Just say no

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

I'll download the app and pay for the premium plan.

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Because who cares about content that's being stripped away from players as long as YOU can pay for it right?

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

Because who cares about content that's being stripped away from players as long as YOU can pay for it right?

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Sorry what content is being stripped away?

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Sorry what content is being stripped away?

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You don't think SE can afford all those mogstation items to be in the game from just our monthly sub alone? You don't think SE can afford making an app that's totally free (or heaven forbid, pay only once) that players get everything from?

Supporting this business model means it will continue. If everyone saw the mogstation for what it was, and not as many players purchased things from it, do you think SE would add more and more stuff to it like they do now?

Look at how much content we're getting from our patches nowadays. Pretty sure we're getting less, not more. But how many more ways are there for us to pay SE additional money on top of our sub?

We are not getting less

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Sorry what content is being stripped away?

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Any and all content that would have been developed by a company more focused on maintaining a strong subscription business rather than creating additional revenue streams with half-assed gimmicks. Any cash cow like this is something a company will seek to monetize in some fashion. In the old days, before WoW opened Pandora's Box, subscription-based games were monetized by investing in the content, creating the most compelling experience possible so as to retain a large number of subscribers on a consistent, long-term basis.

Now, SE has abandoned that market path, because they've realized there's a significant number of people with more disposable income than sense who are willing to pay for exclusive Glamours, mounts, extra Retainers, emotes bundled with figurines, etc. It's cheaper and easier to develop this content than to actually build out the core game, and obviously in SE's eyes, the benefits from exploiting consumers in this fashion are worth pursuing. This costs players the content that would have been developed under the traditional monetization model, a model that results in a far better game than the current one does. Effectively, we're suffering because SE as a company is willing to exploit consumers, and there are plenty of consumers who are only too happy to be exploited.

I"m not going to defend the app. But the cash shop items would not have been made if the cash shop didn't exist. that's a fact as the cash shop devs are not the same devs who make our content. So saying the cash shop is killing our content I feel is false.

I understand and agree less dev time is put to the game if they going to maintain mogstation and the app on same dev team rather than hiring more people but i believe they have dedicated devs for this already.

However nothing to my knowledge been stripped away.

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Originally Posted by ko_

I"m not going to defend the app. But the cash shop items would not have been made if the cash shop didn't exist. that's a fact as the cash shop devs are not the same devs who make our content. So saying the cash shop is killing our content I feel is false.

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No, they would have been in game items /rewards :/

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Originally Posted by Aivi_lo

No, they would have been in game items /rewards :/

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Technically speaking some of the emotes are ripped from in-game animations of our characters

Upon closer reiview, I don't think I'm going to use the app. I don't play the game enough for it.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Yes, this is another thread - and hopefully one of many.
I encourage you to post your own one.

What SE is doing with this new patch is a cynical and divisive move, aggressive and thoughtless. The one thing that we all have in common is we love Final Fantasy and are happy to subscribe to FFXIV because we enjoy this game and in turn are happy to pay SE for this product.

This game has been on the edge of exploitation for a long time - so close to the nonsense they've been pulling (or at least trying to) with the other arms of the company but until now it hasn't been as blatant.


This is a bad day for this game, for us and our community.

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Dude. Biggest overreaction ever.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

We are not getting less

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We got stuff like PotD and Diadem on top of more dungeons in HW. In SB we got no new race, less jobs, lost even more dungeons, got Ultimate which is great for raiders but is mostly a fight with lots of re-used assets and finally got Eureka. Again we got all of this already in HW with more dungeons. We also lost stuff like our veteran rewards. (And barely got much for it.)

At the same time they started to sell more merchandise, have more campaigns with other companies, increases the cash shop and the prices there constantly, sell jump potions, make a lot of items single character only and more. Also SB seems to have been sold more than HW. Yet we get less content. If they truly use the cash shop to make the game better why dont we see that? We always got more features so those are not new. Shouldnt we have at least the same if not more dungeons on top of having more completely new content?

(And even stuff like the Hildy outfit are landing in the cash shop..which could have been a quest reward)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We got stuff like PotD and Diadem on top of more dungeons in HW. In SB we got no new race, less jobs, lost even more dungeons, got Ultimate which is great for raiders but is mostly a fight with lots of re-used assets and finally got Eureka. Again we got all of this already in HW with more dungeons. We also lost stuff like our veteran rewards. (And barely got much for it.)

At the same time they started to sell more merchandise, have more campaigns with other companies, increases the cash shop and the prices there constantly, sell jump potions, make a lot of items single character only and more. Also SB seems to have been sold more than HW. Yet we get less content. If they truly use the cash shop to make the game better why dont we see that? We always got more features so those are not new. Shouldnt we have at least the same if not more dungeons on top of having more completely new content?

(And even stuff like the Hildy outfit are landing in the cash shop..which could have been a quest reward)

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We ARE getting less new things, but we are not getting less in quantity.
Frankly even the merchandise in the shop is not correlated to a less quantity of rewards in-game, so no the quantity is not getting less. (w/e me or you feel about them is irrilevant, frankly some are just ripped animations which are more infuriating for me than something created for the sole reasons to be sold in the shop)

Also there has been an increase activity UI side which in a way is much more useful for the game lifespan than 1 stupid, useless, nosense dungeon that frankly EVERYONE loathed till they said they won't be doing 2 dungeons in odd patches anymore.
Not to mention that SB brought the biggest housing update since inception, with some fixes to the system, which are long needed and we got nothing for HW or ARR for that matter.

Now you might have a case if they didn't add a new potd or as some like to call it diadem 3.0, but imho no we are not getting wod 6.1 quality content if you ask me (or 5.3 Mop).

And let's be honest 4.3 is shaping up to be a packed patch, probably more than 3.3 and 2.3 despite their best effort to sour it with the premium garbage

Now I know less new things it's hard to be impressed, but in a buisness where everyone is cutting or stopping developing to focus on shady practices I'm more concerned on quantity over quality at this point. Especially since I know that quality takes time (As in real time, not demagogy like ppl saying that FFXV was in dev for 10 years or that Eureka was in devs for 17 months, because that's just basic populism with no evidence nor proof, well cept for XV anyone sane knows that until 3y before release the game was just a drug trip of Nomura and nothing more, which actually makes me shiver about KH3 and FF7R)

Some of the SE conspiracies people are coming up with are mindblowing XD.
Seriously people need to get a grip.This app isnt going to affect most of the player base.Controlled markets already exist on every server and have done for a long time like any mmo.They havent used real life money to achieve this and they certainly arent going to pay real life money to accumulate further in game wealth.
Most people who need top end gear for raids are already rolling in gil from selling clears to noobs.They dont need an app to get this wealth.

In a way i welcome the app.If people want to use the paid service and devalue items on the market through needless undercutting its fine by me because the reality is the main people this is going to be affecting is the players who keep buying items at any low prices to try and force the price of items up.
And i can guarantee also some of those individuals are the ones making the biggest fuss about the app.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

In a way i welcome the app.If people want to use the paid service and devalue items on the market through needless undercutting its fine by me because the reality is the main people this is going to be affecting is the players who keep buying items at any low prices to try and force the price of items up.
And i can guarantee also some of those individuals are the ones making the biggest fuss about the app.

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They are planning on adding OTHER SERVICES to use with the "mogcoins" as well. So its not going to stay at the market board. Plus think about it, it my not be pay2win for the raiders yet, but it is already introducing pay 2 win into the game, at the market board. in a way, the ability to get ilvls buy bribing your way to it is already introduced via using your enhanced market privileves to buy the fancy stuff. Its not that much further from ixx3 or ixx8 gear...

Plus it introduces a way to put yet more stuff locked behind a paywall, or even the appwall of kupo nuts.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

They are planning on adding OTHER SERVICES to use with the "mogcoins" as well. So its not going to stay at the market board. Plus think about it, it my not be pay2win for the raiders yet, but it is already introducing pay 2 win into the game, at the market board. in a way, the ability to get ilvls buy bribing your way to it is already introduced via using your enhanced market privileves to buy the fancy stuff. Its not that much further from ixx3 or ixx8 gear...

Plus it introduces a way to put yet more stuff locked behind a paywall, or even the appwall of kupo nuts.

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Or... it could be "pay 1 kupo nut to have the moogle feed your chocobo" or "pay one kupo nut to have the moogle change the color of your chocobo".
The sky isn't falling.... yet.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Or... it could be "pay 1 kupo nut to have the moogle feed your chocobo" or "pay one kupo nut to have the moogle change the color of your chocobo".
The sky isn't falling.... yet.

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I was going to say something like, what if they made chobobo coloring convoluted on purpose to monetize off shortcuts off it. Then I was like what if the glam dresser was made for the same reasons? we can't put a glam log in the game because of server limitations, but you can buy it for the cheap price of 9.99 a month, want no clipping for character ? 2.99 a month. How about premium housing? 5.99 a month, but don't forget auto demo!

Now selling a 125 EUR moogle statue that has buttslider ingame option

Want more hairstyles? 5.99 each, want to change your eye color without fantasia? 2.99. Want extra hudd options like always display your dots on monsters? 3.99 a month.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I was going to say something like, what if they made chobobo coloring convoluted on purpose to monetize off shortcuts off it. Then I was like what if the glam dresser was made for the same reasons? we can't put a glam log in the game because of server limitations, but you can buy it for the cheap price of 9.99 a month, want no clipping for character ? 2.99 a month. How about premium housing? 5.99 a month, but don't forget auto demo!

Now selling a 125 EUR moogle statue that has buttslider ingame option

Want more hairstyles? 5.99 each, want to change your eye color without fantasia? 2.99. Want extra hudd options like always display your dots on monsters? 3.99 a month.

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Look I'm as against microtransactions as the next guy (probably more), but you're overreacting. Plain and simple. Complain about shady practices after they get announced, not before.

His point is that shady practices have already happened. Them prioritizing releasing an app over fixing problems that currently exist in game is shady and even if you like the app and don't think it's pay to win, you have to see how this looks.

Additionally, we've always been told that the changes we want are too hard on the server. Yet here we are able to pay for these changes that were supposedly too hard on the server. This is shady and I feel like I'm being lied to in order for them to take more money from my wallet.

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Originally Posted by RedHerb

His point is that shady practices have already happened. Them prioritizing releasing an app over fixing problems that currently exist in game is shady and even if you like the app and don't think it's pay to win, you have to see how this looks.

Additionally, we've always been told that the changes we want are too hard on the server. Yet here we are able to pay for these changes that were supposedly too hard on the server. This is shady and I feel like I'm being lied to in order for them to take more money from my wallet.

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I submit this in the spirit of broadening perception, not defense of what COULD be lying for profit.
What they've said is they cannot expand our inventory because of server limitations. This means they cannot give the entire playerbase more inventory because the servers or bandwidth cannot handle it. All accounts. What they're offering is : to those willing to pay a fee they'll unlock further inventory slots. This isn't ideal, but if it's only a few people doing it (and with most inventory expansion for money it's always only been a few) I'm sure the servers can handle it, if it becomes more than they can handle then they have the money to upgrade since it would be a large influx of income.

All of that is speculation, as is the perception that they lied about limitations to sell inventory space. Two simple ways to look at what's probably a very complex issue.

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Originally Posted by RedHerb

His point is that shady practices have already happened. Them prioritizing releasing an app over fixing problems that currently exist in game is shady and even if you like the app and don't think it's pay to win, you have to see how this looks.

Additionally, we've always been told that the changes we want are too hard on the server. Yet here we are able to pay for these changes that were supposedly too hard on the server. This is shady and I feel like I'm being lied to in order for them to take more money from my wallet.

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Yes, its mocking what has happened while what might happen in the future. Hyperbole sure but at the same time it is more of serving a warning to be more mindful in the future and companies like this are capable of "tin foil hat" theories such as:

https://youtu.be/eZJ7D9BzBu0

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I submit this in the spirit of broadening perception, not defense of what COULD be lying for profit.
What they've said is they cannot expand our inventory because of server limitations. This means they cannot give the entire playerbase more inventory because the servers or bandwidth cannot handle it. All accounts. What they're offering is : to those willing to pay a fee they'll unlock further inventory slots. This isn't ideal, but if it's only a few people doing it (and with most inventory expansion for money it's always only been a few) I'm sure the servers can handle it, if it becomes more than they can handle then they have the money to upgrade since it would be a large influx of income.

All of that is speculation, as is the perception that they lied about limitations to sell inventory space. Two simple ways to look at what's probably a very complex issue.

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Problem with this theory is right in the video I linked. This is a VERY bad time to be pulling something like this, as people are on edge on other situations. Plus you cant tell me a 125 EUR statue gating an emote has anything to do with server stress. Blocking a basic UI feature behind a paywall is no different then this to me :
https://youtu.be/bUX4fGCd_dk

At the end of the day, I will forever be in disagreement in charging us more money because of rushing 2.0 out. Ill gladly start a movement for everyone donate 100 EUR to SE to fund revamping core coding of this game and let us play a stable game for once my GOD! (stable as in criticism of the slow response the servers have to like everything in this game, moogle mail, gm helpdesk letters, people's movements updating on your side properly, input lag, slow retainer menus, why do i need to wait for them to walk to the bell each time? so PTW app can be paid to get around it? etc)

AH! FOUND IT! lets streamline moogle mail though the app for another 5 dollars a month!

How about they take the sub we're already giving them and fix the servers with that?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I submit this in the spirit of broadening perception, not defense of what COULD be lying for profit.
What they've said is they cannot expand our inventory because of server limitations. This means they cannot give the entire playerbase more inventory because the servers or bandwidth cannot handle it. All accounts. What they're offering is : to those willing to pay a fee they'll unlock further inventory slots. This isn't ideal, but if it's only a few people doing it (and with most inventory expansion for money it's always only been a few) I'm sure the servers can handle it, if it becomes more than they can handle then they have the money to upgrade since it would be a large influx of income.

All of that is speculation, as is the perception that they lied about limitations to sell inventory space. Two simple ways to look at what's probably a very complex issue.

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Lets take your logic to an extreme degree: (please note, I understand your point 100%, just bear with me.)

Let's say 100% of the playerbase pays for the premium subscription. Doesn't that immediately mean that the infrastructure to provide these inventory slots already exist? Would that not prove that they outright lied to their customers about what was possible? There is currently no limit on how many players can pay for the premium, this means they can provide for no limit of players obtaining these inventory slots. Do you suspect Square Enix would simply allow their game to crash because too many players purchased from them? Just something to think about while people debate this back and forth.

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Originally Posted by RedHerb

How about they take the sub we're already giving them and fix the servers with that?

Lets take your logic to an extreme degree: (please note, I understand your point 100%, just bear with me.)
Let's say 100% of the playerbase pays for the premium subscription. Doesn't that immediately mean that the infrastructure to provide these inventory slots already exist? Would that not prove that they outright lied to their customers about what was possible? There is currently no limit on how many players can pay for the premium, this means they can provide for no limit of players obtaining these inventory slots. Do you suspect Square Enix would simply allow their game to crash because too many players purchased from them? Just something to think about while people debate this back and forth.

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Network planning is an interesting back and forth of planning for the worst, setting up for projected and scaling back for falling short. I state this as someone who plans, maintains and decommissions networking equipment and structures. While in your situation it would most assuredly show that they had the network infrastructure to support the upgrade from the getgo, it still wouldn't necessarily mean they were being deceitful about their assessment. It may be right at the limit, it may put lifetime reducing stress on the system they did not plan for or be one of many other reasons NOT to add load to the network.

I understand what you're saying but I don't feel it can be so very cut and dry as "well you could've so you should've".

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Plus it introduces a way to put yet more stuff locked behind a paywall, or even the appwall of kupo nuts.

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It doesnt introduce anything that doesnt exist already.The people who pay to win with gil already have that gil kept to one side.They've done it from hording houses and selling them off for profit or buy buying low and selling high on market or selling clears to noobs to pay for raid gear..Literally the only thing that will change is there will be more undercutting so it will devalue the worth of items.
Is that a bad thing? No.
The only pay2win model that exists currently or in the future is the story skip and level skip.I think the story skip is fine but the level skip well that shouldnt have been allowed.If people were arguing over the level skip id be behind you.But im not gonna support the market board fear mongering.
Also stating it gives them a way to put a pay wall in.They can do that at any time anyway and it doesnt require an app.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

We ARE getting less new things, but we are not getting less in quantity.

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That is imo completely subjective. I dont find stuff like Eureka high quality content especially with all the re-used monsters and weapon.

Small changes to the UI should also be something that we get on top of that and not in beta versions like the glamour commode.

They also only got us that housing update because people raged that much that it got them negative press.

In the end they sold more expansions, they have an increase in sub at least at the start, they sell more stuff in the cash shop and more..So I wont accept less content since they got more money from us.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

That is imo completely subjective. I dont find stuff like Eureka high quality content especially with all the re-used monsters and weapon.

Small changes to the UI should also be something that we get on top of that and not in beta versions like the glamour commode.

They also only got us that housing update because people raged that much that it got them negative press.

In the end they sold more expansions, they have an increase in sub at least at the start, they sell more stuff in the cash shop and more..So I wont accept less content since they got more money from us.

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Quality yes is subjective but quantity isn't.
When talking about quantity you need to be objective and not use just what you like.

edit: When talking about something that can be objectively proven it's better to not have personal feelings clouding the judgemnt, if I were to say that we got less content because I don't consider PVP additions as content since they don't strike my fancy, pvpers might come to be and correctly say that I'm talking nonsense.
MMOs target massive audience, which means that you are more than likely to not enjoy a part of them, which is why ultimate was in the end a good addition for the game especially for how game changing it actually was.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Quality yes is subjective but quantity isn't.
When talking about quantity you need to be objective and not use just what you like.

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Sorry about the quality and quantity stuff. x_x Misread it and thought that you meant that we got less but those in more quality.

My problem is that I dont find it good that we lose more dungeons (we already lost one in HW) to get new content. For me with all the things that they can use to earn money we should have had more content on top of all the basics content still being the same amount. For example we got PotD and Diadem in HW and still had more dungeon than SB. We also got PVP maps in HW without losing dungeons for that too. Its just sad that we have to give up basic content if we want different new stuff.

Tbf the dungeons we lost were mostly reused assets so they didn't get much more time to work on new features (though I suspect that if they kept doing 2 hard mode/patch they would've have to cut them because they would be out of dungeons out of which make hard modes by now)

I think that the 3.5 months /patch is a bottleneck tbh in regards to implementations of new features, which in turn is why some are implemented in an not so ready state. Personally I feel that there are 2 ways they should consider
1) is keeping the patch structure to the formula BUT frontloading all new features during the expansion releae
Or
2) stagger patch releases more to have time to finish new features

edit: BTW sometimes it's good to go an extra mile when analyzing things.
To give you an example, everyone hates Jar Jar Binks, but without the tech created for him we wouldn't have the motion capture of today
While ppl opinion of eureka might wary, the technology used in it for cross server functionality will be useful in the long game for the game