/Accuse @ the devs: have you set us up to fail...?

@Iscah: I regard people as bad players, if they can't even do the simplest of things in their class and refuse to accept advice. A person, who is just inexperienced, but trying to learn and improve is not a bad player in my book.
And I repeat: in no way should dungeons be savage level and require 100% perfect execution of you. But I do believe that a lvl60 dungeon should be more challenging than a lvl50 one.
The game severely lacks a difficulty curve, players get thrown into things like Rabanastre and fail miserably until they outgear the fight. If we were build up by dungeons earlier in the game to that kind of difficulty there wouldn't be so many wipes.

Btw, the sleep quest for Blm is in ARR at lvl15 I think. They made mobs beefy and hard hitting, the npc dialogue told you about sleep. You were required to sleep the mobs so you could engage one at a time or you'd get swarmed and killed. At least that's how the quest was 4 years ago when I ran it on my Blm.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Reading through all the topics on this board - not just this one, but all the other ones where the definition of a 'bad player' seems to slide from "someone who doesn't knowtheir basic skills and/or isn't trying" to "someone who clears the dungeon in 30 minutes instead of 20" and it's disheartening. (Arguably a reason for them to bring in a parse/rating/whatever, because I don't know if I'm good or bad compared to the 'average' player or what standard I should be held to, but I hate to think I'm failing and not be able to know it.)

The other thing is, how do you give the healer more to do? Honest question, because I don't know what you're picturing. What is there other than making enemies hit harder so the healer has more work?

And in the case of Scholar, it could be just that they haven't been properly balanced to function in a low-level dungeon. If they can only get away with it up to the low 30s, that's the point at which Scholar properly exists and isn't being modified for a level below their 'starting point'. Plus I imagine it depends on the skill level of the rest of the party.

Anyway the correct answer is, not needing to heal doesn't mean you can go AFK but gives you more time to support the party by DPSing, casting Esuna, etc. and keeping an eye on everyone's HP. Things can always go wrong.

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I think the issue here is you do not know how to see what we are talking about in other players. For example, do you find it fair that someone can cheat the ilevel requirement to enter a place that requests ilevel 300 average, bringing a 285 weapon when you are given a 290 weapon from the job quest at 70? Also the job quest gives an important ability to most. In the case this is referenced to, it was BLM, who NEEDS foul to be effective to clear AoE trash in a timely matter and still important on bosses to help with up time because server tics can screw you over. Can you understand why people might be upset seeing a player set foot in the last 4 man dungeon and not have your level 70 ability?

We are not talking about YOU being bad or not trying hard enough. We are talking about people that LITERALLY press 1 button throughout the run, people that use pure ST when there are 5 monsters or more in a group, among other very low bar expectations. There are some dungeons a SCH can literally AFK a whole run and not do anything, though people that care just dps. if you are fining yourself at a 25+ minute run with you trying, it is likely you are running into DPS that we are talking about. Even if ONE DPS is salvage pushing buttons like a mad woman, it still will be a 20-30 min run if the co dps is what we are talking about. In fact, a few people i know stopped solo queuing as healer for this very reason, meeting 2 bad dps is too much of a risk. For them waiting for queue as they do other things and have a 14-20 min runs is better then 20-30. That is another reason why experienced players can see it so easily. You can say this logic takes place:

"HMMM I WONDER whos fault it is, if i can get in run A, do 14 min run, then run B see a 30 minute run while the blm is only using ice spells. It is very easy to see without a parser."

For your last thing we know that but most people do not put in that effort that you meet randomly using the duty finder.

No idea where Elemental data center is, but shame I do not know anyone there. I def know people that can have a general idea how you are doing without a parser though.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

OP

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I really just think that you need to understand what your class does well, what it doesnt do well, and actually read the tooltips (the royal you, and not you directly ^^)

Short story: Had someone drop from static back in 2.0/.1. A friend got pulled in, he was a WAR, we had 2 tanks, I had DRG at 50, so I dropped from the PLD role into the DRG role.

Man, it was a different game. And i wasnt very good. but you know what helped? reading the tool tips and asking people what to do! Got our clear on turn 5 a week later.

Thats how you know if you are good player. Are you weaving your abilities the best way possible. Are you keeping your dots on the enemy. are u using damage enhancing skills at the best time in an encounter, are you not dying to AoE, are you assisting the group by clearing mechanics such as adds, levers, are you able to do the dance while still maintaining damage on the main boss, are you able to AoE in appropriate situations...

Or are u just 1,2,3 all day. If you cannot tell which people do these things and if you yourself cannot tell which profile is the better player, its on you. And this is all relevant below 70.

SCH's were likely not in the equation for pre-30 dungeons since you should technically still be an arcanist then. Furthermore, SCH and SMN has had long standing balancing issue from the get go due to the arcanist ties. Buffing SMN buffed SCH and vice versa. Spells had to be manually seperated and "upgrade" differently before any balancing could happen.
But yes, you can absolute go full green DPS in Lowbie instances as a SCH, because you are basically an arcanist without carbuncle out, but not as badly as before the SB fairy nerf, so the break is more around Halatali.


Part of the issue, too, is the vocal group of players that claw about for harder and harder content despite it blocking off the casual playerbase. But we can't think of the casuals as the one's who just spam 2 or 3 skills without a care. That's not the average player. And anyone into FFXIV enough to use the forum isn't a "casual" player either. We need to keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I mean, we've all concluded that mentioning healer/tank DPS outputs as the same as poking a hornet's nest, because it's supplementary to our main role.
Yet, SE has stated repeatedly that content is built with impression that the DPS by the damage dealing focussed jobs -alone- should ALWAYS be plenty to clear content.
So, why is it that DPS players so often aren't ready for that responsibility? That's what we're asking to have resolved.

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Perfectly put.

In regards to the BLM quest, you sleep the mobs on the way to the urn with the little lala so you don't have to fight them, or if you do end up fighting some, you don't get mobbed

In regards to what healers could do, this would be a perfect place to bring back some crowd control necessity and re-brand healers as support. The support role could buff, debuff, cleanse, pacify/sleep, and restore health. They could even take a cue from WoW and let your role change depending on what your specialization or focus is. That seems like it would give us a more robust experience than just trying to make everyone dps.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Part of the issue, too, is the vocal group of players that claw about for harder and harder content despite it blocking off the casual playerbase. But we can't think of the casuals as the one's who just spam 2 or 3 skills without a care. That's not the average player. And anyone into FFXIV enough to use the forum isn't a "casual" player either. We need to keep that in mind.

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Oh, there should absolutely be a range of content for all tiers of player. It's important to have everything from extremely casual to extremely hardcore content. The key to WoW's success is embracing both ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

This not only gives a high number of players something to do on the casual end but gives the game "street cred" on the hardcore side. The contest to be world first in content being as big as possible involves a relatively small number of players but still garners a sizable amount of attention.

Again, "something for everyone" is the best tagline an MMO can live up to, and XIV is definitely getting there. :)

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I mean, we've all concluded that mentioning healer/tank DPS outputs as the same as poking a hornet's nest, because it's supplementary to our main role.

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Hell, bring up a DPS' DPS is poking a hornet's nest lol.

- Learn the boss's patterns.
- Use Stone, Sky, Sea to check your dps.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I think the issue here is you do not know how to see what we are talking about in other players. For example, do you find it fair that someone can cheat the ilevel requirement to enter a place that requests ilevel 300 average, bringing a 285 weapon when you are given a 290 weapon from the job quest at 70?

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That's a loaded question, I think - if the game lets you do it, it's not cheating, and it's up to the devs to set different minimum requirements if that player shouldn't be there. Otherwise you'll get new people coming in with that equipment by honest mistake, having no idea there is a higher standard expected of them by other players than what the game itself has set.

I honestly haven't even paid attention to how long dungeons take. And I only notice other people doing strange things if it's out of combat (tank casting Convalescence at the start of the encounter when I'm healing; DPS running ahead when I'm tanking) or it's affecting me directly (debuffs not getting Esuna'd; tank makes the boss move unnecessarily while I try to melee it). In combat I'm too busy concentrating on my own actions to notice others' - and generally if I do, that means I'm not paying attention and my own performance is suffering, or I forgot to pay attention to something more important like my own HP bar. I'm only just getting the hang of watching the enemy's cast bar and not just looking for floor AoE markers.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No idea where Elemental data center is, but shame I do not know anyone there. I def know people that can have a general idea how you are doing without a parser though.

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Elemental data centre is in Japan. (I'm from Australia.) I guess I could see if some of my FC friends are using parsers.

Also I only thought of it after my previous post, but I'm leveling astrologian currently, and when I get low-level dungeons with that I'm probably playing 90% DPS outside of boss battles. So Scholar's faerie just fills in that little gap. (And I guess Tam-Tara in particular doesn't really have mid-dungeon boss battles? Just those imp mobs and then the Soulcounters which aren't that tough.) Ultimately those early dungeons are built for the difficulty level of someone who could have not even played a game before, or only started this one yesterday, and it's fair enough that a practiced player can do it with minimal effort by comparison.

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- Learn the boss's patterns.
- Use Stone, Sky, Sea to check your dps.

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People have to understand that current SSS dummy is NOT enough for meeting a dps check in real fights. Here's some reason I can come up with atm:

1. You lose GCD when you are solely doing mechanics. Missing 1 GCD for let's say 25 mechanics for a 10 minutes fight, That is around 10% dps loss which lead you from 4k to 3.6k dps (let's be real if your not pressing GCD you won't be pressing oGCD either so this is fairly true). Not to mention there are so much more mechanics in a fight. Uptime is the basic of getting good dps but doing SSS dummy doesn't teach you that.

2. SSS dummy is not tuned good enough. For example for O4S dummy, NIN one requires almost same dps as MNK's, while in fact NIN are 100 to 300 behind MNK depends on how bad the fight is for MNK. Same thing goes to MCH's and SMN's. Their required dps are much lower than it should be because both class received several buffs. AND this still happens on Shinryu EX's dummy where NIN is on par with MNK and SMN/MCH are still undertuned heavily.

3. Fights aren't even gated behind SSS. Plus the players know they're lacking and do the dummy are usually not the problem in the party. At least won't be for long because they are likely to improve shortly.

4. SSS dummy fight is too short where RNG is heavily involved and there are specific rotations to clear it easier but won't benefit you in the real fight.

But I think SSS might do just fine if it is well tuned and requires you to dodge mechanics.

Edit: post limit

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Part of the issue, too, is the vocal group of players that claw about for harder and harder content despite it blocking off the casual playerbase. But we can't think of the casuals as the one's who just spam 2 or 3 skills without a care. That's not the average player. And anyone into FFXIV enough to use the forum isn't a "casual" player either. We need to keep that in mind.

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Did you not read what we've been repeatedly saying in this thread? Noone is asking to "block off" the casuals. We're asking for difficulty to gradually increase as we level up, thus slowly leading us up to endgame level, as in expert dungeons. ex trials and savage should remain optional, but people should generally be closer to being ready for that kind of stuff, when they hit max lvl. We're asking for bosses to do mechanics that actually matter and you have to execute instead of ignoring them.
I feel there should be a general order of things that lead you into savage raids if you wish to do it. Leveling dungeons < max lvl dungeons (end of mandatory stuff) < story mode 8 man raid < 24 man < ex trials < savage. But since they opened all the restrictions on them, basically everyone can just jump into high end content, without being ready for it, which leads to frustration on both sides, the player not ready failing and/or getting kicked and the players who are actually ready getting the feeling the playerbase got worse, when they actually just were poorly prepared for the content they attempted.

All that would do is just make endgame even more barren than it is now. Savage isn't fun for the playerbase, when will people get this through their heads? trying to funnel people into it by making the game harder is helping no one; it just means instead of not doing endgame, people wont bother to reach it. Ugh, farming ex trials is tedious and boring, you want to make expert a similar pain?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Ugh, farming ex trials is tedious and boring, you want to make expert a similar pain?

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Expert is already boring, so they're already similar.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Expert is already boring, so they're already similar.

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I don't have to spend ages in party finder hoping that one person doesn't wipe the group, and we disband. I'm not restricted to playing only one job because my ilvl is too low on the others, and I can't practice it (because expert is the only real place to practice a 70 job in a decent settin, short of story raids, and we all know thats next on the chopping block). EX trials are tedious jokes, and many people just wait to overgear them if they do them. No one will do that for hard expert, theyd just make pvp the number one activity to get tomes.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I don't have to spend ages in party finder hoping that one person doesn't wipe the group, and we disband. I'm not restricted to playing only one job because my ilvl is too low on the others, and I can't practice it (because expert is the only real place to practice a 70 job in a decent settin, short of story raids, and we all know thats next on the chopping block). EX trials are tedious jokes, and many people just wait to overgear them if they do them. No one will do that for hard expert, theyd just make pvp the number one activity to get tomes.

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I was simply making a joke that expert is already boring as it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

All that would do is just make endgame even more barren than it is now. Savage isn't fun for the playerbase, when will people get this through their heads? trying to funnel people into it by making the game harder is helping no one; it just means instead of not doing endgame, people wont bother to reach it. Ugh, farming ex trials is tedious and boring, you want to make expert a similar pain?

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We're not trying to funnel people into it, it's entirely optional. And saying it's boring is a generalisation, for me it's the most fun thing to do and I know a lot of others who think the same. To me, Pvp is the most boring thing, but I don't tell people who like it to remove it just cause I'm not enjoying it, to each their own

Again NOONE IS ASKING FOR PERFECTION, just a general knowledge of your class and the willingness to improve and contribute would be appreciated.

People already have this enough to complete virtually all casual content without a problem. The only complaints tend to be from ex primal and savage farm parties. No one is saying "darn, I can't finish drowned city because people don't know their class." Casual content is fine, so why all the fuss about parsing and making it harder so people to learn their class? It's all about savage and ex stuff at heart; the raiders want stuff harder overall and they want more people doing it, because they have much worse experiences with others in it than casuals do with others in casual content.

it gets old honestly.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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It's not about that, well a bit maybe, but not solely. I agree we don't need parsers for anything below ex primals, even if I'd still like to have some feedback on my performance early on, as I'm always trying to be as good as I can possibly be.

It's about people getting to max lvl and having no clue how their class actually works. Cause there are no mechanics early on that require them to use their skillset effectively. The content is so easy the others just carry them through and they never realise they're not even performing to minimal standards.
That's how you end up in expert dungeon with the no-CD-tank or the no-song-Brd or the infamous ice mage.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

People already have this enough to complete virtually all casual content without a problem. The only complaints tend to be from ex primal and savage farm parties. No one is saying "darn, I can't finish drowned city because people don't know their class." Casual content is fine, so why all the fuss about parsing and making it harder so people to learn their class? It's all about savage and ex stuff at heart; the raiders want stuff harder overall and they want more people doing it, because they have much worse experiences with others in it than casuals do with others in casual content.

it gets old honestly.

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The exact problem of too much casual content,is that people don't get sharp,and when they arrive in savage,its WOUBALADIWOOP time.
And then they cry that people don't accept their performance,their performance that are "enough" in casual content,but,by magic,is not enough in raid.
The main point,that everyone is saying,is that by setting too easy content all the way to lvl 70 with NO way to know if you're good or not,you end up 70,with a class you are far to master,and people exclude you because of poor performance.

I know that FF is a game,you're here for fun etc...BUT,never forget there is 7 other personn with you,and just because you don't give a flying fuck mean you will ruin the fun of the other,Even if its a game,Savage require lot of concentration and commitment, and THAT,will never change,or you're ready to sacrifice your time ti improve yourself to get ready for it,or step out of it .

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

<snip>

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Where in the hell did you come up with this crap?

Seriously....where is your source....this is a very bad troll in poor taste.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

All that would do is just make endgame even more barren than it is now. Savage isn't fun for the playerbase, when will people get this through their heads? trying to funnel people into it by making the game harder is helping no one; it just means instead of not doing endgame, people wont bother to reach it. Ugh, farming ex trials is tedious and boring, you want to make expert a similar pain?

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Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.

Honestly, the comments you are replying to are not suggesting starting taking things up to Savage mode immediately. No, it shouldn't be that way. But after story content, Hard mode dungeons should actually feel like hard mode dungeons. At this time, the Aurum Vale, Pharos Sirius, and Stone Vigil in their current iterations have more challenge to them than say, Shisui of the Violent Tides (don't get me wrong, i love this dungeon). Yes, level sync plays a role in them, but they're still challenging because you can't faceroll them easily with PUGs. But the content does need to start getting harder, to encourage and prepare players to go into Savage fights.

Hard mode dungeons are optional - so gradually make them harder. It isn't like players don't have the tools to survive. But at some point, the casual player base needs to start stepping up their game. As much as Yoshi P and the devs try to close the skill gap, it won't happen as long as players continue to get by with faceroll content. You could give players the same hotbars that PVP has, and you'll still find that one BLM who only uses Thunder, or that RDM who somehow finds a way to only hardcast Verthunder.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.Hard mode dungeons are optional - so gradually make them harder. It isn't like players don't have the tools to survive. But at some point, the casual player base needs to start stepping up their game. As much as Yoshi P and the devs try to close the skill gap, it won't happen as long as players continue to get by with faceroll content. You could give players the same hotbars that PVP has, and you'll still find that one BLM who only uses Thunder, or that RDM who somehow finds a way to only hardcast Verthunder.

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As he said,at some point,dev can try to close the gap,but if casual( and by casual,i mean people who and do an effort and complain they are kicked out of hard content) people dont make an effort,its pointless and we will end up with a tasteless game

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Where in the hell did you come up with this crap?

Seriously....where is your source....this is a very bad troll in poor taste.

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How is he a troll when his point is actually pretty frighteningly accurate?

Take the 165 dps blm (Not afk, not perma dead, not lagging) from earlier. At what point is the game telling them that their performance is unacceptable? They've gotten their Rabanastre clear, they've gotten at least two bits of loot. In the run that I encountered them in, they didn't even get kicked over that DPS, it took them repeatedly running Rofocale's chariot right to the far edge of the arena before people had enough of it.

Cases like this are all the source material you'll ever need.

I should upload the video of it as it's quite something to watch =(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip(

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please upload it,i wanna laugh,and since people always ask for proof or didnt happen,show them that sometimes,people dont give a fuck and rely too much on others

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Wrong...Savage isn't fun for you.

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Savage at best has under 10% completion, and at worst 1% on most NA servers if you count the whole history of it. people don't even bother recruiting fresh 70s to try it, like in other games; in FFXI as soon as you hit 70 people often invited you to do Sky. You either try to do it with random strangers, or you advertise in PF hoping some static will pick you up and its not too late in the raid cycle to try. If you look in your data center's PF, you can often find one or no learning parties for each turn. The amount of salt over it is epic. You can tell me its fun all you want, but if you take a hard look in game, its obviously not.

Trying to make the rest of the game like it in baby steps is just going to make it more of a pain.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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If you are going to post numbers, link a source. All you are doing right now is saying numbers without evidence. I can easily do that. 75% of all players who have entered Shinryu Ex have cleared at least once. Is it true? Probably not. Won't matter without evidence to prove it. I didn't mention anything about me saying it is fun...in fact, I pointedly said that you in particular don't find it fun. I didn't realize that you spoke for the majority of the player base. I never made any mention on my level of enjoyment for those fights.

PS: For the record, I do find the fights fun...just to clear that up.

Do tell how the game that progressively gets tougher in completely optional Hard Mode dungeons is going to make it more of a pain. I'd love to hear the details of how fun and utterly asinine it would be to actually get players to start playing at level 70 content (lvl 80 in a couple years, likely). You know, just as how you would progress in normal FF games...or even in other MMOs.

Uploading now, I'll try to link it on my lunchbreak =o

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

people don't even bother recruiting fresh 70s to try it, like in other games; in FFXI as soon as you hit 70 people often invited you to do Sky. You either try to do it with random strangers, or you advertise in PF hoping some static will pick you up and its not too late in the raid cycle to try.

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Doesn't this tally up with the fact that most fresh 70's simply couldn't get anywhere in it? I don't think people are asking for dungeons to mimic the difficulty of savage, rather that dungeon bosses should be used as an introduction to the sorts of mechanics that people will face later on as well as giving them some hints about what'll happen if they simply ignore them.

It's already been done, Amdapor Keep used this trick beautifully at ARR's launch.

You can find clear numbers via lucky bancho's census, can search for that and it will lead you to reddit posts about it, since its a JP blog. They are snapshots of clears at specific times, based on how many people have the minion on lodestone. You can generally tell by participation who finds it fun. As for optional, ugh...the hall of the novice is optional, and that teaches you the basics of your job. I doubt people here want it optional, they want it mandatory.

I personally think that the simplicity of the DPS role in earlier content is okay. Both tanking and healing can be daunting roles for new players, so I think it's fine that there's a low-pressure option to complete the main story with.

I always felt like the job quests should be more instructional. For open world objectives, they often make you use a certain ability that you already have, just to learn another as a reward. Also, I've found a lot of the job quest solo duties would've been easier with the spell I learned afterwards. I feel like the "duty action" would be really helpful here. Make the new ability a duty action, and teach the player how to use it in the solo duty. They could also be more challenging. I think it would be more fun if there was a real chance of failing the duty in ways other than simply not reading the instructions. This would improve player skill without embarrassing the player in a public setting and completely redesigning instanced group content.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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Right...based on the minions...do you know how bloody hard it is just to get the doggy from Susano Ex? Lucky Bancho does boast impressive numbers...but that is in no way representative of the final tally. You can't just use quote this census as the one piece of evidence, which pulls clear rates based on how many people have a minion. The omega normal raids themselves only have 1 (one) mount, that that comes from O4. If I recall correctly, it's the same with O4S. And you are not guaranteed those mounts, you usually have to run those fights multiple times just to finally outroll other players. So that assessment that 10% of the player base have cleared it is completely wrong. I myself have not cleared O4S...doesn't mean I don't raid in Savage, I just haven't cleared that one fight which is O4S.

As for optional...I guess asking players in dungeons with the title 'Hard Mode' is asking too much, eh? Why challenge something even remotely difficult, like just a step-up from faceroll content, when players should be able to get by through hard mode dungeons as they do story mode dungeons, amirite?

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Sorry...a little passive aggressive this morning. But hey, question for you. Were you amongst the crowd that thought Shinryu on Normal was too much for a story boss? I really should've just asked that question a couple posts ago.

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its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

its ok, this is just forum posting. I feel he was a big step up from nidhogg hard, and honestly, he is; just compare the add phases for example. When I beat him at i290, he was comparable to Hashmal imo, and I went back and spammed that stupid trial as healer so I could carry others through it. My main worry is that he sets a pretty high benchmark for trial difficulty this early in the expansion, and that he is actually an example of what you all want; normal content to be harder. Most people were too busy rah rahing that to realize how many ppl were abandoning it at the intended ilvl.

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And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty. People had been able to faceroll everything up to this point and suddenly they're thrown into a fight with adequate challenge for their level.

If the dungeons leading up to him had become progressively more challenging, thus helping people get used to what's required of them, I do believe the whining for nerfs would have been far less. And you wouldn't have had to "carry" your friends, as they would have been able to carry their own weight.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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Eh..nah, it might be that I'm starting to get a little too excited and loose with the multiple threads I've been responding to lately haha. Not quite the level-headed person I was called a week ago xD

Plus, I'm pretty positive that I'm going to hit my daily soon enough.

I don't mind Shinryu being the benchmark for how difficult a story mode should be. I mean, it's freakin' Shinryu. Yes, he should be a challenge. However, I strongly do believe that hard mode dungeons should start gradually going up in difficulty. Those three dungeons I mentioned a little bit ago were, in my opinion, a pretty good start, even when nerfed. No hard mode dungeon should approach the level of savage difficulty...but I don't think it's too hard to ask for players to slowly step up their game as they go through the hard modes. And I don't mean by harder hitting adds, either. Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.

The Minion from Savage and normal mode are the same...
You can just asume on the base of the mount, that drops every kill, but not everyone who has the kill has the mount.

And yeah, Shinryu Normal was a well tuned fight. All you needed was a basic knowledge of your job. If you have done the ARR primals you can feel lucky to know a little how the special attacks work if not you can figure it out from the elemental name or from the effect. Nothing really special about it.
The only ones with real drawbacks were the new players using leveljumps, they couldn't know this all, but they can figure it out easyly.
But mostly you just hear "This sh*t is to hard to facerole and shouldn't gate people from endgame!" but if you didn't do your jobquest and didn't care to learn a just a bit higher tuned fight like this you aren't ready for the "endgame".

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

And why did he feel harsh at that level and made people abandon duty?
Because there was no step up to that difficulty..

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You can't step up to it and make dungeons fun. By the time we hit 70, bosses would be oneshotting everyone, take ten minutes each, all be on platforms with KB for instakills, and probably have some form of enrage. Shin was an ex trial scaled down more than an easy boss scaled up. Shin has more unique mechanics than O1S ffs.

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Some mechanics that are exclusive to bosses should be brought down to mob levels, so long as the mobs don't go up to crazy high levels where players can wall to wall pull.

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Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

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And yeah, Shinryu Normal was a well tuned fight. All you needed was a basic knowledge of your job.

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Oh, bull. They had to nerf it slightly because so many people got murdered during the add phase by being a hair away from the corner. Many of the mechanics were faster and hit harder than most fights to date, and some even changed; the center circle aoe could be followed by a stack marker or a levinbolt, which is something not many casual content did. People got murdered by misjudging running to the safe corner of the line aoe by a second. If SE had kept their old policy of "you fall off the platform you are out of the whole fight" we'd all be screaming for nerfs. Diabolos Hollow or a12n was nowhere near as bad, and the latter stopped time.

This is why i never trust raiders, everything is easy for them

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Go do POTD floor 130+ and come back and tell me how much fun that is. cause those mobs do that, and you only pull one of them. Now imagine a dungeon full of them where you have to pull 3 at a time.

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Bad luck prevents me from reaching that level :(

I mean, obviously, the number of enemies if this i introduced have to be lowered. Heck, I would love to do a dungeon run (just one...wouldn't want to give the devs ideas or get a parser thing started for this one dungeon) where it's just 3 enemies. Someone (I think IGN) mentioned something like Doomtrain - I like the thought of having to traverse a dungeon where you are constantly in danger of being killed from lagging behind. Just one though, and completely optional in hard mode.

The issue I see in this entire thought is, if the game sets everyone up to fail, how do some succeed? From what I gained from the OP they state that the game basically throws you off the deep end at a certain point in the game, and that everyone drowns. But thats not the case. Not everyone drowns.

The main issue in games today is people seem to expect the game to hold their hand through the entire experience, never letting the player figure things out on their own. Look at FFXV, you can go through the entire game pressing only 1 button. Thats not a game.

People who think that just because you work you can't learn/devote any time to a game is just as wrong. People have devoted time and learned new things while working for decades.Games aren't like movies they are supposed to be a form of entertainment that you actively engage with and shape as you go. In a multiplayer game you should devote some time to actually learning how to play at a somewhat decent level.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Without it, we're wandering out into the DF completely unprepared, setting us up for the most toxic experience this game has to offer, and that's exactly what you're trying to avoid. :\

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I really wonder about players who make statements like this. Toxic is the last thing I'd use to describe my experience in DF, and I have been playing for over two years. Most of the time things go smoothly and it's very uneventful. A lot of this post reeks of gross exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Veliena

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*thumbs up*

Couldn't have said it better myself.