Merry-go-round trading with a constant tax is actually an efficient gil sink due to the ripple effect it has. One that gets completely invalidated by self-sufficiency, which is the first thing you'd want to cull if you were serious about getting gil sinks into the game. But no worries, it's just rhetoric - nobody really wants efficient gil sinks, people want expensive prestige items to show off for their gil that have absolutely zero effect on the economy because the gil used on them had long since stopped circulating and thus affecting anything in the first place. That's far more popular, if highly ineffective.

As a rule, in order for money sinks to do anything, they need to affect money that actually circulates. Money that's being hoarded is best left undisturbed. Why? Because the only reason we care about the amount of money in the first place is because of price inflation. It comes with adjustment costs, devalue of fixed income sources etc. Nasty stuff.
Now, you may have heard that prices are set by supply and demand. Well that's true, even in inflation. And what people do in the economic world when they have more money? Often, they use it to buy more stuff, i.e. increase demand. If supply remains static, that means rising prices. If people just sit on their money instead, no increased demand, no effect on prices. What does that mean for tokens? Well the people who want to sell the tokens for gil will want to use that money on something, i.e. get it to circulate. Hence, price inflation.
Things look a bit different with a capital market in play, but we don't have to worry about that here. Unless you RP as a loan shark, I guess.


The moral question that arises from all that in regards to sub tokens is:
Do you feel that people who make substantial net profits from the market board deserve an effective subscription discount?
As elaborated above, not everyone can do it. It's de facto an exclusive playstyle. Do you think it's justified to elevate it above all others? Any why in particular would playing the market be worth so much more than, say, raiding, mentoring, or any other piece of content?

One could make a case that, since people who take money from other players reduce overall demand and thus fight price inflation, they are doing the community as a whole a service and deserve it by merit of that. But then the system would need to be set up in such a way that the gil used for the subscription does not go to another player, but rather is removed from the game. Then it would function as a gil sink. The whole argument is wonky and doesn't hold much water, but you could try it at least. But then the people who wanted to do RMT with a clear conscience are mad.

Do people think about any of that? Do they care? My guess is: Nope. I think people are far more selfish and just think about what they could get out of such a system and then design their narrative around that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

As a rule, in order for money sinks to do anything, they need to affect money that actually circulates. Money that's being hoarded is best left undisturbed. Why? Because the only reason we care about the amount of money in the first place is because of price inflation. It comes with adjustment costs, devalue of fixed income sources etc. Nasty stuff.

---

Going to have to strongly disagree here. The money isn't being hoarded because people want to hoard it. It's being hoarded because there's nothing the person can do with it. This is not a natural state of affairs - money is meant to be used.

That money is supposed to be in circulation already. The fact that it's not is a problem.

This seems like another really long post to say that something that has worked in other games could not possibly ever work in FFXIV, which is for some reason an argument that comes up a lot for a lot of features.

We went through all of these arguments when the WoW token was added to the game. Was it pay to win, was it going to cause massive inflation, was it favoring a certain subset of players, etc.

The WoW token was added to the game on April 7, 2015. You may notice it's still the most profitable MMO by any stretch of the imagination, even after 3 years of the token single handedly destroying the game (/sarcasm). The majority of players can still very easily afford the items they need. If they want more expensive items (rare transmogs, expensive mounts and toys, etc) they will need to earn the gold somehow. Some players will choose to do so the easy way, by purchasing a token. Others will do so by crafting or gathering, which is still extremely profitable. Even others will do so just by farming old raids and vendoring the drops. And it remains to be seen if the war campaign missions will bring in as much gold as the garrison or class hall missions did, but those were a large amount of completely passive income. As it turns out, no competent player who isn't blowing their gold on useless purchases is finding it impossible to purchase the things they need to play the game.

Also, the majority of people I know who have experience with the token do not pay for their game time exclusively with gold. Obviously there are some who do, but it appears to be a minority; most people, when they grab a token, are just shifting money into an unexpected life event, they just want to see if they're still interested in the game after a long break, etc.

Was there a little inflation? Yes, but the inflation had actually been happening since long before the token was added. The Black Market Auction House was added to the game long before the token because there needed to be a gold sink. Everyone had so much gold that prices were inflating out of control. After all, it seemed everyone had been playing for years at this point and had lots and lots of gold. But since the token was added, prices have appeared to remain much steadier as opposed to continuing to balloon upwards.

The subscription model being successful for an MMO is waning. When I invite my friends to play XIV, one of the biggest things that keeps people from trying it is the subscription cost. A lot of them already play WoW; most of them are still paying for their subscription. They don't want to pay two. If they want another MMO they have plenty of good non-subscription options. GW2 and ESO immediately come to mind. WoW and FFXIV are the only two subscription MMOs that actually have players right now. It's good business sense at this point to allow those who maybe won't or can't pay the subscription every month a way to play. Then you have more people in that maybe buy something from the cash shop when they have some extra money, or invite others who will play, or become so involved in the game that it gets figured into their monthly costs.

Do I think that a certain subset of players (crafters, or whatever) deserve a lower subscription cost? No. First of all, because it's not out of reach for non-crafters to make the gil/gold to purchase a token. Secondly, because not all crafters are even going to buy a token. I probably wouldn't if this system got added, because I want to keep my gil for other things. I can easily afford the subscription as it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

But no worries, it's just rhetoric - nobody really wants efficient gil sinks, people want expensive prestige items to show off for their gil that have absolutely zero effect on the economy because the gil used on them had long since stopped circulating and thus affecting anything in the first place. That's far more popular, if highly ineffective.

---

Oh, I missed this part. Which is just silly. I actually do want gil sinks. I've not once asked for "expensive prestige items" any time I've brought up gil sinks.

A game's economy is the most important part of the game to me. If a game doesn't have a good economy, I typically won't touch it. It's a very big reason why I barely play this game anymore.

This is even true of me in single player games. I'm often frustrated with them because the economy is almost always an after thought. In a single player game, there is no "prestige" for me to be looking for; I'm not going to be bragging to my friends that I totally bought some expensive item in a single player game. No, what I'm after is fun, and the part I care most about to achieve it is the game economy. This is true whether the game is multiplayer or not.

What else would a gil sink be, though, if not expensive "prestige" items? It can't be anything related to progression in the game, because that makes it extremely unfair and cutthroat. It has to be something for vanity, that provides no real game benefit. And, well, as I said before, people are vain. Expensive but useless vanity items are really, REALLY effective at removing money from a game's economy. That is the definition of a gil sink. And if you add enough of them, especially if it's something consumable, it will be efficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

First of all, because it's not out of reach for non-crafters to make the gil/gold to purchase a token.

---

Wouldn't this statement only be true if we knew how much the hypothetical token in FFXIV would be sold for?

Sure, we know it's true in WoW, but that's also a game that has squadron style missions that can reward some pretty serious gold (even post nerf from the WoD expansion), and last I played the World Quests could be pretty generous as well. Oh, and the vendor items for prices at things like gear/items is higher as well. Mobs drop more money. Etc. That's all without looking at selling on the MB.

For one who is just adventuring there may be a good number of sources of gil, but few reward more than a paltry amount, and most of those are either luck based (drops like the hair from HoH - which it should be noted is server dependent if it's still a higher priced item) or take time to accrue (crystals/shards from killing mobs, since you won't be using them if you're not crafting), and require using the MB.

Adventuring on its own just makes more in WoW - noticeably more - than it does in FFXIV.

So declaring that it's not out of reach here when we only have an example to go by in a game that works differently in how it rewards those whose primary currency source is adventuring seems like its pretty premature.

Plus that pesky little thing I mentioned in my first sentence - we don't actually know what the gil cost for a token in XIV would be.

I think all of us here in favor have been working under the assumption that it would be priced according to demand, as it is in WoW. In numerical terms the value of a single piece of gil is a lot lower than a single piece of gold. And while just doing dailies isn't as profitable in FFXIV as it is in WoW, in the sense that you aren't just handed gil. But instead doing dailies and adventuring and completing things like your roulette gives you materia and tokens that can be exchanged for items and sold. People who just do battle combat are not unable to make gil in this game.

Regarding Gil sinks, I wonder why there aren't 1 million gil mounts, 5 million gil mounts, 50 million gil mounts, 500 million gil mounts... give me a reason to save, and more. :)
I really hope SE is paying attention to this thread, and that we can hope to have this type of system in the future. Those who think it's doom and gloom have been proven wrong by the fact the systems work great in other games. I prefer the sub model for this game, and this would be a way to help offset RMT. It seems like a logical option at this point in time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Regarding Gil sinks, I wonder why there aren't 1 million gil mounts, 5 million gil mounts, 50 million gil mounts, 500 million gil mounts... give me a reason to save, and more. :)
I really hope SE is paying attention to this thread, and that we can hope to have this type of system in the future. Those who think it's doom and gloom have been proven wrong by the fact the systems work great in other games. I prefer the sub model for this game, and this would be a way to help offset RMT. It seems like a logical option at this point in time.

---

You mean like the mounts in the evil WoW? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

People who just do battle combat are not unable to make gil in this game.

---

I wasn't disputing that, just pointing out that the difference between crafters and non-crafters in WoW is noticeably less in terms of ability to make gold than the difference in FFXIV, and as such assuming that because adventurers can (generally - if the price spikes it tends to get out of range for most who just adventure, and selling regularly on their AH is a different beast what with the usage of mods and such to track sales and all that) in WoW that it will be the case here is speculative and premature.

In other words (to modify/mangle a metaphor) you're trying to sell your chickens (the idea that it will work here) before you've even counted the eggs, much less seen them hatch.

You'll hopefully forgive me if I find it extremely unlikely that the cost of a token would somehow rocket up so exponentially high that only the most dedicated of crafters could afford it.

Even if it DOES somehow end up getting put out of reach of non-crafters, I still don't think that's a good reason for it to not be added. You do not need to be a max level fully melded in the best gear crafter or gatherer to earn money.

This idea is not meant to be a way for everyone to pay for their subscription. This is a way for people who may not have time but do have money to earn some gil while those who may have a lot of gil can make use of their excess game resources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

You mean like the mounts in the evil WoW? :D

---

While I get the context of your comment, there are those that for whatever reason don't like to learn from others... I often like learning from others and then making changes to hopefully make it even better. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

You'll hopefully forgive me if I find it extremely unlikely that the cost of a token would somehow rocket up so exponentially high that only the most dedicated of crafters could afford it.

---

Wasn't suggesting that either.

Was only pointing out that as part of your support for it that you're assuming it's going to work one way in this game, based on how it works in another game...and the two games work differently enough for that difference to matter.

Honestly, it was more the "It works in WoW, it will work here" type thing that stood out to me as the glaring issue, as that is very much speculative, rather than any actual potential issue that non-gatherer/crafter players might have affording it. I generally think that making a conclusion based on what WoW did is putting your reasoning on shaky ground, as when it happens (and I've been watching it happen for 10+ years) it typically ignores why it worked in WoW. Even devs make this mistake (Wildstar being one of the more recent big examples).