Normal (newbie) version of the new Ultima fight for casuals? xD

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It takes 10 seconds on google to see several different times where players have used unintended strategies or found ways to lock the boss animation. It is not an unreasonable request that players are not rewarded for using exploits.

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You mean like Tank LB3ing through Byakko EX's mechanic, thus avoiding it altogether? Or the Ghost skip in Phantom Train Savage? Because both were cited by the developers themselves as not being exploits. Sooooo

Its more like certain things that are completely breaking things take time to actually reach the devolpers compared to how fast players think it'll reach them. When the players finally got the devs attention on Ungarmax? Fixed so fast one would think they summoned Alexander to help.

Not everything players use that are unintended by the devs when creating content is an exploit and/or bug. Just because they forget to think how Tank LBs might be used in certain situations instead of DPSing/DPS LB doesn't mean they aren't okay with it (and they themselves said they are okay with it.) Apparently Ninjas doing Huton before pulls was also unintended by the devs when Ninjas were first released, yet not only has noone been in trouble for doing so its now considered the right thing to do by the devs too when devolping new Nin skills.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You mean like Tank LB3ing through Byakko EX's mechanic, thus avoiding it altogether? Or the Ghost skip in Phantom Train Savage? Because both were cited by the developers themselves as not being exploits. Sooooo

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You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

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She's equating them with Ungarmax, which is actually cheating. Tank LB3 isn't an exploit, it's simply a different strategy the devs didn't intend for. You can maybe argue some grey area with the ghost skip, but even that's a reach.

Hardcore in MMOs is a function of difficulty and time. FFXIV is casual. It may have the difficulty, but it makes up for it in one of the least time burdens of any MMO. FFXI, old school EQ, and Lineage 2 are probably the hardcore side. Peple here complain about the story quests, which are all easy and take maybe a month or so. In older games, getting to level cap could take a year of mob grinding and farming.

Hardcore gamer...eh. The term is kind of muddied now. I don't think world firsters are hardcore, more "pro" because hardcore was never really about being good at a game, but games becoming your life. We kind of have the pro gamer now, the person who plays it professionally like a sport.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You may have misinterpreted their words. Both ARE exploits, and the fights werent intended to be beaten that way. What the Devs actually said is that they acknowledge that these methods exist and that they aren't going to do anything about them.

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An exploit literally means using elements of the game in ways that they're not meant to be used. There isn't a single moment in battle where an LB3 of any kind being used is an "exploit" (unless you've somehow figured out how to use it without having the gauge full) because LBs are meant to be used in battle.

Are they cheesing it? Sure, if you want to call it that. Are they an exploit? No. Given that LB3s are there to be used whenever you believe they'll best serve your party, it's actually a situation where the players are adept at actually choosing the best moment, even if the devs didn't expect them to think of that strategy.

To he fair, not all encounter design loopholes are equal. A4S suicide strats or skipping the ghosts are one thing. Spin2win was arguably stepping over the line.

I’m not sure why Kisa seems to be so insistent that breaking encounters is an NA/EU thing though? We simply tend to have a wider variety of strats for any given fight, wheres the pug focus in JP has them leaning towards one strat. Our variety gives us a better chance of finding loopsholes.

If you think JPs are above exploiting poor encounter design, A4S would like a word with you

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

Agreeing with this. As a casual player, I've partied up with "hardcore/elite" players from an old FC of mine thinking they would be amazing. Brilliant crafters and MB management skill, yet despite their hardcore raiding and being categorised as "hardcore," they were absolutely awful at their classes - and not just their specific classes, but at like... dungeoning in general. Kept getting hit by aoes, slow reaction times, mindless gameplay in general. It didn't matter what class they played as or what dungeon or raid (that I experienced with them) they were doing, they sucked and it was pretty miserable partying up with them (we just didn't... have chemistry, I guess.). XD Hardcore does not always mean good player. Casual does not always mean bad player and I don't think these terms have ever "evolved" to indicate otherwise as a community, but maybe in some individuals' minds it has? But... yenno, those individuals can think what they want.




Also agreeing with this.

(Edit: The rest of your snippet was very interesting as well in retrospect of my excerpt above.)

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I thought so as well, very good post Lambdafish

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

An exploit literally means using elements of the game in ways that they're not meant to be used. There isn't a single moment in battle where an LB3 of any kind being used is an "exploit" (unless you've somehow figured out how to use it without having the gauge full) because LBs are meant to be used in battle.

Are they cheesing it? Sure, if you want to call it that. Are they an exploit? No. Given that LB3s are there to be used whenever you believe they'll best serve your party, it's actually a situation where the players are adept at actually choosing the best moment, even if the devs didn't expect them to think of that strategy.

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We are getting very off topic, so I don't want to to dwell on this too much. But the difference between O5S WAR strat and ungermax isn't the difference between exploit and not an exploit, its the difference between a technical exploit and a design exploit, which the devs (quite rightly) handle differently. Both are the result of developer oversight, and both result in unintended drops in difficulty. You are right that LB3 can be used whenever the player feels best, but in this case, the devs didn't account for or realize that LB3 was both available and able to skip the mechanic, which is on the developers, not the players, as many design exploits are (though I should remind you that even despite that, the titan-egi Ramuh exploit was fixed quite quickly). The reason that design exploits are handled differently is that they are not "system breaking", or the result of bugs, such as Ungermax, and are simply oversights by the devs when it comes to fight design. This was touched upon by Yoshi P regarding the fight design of Zurvan and the skip soar controversy.

Ultimately an exploit is when you "exploit a poorly designed or broken part of the game to achieve an advantage not intended by the developer" which is true for all of the above examples.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Ultimately an exploit is when you "exploit a poorly designed or broken part of the game to achieve an advantage not intended by the developer" which is true for all of the above examples.

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I don't see how tank LB3 in Byakko is exploiting anything - it's literally just using a tank LB3 for it's designed purpose. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean?

If using tank LB3 to mitigate otherwise unsurvivable incoming damage is an exploit what would be a non-exploitative use of it? It has no other function, all it does is a big chunk of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I don't see how tank LB3 in Byakko is exploiting anything - it's literally just using a tank LB3 for it's designed purpose. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean?

If using tank LB3 to mitigate otherwise unsurvivable incoming damage is an exploit what would be a non-exploitative use of it? It has no other function, all it does is a big chunk of mitigation.

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I addressed that in my previous post, from a player point of view you are right, but from a developer point of view it was not the intended way to beat the fight. The point is that mechanically either the tank LB3 should not have been able to mitigate the damage, or the mechanic changed so that tank LB3 was not viable. This was an error on the Devs part and they cannot go back on that, but by definition it is still an exploit and falls into the same categories as WAR ghost strat, titan-egi Ramuh, and phase skip strategies of older expansions (which you will notice don't happen any more)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

phase skip strategies of older expansions (which you will notice don't happen any more)

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I'm not sure specifically which phase skip strats you're talking about, but there are already at least two extreme primals that you can phase early and skip mechanics with high DPS: Shinryu; if you got him to a certain percentage would skip large arena Divebomb, puddle stack (Hypercharge, iirc), and second Tidal Wave (I think it was 44% and he would automatically do his ATM and phase into adds), and Tsukuyomi; getting her to 80% in phase 1 can skip the second Reprimand, and 34% in moon phase can skip the second meteors (and if you do it quick enough, the first tankbuster/swap).

Not sure if things like this are what you're referring to, but phase pushes at least still exist.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I addressed that in my previous post, from a player point of view you are right, but from a developer point of view it was not the intended way to beat the fight. The point is that mechanically either the tank LB3 should not have been able to mitigate the damage, or the mechanic changed so that tank LB3 was not viable. This was an error on the Devs part and they cannot go back on that, but by definition it is still an exploit and falls into the same categories as WAR ghost strat, titan-egi Ramuh, and phase skip strategies of older expansions (which you will notice don't happen any more)

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With all due respect you aren't addressing what I said.

Tank LB3 exists to mitigate huge amounts of damage (more than a full health bar when used for such an attack) so I don't understand how using it to literally do the thing it is designed for is exploitative.

I understand your premise that since the developers didn't foresee this use of this ability that it is an exploit but I don't agree that that is actually the definition of an exploit.

Is tank LB3 only not an exploit when it is literally the only way to avoid wiping to a mechanic? Where is the line here? I'm sorry if I'm pressing you but I don't think your stance holds up under scrutiny.

Using an ability for it's intended purpose is not exploitative. At some point by this definition generating an additional LB gague later in a fight and using it to deal a large amount of damage to the boss is exploitative because it also allows the skipping of some mechanics because the boss doesn't live as long. Hell, even no dupe party comps would be exploitative because we are garnering an advantage that we wouldn't necessarily have under other circumstances.

This seems like a very poorly defined grey area that isn't a proper representation of what an exploit is. An optimization strategy is not the same as cheating. The squad lb was exploiting a mistake made by the devs because clearly it was not meant to be used in actual duties but it wasn't coded properly, that's the only thing mentioned here that seems exploitative because it's the only time an action was used for a purpose other than it's intended one.

All these "Ultimate" fights is just nothing more than red meat for the 1% who want some self important "World First". Nothing special about this fight, it's just rehash but a harder version for meh weapons that will be outdated eventually anyway, so why bother? SE wants to keep their hardcore minority happy so now we have Ultimate.


Even if it was just for glamour, I feels like it would be a waste of time and effort. If this is SE's way of creating content, then they get a F. Same with savage, it's just completely pointless and just another form of content skill level segregation and that turns me off from that and things like Ultimate.



In FFXI, you weren't gated because of your skill level or what not, you could group up with hardcore peeps, even if you weren't as skilled as them and you'd work together for the WIN and the loot. Even after SoA with the introduction of "ilvls" it wasn't really hard to build up but that didn't stop people from grouping with people with kinds of skill levels and different sets of gear. Everyone worked together and the content was very exciting and enjoyable to do. Want to do delve? Yeah, lets do it? Wanna do WKR? Let's go! But in FFXIV, probably due to Yoshi-P, or 1.0 or whoever, they decided to have content gated behind other content. Wanna do Ultimate Ultima? Clear *insert content here*.



This game's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. There's just no sense of achievement or accomplishment in this game. It's really shallow and disinteresting to do, hence why some, like me, don't bother.



Yeah, I'm a filthy casual, maybe even a little simple minded as far as things go in this game, but coming from 10 years of FFXI, this game's endgame needs to change. Either, remove Yoshi-P as director, or remove the repetitive stale formula. Something's gotta give cause at this rate this game isn't gonna have great longevity like FFXI.




/2 cents

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Originally Posted by Usho

All these "Ultimate" fights is just nothing more than red meat for the 1% who want some self important "World First". Nothing special about this fight, it's just rehash but a harder version for meh weapons that will be outdated eventually anyway, so why bother? SE wants to keep their hardcore minority happy so now we have Ultimate.


Even if it was just for glamour, I feels like it would be a waste of time and effort. If this is SE's way of creating content, then they get a F. Same with savage, it's just completely pointless and just another form of content skill level segregation and that turns me off from that and things like Ultimate.



In FFXI, you weren't gated because of your skill level or what not, you could group up with hardcore peeps, even if you weren't as skilled as them and you'd work together for the WIN and the loot. Even after SoA with the introduction of "ilvls" it wasn't really hard to build up but that didn't stop people from grouping with people with kinds of skill levels and different sets of gear. Everyone worked together and the content was very exciting and enjoyable to do. Want to do delve? Yeah, lets do it? Wanna do WKR? Let's go! But in FFXIV, probably due to Yoshi-P, or 1.0 or whoever, they decided to have content gated behind other content. Wanna do Ultimate Ultima? Clear *insert content here*.



This game's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. There's just no sense of achievement or accomplishment in this game. It's really shallow and disinteresting to do, hence why some, like me, don't bother.



Yeah, I'm a filthy casual, maybe even a little simple minded as far as things go in this game, but coming from 10 years of FFXI, this game's endgame needs to change. Either, remove Yoshi-P as director, or remove the repetitive stale formula. Something's gotta give.




/2 cents

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To be honest your opinions on endgame content don't matter since you don't do it. I wouldn't walk into someone's job and tell them how to do their work if it wasn't something in my field, this is the same. You claim that endgame in this game isn't rewarding but people who do it say otherwise. Your opinion does not hold more weight than theirs.

Frankly your opinion matters less since it's less informed as you haven't experienced the community or content you decide to speak about.

You group with higher skilled players all the time - any time you enter DF you get a range of people from all walks of the game. You can get hardcore raiders or people who click each of their skills to use them or some of both. The only content that leans towards a more specific skill level is high end because less skilled players can't or won't get involved.

Even amongst my group of friends we have people who are progging Ultimate with lots of God Kefka clears and people who play super casually and don't go beyond normal raids or a 24man. No one disrespects anyone else because they are more or less skilled. This idea that the game is segregated is just a flat out lie.

The formula is stale - and guess what! Ultimate is a change to the establushed formula! It's new content that hasn't been done before. Maybe before you complain about how stale things feel you should broaden your horizons and open yourself up to new experiences.

Or keep whining about nothing I guess. Whatever floats your salty little boat.

You’re more than entitled to have your own opinion, Usho, but you cannot define what is a “sense of achievement or accomplishment” for other people. So I sincerely hope you’re only speaking for yourself when you say that, because I get a a huge sense of achievement and accomplishment when I clear a tier and finally get my BiS. I would say a lot of raiders probably feel the same.

As for requirements for doing Ultimate, if you cannot clear Neo Exdeath or God Kefka, you cannot clear UCoB or UwU. Both require far more optimization than even the last floor of each current tier. Ultimate isn’t something that just anyone can waltz into, so the prerequisites have always made sense to me.

As for the weapons, I find them pretty awesome, and hope to add the UCoB and UwU bows to my collection some day. Be it if they’re irrelevant in terms of ilvl/only glamour or if they are actually still relevant until the next tier.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Only Second Coil was really hit with the nerf hammer, changing instant kill mechanics to... not. I've actually never really tried any of the Coils at minimal ilevel and now kinda want to now...

Except T9. I really do not like the dive bombs and elemental mechanics in that fight :(

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I forgot to answer this, but Twintania (T5) was also nerfed. They nerfed her Twister mechanic. And I think there was a turn in Final Coil that also had some nerfs. T10, I think.

As someone who has cleared UCoB and currently progging UwU, I personally think that these fights should remain ilvl synced for the remainder of the game. As people stated before, there is no story tied into Ultimate fights(normal mode) as there was with the past raid tiers nor is it a means of actually gearing up to max ilvl(savage). For what the author of this thread requested, I would not care if they released a "story" mode version if it means 2 things; No loot(aka Ultimate weapons) can be acquired from the story mode fights with totems and there is no achievement for completing said duty( The Legend, The Ultimate Legend). If I had to choose unsyncing Ultimate fights in later expansions vs making a dumbed down fight for casuals to enjoy, I would gladly pick the later.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I don't fabricate things, use your google noodle. It's not my fault some hardcore raiders want to deny their favorite strategies are exploits.

It takes 10 seconds on google to see several different times where players have used unintended strategies or found ways to lock the boss animation. It is not an unreasonable request that players are not rewarded for using exploits.

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Please link sources: And please - leave out Ungaramax.

The last time you linked sources (remember your HILARIOUS WoW AV example that a dozen posters ridiculed you out of the thread for?) - so please put some actual effort here. Keep in mind that "creatives use of mechanics" does not qualify as as an exploit. Stuff like Ungaramax does. Position hacking, etc.

I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I forgot to answer this, but Twintania (T5) was also nerfed. They nerfed her Twister mechanic. And I think there was a turn in Final Coil that also had some nerfs. T10, I think.

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To be fair, I think they had to nerf it because back in 2.0, there was some obnoxious latency issue (3 seconds or something), which could potentially make the fight difficult to deal with if you played on a potato PC, or PS3. It still instantly kills you if I recall, so you still need to move to avoid getting killed by it.
Only thing in T10 that was nerfed, from what I can remember from the patch notes, were the trash mobs. This applies to T11 as well. The bosses themselves were otherwise left alone.