Black magic...kinda sucks

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Originally Posted by Malkria

But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

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None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

None of which has anything to do with the discussion at hand, so you can put your victim card away.

There are nuances of the job that you aren't going to get until you hit 70. As it is, a lot of jobs after SB's arrival are incomplete until you hit 70. Still, I stand by my suggestion that if the turret aspect of BLM feels off or doesn't work for you, try one of the other casters and see if that fits your playstyle more.

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If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

If there are "nuances of the job you aren't going to get until you hit 70" (which by the way I have)...then when you say as far as you have gotten is lvl 30 how would you know how right or wrong I am? Because everyone else is saying so? As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

If your argument is that I just don't know the job, when you yourself have admitted you have played the job less then me, then shouldn't by your logic you be staying out of this? So either you are admitting you can have an opinion about a job before 70, that you are simply parroting others here, or that you are a hypocrite. Which is it, or is it 'D' and all of the above?

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I won't speak for others, but I specifically never called you a he or she. I responded directly to you, not in third person. With that said, I think correcting them once would have been enough. If they change their opinion based on your gender, that's a them problem and something they would need to deal with. Back on topic, I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific. However, if KaivaC was trying to talk about BLM, and is not 70, my opinion would be the same for them as it is for you. Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

Level isn't a measure of proficiency.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

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I honestly could care less what your gender is. My response to you would've been the same. RL gender has absolutely no bearing here in regards to this discussion.

I'll state again, most jobs are not fully complete until they hit 70, due to the changes that SB brought across the board. Based on the posts you've been leaving, the core function of BLM, which is to minimize movement as much as possible, conflicts with your playstyle. Which is why I suggested that you should try out SMN or RDM and see if those fit your style instead. It doesn't take a genius to try a job and give it a reasonable amount of time in close-to-relevant content to try and see a little bit of what you're coming from. You are wanting BLM to fit into a role that it just isn't designed for. Less time on a job does not mean that I can't pick up on a lot of things in a very short amount of time. My opinion is my own and I stand by what I say - but I do point out that other far more experienced BLMs have indeed pointed out flaws in many of your posts and I feel like they do have a point as well.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Until there is extensive experience, I'd defer to the more experienced person as they've been playing it through several iterations, and thus have more of a baseline to make suggestions. Not to say you shouldn't be expressing your opinion, just that I wouldn't put much weight in it. Yes, this holds true for me as well as I'm just getting around to having BLM be my main, so I have a long way to go in learning all the nuances before offering suggestions.

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Which in turn is flawed for various reasons. Already I have had people telling me that Heavensward or 4.1 BLM had it much worse then it is currently at. While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the isuess being discussed are how the job is played TODAY. That also negates a new person who may not be a 'veteran' of the job, but still is a vital source of feedback because a new perspective might be overlooked by someone who is used to a certain way of doing things. That would be like ignoring the feedback of new blood in your workplace because "well that just isn't how things are done" even though said feedback might very well make things better in whatever regards. Third...just because things work again does not mean it is a good design. Just because something is functional does not mean it is a good design, these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, the biggest fallacy of this argument is that it would me we should always defer to the person with the most experience, but that in itself is dangerous logic because just because someone has been playing longer does not automatically translate to a better understanding of a game or even game design. For all you the dissenting voice could have years of experience outside of said game either as a "professional" gamer, game designer, reviewer, or any other job that requires critical thought of how a game is put together. Even if they didn't, depending on their background of games played with a diverse enough history they could still have just as valid a critical eye as those who have a more professional take of the matter. So simply going by "Well they have played more then you, so they know more" is actually not a good worldview to take, in any part of one's life. That is why we have critical thinking skills (or we should hopefully).

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I'm reading KaivaC's comments as a generalization (as in, several jobs don't fully flesh out until 70), not BLM specific.

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Except he literally called me out to say that it was because of me and THIS thread that he was even taking an interest in the job, going so far as to cite playtime in the PoTD as in his eyes negating my argument. So again, going by your logic he shouldn't be weighing in. So either his viewpoint is valid despite less experience then me in the job, his argument is based on parroting others in regards to this job, or he is a hypocrite. By specifically stating I don't understand the nuances, he is inferring that even with less experience and less time spent in the class he is able to understand the fundamentals of the job and how it is meant to be played. In which case I could turn around and use the argument made against me in that he hasn't hit 70 and isn't as experienced in the job so he doesn't know what he is talking about. Which in turn is demonstrating all the fallacy I was pointing out above.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Level isn't a measure of proficiency.

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Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Which flies in the face of everything people were telling me in the beginning in that I hadn't gotten to 70 and thus couldn't make an accurate judgment on the job. Funny how that works now that you have someone who is less the 70, and who agrees with your stance, how suddenly level doesn't matter for knowing the 'nuances' of this job.

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I ain't everyone.

Level is not a measure of proficiency. It doesn't take much to figure this out. Understanding and execution are two different things, but neither is related to level, and barely related to the leveling process, as is readily apparent.

You know what measures proficiency?

Proficiency.

How can you tell who's proficient at Black Mage? You take the aggregate data available and look at who does the best of them. Most actions taken, most damage dealt, most uptime, least damage taken, amount of single buffs received, etc.

Even if every single black mage was playing it wrong, the one sitting on top is still the best one of the dumpster. High Level Black Mage play is about taking the simple mechanics presented and working them in an environment that seems antithetical to the Black Mage's existence.

That's the point of the job. There's no shame in going elsewhere if that's not your stick.

YoshiP has said in interviews that BLM is meant to be a complex job. It's the one he plays and he said specifically he doesn't want it overly simplified. And that's fine. We have lots of jobs specifically so we can have different play styles and different levels of complexity. BLM is on the higher end.

If the job play style doesn't line up with your play style, that's fine. Just play something else. But it doesn't mean BLM sucks. They're also helping it movement wise next patch, so there's that.

I'm also not sure why this thread has gotten so hostile. It's just an opinion of a job. No need to bring personalities or anything else into it.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Finally, the biggest fallacy of this argument is that it would me we should always defer to the person with the most experience, but that in itself is dangerous logic because just because someone has been playing longer does not automatically translate to a better understanding of a game or even game design.

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So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I'm also not sure why this thread has gotten so hostile. It's just an opinion of a job. No need to bring personalities or anything else into it.

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I guess people miss arguing with a certain someone xD

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Originally Posted by P_Wing

So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

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They don't have to agree when its an opinion. Walls of text won't change that.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

How can you tell who's proficient at Black Mage? You take the aggregate data available and look at who does the best of them. Most actions taken, most damage dealt, most uptime, least damage taken, amount of single buffs received, etc.

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So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues? Despite the fact that A) pasrsers are against the game's ToS, and B) that isn't true. You can understand a job, examine a job, and find fault with a job all without needing to top any sort of parser. That literally has NOTHING to do with juding if someone has an understanding a job...well unless you are one of those people who judge others based on parsers but, again, that would be breaching the ToS and basically making you a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

YoshiP has said in interviews that BLM is meant to be a complex job. It's the one he plays and he said specifically he doesn't want it overly simplified. And that's fine. We have lots of jobs specifically so we can have different play styles and different levels of complexity. BLM is on the higher end.

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Which is fine...where did I say I want the job made simpler? My having an issue with aspects of the job has never led to me asking for the job to be made simpler, and in fact the ideas I presented to "fix" the issues I have were specifically in mind to preserver the turret mentality of the job. I have no issues with the fire and ice mechanic or the cast times in and of themselves, it's mainly around the timer and how that directly relates to mobility, which both in my eyes could be done in a much more natural feeling way WITHOUT sacrificing the BLM's identity or the major turret play style people like about it.

Also...is this a complex or simple job? Because the reigning mentality is that this is supposed to be a very straightforwards and "simple" turret style DPS job.

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Originally Posted by P_Wing

So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

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Well off the bat, the people who don't lead off with "you just don't understand the nuances of the job"...because yes I get that it's a turret job. That was NEVER in question. The issue I take with the job is in the execution of said game-play style and how it well it meshes, or doesn't, with the overall game. Thing is, yes the job is 100% playable and I have never argued that. But what I have stated is that the job could be done in a way that keeps the turret gameplay while still keeping the job as mobile as the game demands most of the time.

My biggest issue is that again the job relies on momentum so much, which is fine, but then uses a timer that just stops the DPS when it runs out...and to me that isn't fine. As supposedly Yoshi wants, this job could stand to have a little more ACTUAL nuance with how it built up power. Such as getting faster at casting and/or more power the longer you stay in a spot. But by making it all about a timer, and moving between GCD ticks, not only does it make the job feel janky to play but it is in contrast to how every other job simply moves when needed to avoid mechanics. Which again while it does make the BLM "unique" it also puts it in start contrast unnecessarily when better mechanic options exist and have been done.

Yep. I'm saying proficiency isn't given because the number next to your name is 70. It's earned.

It is one of the most well oiled DPS jobs currently available, and nearly completely self sufficient. It depends on no one for its performance, and literally everything else they do get is considered a bonus.

It is engaging. It is masked by a layer of simplicity for the mastery required on a fight by fight basis, and rewarded properly for doing so.

Just because you haven't gotten to that point yet doesn't make it the job's fault. You have been given every tool you need to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues?

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I think there are issues that is gone with enough practice, and issues that cannot be solved by practicing (like BLM lacking party buffs, etc).
Your issues are the former, and it doesn't mean it shouldn't be solved. Because they will make entry to the class easier and probably more people will play the class. That's fine on its own.

However, knowing SE, people here knows that if they buff the AF/UI timers like you said, BLM's damage would be nerfed in exchange for that buff.
Therefore, people who doesn't have issues with the timers in the first place would not want that.

That's behind the reason why we have been saying that it's not the real issues here. We can't get all the convenient buffs in the world without trading something for it.

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Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?

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The simple fact that the casting times of multiple rotation staple Black Mage spells are longer than the GCD when other jobs have at most one or two occasional abilities like this, if even any.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues? Despite the fact that A) pasrsers are against the game's ToS, and B) that isn't true. You can understand a job, examine a job, and find fault with a job all without needing to top any sort of parser. That literally has NOTHING to do with juding if someone has an understanding a job...well unless you are one of those people who judge others based on parsers but, again, that would be breaching the ToS and basically making you a jerk.

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Your statement is confusing...........So you're saying that judging your damage output in a damage dealing job against the average of your peers output in the same job is not a fair appraisal of proficiency in said job? How else would you measure proficiency?

Understanding a job DOES NOT equal being proficient at execution of said job. That's like saying the 50 year old 400lb guy that never leaves his couchis a better Basketball player than Michael Jordan because he can site everything there is to know about basketball.

What people keep trying to point out to you is not whether or not you UNDERSTAND the job, it is that it is impossible to competently judge the job until you are PROFICIENT at it; and that the complaints you have raised are issues due to a lack of proficiency.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

But what I have stated is that the job could be done in a way that keeps the turret gameplay while still keeping the job as mobile as the game demands most of the time.

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tur·ret
ˈtərət/Submit
noun
noun: turret; plural noun: turrets; noun: turret shell; plural noun: turret shells
1.
a small tower on top of a larger tower or at the corner of a building or wall, typically of a castle.
a low, flat armored gun emplacement, typically one that revolves, in a ship, aircraft, fort, or tank.

This is where you lose people and credibility that you understand the job. Please explain to me where any of that definition sounds like a Turret is mobile. A turret is a fixed position damage weapon.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

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People are accusing you of playing the victim for remarks like this...

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

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Originally Posted by Malkria

I must just be a random silly girl who dared question the community and not like their beloved job and so uppity as to call out the fact that it really could have been done better. Or since everyone was assuming I was a guy, just some random bloke who just couldn't wrap his head around a three button combo.

So sorry I am 'offended' by a bunch of dudes who apparently like to tell me what I was thinking or feeling when I made the post or how stupid I am for 'just not getting' the BLM job. After a few days of having a group of people talk down to you, I imagine getting a little terse would be natural for anyone. If you don't like that, oh well. I would say maybe treat the next person better, but that won't happen because you all are "right" and I am "wrong" because reasons. 9.9

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.

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You have abruptly made everyone's disagreement of your opinion all about your gender. Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion. No one cares whether you are male or female. We simply don't agree with your ideas for Black Mage. Forums are meant to have opposing discussions. If you cannot handle criticism or disagreement, go back to your 50 person FC. They, apparently, share your stance.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion.

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And for something deemed so irrelevant, its still goes on.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

What people keep trying to point out to you is not whether or not you UNDERSTAND the job, it is that it is impossible to competently judge the job until you are PROFICIENT at it; and that the complaints you have raised are issues due to a lack of proficiency.

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Again by that logic we shouldn't have reviews, commentators, or critics who were not first top of the line in whatever they are talking about. That obviously is not the case, and therefore YES you can judge something if you have an actual understanding of it without being a top tier player fist.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Please explain to me where any of that definition sounds like a Turret is mobile. A turret is a fixed position damage weapon.

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Um...ships, tanks, and whatever else a turret can be MOUNTED on let alone fired while on the move? Or do all those things need to stop for the turret to be used? In fact here is proof positive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3iRvDzF_w

So your point about turrets having to be stationary was what again? Because while I am all for rewarding staying stationary, it doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be able to move when necessary to avoid mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You have abruptly made everyone's disagreement of your opinion all about your gender. Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion. No one cares whether you are male or female. We simply don't agree with your ideas for Black Mage. Forums are meant to have opposing discussions. If you cannot handle criticism or disagreement, go back to your 50 person FC. They, apparently, share your stance.

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Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

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Originally Posted by P_Wing

That's behind the reason why we have been saying that it's not the real issues here. We can't get all the convenient buffs in the world without trading something for it.

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Thank you for actually putting some thought into your post, it's a breath of fresh air. So to start lets examine your statement, your logic in that if they buff the timer then they have to nerf the damage is fair but isn't the only way they could change it. As I stated they could combine the ley line ability into a mechanic that the longer you stay in an area the faster you cat. While this might necessitate a slight nerf since in theory you could be casting faster longer then you could otherwise, it still would be in keeping with the 'turret' play style while also giving a very natural reason to stay in one spot. The only thing the timer does as it is now is A) push players to keep momentum, and B) encourage good placement where you can focus on rotation. However one feels much more natural to simply playing the game vs keeping a constant eye on an arbitrary timer.

The core issue here for me is that it doesn't matter how good I get with the job, the job doesn't feel good to play because of that timer. Even worse, I have seen similar jobs where you are encouraged to build momentum by staying still or by simply playing better. In this case though it's all about keeping a timer going...and that isn't fun, and even worse there are better and more elegant ways to do everything the timer is trying to push players to do in ways that feel more natural to simply playing the job. The timer itself isn't even really an issue until you are trying to squeeze spells in that don't refresh it, which can be compounded in team play when you were counting on a spell to refresh the timer so you can keep killing mobs...but the mob died and you don't have time to hit transpose even to sorta keep the momentum going. Even if you can quickly get the buff and rhythm going again, it is a very clear and obvious wall you hit every time it happens that just disrupts the flow of the game.

THAT is the crux of my argument. Yes you can get around it, and even succeed as the job, but it doesn't change that the timer is both a distracting element and something that breaks the flow of the game is such a brutal manner unnecessarily when better mechanic options exist to make the job feel more natural.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Again by that logic we shouldn't have reviews, commentators, or critics who were not first top of the line in whatever they are talking about. That obviously is not the case, and therefore YES you can judge something if you have an actual understanding of it without being a top tier player fist.

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Except that reviewers, commentators and critics typically DO have quite an extensive background in whatever field they are operating in and generally only give HIGH level opinions like: "Black Mage is not fun to play" not "Black Mage sucks, here are the specifics why, and this is the only way to fix it". So NO. Your point does not hold logic.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Um...ships, tanks, and whatever else a turret can be MOUNTED on let alone fired while on the move? Or do all those things need to stop for the turret to be used? In fact here is proof positive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3iRvDzF_w

So your point about turrets having to be stationary was what again? Because while I am all for rewarding staying stationary, it doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be able to move when necessary to avoid mechanics.

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The TURRET is not mobile, it is mounted on a mobile object. The TURRET cannot go ANYWHERE without the object it is mounted on, hence it is an fixed position, immobile piece of equipment. EXACTLY what mobile object is a Black Mage (aka TURRET) mounted on? SO to clarify my point on Turrets is that they are stationary damage weapons. I can guarantee you that if you were in a fire-fight and told someone to go get you the Turret, you'd get the biggest "are you an idiot" look ever.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

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Nah, the tone of responses changed once you went all SJW on this thread and started accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you as a Misogynist. You yourself changed the tone.

Huh wha Sorry was falling asleep while casting my blm rotation so slow so very very slow.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Again by that logic we shouldn't have reviews, commentators, or critics who were not first top of the line in whatever they are talking about. That obviously is not the case, and therefore YES you can judge something if you have an actual understanding of it without being a top tier player fist.

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You're making complaints about dungeons (particularly, LEVELING dungeons),, something that most players in the game consider to be the bare minimum of content, and haven't shown the least bit of evidence of your proficiency. Certainly, proficiency isn't a requirement for having opinions of any quality but most people will question your legitimacy if you have proven to not know what you're talking about.

(See: the Cuphead controversy, or when Polygon played Doom 2016. The absolutely terrible gameplay provided by Polygon called into question many of their other reviews (including Starfox Zero) because of just how bad they played.)

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Um...ships, tanks, and whatever else a turret can be MOUNTED on let alone fired while on the move? Or do all those things need to stop for the turret to be used? In fact here is proof positive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3iRvDzF_w

So your point about turrets having to be stationary was what again? Because while I am all for rewarding staying stationary, it doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be able to move when necessary to avoid mechanics.

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...you... do realize that the turret itself doesn't move (beyond rotation), even though it's mounted on a plane, ship, tank, dinosaur or whatever... right...? You shot yourself in the foot with this point to get a "gotcha!"

In either case, the "turret" gameplay refers to the idea of "moving as little as possible to maximize damage". That's it. All of our attacks are on the GCD, we have abilities designed to counteract direct movement (whether it be our teleports which are getting improved animation locks or Manaward and its GLORIOUS 35% Max HP damage shield) and we can still slidecast in emergencies.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

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You have made statements where you directly correlate disagreement with you with misogyny and harassment. Like, literally, you have shifted the tone of many of your dissenting posts from simply "people don't understand where I'm coming from!" to "you guys are misogynists!"

Nobody made it a big deal that you're pulling a "victim card" until you started to say things like "shouting down the dissenter until they go away!" "nobody on the internet ever argues reasonably!" "you guys are gonna say something like go back to the kitchen!"

I mean, no offense... but it seems like you almost don't think through the things you type.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

"you guys are gonna say something like go back to the kitchen!"

I mean, no offense... but it seems like you almost don't think through the things you type.

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That last one in full context is not a victim card.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Sounds to me that the detractors in this thread can't be bothered to argue why the job is fine as it is when better options exist. But hey, I'm on the internet so I guess it's my fault for thinking people actually try to use logic to convince each other...I keep forgetting the preferred method is shout the other person down as a group, make them a strawman, and put intent and words in front of what they actually are saying. Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.

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Using the gender card as sarcasm isn't playing the victim. A bit snide, yeah but hey, its fallen to an ad hominem thread at this point so don't mind me. I'll go grab my popcorn.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Except that reviewers, commentators and critics typically DO have quite an extensive background in whatever field they are operating in and generally only give HIGH level opinions like: "Black Mage is not fun to play" not "Black Mage sucks, here are the specifics why, and this is the only way to fix it". So NO. Your point does not hold logic.

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So first of all, where did I say "this is the only way to fix it"? Second, you yourself just said that people who have extensive background in the field...but the thing is not everyone does. Roger and Ebert being one of the earliest examples I can think of, who became film critics at first because they were told to be. Other popular reviewers just doing it without an extensive background in reviewing games, who now run popular channels on youtube. So if there is a fallacy of logic here, it's on you.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

The TURRET is not mobile, it is mounted on a mobile object. The TURRET cannot go ANYWHERE without the object it is mounted on, hence it is an fixed position, immobile piece of equipment. EXACTLY what mobile object is a Black Mage (aka TURRET) mounted on? SO to clarify my point on Turrets is that they are stationary damage weapons. I can guarantee you that if you were in a fire-fight and told someone to go get you the Turret, you'd get the biggest "are you an idiot" look ever.

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Well for one in terms of the game it's mounted on legs, second then that negates that BLM should be able to cast on the move with the much vaunted swift and triple-cast abilities, third setting up your gun on in a turret fashion on the field grats better accuracy and cover but doesn't keep you from booking out should the need arrive (such as the arrival of a much bigger gun like a tank). Plus the whole point of putting a turret on a mobile base is so that it HAS the mobility to move out of harms way...again, just like what I am saying the BLM should be able to do. So your logic falls flat, again.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

You're making complaints about dungeons (particularly, LEVELING dungeons),, something that most players in the game consider to be the bare minimum of content, and haven't shown the least bit of evidence of your proficiency.

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Complaints...so citing EXAMPLES is now a form of complaining? Wow...I honestly have nothing I can say to that without breaking rules. As for showing proficiency, in what form do you want it? Logs? As in the logs that are against ToS and/or the rules to demand or harass another player about? Those logs?

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

...you... do realize that the turret itself doesn't move (beyond rotation), even though it's mounted on a plane, ship, tank, dinosaur or whatever... right...? You shot yourself in the foot with this point to get a "gotcha!"

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Well I suppose you could argue that all things are relative to each other and that from a certain point of view mounting a turret on a ship means it doesn't move...but most people would agree that a turret moves when the object it is attached to moves. Most people would also agree that this is done so that the firepower the turret brings has better mobility so it can be moved as necessary to both maximize it's effectiveness and keep it out of danger from returning fire. But I suppose there is always room for more...unique viewpoints.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Nobody made it a big deal that you're pulling a "victim card" until you started to say things like "shouting down the dissenter until they go away!" "nobody on the internet ever argues reasonably!" "you guys are gonna say something like go back to the kitchen!"

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Oh really...so by constantly stating my opinion didn't matter because I didn't understand the "nuances" of the job, by having my intentions and thoughts dictated to me, and constantly being told to just go somewhere else what does that say about the community? The only reason you claim I am a SJW is because I pointed out you were talking to a woman like that, and if I were a guy who pointed it out the response would have been either to 'man up' or 'get a thicker skin'. That alone says more about you, and the community, then it does about me waiting three days after trying to explain my viewpoint patiently before revealing I was a woman in both a snide and frustrated way. Also using the "guys" in quotes wasn't code for misogynists...it was so I didn't break the rules and use more colorful language.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

That last one in full context is not a victim card.

Using the gender card as sarcasm isn't playing the victim.

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It still lines up with her using her gender as an excuse for why people disagree with her, albeit indirectly. Also an ad hominem in a sense, but still incredibly dishonest.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

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I have pointed out my gender on these forums multiple times and in plenty of other online and gaming situations.

I've never been accused of this sort of victim mentality because I don't make the issue about being a woman I make it about the topic at hand with an annotation of "btw girl here".

You might be better received on your points about blm if you weren't taking up such an Sarkeesian-esque approach to interaction with your fellow forum-goers & gamers. Not saying that you want it but when you act like this and like people are being sexist towards you when they aren't people don't consider your other points because they already see you being wrong about this supposed sexism and judge your intellect based on that.

Hope it helps. Good luck on BLM \o/

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

snip

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Oh but Moro, the victim mentality is strong here. I am apparently a hypocrite myself for pointing some things out and even offering suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

So first of all, where did I say "this is the only way to fix it"? Second, you yourself just said that people who have extensive background in the field...but the thing is not everyone does. Roger Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert being one of the earliest examples I can think of, who became film critics at first because they were told to be. Other popular reviewers just doing it without an extensive background in reviewing games, who now run popular channels on youtube. So if there is a fallacy of logic here, it's on you.

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First off, how DARE YOU for failing so miserably at providing an example, that you used the same person TWICE (may Siskel and Ebert rest in peace). Second off, while I'm not sure that Siskel had experience in film or criticism (beyond a review for the movie Rascal) before Siskel and Ebert first teamed up on television in 1975, Ebert at least gained an understanding of film and critque through Mad Magazine.

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I learned to be a movie critic by reading Mad magazine … Mad's parodies made me aware of the machine inside the skin—of the way a movie might look original on the outside, while inside it was just recycling the same old dumb formulas. I did not read the magazine, I plundered it for clues to the universe. Pauline Kael lost it at the movies; I lost it at Mad magazine

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Meanwhile, most game reviewers tend to have both experience with the games they play and have experience gaming in general. Again, do I have to point out the Polygon Doom video, how badly they played and how they got utterly lambasted, or do I have to point out the Cuphead controversy?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Well for one in terms of the game it's mounted on legs, second then that negates that BLM should be able to cast on the move with the much vaunted swift and triple-cast abilities, third setting up your gun on in a turret fashion on the field grats better accuracy and cover but doesn't keep you from booking out should the need arrive (such as the arrival of a much bigger gun like a tank). Plus the whole point of putting a turret on a mobile base is so that it HAS the mobility to move out of harms way...again, just like what I am saying the BLM should be able to do. So your logic falls flat, again.

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The concept of a turret for the sake of gameplay has nothing to do with the concept of a turret in real life. Do you not understand metaphors or something?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

So first of all, where did I say "this is the only way to fix it"? Second, you yourself just said that people who have extensive background in the field...but the thing is not everyone does. Roger and Ebert being one of the earliest examples I can think of, who became film critics at first because they were told to be.

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Roger AND Ebert? "CRITICS" "THEY" LOL......it's ROGER EBERT. ONE PERSON. Great argument from a stance of knowledge.........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ebert

Read his bio, I'd say he had quite an extensive grasp on entertainment, writing proficiency, and storytelling. You shot yourself in the foot with this one.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Other popular reviewers just doing it without an extensive background in reviewing games, who now run popular channels on youtube. So if there is a fallacy of logic here, it's on you.

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This is a joke right? Sighting Youtube as the basis for any argument is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Well for one in terms of the game it's mounted on legs, second then that negates that BLM should be able to cast on the move with the much vaunted swift and triple-cast abilities, third setting up your gun on in a turret fashion on the field grats better accuracy and cover but doesn't keep you from booking out should the need arrive (such as the arrival of a much bigger gun like a tank). Plus the whole point of putting a turret on a mobile base is so that it HAS the mobility to move out of harms way...again, just like what I am saying the BLM should be able to do. So your logic falls flat, again.

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Mounted on legs? REALLY?!?!?!

"Setting up your gun in a turret fashion" - Dropping the tripod stabilizers on a machine gun is NOWHERE near this analogy. The statement is just blind.

BTW -> Putting a turret on a mobile base is so that you can move your firepower INTO harms way and do the most damage. That's the reason turrets are most commonly found on ARMORED vehicles. Whose point is falling flat?

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Originally Posted by Malkria

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues?

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Yes. For blm to not top the damage, it means you do not know the job. How can you judge what you do not know properly? Nobody would take that seriously.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

Despite the fact that A) pasrsers are against the game's ToS,

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False, you just can't kick bad players for being bad dps. Even devs parse. This stuff is all pretty common knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

B) that isn't true.

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True, if they are actually performing properly. 99% of the time with zero feed back however, they are not. unless they have friends who assist them with data. Unless you meant the ability to judge how a job you don't know works, in which case, see point one.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Roger AND Ebert? "CRITICS" "THEY" LOL......it's ROGER EBERT. ONE PERSON. Great argument from a stance of knowledge.........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ebert

Read his bio, I'd say he had quite an extensive grasp on entertainment, writing proficiency, and storytelling. You shot yourself in the foot with this one..

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You are right, I meant Siskel and Ebert. Either way, they were MOVIE critics...but they didn't make movies. But with their backgrounds even not being directly related to making movies, they still were able to make thoughtful critical analysis of aspects of movies. By your logic they shouldn't know what they were talking about.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

This is a joke right? Sighting Youtube as the basis for any argument is laughable.

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Really? Because the fact that these reviewers are able to make money of said review to the point it is their job shows that their opinion is valued by enough people for that to be true. Furthermore supporting my statement that you don't have to make games to be able to critique them, because while you could argue that it is partly showmanship and have a valid point. The fact is that if they didn't have good points and understand the games they were reviewing they wouldn't be able to keep a viewer base. So again, by your logic these people would have needed to work in the game development industry for years, where most of them were gamers who decided to start reviewing games.

So laugh all you want, but it still is a valid platform for reviews and the reviewers are legit at what they do.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Mounted on legs? REALLY?!?!?!

"Setting up your gun in a turret fashion" - Dropping the tripod stabilizers on a machine gun is NOWHERE near this analogy. The statement is just blind.

BTW -> Putting a turret on a mobile base is so that you can move your firepower INTO harms way and do the most damage. That's the reason turrets are most commonly found on ARMORED vehicles. Whose point is falling flat?

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So setting up your gun in a braced manner to better track and put down targets is in no way or shape to how a turret functions? Then the BLM isn't a turret either, A) a BLM can move at all under their own power, B) the job isn't "a small tower on top of a larger tower or at the corner of a building or wall, typically of a castle;" or "a low, flat armored gun emplacement, typically one that revolves, in a ship, aircraft, fort, or tank." So since you brought in that definition...that one is on you.

In fact I don't even understand your intent at this point. I mean I understand that the job is supposed to play in a 'turret style', but it still isn't an actual turret. So I honestly have no clue what your argument in this section is trying to do or show.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Yes. For blm to not top the damage, it means you do not know the job. How can you judge what you do not know properly? Nobody would take that seriously.

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For "BLM to not top the damage"...not exactly sure what you are saying here. If I am not topping the damage as a BLM? If the job in general is not top damage?

Either way, again you don't need to top the parser to understand how the job works, or at minimum how it is being played. The intent is for the job to be trying to push out as much damage without moving as much as possible to maximize the timer for umbral hearts and astral fire phases of damage, correct? Meanwhile using swift and triple cast along with the other instant procs to move as necessary around mechanics, at least the ones you can't just eat the damage over. So if I understand all that...why do I need to make top parser, which again is against the ToS to use, to be able to form an opinion? You don't always need to master something to know that something just isn't being done as well as it could be.

Furthermore your stated attitude is exactly why the devs don't like parsers. I would report you myself but frankly I doubt the moderators have the ability to ban your game from the forum, and even if you say you use them there isn't any actual proof of it. So I guess we will just have to settle with you being called a jerk, you jerk.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

If the job [BLM] in general is not top damage?

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You keep saying this. It's demonstrably not true.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

You keep saying this. It's demonstrably not true.

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I didn't SAY that I was trying to derive meaning from his very bad grammar. You REALLY are stretching to 'win' at the internet if you take a question as a statement of fact. o.O

You have made statements that suggest BLM isn't the best in damage. The person you were correcting at first was working off of that, so it's not exactly taking you out of context.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

You have made statements that suggest BLM isn't the best in damage. The person you were correcting at first was working off of that, so it's not exactly taking you out of context.

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Yes I did...days ago, which since then I have stopped. Next.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

For "BLM to not top the damage"...not exactly sure what you are saying here. If I am not topping the damage as a BLM? If the job in general is not top damage?

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He means if the player playing BLM is of equivalent gear to his party members, if they are doing less than the other party members, then they are not doing well.

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Either way, again you don't need to top the parser to understand how the job works, or at minimum how it is being played.

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Don't need a medical degree to think the current methods of heart transplant surgery are flawed either. I can also just run over to the podiatrist any time I need a crown in my teeth or a cavity filling too.

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The intent is for the job to be trying to push out as much damage without moving as much as possible to maximize the timer for umbral hearts and astral fire phases of damage, correct?

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Uhm...kind of? The intent of the job is to maximize fire IV casts while maintaining enochian, with the knowledge fire IV and blizzard IV themselves to not refresh Astral Fire or Umbral Ice.

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Meanwhile using swift and triple cast along with the other instant procs to move as necessary around mechanics, at least the ones you can't just eat the damage over. So if I understand all that...why do I need to make top parser, which again is against the ToS to use, to be able to form an opinion? You don't always need to master something to know that something just isn't being done as well as it could be.

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So you understand all that, great. Then understand that people like playing like that, and are good at playing like that, and if you think that the gameplay style is so counterintuitive as to be stressful and not fun to play, the job probably just isn't for you.

This thread, my goodness.

BLM is fine.

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Originally Posted by Malkria

.

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Wow, so many separate quotes from one person. Chopping up their post and responding separately. You must be trying to cry for their attention.

;)

Just gonna leave this here...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4670653

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Wow, so many separate quotes from one person. Chopping up their post and responding separately. You must be trying to cry for their attention.

;)

Just gonna leave this here...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4670653

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Lol nice find.

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Originally Posted by P_Wing

Lol nice find.

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It wasn't a find, per se, since people were conversing with each other in both threads simultaneously yesterday, so that particular ad hominem post du jour (de l'heure, really) of theirs was still fresh to mind. Basically, after failing to get people on board with their misinformed position in this thread, they went over to that RDM thread to try their luck with their BLM is the worst caster shtick. You can imagine how well that went over with RDM mains. Both the thread hopping and the oddball opinion got called out, and after failing to convince people that their opinion was the majority they essentially 'took their ball home', which meant coming back to this thread.

It's definitely amusing though. :)