"Toxic"? or Just advice you don't want to hear?

The tip maybe is something the player is already aware of and that's the zetaest time he is already working to get better.

For example, hit positionals. Hit positionals aren't something you can do out of blue. You actually need to adjust your way of playing the game, adjust your muscle memory and develop some better sense of positioning to be able to position your character well to do maximum damage. And that is easier said than done. Because to actually do that, you have to invest time (I'm speaking about entire days or even months), effort (because those things requires effort) and patience (since that person will fail to do that. A LOT).

And let's say that monk enters on a duty where he fails at hit positioning or just plays the way he is used to, to not risk dying or dropping too much his DPS while trying to hit positionals. That monk knows that DPS without positionals are his best ATM. And then some player notice that and gives him a tip, saying that he should hit positionals. No futher explanation about an easier way to do that, just "you should hit positionals". Generic, like that. AND that player who gave the tip just expect that the tipped player would magically begins to hit positionals right away just because he gave the tip.

How that tip is not annoying?

Maybe is would be better if the community is more open for people asking. Maybe an actually helpful NN - that rather than yet another hunt LS is an actually a place where sprouts can ask freely and receive actual, contextualizated tips - would be better than give and receive random generic tips while the duty is happening.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

[Snip - example: positionals]
How that tip is not annoying?

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Honestly, if someone is hearing that tip for the zetaest time and still isnt able to execute positionals, they might want to consider playing a class that doesnt require them. That sounds harsh, but depending on the character level, I can only imagine two scenarios here:
1) A new-ish player (below 50, I'd say - probably more below 35, but with all the exp-buffs and what not lets go with 50) who actually doesnt know about positionals. Despite tooltips making them quite clear. This person would benefit from someone pointing them out to them.
2) A player willfully ignoring positionals. It doesnt take "month" to master positionals - it might take some time to master a class, yes. But performing positionals at a basic level? Yeah, no. We're not talking about htting 100% of them right now. We're talking about trying to hit them at all. How is it not annoying to see a person not even trying? You cant talk about "Oh, this needs time to learn!" and then dont expect people to actually practise that, aka: trying their best to perform such positionals in dungeons. They're a basic aspect of some melee-classes and just how you expect tanks to tank, healers to heal and a BLM to alternate between fire and ice, you should expect everyone to perform the basics of their job. Some jobs require more of you than others, which is good since it gives people who are willing to invest more time and effort a chance to do so. But it also means that if you cant do that, you probably should pick a job that caters more to your needs then. And if you say now "But what if that person really wants to play monk because their grandfather was a monk?" then I can only say: "I hope they're dedicated enough then to learn that class - or pick an easier one if its to difficult for them"

Seriously, I dont understand how people are okay with players unable to perform basics of their job. I dont get this whole cuddling, "making everyone feel supi-dupi about themself"-thing. Obviously, no one should be rude... but isnt it kinda rude already to enter a duty when you're not actually up to perform? I get the whole "they might be a slow learner"-thing, but can we please, please stop using that as an excuse after a certain point? If someone is level 60 and cant do positionals, I dont know what to tell them besides "There is this circle under every mob, the arrow points at the front. The open part is the back. The stuff between are the sides. Now place yourself according to the skill. If you cant do that: Try one of the many classes that doesnt require positionals."

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And do you really likes to help? Or do you you only want your prize ASAP?

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Or maybe I dont want to waste the time of the other people in that duty? Because sitting down with someone, explaining stuff in length means: we're standing still. Might be helpful for the person in need of advice. Is okay for me. Probably extremly annoying for the 2 (or 6) other people around. Personally, I most often offer to stay after the run and answer any questions anyone might have. I dont recall a single duty where someone has taken me up on that offer, despite me being quite polite and friendly.

Another thing, I am favorable of asking first if that people wants a tip.

But there is something I want to ask those who're giving a tip during a duty: If that requires to do so, do you would to sit down with that person to actually teach? Because just spit a tip is easy. Even I can do that. "When playing as WHM, if your Assize is not on cooldown, you are playing it wrong". See? I just gave a tip.

But sit down and teach that person is harder because you will have to actually swallow the pride and listen. I get you may be the writer the reference guide, and such. Or you're even some Square-Enix programmer and you wrote the script for that mechanic. But that person might need more help than a spit tip would have to offer. Maybe saying just what and why is not enough. Maybe that person needs to hear how. Maybe that person needs to hear when. Maybe that person don't need to hear that it needs to do this or that, just needs confidence or more training until get the hang of it. And the only sure way to know how to actually help is listening.

And do you really likes to help? Or do you you only want your prize ASAP?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...

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Agreed, but there are more scenarios:

3) That person don't have much time to play and thus his/her learning process takes more time;
4) That person don't have much experience with that role/class and got the char somewhat ready and is yet getting used to it. Comes to mind jump potion users, lvl 50 SAM/RDM, lvl 30 DRK/AST/MCH or someone that is playing with someone else's account;
5) That person is a slow learner.

It's your fault? Of course not, you just were unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Or maybe I dont want to waste the time of the other people in that duty? Because sitting down with someone, explaining stuff in length means: we're standing still. Might be helpful for the person in need of advice. Is okay for me. Probably extremly annoying for the 2 (or 6) other people around. Personally, I most often offer to stay after the run and answer any questions anyone might have. I dont recall a single duty where someone has taken me up on that offer, despite me being quite polite and friendly.

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Depending on the failure, the other 2 or 6 or even 22 people out there would get more time wasted if you don't explain in enough details because that would means more wipes. I can't say for everyone or every situation.

But we can agree that a tip or any way to help that player will only work if that player wants to be helped. Otherwise, literally it can't be helped. And how do you know if that person wants help? Communication. Just ask privately "Do you need help?" Do you have any doubt about this boss?"

And I would bet that most people on Duty Finder would prefer to spend 5 more minutes teaching some newbie and get the clear than get a couple more wipes, disband the party and spend another 30+ minutes on the queue to do again the same duty (if DPS).

I agree with Vidu on that front.

As example; Black Mage is one of my fav jobs in FF canon, but I'm a garbage FFXIV BLM as I struggle under all the timers the job needs to maintain. While not a difficult mechanic to understand, and working to cap the job, Enochian upkeep just escapes me. I kept hoping I'd have a lightbulb moment and it would fall into place, but no. Hours and days and research and practice and I still lose Enochian every minute or so, and have to fall back on the old level 50 rotation.

That said, I DO understand SMN's mechanics, and can pull off the monstrously long rotation pretty naturally. If I can DPS way, way more as a SMN without tripping over myself every minute, then I shouldn't I be playing SMN?

But, saying THAT, I've spent a ton of time on SMN and SCH, so I have many more hours on the pet jobs than on BLM.

So, it's different person to person, but if you just aren't getting it, why lock yourself into a job that remains a struggle? There is a difference between working hard at mastering a job and forcing yourself to play one where a basic, core mechanic is so difficult you have to ignore it to play at all half the time, like the Monk example, or like me and BLM. There are too many jobs to do that to yourself, I think.

Despite all the threads on this subject, I have to say I've never actually seen anyone in a DF group give advice since launch. For that matter I can't even recall people calling a person out for poor play outside of 24man raids....

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Despite all the threads on this subject, I have to say I've never actually seen anyone in a DF group give advice since launch. For that matter I can't even recall people calling a person out for poor play outside of 24man raids....

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I used to until I learned that most people don't listen or just outright get defensive over it. Group content became a lot less stressful when I put my party list somewhere I can't see it. Now I can't see casters spamming the same spell. And since I'm doing DRG, my focus is moreso on my target than whatever that SMN is casting. :D

Although I can't not see those dotons.

I often get a statement right at the beginning of a dungeon (if I'm on my whm) "You aren't one of those 'Holy' types are you?" It's confusing because Holy is very useful yet I get a lot of tanks who find it annoying so I listen to what they say and try to suit their needs. I do encourage advice if the run seems to be taking longer than normal and I rarely feel like I get toxic advice. Now and then I get one of -those- players who lay the blame for everything at everyone else's feet.

Calling someone out is not advice. Calling someone out is criticism. You might try to phrase it in a "nice" manner, but the general thrust is that you think you know better than someone else and you feel it's your place to tell them that. And believe me, people can sense that. Some here might call it "coddling" but as someone who teaches and mentors a variety of people on a regular basis, I know there is one key item that is important. You have to keep control in their hands. Yes, you are the expert. You are generally there to pour knowledge into them. But you still have to respect them and their opinions and viewpoints. And you have to respect the times they may not want your advice and may instead either want to give it a go on their own or are having trouble understanding the basis of why something is important. In my case, I need to sit down and explain all that and sell them on why it's important to do x or y process and what may happen when we deviate. If you aren't asking if someone is even interested in what you're offering, then you aren't giving them the chance to get into the mindset where they are open and ready for your advice. You are just forcing your opinion on someone else.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But you still have to respect them and their opinions and viewpoints.

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You also have to respect the opinions and view points of the person offering the advice. This isn't a one way street. If you expect respect then you need to give it also.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

And you have to respect the times they may not want your advice and may instead either want to give it a go on their own or are having trouble understanding the basis of why something is important.

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Totally fine, but responding rudely over the advice is not respecting the person offering the advice. You simply need to tell them "Thanks, but I want to figure it out/practice on my own".

I am not saying you advocate rude responses, this is just a general statement, but in general the thread is about players responding with insults when people offer advice. I don't think that should be condoned just as much as it shouldn't be condoned to offer advice in a rude way.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If you aren't asking if someone is even interested in what you're offering, then you aren't giving them the chance to get into the mindset where they are open and ready for your advice.

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If you get immediately upset at someone for offering unsolicited advice then you aren't giving them the chance to accept your point of view. A rude response full of insults causes communication to break down immediately and both sides will no longer bother caring about what the other player's point of view is.

So the person offering the advice gave respect by giving the advice in a polite/neutral way then the respect back would be to simply tell that person what I said above. "Thanks, but I want to figure it out on my own." or "I need more time to let this sink in, thank you though."

Communication takes two people to have an exchange.

Scenario One
"I am giving help."
"Thanks, but I want to see if I can figure it out on my own."
"Okay."
Communication Success. Both sides explained their point of view politely.

Scenario Two
"I am giving help."
"-insert rude insults-"
Communication Failure. One side politely explained their point of view and the other side insulted them for it.

Scenario Three
"-insert rudely worded advice with insults-"
Communication Failure. First speaker failed to communicate their point of view in a polite way which is an immediate failure.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You are just forcing your opinion on someone else.

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It is not possible to force your opinion on anyone else. That would require some kind of supernatural power.

So no it is not forcing your opinion on someone else. If a player does not want the advice they can just politely explain their point of view. No one is going to know your point of view or opinion unless you share it. Then players can see where the conversation goes from there.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Calling someone out is not advice. Calling someone out is criticism. You might try to phrase it in a "nice" manner, but the general thrust is that you think you know better than someone else and you feel it's your place to tell them that. And believe me, people can sense that. Some here might call it "coddling" but as someone who teaches and mentors a variety of people on a regular basis, I know there is one key item that is important. You have to keep control in their hands. Yes, you are the expert

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There's nothing wrong with knowing better about something than someone else and criticism in not inherently a bad thing either.. Since we're talking about real people here behind a screen, tell me how much sense does it make for someone to get mad at someone else when they start their new job at say, a coffee shop for example, because that person basically has more knowledge about things run than they do? Especially if, as a newbie, you're royally screwing up?

Pre-sb, I had started lvling a up pld in a low lvl dgn and I was not aware about the difficulty in holding aggro with it with just one flash. Someone else in my party advised that it was okay to use flash at least two times and spread enmity combo across mobs because I didn't have aggro stance yet. I took the advice and it worked like a charm.

Its not about coddling. Sometimes, players just have let their ego go, take a step back, look objectively at what people are telling them and see if it makes sense. The more wrapped up in your ego you are, the more prickled you become at anything someone says to you.

I absolutely hate when people fling around the word "toxic". It's absolutely subjective. You say something that someone else doesn't agree with you're labeled toxic.

But that's not what I came here to say. In the few groups I've been in where someone offers advice and the person will usually respond negatively and for no reason at all. It's really quite a shame.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

There's nothing wrong with knowing better about something than someone else and criticism in not inherently a bad thing either.

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There are no such thing as omniscience. The "tipped person" knows why she isn't doing that mechanic right. The "tip giver" knows why or is just assuming things? And that "why" are the whole center of the question.

And criticism can be a good thing (if done right by both parties), but it is never a comfortable thing to receive. Of course the criticized person can feel bad, specially if s/he wasn't expecting that. And it hurts to any person to know that s/he are screwing up things (unless, of course, if that person is scewing up on purpose).

That's why people can be defensive when receiving what you guys call "tips". And mind you: everyone receives a criticism - or an after-failure tip - on different ways.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Since we're talking about real people here behind a screen, tell me how much sense does it make for someone to get mad at someone else when they start their new job at say, a coffee shop for example, because that person basically has more knowledge about things run than they do? Especially if, as a newbie, you're royally screwing up?

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If that person that supposely knows how the things works is a client of that cofee shop, the new employee hasn't any means to know if that client really knows how the things run. And do that client knows the whole picture? What gives that client so much authority over the new employee if he knows only the theory (and nothing about the circumstances why that employee failed)?

It is more complex than you think. Waaaay more complex.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Pre-sb, I had started lvling a up pld in a low lvl dgn and I was not aware about the difficulty in holding aggro with it with just one flash. Someone else in my party advised that it was okay to use flash at least two times and spread enmity combo across mobs because I didn't have aggro stance yet. I took the advice and it worked like a charm.

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That's good. But what you've done if the tip you received was wrong? For example, I received a "tip" saying that I shouldn't DPS as healer. Never. Nowadays, I DO DPS as healer (at my discretion, since healing is my priority). Those 4 seconds that Holy gives me is enough to ready the tank for some more punching session.

And what if that tip was something too generic (like "as tank, you should hold aggro", without telling how)? What if the tip is about something that person is working on? If that tip is something that person knows quite well on theory, but can't do it ATM for whatever reason? Do you take those things into account when giving a tip? If don't, you aren't giving a tip. You're calling out.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Its not about coddling. Sometimes, players just have let their ego go, take a step back, look objectively at what people are telling them and see if it makes sense. The more wrapped up in your ego you are, the more prickled you become at anything someone says to you.

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That is particularly valid for those "tip givers" that thinks that "the person who receive the tip should swallow the pride and accept gracefully the tip handed out by the great intelligence that was me and be eternally thankful". Of course I'm exagerating, but there are "tip givers" out there that thinks that way. And those "tip givers" who thinks this way have a serious ego problem.

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Originally Posted by New_Game_Plus

I absolutely hate when people fling around the word "toxic". It's absolutely subjective. You say something that someone else doesn't agree with you're labeled toxic.

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That's why human sciences is so hard.

There are no such thing as unquestionable definition of what is toxic. Not even a consensus. Therefore, I can be toxic even without doing any harm, just by discording from someone.

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Originally Posted by New_Game_Plus

But that's not what I came here to say. In the few groups I've been in where someone offers advice and the person will usually respond negatively and for no reason at all. It's really quite a shame.

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That was even a tip? Or it was some criticism disguised as tip?

People can fell that. And that's why they become on defensive.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Agreed, but there are more scenarios:

3) That person don't have much time to play and thus his/her learning process takes more time;
4) That person don't have much experience with that role/class and got the char somewhat ready and is yet getting used to it. Comes to mind jump potion users, lvl 50 SAM/RDM, lvl 30 DRK/AST/MCH or someone that is playing with someone else's account;
5) That person is a slow learner.

It's your fault? Of course not, you just were unlucky.



Depending on the failure, the other 2 or 6 or even 22 people out there would get more time wasted if you don't explain in enough details because that would means more wipes. I can't say for everyone or every situation.

But we can agree that a tip or any way to help that player will only work if that player wants to be helped. Otherwise, literally it can't be helped. And how do you know if that person wants help? Communication. Just ask privately "Do you need help?" Do you have any doubt about this boss?"

And I would bet that most people on Duty Finder would prefer to spend 5 more minutes teaching some newbie and get the clear than get a couple more wipes, disband the party and spend another 30+ minutes on the queue to do again the same duty (if DPS).

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I'm sorry, but I cant accept any of your scenarios as valid. Not considering that I'm willing to give everyone til level 50 to graps the basics of their class - I hope I made that clear earlier.
So, to conter those scenarios one by one:

3) If the person has little time to play and finds themself struggeling with the class they've picked due to that, they should probably ask themself "With how little time I have - should I really be playing a class that is this complicated?". The beauty of the game lies within us being able to pick any class we want on one character. If one doesnt suit us, another one might.
4) First, Jump Potions: If you buy one you are - as far as I'm concerend - respnosible to get yourself up to date with your class before entering any dungeon. I know thats not happening, but personally I kinda expect any Jump Potion User to sit down, read their skills, learn what their class does and then enter a dungeon. They made the choice to buy the Jump Potion, I also expect them to think "Mmh, maybe I take a look at all those shiny buttons before doing anything else" - I know, not always happening, but I'd call it a "rightful expectation" that someone who buys a Jump Potion also informs themself. (Honestly, I wish the game would force Jump Potion people into some sort of tutorial or so).
Second: Granted, those jobs get a little more leeway - I say a "little" because, considering how you unlock them, the player behind them is new to the job, not the game and should therefor, at that point, have figured out to maaaybe look at their tooltips before entering a dungeon.
Third: Playing with someone elses account is against the ToS - or well, to be precisise: Sharing Account details is. If you absolutly have to put someone who hasnt played this game yet infront of yours: Dont do that in a dungeon! Its rude and an unpleasent experience for everyone.
5) Bit the same as 3), but: If the person is a slow learner, they need to take a step back at somepoint and ask themself if thats the right class for them. Or they need to "work harder" - try a training dummy for a while, for example. At a certain point, a certain level of skill should be expected from everyone. And, seriously: I suck at melee DPS. Cant play it. I have almost all jobs at 70 (expect dragoon and monk), I tried melee dps in ARR, in HW, in SB... I will get drg and monk to 70 aswell. And I know that I have to hit positionals and how - and I can do that. But its a pain rather than a nice flow. So you know what I do? I just dont play melee DPS.

To the second part of your post:

You are aware that you cant send private messages in dungeons, right?
And giving advice only to one person in private seems also less ideal to me - I had several occassions when I (or someone else in that run) gave someone advice how to play a certain job and another person in that run was able to offer some more indept-explantions - like: I can tell you to watch out for your positionals on monk, but someone who mains monk might actually be able to tell you which combo is the best to open with and such. So they recived better advice, because it came from more people and the advice was benefitting everyone who might wanted to pick up said class in the future. Learned stuff myself that way!
That goes even more so for boss strategies - your second point there.
Why would I want to discuss them in private? I get that it can be upsetting being told "Okay, listen, you're doing everything wrong with this job", but... a boss strategy?

About the 5 minutes of teaching a newbie:
Now its just 5 minutes? Your first post sounded more like you wanted to take that newbie to the side and walk him through details in a couple hours because something basic couldnt possibly be of any help.

And here comes the depressing part now: It is very, very unlikely that you wipe because one person doesnt know what to do. In 4-man-dungeons you can get "lucky" and have the healer die to a mechanic, but thats about it. The game is so easy, that the newbie does not need to perform. So no one will want to wait for them - people get locked out of boss fights in the 24-man-raid because it does not matter wether or not that last DPS is there or not.
So no, people will not prefer to wait. Or to teach.
Both is quite sad, granted.